Naruto lost his resistance to genjutsu.

[LeSauce]

Sigh, you still cannot form any arguments? Who is talking about Sai? We are mentioning every shinobi that joined them. At least read the arguments that are laid out in front of you instead of ignoring them. Well, I doubt you can construct any valid arguments considering how long this has been going on. But hey, you have evidence right? Right.




Concession accepted.


Who is not validating that it is not canon? Of course it is. I just told you why Naruto/Kurama did not break out of the Genjutsu. It is not my fault you have a giant stick so far up your arse that you cannot see the truth between what is intended for plot sake.


Where exactly did I blame Studio Perriot?




"It was to showcase who was actually pulling Naruto out of the dream, hence why Sakura told Naruto to wake up in the first place. It's called chakra disruption btw, but you cannot show me those feats in the manga. I'll wait."




Are you some kind of horrible reader? The regular shinobi (Sakura, Sai, etc) were placed into the Genjutsu of their own memories, similar to how an Infinite Tsukuyomi would play out, instead would show them memories of what they want. This was entirely different, but still the same in considering what it actually shows. I stated that Naruto/Hinata were the only two shinobi to have actually had connected through the Genjutsu, ultimately making it different from the rest of the group. But hey, I at least do not ignore what is being represented and point figures at the obvious.


Bijuu never get affected by Genjutsu? What kind of nonsense is that? A powerful Genjutsu user can enter the mind of a non-Perfect Jinchuriki can seal them temporarily, a 3T Sasuke was more than powerful enough to stop Naruto's enforcement of Kyuubi chakra during the early stages of Part one (Shippuden). It did not look like a dream world? It was showing the memories of both Naruto/Hinata, why are you comparing it a dream world? I only compared it to the IT in how they operate, but now what they totally conclude.





Still do not understand the difference between what is shown in the Manga, and what is shown in the movies. At least you could understand something so simplistic, but I highly doubt it now. This conversation will likely go nowhere because you lack something important in a debate. Common sense.

Where is your rebuttal for this:

It's not like the only people capable of breaking Genjutsu are Sharingan users or Jinchuriki. There can be normal ninja who are adept at it.

Naruto is easily, easily, the best chakra manipulator in the manga. Illusions, in this manga, are based on the distortion of one's chakra system, Naruto, technically, should be the best ninja in the world at fixing that distortion the fastest considering his chakra control is beyond masterful, to the point of sharing a live connection with thousands of ninja over kilometers for extended periods or simply instantaneously (Alliance FTG), pouring his emotions and visual thoughts into that connection.

It's nice to have another being in your stomach to set things straight, but for a ninja of Naruto's caliber who could heal full-blown eye balls in a touch, it's kind of ridiculous to suggest chakra distortion is going to significantly fault him, the guy should theoretically instantly fix any issue with his chakra flow if he can transmit chakra into creating body parts.

If we consider his entire moveset- it's based on chakra control and manipulation. The Rasegan itself is an incredible display of this. That being said, Sakura passed out at Sasuke's glance, and her chakra control is also pretty impressive.

That's right






So you basically concede? It is obvious who is right at this point, if the Manga cannot prove your claim, than it is obvious who is correct by the former.

"Did Naruto try to break out of the Genjutsu"
"Did Kurama try ot break out of the Genjutsu via chakra disruption"

I'll wait until you can actually show me a real answer. Bulk, you won't.


Kurama doesn't have to ask Naruto to take him out. He wouldn't even take a second guess if he could take him out because that'd be retarded.




At least I understand the differene between plot, and the actual truth.

"Both Naruto and Kurama can release themselves from a Genjutsu if they realize that it is a Genjutsu, firstly. Secondly, if they want to release the person from the Genjutsu. You seem to be utterly contrasted to the point of not understanding how the Genjutsu played in the movie at all. What is the point in watching the movie when you do not understand the difference between a plot device, and an actual contributed into the combination of a superior deus ex machina."

Nothing you showed even makes me think i'm wrong. In fact, it's quite the opposite. You keep bringing up more and more useless points that have nothing to do with what we're talking about. That's why I ignore what I ignore. If you're trying to make a point related to what we're talking about make it and don't beat around the bush.

Wow are you conceded. Concession? Me pointing out your faulty logic is me giving up. ok. Not my fault that logic doesn't make any sense. Don't flatter yourself man. If i'm wrong i'll admit it.

A whole bunch of ad hominems. You know, people usually do that when they're losing an argument. There's really no reason to get hostile otherwise.

There's nothing to make a counter argument for. Your comparison of the people there with sakura has nothing to do with what happened. It's all just a red herring.

Really? You know why? All you gave was speculation based on nothing.

Stick up my arse? løl, when Shikamaru's statement is forgotten then i'd agree.

You don't even know what i'm arguing apparently. You said that Shikamaru's statement was to show Sakura did it, but then I tell that the dream already served that purpose, and then you agree with this.

Again with trying to make some use of the genjutsu being different. It's a red herring dude. It has nothing to do, at all, with Kurama being able to break Naruto out.

I wasn't aware Naruto was a perfect jin at the time. Wow. You know you're going against empowering Naruto right now, right? If genjutsu can still affect the bijuu of perfect Jin then anyone with 3t or a decent genjutsu beats any perfect Jin. Bijuus in perfect Jins don't get affected by the genjutsu.

Rebuttal? For what? For your theory? A theory that has no merit, especially when Sakura was already said to be better than him. That's all one needs to understand that Naruto can't break out the way you say he can. The same way all we need to know that Uchiha and Senju beat any other clan is Tobi's words.

You can keep flattering yourself, bud. Keep using that faulty logic. I even showed you why that logic fail, but it keeps coming back as if it's some nail in a coffin.

See, that's exactly what Naruto can't do anymore. That's the entire point of this whole thread. Shikamaru says Sakura is better and we see that Sakura is the first, and only one, to get out. But let's ignore that and stick to what we want to believe.

 

[Narutohokage324]

Nothing you showed even makes me think i'm wrong. In fact, it's quite the opposite. You keep bringing up more and more useless points that have nothing to do with what we're talking about. That's why I ignore what I ignore. If you're trying to make a point related to what we're talking about make it and don't beat around the bush.

You know what funnier? The fact that you thought you were correct in the first place. I'm assuming that's why your thoughts are a universal belief, correct? Or do you want me to assume some kind of contradictory theory based on a single plot induced deus ex machina. At least you should have some sort of claim to back your sentences up. What do you have? Nothing.

Wow are you conceded. Concession? Me pointing out your faulty logic is me giving up. ok. Not my fault that logic doesn't make any sense. Don't flatter yourself man. If i'm wrong i'll admit it.

Pretty much got your concession there. The fact that you still cannot prove me wrong admits to the points. I'll await your further notice.

A whole bunch of ad hominems. You know, people usually do that when they're losing an argument. There's really no reason to get hostile otherwise.

More complaining? Wow ... Someone with "proof" still cannot show me this "proof" and expects people to listen to this nonsense? How much further will you go? I honestly have no idea.

There's nothing to make a counter argument for. Your comparison of the people there with sakura has nothing to do with what happened. It's all just a red herring.

I'll explain why your arguments are invalid below. There really was no point to this thread seeing how narrowed minded you, and your arguments are for the entirety of this statement.

Really? You know why? All you gave was speculation based on nothing.

Speculation you say? More speculation that you can state facts on how someone can assert an idea that made no sense via canonical information? Please tell me more of assumptions and ideas when your whole hypocrisy is loaded with them to the full.

Stick up my arse? løl, when Shikamaru's statement is forgotten then i'd agree.

You mean before or after Hinata told him the information he asked, and then he restated it, and Hinata still told him no? I'll wait before you concede.

You don't even know what i'm arguing apparently. You said that Shikamaru's statement was to show Sakura did it, but then I tell that the dream already served that purpose, and then you agree with this.

I'll explain below why your arguments are fruitless.

Again with trying to make some use of the genjutsu being different. It's a red herring dude. It has nothing to do, at all, with Kurama being able to break Naruto out.

Sigh. You still cannot understand the basics of what was going on in the movie. Which puts you back to your original statement on why you were wrong throughout this entire argument in the first place. I cannot stress the detail in how you are completely, and surely hypocritical to the scenes that were diverged from the main source.

Rebuttal? For what? For your theory? A theory that has no merit, especially when Sakura was already said to be better than him. That's all one needs to understand that Naruto can't break out the way you say he can. The same way all we need to know that Uchiha and Senju beat any other clan is Tobi's words.

/Taps chin

Time to end this faulty argument once and for all.

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You see this statement. Now I may conclude where exactly in the movie does Naruto/Kurama state that they cannot break out of the Genjutsu. In fact, where does Naruto even try to break out of the Genjutsu in the first place? You see the differences in the overall examples? Killer Bee was actually dealing with a fight, and Naruto was captured in a Genjutsu to view the memories of Hinata so that he can understand her feelings. And you are trying to state some faulty backwards logic in the scene as if Naruto had no way to get out other than Sakura? Where was Kurama? You stated "inside of him" as the obvious answer. Yet, you still cannot show me where in the movie Kurama tried to communicate, nor break him out of the Genjutsu. Which then I implied, they never meant for him to break out in the first place. Which you accusted me of being wrong. Yet you so carelessly forgot that Naruto was never in any position to break away from the Genjutsu. Even when Sakura was yelling his name to wake up, Naruto was still conveying Hinata's emotions/thoughts/memories into his own so that the thickheaded MC would understand why she does the things she does for HIM. You cannot understand why it was placed there, and why Naruto was stuck there? Clearly someone needs to read the Manga in where Perfect Jinchuriki have a type of resistance to Genjutsu via chakra disruption with their partner.

Stating that Naruto lost an ability that was granted the minute he became a Perfect Jinchuriki, then you assert your illogical fact as with no proven evidence. Yet you cannot blissfully show me where Naruto/Kurama state that the Genjutsu was too much for either of them to break. How exactly does a Bijuu forget the abilitiy to transfer chakra to his Jinchuriki? That was already proven incorrect when Naruto could even activate KCM/BM in the first place. Such hypocrisy that you are so blinded by what the movie shown that you actually believe in the retcon points that appeared out of the blue: "a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency."

Right now, you cannot prove me wrong. Never.

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

Other than Tsukuyomi and IT of course^

 

[LeSauce]

You know what funnier? The fact that you thought you were correct in the first place. I'm assuming that's why your thoughts are a universal belief, correct? Or do you want me to assume some kind of contradictory theory based on a single plot induced deus ex machina. At least you should have some sort of claim to back your sentences up. What do you have? Nothing.


Pretty much got your concession there. The fact that you still cannot prove me wrong admits to the points. I'll await your further notice.


More complaining? Wow ... Someone with "proof" still cannot show me this "proof" and expects people to listen to this nonsense? How much further will you go? I honestly have no idea.


I'll explain why your arguments are invalid below. There really was no point to this thread seeing how narrowed minded you, and your arguments are for the entirety of this statement.


Speculation you say? More speculation that you can state facts on how someone can assert an idea that made no sense via canonical information? Please tell me more of assumptions and ideas when your whole hypocrisy is loaded with them to the full.


You mean before or after Hinata told him the information he asked, and then he restated it, and Hinata still told him no? I'll wait before you concede.


I'll explain below why your arguments are fruitless.


Sigh. You still cannot understand the basics of what was going on in the movie. Which puts you back to your original statement on why you were wrong throughout this entire argument in the first place. I cannot stress the detail in how you are completely, and surely hypocritical to the scenes that were diverged from the main source.



/Taps chin

Time to end this faulty argument once and for all.

You must be registered for see images

You see this statement. Now I may conclude where exactly in the movie does Naruto/Kurama state that they cannot break out of the Genjutsu. In fact, where does Naruto even try to break out of the Genjutsu in the first place? You see the differences in the overall examples? Killer Bee was actually dealing with a fight, and Naruto was captured in a Genjutsu to view the memories of Hinata so that he can understand her feelings. And you are trying to state some faulty backwards logic in the scene as if Naruto had no way to get out other than Sakura? Where was Kurama? You stated "inside of him" as the obvious answer. Yet, you still cannot show me where in the movie Kurama tried to communicate, nor break him out of the Genjutsu. Which then I implied, they never meant for him to break out in the first place. Which you accusted me of being wrong. Yet you so carelessly forgot that Naruto was never in any position to break away from the Genjutsu. Even when Sakura was yelling his name to wake up, Naruto was still conveying Hinata's emotions/thoughts/memories into his own so that the thickheaded MC would understand why she does the things she does for HIM. You cannot understand why it was placed there, and why Naruto was stuck there? Clearly someone needs to read the Manga in where Perfect Jinchuriki have a type of resistance to Genjutsu via chakra disruption with their partner.

Stating that Naruto lost an ability that was granted the minute he became a Perfect Jinchuriki, then you assert your illogical fact as with no proven evidence. Yet you cannot blissfully show me where Naruto/Kurama state that the Genjutsu was too much for either of them to break. How exactly does a Bijuu forget the abilitiy to transfer chakra to his Jinchuriki? That was already proven incorrect when Naruto could even activate KCM/BM in the first place. Such hypocrisy that you are so blinded by what the movie shown that you actually believe in the retcon points that appeared out of the blue: "a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency."

Right now, you cannot prove me wrong. Never.

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

Other than Tsukuyomi and IT of course^

You have failed to prove me wrong because Shikamaru's statement still stands. Seriously, all you have to do is prove that statment wrong for me to be wrong.

That means that Sakura is better than Naruto, but that would be impossible if a perfect Jin can get out in seconds. That means that Naruto has lost that resistance.

OK? if Naruto lost his resistance then it's pointless to argue what a perfect jin can and can't do concerning genjutsu because he doesn't have it. Are you starting to understand why I keep saying that what you're saying is useless?

What you need to prove is that Naruto didn't lose his resistance, and still has it, but you're not doing that. Plot and your useless questions are the best argument you had concerning it.

These useless questions you never drop are irrelevant, but they keep coming back. Where does it show that they communicate? Where does it show that they don't? Where does it show Kurama trying to break out Naruto? Well, where does it show that he doesn't? These questions have no answers and they're illogical. But you will keep on asking, won't you?

Tell me, why is Shikamaru wrong? Why is his statement wrong? Don't give anymore loaded questions and red herrings, please.

 

[Narutohokage324]

snip

Yeah? And what exactly is your answer? To a genjutsu you never even heard before and made its appearance in a 1 hour and thirty minute movie only to play a part in the understanding of two characters who were never developed in the manga of Kishimoto to serve as a overall piecing of the puzzle. Continue to tell me how you know exactly how the Genjutsu operates, every detail, hell. I bet you do not even know the name of the Genjutsu you're trying so hard to prove it cannot be broken via Perfect Jinchuriki. How shameful it must to be to be apart of a base that you cannot contribute to the sole fact that your claims are consumed, contributed, and created by Plot itself. Hell, I bet you cannot show me one piece of evidence that claims Naruto not being able to break out of the Genjutsu, other than Sakura breaking it out for him, mind you that Naruto was actually understanding the Genjutsu itself when Hinata and himself were both relaying their past. Not one time did he struggle against it.

But who cares, right? Because of plot, right?

Yeah, that's exactly what happened. You still cannot show me where Shikamaru found out that Sakura who became "so resistant" to Genjutsu that she got destroyed by a simple Genjutsu in the earliest of Chapters, and then the last time she fought against a Genjutsu user it was Sasuke's Rinnegan, and even then that "resistant" came in the form of what? Plot? Rectcon. What's even funnier is that you cannot show me a single solid proof of evidence that shows that Naruto lost his ability of being a Perfect Jinchuriki. Huh?
Let's forget that there's absolutely no reason for Shikamaru to say what he said other than to tell the readers it was thanks to Sakura that they got out.

Oh? You mean he came to the conclusion that Sakura was better at breaking out of Genjutsu than everybody else when she was the one who broke them out in the first place? How ingenious of Shikamaru. Next when Shikamaru points out that the sky is blue you can wank on his intelligence some more on the subject when he had no clear indication for the events happening

I see. You cannot read properly ... Go back a few posts where I explain on who is better at breaking out of Genjutsu by hype. "Sakura by hype". Both her and Naruto have no problem with actually breaking out of Genjutsu if you actually understand what the requirements are for it in the first place.

It's not like the only people capable of breaking Genjutsu are Sharingan users or Jinchuriki. There can be normal ninja who are adept at it.

Naruto is easily, easily, the best chakra manipulator in the manga. Illusions, in this manga, are based on the distortion of one's chakra system, Naruto, technically, should be the best ninja in the world at fixing that distortion the fastest considering his chakra control is beyond masterful, to the point of sharing a live connection with thousands of ninja over kilometers for extended periods or simply instantaneously (Alliance FTG), pouring his emotions and visual thoughts into that connection.

It's nice to have another being in your stomach to set things straight, but for a ninja of Naruto's caliber who could heal full-blown eye balls in a touch, it's kind of ridiculous to suggest chakra distortion is going to significantly fault him, the guy should theoretically instantly fix any issue with his chakra flow if he can transmit chakra into creating body parts.

If we consider his entire moveset- it's based on chakra control and manipulation. The Rasegan itself is an incredible display of this. That being said, Sakura passed out at Sasuke's glance, and her chakra control is also pretty impressive.

I'll ask you this again, for the last time. Prove me wrong, if not, concession accepted.


Time to end this faulty argument once and for all.

You must be registered for see images

You see this statement. Now I may conclude where exactly in the movie does Naruto/Kurama state that they cannot break out of the Genjutsu. In fact, where does Naruto even try to break out of the Genjutsu in the first place? You see the differences in the overall examples? Killer Bee was actually dealing with a fight, and Naruto was captured in a Genjutsu to view the memories of Hinata so that he can understand her feelings. And you are trying to state some faulty backwards logic in the scene as if Naruto had no way to get out other than Sakura? Where was Kurama? You stated "inside of him" as the obvious answer. Yet, you still cannot show me where in the movie Kurama tried to communicate, nor break him out of the Genjutsu. Which then I implied, they never meant for him to break out in the first place. Which you accusted me of being wrong. Yet you so carelessly forgot that Naruto was never in any position to break away from the Genjutsu. Even when Sakura was yelling his name to wake up, Naruto was still conveying Hinata's emotions/thoughts/memories into his own so that the thickheaded MC would understand why she does the things she does for HIM. You cannot understand why it was placed there, and why Naruto was stuck there? Clearly someone needs to read the Manga in where Perfect Jinchuriki have a type of resistance to Genjutsu via chakra disruption with their partner.

Stating that Naruto lost an ability that was granted the minute he became a Perfect Jinchuriki, then you assert your illogical fact as with no proven evidence. Yet you cannot blissfully show me where Naruto/Kurama state that the Genjutsu was too much for either of them to break. How exactly does a Bijuu forget the abilitiy to transfer chakra to his Jinchuriki? That was already proven incorrect when Naruto could even activate KCM/BM in the first place. Such hypocrisy that you are so blinded by what the movie shown that you actually believe in the retcon points that appeared out of the blue: "a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency."

Right now, you cannot prove me wrong. Never.

You must be registered for see images

Other than Tsukuyomi and IT of course^

 

[LeSauce]

I'll ask you this again, for the last time. Prove me wrong, if not, concession accepted.


Time to end this faulty argument once and for all.

You must be registered for see images

You see this statement. Now I may conclude where exactly in the movie does Naruto/Kurama state that they cannot break out of the Genjutsu. In fact, where does Naruto even try to break out of the Genjutsu in the first place? You see the differences in the overall examples? Killer Bee was actually dealing with a fight, and Naruto was captured in a Genjutsu to view the memories of Hinata so that he can understand her feelings. And you are trying to state some faulty backwards logic in the scene as if Naruto had no way to get out other than Sakura? Where was Kurama? You stated "inside of him" as the obvious answer. Yet, you still cannot show me where in the movie Kurama tried to communicate, nor break him out of the Genjutsu. Which then I implied, they never meant for him to break out in the first place. Which you accusted me of being wrong. Yet you so carelessly forgot that Naruto was never in any position to break away from the Genjutsu. Even when Sakura was yelling his name to wake up, Naruto was still conveying Hinata's emotions/thoughts/memories into his own so that the thickheaded MC would understand why she does the things she does for HIM. You cannot understand why it was placed there, and why Naruto was stuck there? Clearly someone needs to read the Manga in where Perfect Jinchuriki have a type of resistance to Genjutsu via chakra disruption with their partner.

Stating that Naruto lost an ability that was granted the minute he became a Perfect Jinchuriki, then you assert your illogical fact as with no proven evidence. Yet you cannot blissfully show me where Naruto/Kurama state that the Genjutsu was too much for either of them to break. How exactly does a Bijuu forget the abilitiy to transfer chakra to his Jinchuriki? That was already proven incorrect when Naruto could even activate KCM/BM in the first place. Such hypocrisy that you are so blinded by what the movie shown that you actually believe in the retcon points that appeared out of the blue: "a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency."

Right now, you cannot prove me wrong. Never.

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

Other than Tsukuyomi and IT of course^

Where's your proof that Kurama didn't try to break him out? Where's your proof that Kurama knew what Naruto was seeing and then decided to leave Naruto there. Where's your proof that Kurama wasn't worried about the situation? Where's your proof of Kurama not communicating with Naruto? Where's your proof that proves Shikamaru wrong?

Naruto wasn't in a position to be broken out? But he was broken out and it was easily done. Where is the struggle that shows that he wasn't in a position to be broken out? I saw no struggle what so ever. Sakura appearing in a dream is a struggle now? Where does she, or anyone, say it was a struggle?
<-- This is what you're doing. Giving questions that can't be answered.
The rest of your so called argument is you giving me loaded questions and saying it doesn't make sense to you that Naruto would lose the ability, but guess what? I couldn't give 2 shits if it made sense to you or not.

Now your saying I shouldn't believe the movie? Why because you don't like the retcon?

 

[Narutohokage324]

Where's your proof that Kurama didn't try to break him out? Where's your proof that Kurama knew what Naruto was seeing and then decided to leave Naruto there. Where's your proof that Kurama wasn't worried about the situation? Where's your proof of Kurama not communicating with Naruto? Where's your proof that proves Shikamaru wrong?

Naruto wasn't in a position to be broken out? But he was broken out and it was easily done. Where is the struggle that shows that he wasn't in a position to be broken out? I saw no struggle what so ever. Sakura appearing in a dream is a struggle now? Where does she, or anyone, say it was a struggle?
<-- This is what you're doing. Giving questions that can't be answered.
The rest of your so called argument is you giving me loaded questions and saying it doesn't make sense to you that Naruto would lose the ability, but guess what? I couldn't give 2 shits if it made sense to you or not.

Now your saying I shouldn't believe the movie? Why because you don't like the retcon?

"Your saying I should not believei n the movie" -- I said you should understand the difference between retcon and a fact. If Kurama was not shown giving him chakra to break out, your basically stating facts from the nowhere.

Now try to debate against this, because so far. Your rebuttal still fails in comparison to this exact post:

You must be registered for see images

You see this statement. Now I may conclude where exactly in the movie does Naruto/Kurama state that they cannot break out of the Genjutsu. In fact, where does Naruto even try to break out of the Genjutsu in the first place? You see the differences in the overall examples? Killer Bee was actually dealing with a fight, and Naruto was captured in a Genjutsu to view the memories of Hinata so that he can understand her feelings. And you are trying to state some faulty backwards logic in the scene as if Naruto had no way to get out other than Sakura? Where was Kurama? You stated "inside of him" as the obvious answer. Yet, you still cannot show me where in the movie Kurama tried to communicate, nor break him out of the Genjutsu. Which then I implied, they never meant for him to break out in the first place. Which you accusted me of being wrong. Yet you so carelessly forgot that Naruto was never in any position to break away from the Genjutsu. Even when Sakura was yelling his name to wake up, Naruto was still conveying Hinata's emotions/thoughts/memories into his own so that the thickheaded MC would understand why she does the things she does for HIM. You cannot understand why it was placed there, and why Naruto was stuck there? Clearly someone needs to read the Manga in where Perfect Jinchuriki have a type of resistance to Genjutsu via chakra disruption with their partner.

Stating that Naruto lost an ability that was granted the minute he became a Perfect Jinchuriki, then you assert your illogical fact as with no proven evidence. Yet you cannot blissfully show me where Naruto/Kurama state that the Genjutsu was too much for either of them to break. How exactly does a Bijuu forget the abilitiy to transfer chakra to his Jinchuriki? That was already proven incorrect when Naruto could even activate KCM/BM in the first place. Such hypocrisy that you are so blinded by what the movie shown that you actually believe in the retcon points that appeared out of the blue: "a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency."

You must be registered for see images

Other than Tsukuyomi and IT of course^

I want a legitimate response that counters every argument with manga facts, and scans from the movie that show every question I had asked. If not, then I will end it here with concession accepted.

 

[LeSauce]

"Your saying I should not believei n the movie" -- I said you should understand the difference between retcon and a fact. If Kurama was not shown giving him chakra to break out, your basically stating facts from the nowhere.

Now try to debate against this, because so far. Your rebuttal still fails in comparison to this exact post:

You must be registered for see images

You see this statement. Now I may conclude where exactly in the movie does Naruto/Kurama state that they cannot break out of the Genjutsu. In fact, where does Naruto even try to break out of the Genjutsu in the first place? You see the differences in the overall examples? Killer Bee was actually dealing with a fight, and Naruto was captured in a Genjutsu to view the memories of Hinata so that he can understand her feelings. And you are trying to state some faulty backwards logic in the scene as if Naruto had no way to get out other than Sakura? Where was Kurama? You stated "inside of him" as the obvious answer. Yet, you still cannot show me where in the movie Kurama tried to communicate, nor break him out of the Genjutsu. Which then I implied, they never meant for him to break out in the first place. Which you accusted me of being wrong. Yet you so carelessly forgot that Naruto was never in any position to break away from the Genjutsu. Even when Sakura was yelling his name to wake up, Naruto was still conveying Hinata's emotions/thoughts/memories into his own so that the thickheaded MC would understand why she does the things she does for HIM. You cannot understand why it was placed there, and why Naruto was stuck there? Clearly someone needs to read the Manga in where Perfect Jinchuriki have a type of resistance to Genjutsu via chakra disruption with their partner.

Stating that Naruto lost an ability that was granted the minute he became a Perfect Jinchuriki, then you assert your illogical fact as with no proven evidence. Yet you cannot blissfully show me where Naruto/Kurama state that the Genjutsu was too much for either of them to break. How exactly does a Bijuu forget the abilitiy to transfer chakra to his Jinchuriki? That was already proven incorrect when Naruto could even activate KCM/BM in the first place. Such hypocrisy that you are so blinded by what the movie shown that you actually believe in the retcon points that appeared out of the blue: "a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency."

Right now, you cannot prove me wrong. Never.

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Other than Tsukuyomi and IT of course^

You know what the funniest thing about your post is? The fact the you're the only one denying the words given to you by the movie, yet you're too ignorant to see it.

If you're not going to answer my questions, that's fine. Just don't think that you're right based on the what you posted. I've honestly never been more frustrated with a person in my life.

Anyway, continue to believe what you want.

 

[Narutohokage324]

You know what the funniest thing about your post is? The fact the you're the only one denying the words given to you by the movie, yet you're too ignorant to see it.

If you're not going to answer my questions, that's fine. Just don't think that you're right based on the what you posted. I've honestly never been more frustrated with a person in my life.

Anyway, continue to believe what you want.

You know what is sad? Like honestly truly sad? Is that no one even stated that the words were wrong from the movie. The funniest fact is that you cannot prove my points, and here you are arguing the same old battle with nothing to base your claims from. Did I say the movie was wrong? I proved your point wrong.

They never stated that Naruto lost the ability to break from Genjutsu, nor Kurama. Nor Naruto losing that ability after becoming a PerfectJin. You did. Weirdest part is that when I actual brought questions and debate points to the table, you nonchalantly ignored them and blamed me as if I was stating the movie was wrong. Not to mention no one in this actual thread believed a word you wrote.

Baseless claim of a Jin losing an ability that can never be lost. A joke? Prematurely, rather you can progress knowing that you will be seen as nothing more than what you showcase yourself as.

 

[LeSauce]

You know what is sad? Like honestly truly sad? Is that no one even stated that the words were wrong from the movie. The funniest fact is that you cannot prove my points, and here you are arguing the same old battle with nothing to base your claims from. Did I say the movie was wrong? I proved your point wrong.

They never stated that Naruto lost the ability to break from Genjutsu, nor Kurama. Nor Naruto losing that ability after becoming a PerfectJin. You did. Weirdest part is that when I actual brought questions and debate points to the table, you nonchalantly ignored them and blamed me as if I was stating the movie was wrong. Not to mention no one in this actual thread believed a word you wrote.

Baseless claim of a Jin losing an ability that can never be lost. A joke? Prematurely, rather you can progress knowing that you will be seen as nothing more than what you showcase yourself as.

You proved nothing. Nothing at all.

In fact, I hope someone actually does prove me wrong just so you can see how wrong you were.

By saying he didn't lose it, you're saying that Shikamaru was wrong. How are not denying it then?

I couldn't careless if no one agreed with me. Prove me wrong if i'm wrong. If i'm so wrong, then it should be easy. I'm not not going to listen, in fact I listened to your posts knowing you wouldn't change your mind. It was insane of me to think you would.

I even read thinking you would bring up a good argument that would make me look stupid, but you didn't.

 

[Narutohokage324]

You proved nothing. Nothing at all.

In fact, I hope someone actually does prove me wrong just so you can see how wrong you were.

By saying he didn't lose it, you're saying that Shikamaru was wrong. How are not denying it then?

I couldn't careless if no one agreed with me. Prove me wrong if i'm wrong. If i'm so wrong, then it should be easy. I'm not not going to listen, in fact I listened to your posts knowing you wouldn't change your mind. It was insane of me to think you would.

I even read thinking you would bring up a good argument that would make me look stupid, but you didn't.

Sigh

I already proved that Shikamaru was wrong on one account, which you purportedly ignored after I showed you the screen shots. Funny is that not? Not to mention you did not even take into account that Shikamaru holds no actually information for what a Perfect Jinchuriki can do. But you seem to take an understanding that the man said that Sakura was resistant to Genjutsu, only after she broke everyone out of it?

Where exactly was her resistant to Genjutsu in the manga? Oh ... You do not know? OH WAIT. I asked this before, didn't I? I did. I remember exactly what I said: "Show me a manga scan of it" Wanna know what you replied? "You ignoring the movie now?"

Some people are just born stupid i guess.

 

[LeSauce]

Sigh

I already proved that Shikamaru was wrong on one account, which you purportedly ignored after I showed you the screen shots. Funny is that not? Not to mention you did not even take into account that Shikamaru holds no actually information for what a Perfect Jinchuriki can do. But you seem to take an understanding that the man said that Sakura was resistant to Genjutsu, only after she broke everyone out of it?

Where exactly was her resistant to Genjutsu in the manga? Oh ... You do not know? OH WAIT. I asked this before, didn't I? I did. I remember exactly what I said: "Show me a manga scan of it" Wanna know what you replied? "You ignoring the movie now?"

Some people are just born stupid i guess.

Do you see what you did here? Read it. Read it carefully and remember.

This is an argument that actually goes against what i'm saying. This an actual argument that isn't a whole bunch of useless junk and actually holds value.

At least the top half is.

Anyway, you say that Shikamaru holds no value, but that's incorrect. Shikamaru was never wrong. You say that it was because Shikamaru was woken up by Sakura that he said what he said, sure that could be true, but the fact remains that there's no reason for him to say that other than to point out that she was the only one who could break them out.

You have to remember that the writers wrote what they say, and Shikamaru said that Sakura was the most resistant. He isn't going to say that for the löls, and his statement has yet to be proven wrong. It's just like Hiashi saying the the Hyuga are the strongest in the leaf. They are because he said they are. Sakura is the most resistant because Shikamaru said she was.

 

[Shruikan]

So many huge walls of text and I have yet to see a actual feat of Naruto breaking a high level genjutsu.Hype is irrelevant for me and so is whether Kurama was there or not.I look at the entire series as a Whole and the conclusion is Naruto is probably average to below average at genjutsu.

 

[Narutohokage324]

Do you see what you did here? Read it. Read it carefully and remember.

This is an argument that actually goes against what i'm saying. This an actual argument that isn't a whole bunch of useless junk and actually holds value.

At least the top half is.

Anyway, you say that Shikamaru holds no value, but that's incorrect. Shikamaru was never wrong. You say that it was because Shikamaru was woken up by Sakura that he said what he said, sure that could be true, but the fact remains that there's no reason for him to say that other than to point out that she was the only one who could break them out.

You have to remember that the writers wrote what they say, and Shikamaru said that Sakura was the most resistant. He isn't going to say that for the löls, and his statement has yet to be proven wrong. It's just like Hiashi saying the the Hyuga are the strongest in the leaf. They are because he said they are. Sakura is the most resistant because Shikamaru said she was.

Sigh. Shikamaru was wrong when he believed that Hinata's eyes were unable to work, Hinata implied that it was because of a distortion. Itself was already proven by Hinata herself five minutes before Shikamaru told her that, in which Hinata herself told him upfront. I fail to see the logical reasoning as to why that would not deem as a fault. Which Shikamaru himself says "Ah okay". :/

You sure know how to interpret between what is actually there, and what is not there. The writers for this movie do not have five minutes to explain why this happened, or why this did not happen. That's not really how this movie went. It was pretty much this happened, and for that reason. This does not apply to the story-line in which they explain the Hamura line, but merely the events on what actually is happening.

You cannot say that A is B and then create a divergent from the entire story-line and state that A is C. Same rules apply here. There was nothing in the manga that states it so, so you believe in the nothingness of the aspect when nothing was there to actually prove thy claim? Same rules apply to really anything else that needs to be stated.

 

[LeSauce]

Sigh. Shikamaru was wrong when he believed that Hinata's eyes were unable to work, Hinata implied that it was because of a distortion. Itself was already proven by Hinata herself five minutes before Shikamaru told her that, in which Hinata herself told him upfront. I fail to the logical reasoning as to why that would not deem as a fault. Which Shikamaru himself says "Ah okay". :/

You sure know how to interpret between what is actually there, and what is not there. The writers for this movie do not have five minutes to explain why this happened, or why this did not happen. That's not really how this movie went. It was pretty much this happened, and for that reason. This does not apply to the story-line in which they explain the Hamura line, but merely the events on what actually is happening.

You cannot say that A is B and then create a divergent from the entire story-line and state that A is C. Same rules apply here. There was nothing in the manga that states it so, so you believe in the nothingness of the aspect when nothing was there to actually prove thy claim? Same rules apply to really anything else that needs to be stated.

It's an unnecessary statement. We saw that Sakura broke them out, so it wasn't to tell us that it was her, but rather to tell the reader that without her they would have stayed in the genjutsu. It's why Shikamaru says that they would still be in the genjutsu otherwise.

You're right, the writers aren't explaining why it happened, they're just saying that if it hadn't they would still be in the genjutsu.

Think of it this way. Geez, we almost died, thank goodness jimmy had a car so we could get away. In this case we see that without Jimmy, they would have died. It's the same concept for Sakura. She's Jimmy and Shikamaru is saying that without her they would still be in the genjutsu.

Sure, it's a retcon and it makes little sense, but so does Kurama getting out, and so does Naruto not using his full strength. But the movie is canon, and we can only interpret what is said. From what is said, Naruto wouldn't be able to break out.

As well, think of Kurama getting out. It goes against the entire manga, but it happened, and since it happened it's entirely possible now.

As for Hinata, I think she was agreeing with Shikamaru, not disagreeing. She says no as in "no, my byakugan doesn't work". I say this because it seems more plausible than Hinata disagreeing, but then admitting that she can't use the Byakugan properly.

 

[Narutohokage324]

It's an unnecessary statement. We saw that Sakura broke them out, so it wasn't to tell us that it was her, but rather to tell the reader that without her they would have stayed in the genjutsu. It's why Shikamaru says that they would still be in the genjutsu otherwise.

See that's exactly what bugs me. Is that Sakura, nor any of them at this point have actual feats of being under a Genjutsu (high levels or hell even moderate levels) and releasing themselves . Funny enough only Naruto has panels of him actually trying to escape Itachi's Genjutsu in early part one shippuden. I doubt the readers cared though.

You're right, the writers aren't explaining why it happened, they're just saying that if it hadn't they would still be in the genjutsu.

This is exactly what leads to a major block between the movie, and the manga. I thought because it would be the first Canon movie, they would actually illustrate what was going on. It was the quite opposite of how it was in the manga. Instead of explaining why A turned into B. They force it like it is true, but when the manga exactly contradicts with the statement. It forms a line. So you are either forced to believe what is true, or look into the manga. Which why I preferred statements from the manga itself, than a movie that was not created for a serious storyline, but merely a storyline about love.

T

hink of it this way. Geez, we almost died, thank goodness jimmy had a car so we could get away. In this case we see that without Jimmy, they would have died. It's the same concept for Sakura. She's Jimmy and Shikamaru is saying that without her they would still be in the genjutsu.

I completely understand, but I see her almost as a plot device for that scene exactly. It is like they gave her feats that were never even showcased in the manga. Which brings back to my statement above about that line and how it differs from the actual canon portion of actually being canon. The weirdest part is that logically Le Sauce, because it is a dream, they ALL should have known it was a Genjutsu. It was almost as if they were saying Sakura was resistant to the entire Genjutsu and was not affected, but even Naruto has better chakra control feats than her, showing that he would have had no trouble in breaking free out of that Genjutsu itself. Which brings up another confusing line.

Sure, it's a retcon and it makes little sense, but so does Kurama getting out, and so does Naruto not using his full strength. But the movie is canon, and we can only interpret what is said. From what is said, Naruto wouldn't be able to break out.

I do not really think Naruto removing a chakra Kurama out of his body (which later turns into a flesh Kurama) makes clear sense, but if they illustrated why it happened I would believe it. The problem with the Genjutsu scene itself is that Shikmaru states that without "Sakura" they would have been stuck in that Genjutsu. Implying that she would be the only one to break them out, but that does not quite make sense. For Naruto's case because we actually saw him in the Genjutsu, he obviously knew it was. I remember him contemplating on what was actually happening before he got into Hinata's memories.

It was the fact that Naruto never tried to escape from it. Once someone realizes that is a Genjutsu, they will automatically kai out, correct? Naruto's feats with his chakra are by far put him at number one. Which brings to the conclusion (other than plot) is that he wanted to stay, personally. That's exactly what it seemed like because he never struggled to go out. It was for Hinata afterall.

For the reason as to why Kurama could not break him out or did not. Since they never showed anyone using chakra disruption on Naruto besides Sakura, it leads to a humongous hole the story itself. We all know that PerfectJin can break out of the Genjutsu, but we also have to see it happening too.

As well, think of Kurama getting out. It goes against the entire manga, but it happened, and since it happened it's entirely possible now.

I highly doubt these things will be ever shown again. That's the real problem here, considering the next movie will be written, directed, and produced by Kishimoto.

 

[LeSauce]

See that's exactly what bugs me. Is that Sakura, nor any of them at this point have actual feats of being under a Genjutsu (high levels or hell even moderate levels) and releasing themselves . Funny enough only Naruto has panels of him actually trying to escape Itachi's Genjutsu in early part one shippuden. I doubt the readers cared though.


This is exactly what leads to a major block between the movie, and the manga. I thought because it would be the first Canon movie, they would actually illustrate what was going on. It was the quite opposite of how it was in the manga. Instead of explaining why A turned into B. They force it like it is true, but when the manga exactly contradicts with the statement. It forms a line. So you are either forced to believe what is true, or look into the manga. Which why I preferred statements from the manga itself, than a movie that was not created for a serious storyline, but merely a storyline about love.

T
I completely understand, but I see her almost as a plot device for that scene exactly. It is like they gave her feats that were never even showcased in the manga. Which brings back to my statement above about that line and how it differs from the actual canon portion of actually being canon. The weirdest part is that logically Le Sauce, because it is a dream, they ALL should have known it was a Genjutsu. It was almost as if they were saying Sakura was resistant to the entire Genjutsu and was not affected, but even Naruto has better chakra control feats than her, showing that he would have had no trouble in breaking free out of that Genjutsu itself. Which brings up another confusing line.


I do not really think Naruto removing a chakra Kurama out of his body (which later turns into a flesh Kurama) makes clear sense, but if they illustrated why it happened I would believe it. The problem with the Genjutsu scene itself is that Shikmaru states that without "Sakura" they would have been stuck in that Genjutsu. Implying that she would be the only one to break them out, but that does not quite make sense. For Naruto's case because we actually saw him in the Genjutsu, he obviously knew it was. I remember him contemplating on what was actually happening before he got into Hinata's memories.

It was the fact that Naruto never tried to escape from it. Once someone realizes that is a Genjutsu, they will automatically kai out, correct? Naruto's feats with his chakra are by far put him at number one. Which brings to the conclusion (other than plot) is that he wanted to stay, personally. That's exactly what it seemed like because he never struggled to go out. It was for Hinata afterall.

For the reason as to why Kurama could not break him out or did not. Since they never showed anyone using chakra disruption on Naruto besides Sakura, it leads to a humongous hole the story itself. We all know that PerfectJin can break out of the Genjutsu, but we also have to see it happening too.


I highly doubt these things will be ever shown again. That's the real problem here, considering the next movie will be written, directed, and produced by Kishimoto.

New information is always put above old information. That's something that I find to be true, and it clears up a lot of things. This is seen and used when comics like DC change everything and make that canon. This was seen with the new 52. Like you said, it makes little to no sense, and with that I agree. The movie sucks and Kishimoto never should have made it canon.

None of this would be a problem if he hadn't. But he did. Kurama can now get out of Naruto's body, Naruto will now use only part of his power and Naruto now has fangirls. At least until Kishi retcons something again,

 

[Narutohokage324]

New information is always put above old information. That's something that I find to be true, and it clears up a lot of things. This is seen and used when comics like DC change everything and make that canon. This was seen with the new 52. Like you said, it makes little to no sense, and with that I agree. The movie sucks and Kishimoto never should have made it canon.

None of this would be a problem if he hadn't. But he did. Kurama can now get out of Naruto's body, Naruto will now use only part of his power and Naruto now has fangirls.

XD

That's why some of the points become baseless when trying to debate against them because for instance someone could say:

> Naruto can remove Kurama from his body and survive
- Okay explain it

There was no explanation, you just know he can.

>Sakura has resistance to Genutsu
-Okay how does that fair against 3T, MS, and/or Rinnegan Genjutsu? Let's just add Normal, moderate, and advanced levels for the regular Genjutsu users.

No idea. This basically can be a run on considering that there was never an implied limit to how far this "resistance" went.

>Naruto cannot break out a Genjutsu?
-Okay explain it

We literally have Naruto just standing around watching the memories of Hinata not trying to break himself free, but then Plottera comes in and breaks everyone out like it was not obvious it was a genjutsu.

Yeah this movie is just about as canon as the other ones. Great job SP. No wonder Kishimoto is taking control of the next one lol

 

[LeSauce]

XD

That's why some of the points become baseless when trying to debate against them because for instance someone could say:

> Naruto can remove Kurama from his body and survive
- Okay explain it

There was no explanation, you just know he can.

>Sakura has resistance to Genutsu
-Okay how does that fair against 3T, MS, and/or Rinnegan Genjutsu? Let's just add Normal, moderate, and advanced levels for the regular Genjutsu users.

No idea. This basically can be a run on considering that there was never an implied limit to how far this "resistance" went.

>Naruto cannot break out a Genjutsu?
-Okay explain it

We literally have Naruto just standing around watching the memories of Hinata not trying to break himself free, but then Plottera comes in and breaks everyone out like it was not obvious it was a genjutsu.

Yeah this movie is just about as canon as the other ones. Great job SP. No wonder Kishimoto is taking control of the next one lol

I don't think he cares enough anymore. He saw this script and said it was good enough. I'm not really holding any high expectations for his future pojects concerning Naruto.

 

[Narutohokage324]

I don't think he cares enough anymore. He saw this script and said it was good enough. I'm not really holding any high expectations for his future pojects concerning Naruto.

Yeah it pretty much became clear after chapter 699 that he did not care for the substance of the story anymore. It went for a kid wanting to become Hokage and prove himself, to becoming an Uchiha wank season, and then ending. Still, we never even got see Naruto become Hokage. It just "happened"

Smh.

 

[Char Aznable]

OMFG this is so f*cking stupid.

It's a f*cking movie, with a contrived way for Naruto to discover the depth of Hinata's feelings in the shortest possible amount of time.