[Debate] Religion vs Athiest debate, (new stuff)

[KingHashirama]

Some people tend to read just as a traditional thing.

ah, it sure sucks to be a human

-sigh-, sadly so. (Next topic in 1 hour, be ready to discuss xD)

 

[Da Best Ever]

yes, truly religious people are rare, but I guess it's because of the secular focused world we live in nowadays. Not to mention all the distractions and desires people face

over time peoples faith begin to fade, and people think to much of themselves

 

[Jobrjo]

wow you sure are good at this

Thanks

But atheists only deny the presence of God. They do not deny morals, or standards set by society. Such as the concept of "Social contract".

And yea sadly it isn't the state of the world, but however if we do not work towards that state of the world, it will never be the state of the world.

Just saying I didn't complete that post on accident, so I majorly edited it.
Anyhow to respond to you, I'll go back to my "truth". The atheist can "believe" in morals, but at the end of the day there is no absolute in such a worldview, only the opinions of the group of people that happen to live around you. By an atheistic standard, Al Queda lives by a social contract just as much as the government of the USA. A group of people can decide to punish an action, but they cannot justify as to why, other than it's their opinion and they have the power- leading once more to a "survival of the fittest" sorta thing.

 

[KingHashirama]

Thanks


Just saying I didn't complete that post on accident, so I majorly edited it.
Anyhow to respond to you, I'll go back to my "truth". The atheist can "believe" in morals, but at the end of the day there is no absolute in such a worldview, only the opinions of the group of people that happen to live around you. By an atheistic standard, Al Queda lives by a social contract just as much as the government of the USA. A group of people can decide to punish an action, but they cannot justify as to why, other than it's their opinion and they have the power- leading once more to a "survival of the fittest" sorta thing.

Al Qaeda also believes they have a religious justification for their actions. Hence the religious path isn't the truth here either.

So it is in the end simply a matter of false truth that doesn't exist. But the truth in the end we know for a fact is that we are of the same species. That we are humans. That is what that quote was trying to express:

"All
have the same eyes, the same ears, the
same body and the same form. They are
all made of earth, air, fire and water. "


Which religions do you study btw?

as far as the whole muslims dominated the europeans isnt quite true, Saladin took back Jerusalem when their king died

No not in fighting mate, I'm talking about advancement in culture. A whole lot of things in Europe during the renaissance period came from the Muslim culture of the middle East. Constantinople.

 

[Jobrjo]

Al Qaeda also believes they have a religious justification for their actions. Hence the religious path isn't the truth here either.

So it is in the end simply a matter of false truth that doesn't exist. But the truth in the end we know for a fact is that we are of the same species. That we are humans. That is what that quote was trying to express:

"All
have the same eyes, the same ears, the
same body and the same form. They are
all made of earth, air, fire and water. "


Which religions do you study btw?

That's the thing you see. There are so many religions, so many belief systems, so many opinions, but at the end of the day there is but one fact. Remember truth is objective in nature, and unchanging. Just because someone says, such as Al Queda, that they are doing it all in the name of Allah doesn't make any of that true. However all religions certainly aren't the same, no two are alike. Just because one is wrong doesn't mean that the rest are.


As a Christian, I study scripture mostly, though I know a thing or 2 about other beliefs- and for that which I don't Google always has my back ;D

 

[Bronze]

Mohammed didn't write the Quran. God did and sent it to Mohammed. And its teaching were based on the original teachings on Bible and Torah, though the Jewish and Christians changed the scripts.

Either way, scientist cant prove God doesn't exist even with the current technology. Though there are scientific evidences that coincides with religion. Some people are just too ignorant to accept that, and cling with their beliefs because they think they are right.

 

[Da Best Ever]

Al Qaeda also believes they have a religious justification for their actions. Hence the religious path isn't the truth here either.

So it is in the end simply a matter of false truth that doesn't exist. But the truth in the end we know for a fact is that we are of the same species. That we are humans. That is what that quote was trying to express:

"All
have the same eyes, the same ears, the
same body and the same form. They are
all made of earth, air, fire and water. "


Which religions do you study btw?




No not in fighting mate, I'm talking about advancement in culture. A whole lot of things in Europe during the renaissance period came from the Muslim culture of the middle East. Constantinople.

True, but at earlier points in history Europe was in the forefront, also many believe Christianity is what lead to the Roman Empire downfall, to the Barbaric Germanic Tribes, they say Christianity made them soft...if this is true this could also be the reason Europe later wasnt the leader anymore and was falling behind muslim cultures in scientific advancement...i think Christianity could have made them soft and took that ruling grip away from Europe....i agree with your whole perspective on this topic....

but this is a never ending debate, we will never know the answer to this unless someone creates a time machine and goes to the exact moment of creation...


i remember a JLU episode(not saying this has any relevance at because it doesnt) where this villian was traveling through time and the JL were following right behind him to every point in history he went but and eventually he went to the beginning of creation and saw the hand of "God"...

 

[KingHashirama]

That's the thing you see. There are so many religions, so many belief systems, so many opinions, but at the end of the day there is but one fact. Remember truth is objective in nature, and unchanging. Just because someone says, such as Al Queda, that they are doing it all in the name of Allah doesn't make any of that true. However all religions certainly aren't the same, no two are alike. Just because one is wrong doesn't mean that the rest are.


As a Christian, I study scripture mostly, though I know a thing or 2 about other beliefs- and for that which I don't Google always has my back ;D

And that one fact is the sole fact that we are humans with different beliefs.

But my point was that there is no "truth" side in atheists vs religion. It is simply a matter of belief.

True, but at earlier points in history Europe was in the forefront, also many believe Christianity is what lead to the Roman Empire downfall, to the Barbaric Germanic Tribes, they say Christianity made them soft...if this is true this could also be the reason Europe later wasnt the leader anymore and was falling behind muslim cultures in scientific advancement...i think Christianity could have made them soft and took that ruling grip away from Europe....i agree with your whole perspective on this topic....

but this is a never ending debate, we will never know the answer to this unless someone creates a time machine and goes to the exact moment of creation...


i remember a JLU episode(not saying this has any relevance at because it doesnt) where this villian was traveling through time and the JL were following right behind him to every point in history he went but and eventually he went to the beginning of creation and saw the hand of "God"...

Ahaha glad we share the same opinion =D

And yea i know what episode you are talking about. Its in my top 5 favorite episodes (though they were multiple episodes lol).

 

[Da Best Ever]

Mohammed didn't write the Quran. God did and sent it to Mohammed. And its teaching were based on the original teachings on Bible and Torah, though the Jewish and Christians changed the scripts.

Either way, scientist cant prove God doesn't exist even with the current technology. Though there are scientific evidences that coincides with religion. Some people are just too ignorant to accept that, and cling with their beliefs because they think they are right.

do u think a being that can create all things can be figured out/understood by human beings??? no, that like saying ants know what we are and understand us

 

[Jobrjo]

Let me put it like this. 2 contradicting beliefs cannot both be true. There is a God or there is not. One of those is fact, one of those is truth. There is no middle ground.
The thing is that the answer has massive consequences.

 

[Bronze]

do u think a being that can create all things can be figured out/understood by human beings??? no, that like saying ants know what we are and understand us

Human being has a limit for the amount of knowledge he is supposed to know. A being who is all-powerful, all hearing, all seeing, all knowing and omnipotent in every way is pretty much impossible for us humans to understand.

 

[Da Best Ever]

Human being has a limit for the amount of knowledge he is supposed to know. A being who is all-powerful, all hearing, all seeing, all knowing and omnipotent in every way is pretty much impossible for us humans to understand.

that what i just asked and answered...

 

[Bronze]

that what i just asked and answered...

Then why did you ask it in the first place?

 

[Da Best Ever]

Then why did you ask it in the first place?

i think i misinterpreted your post as if you thought otherwise so i asked a question answered it myself...#MyBad

 

[kripto4]

So are you saying none of the religions are right?
If you are, then how come the minor signs if the day if reckoning has bypassed?
The ones that the prophet Muhammad fortold

 

[Hellas]

1. The Bible/Quran is a religious book, so you can’t use the Bible/Quran as your source of information on what’s written in the Bible/Quran.

2. Implied: Just because you Christians/Muslims are the ones who experience and practice faith, and just because you’ve been examining it and writing on it for centuries, doesn’t mean you have any authority to speak on what faith is.

3. I’ll tell you what faith is: it’s thinking without reason.

All conclusions reached by objective inquiries, be it science, history, or whatever, must be falsifiable. The theory of general relativity, for example, is testable, and could in theory be disproven through experimentation, if it were wrong. Any statement that is designed such that you cannot disprove it even if it were false is worthless. For example:

Spoiler

There exist invisible pink unicorns that you cannot detect by any means, and that do not register or affect the universe in any manner.

You can't prove me wrong now, can you?

So, when it comes to God, exactly what would religious persons take to be disproof of his existence? Because it seems to me that these religions have been cleverly marketed to be unfalsifiable:

• The Bible says God created the Earth in six days, that he created Eve from Adam's rib, that there exists a talking snake, etc.? No, that's just allegorical.
• The Bible tells you to kill your children if they are disobedient? No, that's just...well, I haven't really heard an excuse for this one.
• God didn't answer the starving, dying young girl's prayers? That's just a part of his plan.
• Study shows that prayer doesn't work beyond placebo? That's because you're testing God.
• Science demonstrates that the universe runs on a combination of deterministic and probabilistic laws, with no room for miracles or divine intervention? God just manipulates physics when nobody's looking.
• No evidence for God? God's just hiding his existence.
• Person died and claimed to see nothing? Obviously God wipes people's memories in some near death experiences...sometimes...
• etc.

No matter what evidence comes out that points towards the lack of existence of God, religious people will simply bend the facts to suit their predetermined conclusions. In science, history, or whatever, this type of reversed inquiry is called "bias". In religion, it's just called "faith".

 

[KingHashirama]

So are you saying none of the religions are right?
If you are, then how come the minor signs if the day if reckoning has bypassed?
The ones that the prophet Muhammad fortold

Well if you want to talk about "Foretelling" of the Qu'ran... Many sikhs will tell you that the coming of the Khalsa.

"Allah emphasizes His mighty ability and states that whoever reverts from supporting His religion and establishing His Law, then Allah will replace them with whomever is better, mightier and more righteous in Allah's religion and Law. Allah said in other Ayat,

(And if you turn away, He will exchange you for some other people and they will not be your likes.) and,
(Do you not see that Allah has created the heavens and the earth with truth If He will, He can remove you and bring (in your place) a new creation! And for Allah that is not hard or difficult.)[14:19-20]. Verily this is not difficult or hard on Allah. Allah said here,

(O you who believe! Whoever from among you turns back from his religion...) and turns back from the truth to falsehood, from now until the commencement of the Last Hour. "

"YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! if any from among you turn back from his Faith, soon will Allah produce a people whom He will love as they will love Him,- lowly with the believers, mighty against the rejecters, fighting in the way of Allah,

and never afraid of the reproaches of such as find fault. That is the grace of Allah, which He will bestow on whom He pleaseth. And Allah encompasseth all, and He knoweth all things. "

Sikhism = religion made for defending justice. Khalsa (army of the Sikhs) means the pure ones. It derives from the persian word meaning pure.


And then the 10th Guru says this about his own religion:

"as long as the Khalsa follows God and shows devotion to god, the guru will always be with the Khalsa. But if the Khalsa starts following other misconceptions and strays away from god, the guru will not then be with the khalsa."


So the prophecy thing really isn't helping it is up for however you want to interpret it.

And Also then we have the "prophecy" from the Rigveda ancient texts of the hindu, describing about the first guru of the sikhs..

"Sri Nanak gureng vareng saklaath heythoo. Heitha samasth jagathaa va veithee kaetheng"

"For the preaching of religious ways and the earning of good karma, there will manifest Guru NANAK from the clan of the Veithees"

"Eeth eethei Vishnu reinn chakramei threihaa nathathei patham"

"The Prophet in the Kali Yuga will manifest three attributes. As an Avtar propounding Truth, as a Householder establishing family life and at the same time be a Raja Yogi"

"Theraa bhaareng thereshtwah keli krethem maha krethyaa. Aeveng vaee tharam parchaariang bhavekhthee thaa kalau. Thatha vei loka rakheiaartheng maleishana naas heithwei paschmeitlheng subh theisay vath wensei chei Nanaka naam nach rekhiang brahem geaanaik manas bhavekhet kaloe skunth thatar verth kaleaah har (35)."


"In the Kali Yuga when goodness in the world is deteriorating there will appear a Prophet from the Beithi clan named NANAK who from birth will be endowed with extra-ordinary spiritual power. He will preach on the nobility of life and the eradication of the sinful ways"


"Guru thaa Brahma, Guru raa Vishnu, Guru raa dev maheshra saakhyaar Parbrehem Thasmei NANAK nameh"

"The Guru of the prophets, Brahma, Vishnu and Shiv ji is God almighty himself. This very Creator will manifest itself as a human, in the form of one whose name will be NANAK

 

[Murasame]

Nice thread I agree with you KingHashirama

 

[KingHashirama]

Nice thread I agree with you KingHashirama

oh my something we agree on ;p

1. The Bible/Quran is a religious book, so you can’t use the Bible/Quran as your source of information on what’s written in the Bible/Quran.

2. Implied: Just because you Christians/Muslims are the ones who experience and practice faith, and just because you’ve been examining it and writing on it for centuries, doesn’t mean you have any authority to speak on what faith is.

3. I’ll tell you what faith is: it’s thinking without reason.

All conclusions reached by objective inquiries, be it science, history, or whatever, must be falsifiable. The theory of general relativity, for example, is testable, and could in theory be disproven through experimentation, if it were wrong. Any statement that is designed such that you cannot disprove it even if it were false is worthless. For example:

Spoiler

There exist invisible pink unicorns that you cannot detect by any means, and that do not register or affect the universe in any manner.

You can't prove me wrong now, can you?

So, when it comes to God, exactly what would religious persons take to be disproof of his existence? Because it seems to me that these religions have been cleverly marketed to be unfalsifiable:

• The Bible says God created the Earth in six days, that he created Eve from Adam's rib, that there exists a talking snake, etc.? No, that's just allegorical.
• The Bible tells you to kill your children if they are disobedient? No, that's just...well, I haven't really heard an excuse for this one.
• God didn't answer the starving, dying young girl's prayers? That's just a part of his plan.
• Study shows that prayer doesn't work beyond placebo? That's because you're testing God.
• Science demonstrates that the universe runs on a combination of deterministic and probabilistic laws, with no room for miracles or divine intervention? God just manipulates physics when nobody's looking.
• No evidence for God? God's just hiding his existence.
• Person died and claimed to see nothing? Obviously God wipes people's memories in some near death experiences...sometimes...
• etc.

No matter what evidence comes out that points towards the lack of existence of God, religious people will simply bend the facts to suit their predetermined conclusions. In science, history, or whatever, this type of reversed inquiry is called "bias". In religion, it's just called "faith".

Have you meditated? Have you worshipped him? <<<<< Many have spent years worshipping god and said they met him. If you have not tried the process you cannot claim he does not exist.


Pink Unicorns ... however the problem is what about pink unicorns? What do they do? Where do they exist?<<< You also have to answer those questions, which religions do. Though they are sometimes proven wrong.


Also what about the religion who states this:

Kavan se rutee maahu kavan jit hoaa aakaar||
What was that season, and what was that month, when the Universe was created?

Vael na paa-ee-aa panddatee je hovai laekh puraan||
The Pandits, the religious scholars, cannot find that time, even if it is written in the Puraanas.

Vakhat an paa-i-ou kaadee-aa ij likhan laekh kuraan||
That time is not known to the Qazis, who study the Koran.

Thit vaar naa jogee jaanai rut maahu naa koee||
The day and the date are not known to the Yogis, nor is the month or the season.

Jaa karahaa sirtthee ko saajae aapae jaanai soee||
The Creator who created this creation-only He Himself knows.

How will you be able to question that? You cannot.....because the religion itself states one cannot know all those things..

There are many religions in the world. Putting down all of them because one is proven false doesn't make all faiths false you know.