Naruto's Idealism or Sasuke's Realist views:Which is more suited for change in NV?

[nightwolf888]

it has to be a combination, Naruto's plan is not going to work without sasuke's inputn and Sasuke's plan won't work without naruto's input

 

[ShiroT]

And YOU'RE not listening.

What happens when Naruto is not there to police every bodies emotions? What happens when future generations question the supposed ideals passed down?

i've already explained this . . .

hashirama - the village still believed his ideas

Hiruzen - the village still believed his ideas.

All of there ideas have carried down to every other hokage and throughout the village. Nobody but danzo/orochimaru has challenged this idea. TWO people.

this would apply to EVERY village. ooniki would work to change his village. he would pick a kage who believed the same idea as him. this kage teaches the kids this which spreads the idea. now we have the kids growing up with this and we have the people from ooniki's era who believe this.

this will result in the majority believing this idea. as shown with the hidden leaf village, the majority has not questioned this belief.

 

[Shadow Phantasm]

Up till now you don't even know what you are talking about. Your human nature argument is so random and all over the place since you are not reconciling it with anything meaningful.

How can it be in human nature that they get tired of peace huh?, so let me ask you or any other member here whether if they are tired of peace and you would see that what you are talking about is absurd and excuse me to say stupid.

It's only stupid and absurd to you because you don't know anything about humanity.People are self centered creatures who will step on others to get ahead in life,sure there are some that don't do that but they are small in number.

We aren't peaceful creatures,nature has bred us to be violent over millions of years thanks to evolution.

 

[nightwolf888]

one thing they could do to emilnate the thurst for power , is after naruto passes away , all of the tailed beast must be released , no more jins

 

[Shadow Phantasm]

i've already explained this . . .

hashirama - the village still believed his ideas

Hiruzen - the village still believed his ideas.

All of there ideas have carried down to every other hokage and throughout the village. Nobody but danzo/orochimaru has challenged this idea. TWO people.

this would apply to EVERY village. ooniki would work to change his village. he would pick a kage who believed the same idea as him. this kage teaches the kids this which spreads the idea. now we have the kids growing up with this and we have the people from ooniki's era who believe this.

this will result in the majority believing this idea. as shown with the hidden leaf village, the majority has not questioned this belief.

Classic hivemind society.

 

[Raekwon26]

i've already explained this . . .

hashirama - the village still believed his ideas

Hiruzen - the village still believed his ideas.

All of there ideas have carried down to every other kage and throughout the village. Nobody but danzo/orochimaru has challenged this idea. TWO people.

this would apply to EVERY village. ooniki would work to change his village. he would pick a kage to believed the same idea as him. this kage teaches the kids this which spreads the idea. now we have the kids growing up with this and we have the people from ooniki's era who believe this.

this will result in the majority believing this idea. as shown with the hidden leaf village, the majority has not questioned this belief.

The thing I highlighted in bold COMPLETELY contradicts your whole point.

"If you don't share my views, I don't pick you". Leads to a concentration of power in one place, which can lead to people feeling ignored and ostracized, which can then lead to resentment, which can then lead to hate.............

............and here we are, back at square one.

 

[Shadow Phantasm]

no.

the hidden leaf village is a great example. all the strong people were asked to be hokage. the only person who wasnt was orochiramu because he was evil.

not to mention the village would be brought up with this idea meaning more kids would believe in this. just like most if not the whole leaf believed in hiruzen's idea, the same would apply to any village who enforces this idea.

people would already believe in this idea and any being picked as candidate for kage would be for skill like it always has.

Even Orochimaru said the people preferred him as Hokage and were surprised when Minato got the position instead.Nobody should have to follow the status quo if they want to run the village.

 

[Shadow Phantasm]

The thing I highlighted in bold COMPLETELY contradicts your whole point.

"If you don't share my views, I don't pick you". Leads to a concentration of power in one place, which can lead to people feeling ignored and ostracized, which can then lead to resentment, which can then lead to hate.............

............and here we are, back at square one.

Agreed,societies like that never turn out well and conflict occurs as a result.It won't work.

 

[Tobi98]

What realist views? I don't see how sociopath views that comes from a mentally unstable person can be called "realistic". The "see problem, burn problem" ideology isn't realism, son.

Want a realist view? Hashirama's ideal is realist. "To protect somethings, sometimes another must be sacrificed. Be it a close friend, a relative, or even your own child". He knew he had to kill madara, and he did it, to protect the "greater good".

Sasuke's way of thinking is like Staline's... Lol

 

[Shadow Phantasm]

Sasuke's way of thinking is like Staline's... Lol

Funny because I don't see Sasuke advocating purges since he's sane now.

 

[ShiroT]

It's only stupid and absurd to you because you don't know anything about humanity.People are self centered creatures who will step on others to get ahead in life,sure there are some that don't do that but they are small in number.

We aren't peaceful creatures,nature has bred us to be violent over millions of years thanks to evolution.

so your idea is everyone is violent so the hell with it?

main reasons why people are violent

-someone has done something to them i.e bad parenting, a bully.
-they want/need something and resort to crimes.

again both of these things are manageable. the idea of getting rid of hatred is countering people hurting you. a welfare type system could easily be worked out to help the poor otherwise you will have to work for what you want.

if just love to fight join the chuunin exams or the village could host a fight club/arena battle.

all of these things are manageable.

 

[-Drāke-]

I just love how some people who told somebody last week they couldn't use real world logic in Naruto are using real world logic in this thread

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[Shadow Phantasm]

I just love how some people who told somebody last week they couldn't use real world logic in Naruto are using real world logic in this thread

You must be registered for see images

We're not all using real world logic.

 

[-Drāke-]

We're not all using real world logic.

"Human nature can't change" is using real world logic

 

[Cunning Linguist]

I don't think Sasuke's view is realistic at all. A king must either be hated or loved to be effective. But a hokage must be respected by the village in order to be chosen. Sasuke could never be hokage for the way he treats others. No he is essentially Madara at this point. Naruto will kill him because Sasuke won't change. He is not realistic, but as equally idealistic as Naruto is. He is guided by his own ideals

 

[Shadow Phantasm]

so your idea is everyone is violent so the hell with it?

main reasons why people are violent

-someone has done something to them i.e bad parenting, a bully.
-they want/need something and resort to crimes.

again both of these things are manageable. the idea of getting rid of hatred is countering people hurting you. a welfare type system could easily be worked out to help the poor otherwise you will have to work for what you want.

if just love to fight join the chuunin exams or the village could host a fight club/arena battle.

all of these things are manageable.

I prefer to find a solution that doesn't rely on the idea of humans not being well....human.I like the idea of a combination of Naruto's plan and Sasuke's though since both extremes have some flaws.

 

[Shadow Phantasm]

"Humans nature can't change" is using real world logic

No it isn't when the entire premise of Naruto is ending the cycle of hate.We're just discussing what plans and ideologies are best suited to handle that task.

 

[-Spoiler-]

Even in this war Sasuke was basically going to start another conflict with the Bijuus even though they can't be fight, Sasuke way isn't realistic, its selfish and arrogant.

 

[-Drāke-]

No it isn't when the entire premise of Naruto is ending the cycle of hate.We're just discussing what plans and ideologies are best suited to handle that task.

Yea in NV, a fictional place.

 

[ShiroT]

The thing I highlighted in bold COMPLETELY contradicts your whole point.

"If you don't share my views, I don't pick you". Leads to a concentration of power in one place, which can lead to people feeling ignored and ostracized, which can then lead to resentment, which can then lead to hate.............

............and here we are, back at square one.

Even Orochimaru said the people preferred him as Hokage and were surprised when Minato got the position instead.Nobody should have to follow the status quo if they want to run the village.

please tel me how someone hating another village would lead to the village being better. its just like the uchiha massacre. you cant satify everyone. you have to think bout the majority and not the few. if a few people need to be disappointing so that the majority can be happy then thats the best option. as shown with hiruzen and hashirama about 98% percent of the village believed his idea.

thats just like the usa picking another president who hates all foriegn countries, please explain to me why we should pick this person when he most likely will screw up the country and create problems. if you want to keep a country great then you need to appoint leaders who will do so. and AGAIN the idea is to not be some douch, if your a douch then you most likely shouldnt be in power at all and will surely be hated and or assassinated