Rinnegan Sasuke vs SM Hashirama

[LuckyMan]

Just out of curiosity, who believes/thinks that Sasuke Uchiha can use Ameno to warp someone's heart, brain, lung, etc out of their body?

 

[solorflare99]

Because it does not follow the same principle as Kamui which is required to warp the outer portions first, instead it allows him to warp any visual targeted object in an instant.​

Anything that can warp space and time can detach a heart from it's arteries.

Your answer to this question will be the final resolve:

If the Sharingan can see through an arm which is comprised many various atom's and molecules, A solid tree [

You must be registered for see links

] that is comprised of many various atoms and molecules; putting personal feeling aside would you agree that it could likewise see through the many various atoms and molecules which comprise a coating of armor? ​

@blue Yet Sasuke hasn't shown that he is capable of doing so.

You: Ad ignorantiam
Ok, ok. Since I respect you, I will expand upon it further.

@blue Yet Sasuke hasn't shown that he is capable of doing so, Ameno is a specific attack set in a fictional universe where everything is dictated by the author, logical or not. I get that you are saying I'm committing a fallacy, but the problem I have with you, Is that I'm trying to come to the conclusion of what would happen if Sasuke and Hashirama would be like given their Universe and what action had and would most likely take place. Not Sasuke vs Hashirama and what action would, could, and should.

To answer your question.

Well your taking two separate feats and putting them together in hopes it would produce what you hope to happen, but the what takes place in each feate can conflict with each other. Sasuke looks through the wall and sees a figure comprised mostly of chakra, while in another all he is seeing is a good view of his blood stream, but not the chakra. It could be that he sees the snake specifically because of it's chakra and not because he superb X ray vision, while in the other scan it is because he focusing on his arm giving him X ray vision with small range. We know that in both instances he is concentrating and that concentrating can produce different/separate results. In one instance his Xray vision is great but only apllies to chakra, and inanother has weaker Xray vision but isn't limited to chakra.

 

[KeyofDestiny]

Just out of curiosity, who believes/thinks that Sasuke Uchiha can use Ameno to warp someone's heart, brain, lung, etc out of their body?

Waltz. But I'm sure you could've guessed that.

 

[Waltz]

@blue Yet Sasuke hasn't shown that he is capable of doing so.

You: Ad ignorantiam
Ok, ok. Since I respect you, I will expand upon it further.

@blue Yet Sasuke hasn't shown that he is capable of doing so, Ameno is a specific attack set in a fictional universe where everything is dictated by the author, logical or not. I get that you are saying I'm committing a fallacy, but the problem I have with you, Is that I'm trying to come to the conclusion of what would happen if Sasuke and Hashirama would be like given their Universe and what action had and would most likely take place. Not Sasuke vs Hashirama and what action would, could, and should.

To answer your question.

Well your taking two separate feats and putting them together in hopes it would produce what you hope to happen, but the what takes place in each feate can conflict with each other. Sasuke looks through the wall and sees a figure comprised mostly of chakra, while in another all he is seeing is a good view of his blood stream, but not the chakra. It could be that he sees the snake specifically because of it's chakra and not because he superb X ray vision, while in the other scan it is because he focusing on his arm giving him X ray vision with small range. We know that in both instances he is concentrating and that concentrating can produce different/separate results. In one instance his Xray vision is great but only apllies to chakra, and inanother has weaker Xray vision but isn't limited to chakra.

Likewise I respect your opinion as anyone else's.

Indeed it is dictated by the Author and on that note i'll expand this to you: There have been many times when the Author limits a characters abilities in order to progress the plot. For instance: Kakashi did not utilize Kamui against Deva path during there fight. Does that mean he did not possess the ability? No. It is simple: If Kakashi warped Deva's head at that point then the plot could not have progressed as the Author intended. However, within an actual debate pitting characters abilities against one another it is possible for Kakashi to warp Deva's head with Kamui. The argument : "Kakashi didn't warp Deva's head in the Manga" does not satisfy him not being able to do so in an actual confrontation where both parties possess all of their abilities. About the Sasuke and the Sharingan; I'm more inclined to believe that it was simply re-emphasizing the fact that the Sharingan can see Chakra and Chakra colour and not necessarily denouncing it's insight ability to see at the Cellular level. ​

 

[KingHashirama]

Kakashis kamui wouldve failed.

If sasuke was capable of that he woukdve done it and finished of naruto quick, especially since he was resorting to begging as a way to win.

He can see peoples inside like an xray... does that mean he can touch them? No.. not.unleas he cuts through the actual body

Furthermore there is no proof that it even works like kamui, meaning can take out organs and limbs. If sasuke did try to warp, itd warp hashirama himself as a whole.

 

[Varrah]

But there aren't ways to prove it nor disprove(without a doubt).

This can be done, but it's...never-mind.​

Which is the whole point of me not even discussing the argument.

Understood.​

To say I haven't proved it is false would be to imply that it has been proven true, which it has not.

I did not say you did not prove it; I said any comment that purports "when my claim is that it hasn't been shown and he has yet to show it." or something similar argues for the negative claim of the contradicting claim. In this case Waltz's. Again, while a person can do this, the lack of evidence for the contradicting claim, in this case Waltz's claim, does not constitute as sufficient evidence against it. If a person does indeed think the lack of evidence for the contradicting claim, again Waltz's claim, is sufficient enough to be count as evidence against the contradicting claim, again Waltz's claim, then that person has an argument from ignorance. If a person further goes on to say, like many others in this thread have done, that the contradicting claim, again Waltz's claim or Waltz in general, has the responsibility to disprove any comment that purports the contradicting claim or provide support for the contradicting claim then that person has violated the burden of proof construct in logic. This is what I said.

With respect to your comment it says "when my claim is that it hasn't been shown and he has yet to show it." This is an argument from ignorance because it uses the lack of evidence for the contradicting claim as evidence against the contradicting claim and it says that Waltz must provide support for the contradicting claim. This, as I mention before, violates the burden of proof construct in logic. If Waltz does not accept the responsibility to provide support for the his contradicting claim, you, and any others who think this way, would have to fallaciously assume that there is no evidence for the contradicting claim.

Now I am not saying anything is proved false, this is an entirely separated issue entirely, I am saying that you, and any others who think that the lack of evidence for Waltz's claim is evidence against it, is not logically sound because that requires the people who think this way to argue from ignorance.​

If I was doing this for points then maybe I'd take into consideration his argument, but I'm not.

I am unsure what doing for points means, but if you cannot take Waltz's argument into consideration because of this, then perhaps it is best if you and Waltz end your discussion.​

If I was then I would come up with not only why he is wrong but a counter to his statement but I wont. He I'm not here to prove him wrong, but to prove that he isn't right(hopefully you get what I mean).

If you can, you can. Everything you've posted thus far, however, does not prove that Waltz is not right. It merely purports that the lack of evidence for Waltz claim is evidence against it and as I said before is logically sound because it fallaciously assumes that there is no evidence for Waltz's claim. I understand what you mean.​

I don't debate fanfic. fanfic.

Okay.​

In the end we won't have an outcome that fits in the situation.

I think we can have an outcome if everyone is on the same page.​

It's not like it is one person debating one other, but an open debate on who would win.

Which is why I address everyone who had comments similar to "when my claim is that it hasn't been shown and he has yet to show it." —again, I think if everyone is on the same page, then coming to a conclusion on who wins is easy.​

We could have many different outcome but it gets to a point where it isn't even "Rinnegan Sasuke vs SM Hashirama" but two people with similar qualities to the respective characters.

Understood.​

There will never be a general agreement amongst the population.

Okay.​

That is what I strive for. Who would win between fighters in their stories.

Okay.​

Characters like Shikamaru use intelligence to keep up with other characters that physically outclass him.

As we have seen.​

That is taken away from him when you argue characters will due a certain feat based off fanfic.

I understand this, but your response to Waltz, and those that are similar, do not detract anything from his post. They merely purport the need for evidence while simultaneously being logically invalid. ​

 

[solorflare99]

Likewise I respect your opinion as anyone else's.

Indeed it is dictated by the Author and on that note i'll expand this to you: There have been many times when the Author limits a characters abilities in order to progress the plot. For instance: Kakashi did not utilize Kamui against Deva path during there fight. Does that mean he did not possess the ability? No. It is simple: If Kakashi warped Deva's head at that point then the plot could not have progressed as the Author intended. However, within an actual debate pitting characters abilities against one another it is possible for Kakashi to warp Deva's head with Kamui. The argument : "Kakashi didn't warp Deva's head in the Manga" does not satisfy him not being able to do so in an actual confrontation where both parties possess all of their abilities. About the Sasuke and the Sharingan; I'm more inclined to believe that it was simply re-emphasizing the fact that the Sharingan can see Chakra and Chakra colour and not necessarily denouncing it's insight ability to see at the Cellular level. ​

Yeah I agree Plot should be taken into consideration, but there is a difference between plot induced stupidity and character induced stupidity. For example a huge reason why A would lose a good amount of his fights is because he doesn't go V2 ration armor from the beginning of the fight. However this is still contribute to him losing even in debates like this because that is character induced stupidity. In my opinion a way to differentiate between the two is whether or not the character has even shown to be capable of doing an action or willing to do an action. If he has been shown or proven capable in a source material but doesn't do it, then that would Plot induced. If he is consistently unwilling then that is character induced. Sasuke hasn't been shown capable, but he would be willing, thus it would fall under neither category. This is why I don't even take it into consideration. In my opinion it would make sense that Kishimoto would intentionally have Ameno have limitation rather than limitate Sasuke's intelligence for the sake of plot. The attack would be way OP. Speaking of OP, law has an Devil fruit that works like Ameno, but Oda realizes how over powered a power like that is. So he established that any body part separated from the body does not injure the body. Off topic really but somewhat relatable example.

On topic about the sharingan vision discussion. If you want to use feat in the cave to support your argument that he can see all the to Hashirama's Heart then you have to take into consideration all that is going on. The difference far enough apart to call them different abilities.If you notice the only thing that is being seen past the rocks and pillars in the scan is the snake. Nothing else. There are obviously stalagmites behind the stalagmites in Sasuke's vision but those can't be seen only the snake. This is why I don't see this feat applying to theone where he is looking at the C4.

 

[RustledJimmies]

Still haven't past Gehrman on Bloodborne yet.​

Lol new gen feg.

OT: Sasuke teleports his brain away.

 

[Varrah]

Lol new gen feg.

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

 

[solorflare99]

This can be done, but it's...never-mind.​

Understood.​

I did not say you did not prove it; I said any comment that purports "when my claim is that it hasn't been shown and he has yet to show it." or something similar argues for the negative claim of the contradicting claim. In this case Waltz's. Again, while a person can do this, the lack of evidence for the contradicting claim, in this case Waltz's claim, does not constitute as sufficient evidence against it. If a person does indeed think the lack of evidence for the contradicting claim, again Waltz's claim, is sufficient enough to be count as evidence against the contradicting claim, again Waltz's claim, then that person has an argument from ignorance. If a person further goes on to say, like many others in this thread have done, that the contradicting claim, again Waltz's claim or Waltz in general, has the responsibility to disprove any comment that purports the contradicting claim or provide support for the contradicting claim then that person has violated the burden of proof construct in logic. This is what I said.

With respect to your comment it says "when my claim is that it hasn't been shown and he has yet to show it." This is an argument from ignorance because it uses the lack of evidence for the contradicting claim as evidence against the contradicting claim and it says that Waltz must provide support for the contradicting claim. This, as I mention before, violates the burden of proof construct in logic. If Waltz does not accept the responsibility to provide support for the his contradicting claim, you, and any others who think this way, would have to fallaciously assume that there is no evidence for the contradicting claim.

Now I am not saying anything is proved false, this is an entirely separated issue entirely, I am saying that you, and any others who think that the lack of evidence for Waltz's claim is evidence against it, is not logically sound because that requires the people who think this way to argue from ignorance.​

I am unsure what doing for points means, but if you cannot take Waltz's argument into consideration because of this, then perhaps it is best if you and Waltz end your discussion.​

If you can, you can. Everything you've posted thus far, however, does not prove that Waltz is not right. It merely purports that the lack of evidence for Waltz claim is evidence against it and as I said before is logically sound because it fallaciously assumes that there is no evidence for Waltz's claim. I understand what you mean.​

Okay.​

I think we can have an outcome if everyone is on the same page.​

Which is why I address everyone who had comments similar to "when my claim is that it hasn't been shown and he has yet to show it." —again, I think if everyone is on the same page, then coming to a conclusion on who wins is easy.​

Understood.​

Okay.​

Okay.​

As we have seen.​

I understand this, but your response to Waltz, and those that are similar, do not detract anything from his post. They merely purport the need for evidence while simultaneously being logically invalid. ​

But it can't(it could with proof but there is none.)

I understand that I am committing a fallacy. No matter what I will still say it. While I begin by proposing that his argument is false because it hasn't been proving true, it is only because he proposing something that hasn't been proven true. To most people this doesn't matter and will understand from the start. But your acting as if that is the only thing I am basing it off. I also explained that two things would have to be proven in order to make this claim true. Neither have been proven true and it only takes one being false for his claim to be false. It wasn't going to happen after one single post. I never claimed that it was logical, but only said to gain common ground with the general audience. I can be logically invalid but as long as I get to my point I don't care. To nag excessively about that would be a red herring if I already got to my point.

Concluding that the truth value of an argument is false based on the fact that the argument contains a fallacy.

Having an outcome because everyone is on the same page accomplishes nothing.

The ad populum fallacy is the appeal to the popularity of a claim as a reason for accepting it.

We can all agree that Sasuke can teleport his heart out, but Their can easily be some kind of interview or any primary source that can be released afterwards, that proves us wrong, thus we weren't right to begin with.

If all you're trying to do explain to me that my argument is illogical then don't waste your time as I already know. 99% arguments on this forum are Illogic outside of more formal debates. This is an open debate I'm not going to be very logical, but I do write my post with the intent of being logical in future post if I have to.

 

[Varrah]

Concluding that the truth value of an argument is false based on the fact that the argument contains a fallacy.

A truth value was never concluded for any argument: it was only said that your comment and others like it would have to fallaciously act in certain ways to omit Waltz's claim. ​

Having an outcome because everyone is on the same page accomplishes nothing.

The ad populum fallacy is the appeal to the popularity of a claim as a reason for accepting it.

I am saying that coming to a conclusion on certain matters may be easier if everyone is working on the same information; I am not saying that those conclusions are to be taken as certain and unchangeable. I understand the rest of your post.​

 

[Waltz]

Yeah I agree Plot should be taken into consideration, but there is a difference between plot induced stupidity and character induced stupidity. For example a huge reason why A would lose a good amount of his fights is because he doesn't go V2 ration armor from the beginning of the fight. However this is still contribute to him losing even in debates like this because that is character induced stupidity.

@Bold: True but that is the same line as reasoning I gave with Kakashi, that a Character may not use their most powerful technique at key points in a battle as it is necessary for the plot to roll forward in a particular direction. However I disagree with the last portion that: Beacause Ay, doesn't use Raiton V2 at the initial points of a battle that he is also unable to do so in an actual deabate----due to the fact----A debate can be given stipulations or conditions that Ay begins in Raiton V2; which in turn denounces the notion. ​

In my opinion a way to differentiate between the two is whether or not the character has even shown to be capable of doing an action or willing to do an action. If he has been shown or proven capable in a source material but doesn't do it, then that would Plot induced. If he is consistently unwilling then that is character induced. Sasuke hasn't been shown capable, but he would be willing, thus it would fall under neither category. This is why I don't even take it into consideration. In my opinion it would make sense that Kishimoto would intentionally have Ameno have limitation rather than limitate Sasuke's intelligence for the sake of plot. The attack would be way OP. Speaking of OP, law has an Devil fruit that works like Ameno, but Oda realizes how over powered a power like that is. So he established that any body part separated from the body does not injure the body. Off topic really but somewhat relatable example.

When it comes to the Manga (story) I don't think that such a thing as "Character induced Stupidity" exists because as you also agreed, the Manga is dictated by the Author and he makes the Character's of the story act and think in whatever way he pleases----that is of course----necessary for the plot to continue in direction intended. ​

On topic about the sharingan vision discussion. If you want to use feat in the cave to support your argument that he can see all the to Hashirama's Heart then you have to take into consideration all that is going on. The difference far enough apart to call them different abilities.If you notice the only thing that is being seen past the rocks and pillars in the scan is the snake. Nothing else. There are obviously stalagmites behind the stalagmites in Sasuke's vision but those can't be seen only the snake. This is why I don't see this feat applying to theone where he is looking at the C4.s.

I was simply asking a question. I agree that they are different abilities as seeing chakra is not the same as having a visual at the cellular level but they both belong to the Sharingan----which Sasuke possesses, which was my point. I was simply saying that in the cave, the Author may have choosen to highlight the Sharingan's ability to see chakra as it may have been more suitable for the situation. ​

 

[Kagustuchi]

So, so much cancer in this thread. I only left for a day :T_T: I'm still trying to get my Amaterasu bnb down on UmvC3

Just out of curiosity, who believes/thinks that Sasuke Uchiha can use Ameno to warp someone's heart, brain, lung, etc out of their body?

The same people that think you can beat the Third Raikage by stabbing him in the eye.

 

[ARGUS]

Well you can swap yourself with the raikages heart and he will obviously die
Plus I'm pretty sure a kunai can pierce him so a kunai slash to the neck GG

And against hashirama we should also consider that Amaterasu one shots his entire arsenal
Bcz Amaterasu Isn't even fire

 

[Haizaki]

Bad example since Gai and Lee were clearly aiming to hit at the same exact time. Naruto and Sasuke tracked him individually, and both attacked individually yet they reacted and struck at the same exact time. Equal reaction speed is needed for that.



DB 4.

True point I didn't consider. Got caught slippin smh...Though I still believe a better way to determine their reactions would be based on how they react when attacked but you have a point though.

I'm not good when it comes to scaling all these big tier opponents but from what I recall which though I'm not sure why was the reason. Sasuke with half of the Sages chakra could not react to this

You must be registered for see links

while BSM Naruto with half of the Rikudou's chakra could react to it

You must be registered for see links

Removing that Rikudou chakra, I'm presuming we'll have an ordinary BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke? Correct? If so then why exactly should they be equal in reaction speed?

None of the Shinobi got a speed boost from Naruto's cloak, and he never had Senjutsu to begin with. Only his Susanoo did.

....? You can't possibly be saying no one got a physical boost from the KCC since speed falls in that category...No one showed a speed boost but there's every indication that the Kyuubi's chakra gives such a boost.

Just like when Killer B accesses his own V1 state, he gets a boost...V2, he gets a bigger boost. V1 Naruto should obviosuly be faster than Base Naruto because he has a chakra to enhance his bodily movement.

And don't mention Naruto getting a massive speed boost every time he uses the cloak, because I could use the same logic and say that he should get that same dramatic strength boost whenever he uses KCM, but no such thing has ever been shown for him. All of the cloaks enhancements were highlighted in the chapters they were shown in, and all that was shown was:

Irrelevant because the KCC gives an overall boost in power..

-Defense when Naruto is controlling the chakra.
-Massive boost in power.

Yes..? Not to mention asides that if he should have gotten a boost since it alters the ability of the eyes like Kakashi's improved Kamui in KCC. Also, it was said that Kakashi's eye ability in which precognition falls under was stronger upon getting the Rikodou's chakra..The Kyyubi cchakra is stronger than his ordinary state so logically his eye ability should be boosted upon getting the KCC. Same for Sasuke.

If there was a boost, it's pretty much unnoticeable, so that'd still put their reactions on the same tier.

If there was a boost it would obviously mean Sasuke was improved to a level he never was...Hence they can't have the same reaction speed because one was obviously enhanced either way.

Besides, the cloak wasn't even on him during chapter 650.

Must have been an error or something ..He had it previously while inside Susanoo and Naruto still left his cloak on everyone else. He also had Senjutsu to boost his Susanoo.

Sasuke might be able to track but it's still the speed in which he reacts that matter. In this case his reaction speed landed at the same time as Naruto but the medium he used was enhanced hence that medium would act much faster since Susanoo is a manifestation of his chakra...In this case, an enhanced chakra which would act faster.

 

[Kagustuchi]

True point I didn't consider. Got caught slippin smh...Though I still believe a better way to determine their reactions would be based on how they react when attacked but you have a point though.

I'm not good when it comes to scaling all these big tier opponents but from what I recall which though I'm not sure why was the reason. Sasuke with half of the Sages chakra could not react to this

You must be registered for see links

while BSM Naruto with half of the Rikudou's chakra could react to it

You must be registered for see links

Removing that Rikudou chakra, I'm presuming we'll have an ordinary BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke? Correct? If so then why exactly should they be equal in reaction speed?




....? You can't possibly be saying no one got a physical boost from the KCC since speed falls in that category...No one showed a speed boost but there's every indication that the Kyuubi's chakra gives such a boost.

Just like when Killer B accesses his own V1 state, he gets a boost...V2, he gets a bigger boost. V1 Naruto should obviosuly be faster than Base Naruto because he has a chakra to enhance his bodily movement.



Irrelevant because the KCC gives an overall boost in power..



Yes..? Not to mention asides that if he should have gotten a boost since it alters the ability of the eyes like Kakashi's improved Kamui in KCC. Also, it was said that Kakashi's eye ability in which precognition falls under was stronger upon getting the Rikodou's chakra..The Kyyubi cchakra is stronger than his ordinary state so logically his eye ability should be boosted upon getting the KCC. Same for Sasuke.




If there was a boost it would obviously mean Sasuke was improved to a level he never was...Hence they can't have the same reaction speed because one was obviously enhanced either way.



Must have been an error or something ..He had it previously while inside Susanoo and Naruto still left his cloak on everyone else. He also had Senjutsu to boost his Susanoo.

Sasuke might be able to track but it's still the speed in which he reacts that matter. In this case his reaction speed landed at the same time as Naruto but the medium he used was enhanced hence that medium would act much faster since Susanoo is a manifestation of his chakra...In this case, an enhanced chakra which would act faster.

They scale down to BM Naruto and EMS Sasuke. Hagormo's chakra already acts as Senjutsu, that's why Naruto can enter SM without gathering Nature energy.

Saw KG said that Naruto didn't get a dramatic boost to his strength, Naruto did in fact. He was crushing large chunks of stone with his normal grip strength and held off the Yonbi's Jaw.

 

[Haizaki]

They scale down to BM Naruto and EMS Sasuke. Hagormo's chakra already acts as Senjutsu, that's why Naruto can enter SM without gathering Nature energy.

Oh that's even better...Which means BM Naruto even has better reactions than him.

Saw KG said that Naruto didn't get a dramatic boost to his strength, Naruto did in fact. He was crushing large chunks of stone with his normal grip strength and held off the Yonbi's Jaw.

Exactly...Didn't even look at that because I thought that point was irrelevant to the main thing which was said.

 

[KeyofDestiny]

They scale down to BM Naruto and EMS Sasuke. Hagormo's chakra already acts as Senjutsu, that's why Naruto can enter SM without gathering Nature energy.

Saw KG said that Naruto didn't get a dramatic boost to his strength, Naruto did in fact. He was crushing large chunks of stone with his normal grip strength and held off the Yonbi's Jaw.

Not physical strength bruh. I'm talking about the dramatic ninjutsu boost that the others got when they got the v1 cloak.

True point I didn't consider. Got caught slippin smh...Though I still believe a better way to determine their reactions would be based on how they react when attacked but you have a point though.

I'm not good when it comes to scaling all these big tier opponents but from what I recall which though I'm not sure why was the reason. Sasuke with half of the Sages chakra could not react to this

You must be registered for see links

while BSM Naruto with half of the Rikudou's chakra could react to it

You must be registered for see links

Removing that Rikudou chakra, I'm presuming we'll have an ordinary BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke? Correct? If so then why exactly should they be equal in reaction speed?

DA has answered this question.

....? You can't possibly be saying no one got a physical boost from the KCC since speed falls in that category...No one showed a speed boost but there's every indication that the Kyuubi's chakra gives such a boost.

Just like when Killer B accesses his own V1 state, he gets a boost...V2, he gets a bigger boost. V1 Naruto should obviosuly be faster than Base Naruto because he has a chakra to enhance his bodily movement.

Except this cloak has far different properties than Naruto and B's cloak. I can use this logic and say that Naruto should get an over 6x boost to all his Ninjutsu just like all the Shinobi alliance did when they obtained his chakra, yet Naruto's Ninjutsu does not get a boost anywhere close to what they got.

Irrelevant because the KCC gives an overall boost in power..

No, it was shown to dramatically power up Ninjutsu. All it's abilities were highlighted and speed wasn't one of them.

Yes..? Not to mention asides that if he should have gotten a boost since it alters the ability of the eyes like Kakashi's improved Kamui in KCC. Also, it was said that Kakashi's eye ability in which precognition falls under was stronger upon getting the Rikodou's chakra..The Kyyubi cchakra is stronger than his ordinary state so logically his eye ability should be boosted upon getting the KCC. Same for Sasuke.

Unrelated to speed, his precog getting a boost from Rikudo's Chakra is irrelevant because Rikudo's Chakra is not Kyuubi's chakra. Kyuubi's chakra increased his Kamui's power only, don't compare it to the boost in overall Dojutsu prowess that Kakashi got.

If there was a boost it would obviously mean Sasuke was improved to a level he never was...Hence they can't have the same reaction speed because one was obviously enhanced either way.

If it was a massive boost then yes. If not, then my point still stands as the gap is not large.

Must have been an error or something ..He had it previously while inside Susanoo and Naruto still left his cloak on everyone else. He also had Senjutsu to boost his Susanoo.

Susanoo is irrelevant. Doubt it was an error. But you could have a point here.

Sasuke might be able to track but it's still the speed in which he reacts that matter. In this case his reaction speed landed at the same time as Naruto but the medium he used was enhanced hence that medium would act much faster since Susanoo is a manifestation of his chakra...In this case, an enhanced chakra which would act faster.

Don't care about the medium. All I care about is Sasuke's mental reaction, and his Susanoo's speed does not affect that.

Oh that's even better...Which means BM Naruto even has better reactions than him.

You do realize that makes zero sense right? That'd mean that they were equal or on par at best. Not that Naruto would be superior.

 

[bowflex]

Waltz. But I'm sure you could've guessed that.

Likewise I respect your opinion as anyone else's.

Indeed it is dictated by the Author and on that note i'll expand this to you: There have been many times when the Author limits a characters abilities in order to progress the plot. For instance: Kakashi did not utilize Kamui against Deva path during there fight. Does that mean he did not possess the ability? No. It is simple: If Kakashi warped Deva's head at that point then the plot could not have progressed as the Author intended. However, within an actual debate pitting characters abilities against one another it is possible for Kakashi to warp Deva's head with Kamui. The argument : "Kakashi didn't warp Deva's head in the Manga" does not satisfy him not being able to do so in an actual confrontation where both parties possess all of their abilities. About the Sasuke and the Sharingan; I'm more inclined to believe that it was simply re-emphasizing the fact that the Sharingan can see Chakra and Chakra colour and not necessarily denouncing it's insight ability to see at the Cellular level. ​

Lol new gen feg.

OT: Sasuke teleports his brain away.

come check my thread guys.

 

[Haizaki]

DA has answered this question.

So taking Hagoromo's chakra of both parties, it means that Naruto has superior reactions from what that Kaguya's scenario showed right? What did you deduce from that?

Except this cloak has far different properties than Naruto and B's cloak. I can use this logic and say that Naruto should get an over 6x boost to all his Ninjutsu just like all the Shinobi alliance did when they obtained his chakra, yet Naruto's Ninjutsu does not get a boost anywhere close to what they got.

Once again this is irrelevant. You're arguing that they get no speed boost which makes no sense at all. Plus Naruto's KCM has different properties to the V1 cloak based on some comparisons. He could feel burns in his KCM state from Rohsi's fire style but in his V1 state, he could prevent Amaterasu from touching him. When was it shown that the V1 cloak doesn't enhance his own Ninjutsu to such a level?

- Physical aspects enhanced which speed fall under...Lee's strength becomes ridiculously enhanced while others also gain a massive boost in other factors but somehow their speed remains the same.

No, it was shown to dramatically power up Ninjutsu. All it's abilities were highlighted and speed wasn't one of them.

Because speed was never shown by anyone all though we saw physical aspect being enhanced.

Unrelated to speed, his precog getting a boost from Rikudo's Chakra is irrelevant because Rikudo's Chakra is not Kyuubi's chakra. Kyuubi's chakra increased his Kamui's power only, don't compare it to the boost in overall Dojutsu prowess that Kakashi got.

No I was saying the chakra enhances his eye ability which Kamui falls under...The RM chakra was an example to show how chakra can enhance one's eyes.

KCC could alter his eyes..I obviously can't prove you wrong but logically thinking, it should obviously strengthen its overall eye ability but I'll drop this since I can't prove you wrong.

If it was a massive boost then yes. If not, then my point still stands as the gap is not large.

Your point obviously doesn't stand...Almost like saying EMS Sasuke still has the same reactions even though he was enhanced.

Susanoo is irrelevant. Doubt it was an error. But you could have a point here.

Yeah.

Don't care about the medium. All I care about is Sasuke's mental reaction, and his Susanoo's speed does not affect that.

Mental reaction doesn't equal his full reactions. Ay could mentally react before Minato could hit. That the same as physically reacting? No. Kisame could mentally react before Gai could kick his face. That the same as physically reacting. Do you know how many people could mentally react in the CE before 5G Lee could complete HL.

Susanoo was enhanced so however you look at it, everything still boils down to his overall reaction.

You do realize that makes zero sense right? That'd mean that they were equal or on par at best. Not that Naruto would be superior.

How? Lol I'm not good at this god tier comparisons but taking away Hagoromo's chakra from both would mean it's down to BM and EMS. I showed how both faired against Kaguya's attack so it would mean that form of Naruto without half the chakra would be superior to that form of Sasuke without half the chakra in reaction speed. Then we should have BSM Naruto obviously being superior.