[VS] Muu, Hiruzen, Tobirama, Minato, Tsunade vs Hashirama

[Bogard]

Base hashirama still wins Mokujin is to much.

and as far as warping something just stop warping something like mokujin would not only drain would be ultimately useless because they have no ftg's in a further location besides the battlefield

The Mokujin isn't too much at all. The thing has close to no offensive capability feats

 

[KidGamer65]

He was acting as a mobile kunai, maybe I didn't post that as clearly as I could of. Both Tobirama and Minato would mark him and allow him to fly off while invisible and getting into any needed position.

Oh, that makes sense.

I guess I didn't make everything perfectly clear in my first post, then. [/QUOTE]

Oh.

Flower Tree world would be an issue...If they didn't have Hiruzen who, coupled with Tsunade, is able to comfortably make five clones and barrage them with elemental attacks to fend it off. The effects of FTW aren't instant as seen in the manga, and if Tsunade of all people has knowledge on it when she was but a child when Hashirama was around I can see Hiruzen and the others knowing of this technique, doesn't matter as even if they don't Tsunade can inform them of it quickly enough to counter the technique.

The effect of the pollen isn't the main point here. The point is the branches, which will still push them away (Thus Hashirama succeeds in not getting attacked via Hiraishin) and it will crush anyone and anything it hits. Since they all can't fly, the only ones who should escape this completely are Minato and Tobirama and Mu (If they bothered to spread tags out of its range, if not they'd get hit with the pollen) Mu would fly above. Tsunade and Hiruzen would be ensnared by the branches and killed. If they escaped that, then they would fall asleep from the pollen. They don't need to be instant, it was fast enough to knock

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Assuming Hiruzen isn't caught by the branches, he'll be knocked out cold and won't be able to counter.

The physical sensing does make the fight go into Hashirama's favor, which makes arguing that either Minato and Tobirama will get any solid hits in null. But, for the S/T barrier...Where does it say it's for projectiles alone? To my knowledge it works in a semi-familiar way to those guns in that Portal Game. I don't see why, if any Mokuton construct were to let's say strike at the team and Minato had a barrier set up, it wouldn't fall in or have part of it be teleported off if caught in the S/T Barrier [

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].

Its been shown that it acts as a wormhole (something like that) that sucks in incoming attacks completely, and then transports it to a tag. Its like trying to use a vacuum to suck in a fist as opposed to a ball.

But yeah, Hashirama would win in the end. Some things I didn't take into consideration.

Yup. Not to mention there is still Shinsuusenju.

Jubi's Bijudama was blocked by Hachibi when it was ported by Minato's S/T barrier, so no it's not for projectiles and it would not even make sense otherwise

Uh, no.

-It being blocked doesn't change the fact it was a projectile. Hachibi's body isn't strong enough to completely block and halt the movement of the Juubi's Bijuu dama, not when a weaker Bijuu Dama from B and Minato sent the Gedo Mazo flying backwards a few dozen meters.

S/T Barrier opens up a wormhole, sucks in the incoming attack, and sends it elsewhere.

SM Madara is inferred to be somewhat faster than Hashirama.

Madara noted that in life, Tobirama was known to be the fastest shinobi around, putting him above Hashirama in that aspect. Yet in his confrontation against SM Madara, he wasn't quite able to land a blow on him - this tells us that he was faster than Tobirama and consequently, Hashirama.

That was attributed to Tobirama not being able to unleash his full power. [

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] The heavens smiled upon him, by having the Senju brothers revived below full power.

Sensing isn't a great factor in this match, as Tobirama managed to get behind Juubito twice, who was an acute enough sensor to pick up on Sasuke building up chakra in his eye.

Not only is regular chakra sensing inferior to Sage Sensing. Tobirama managed to mark Juubito, at the cost of half his body, before he was aware of what he was doing. Only reason why he was able to get behind him.

Sensing is a large factor in this match up.

 

[Unorthodox]

The Mokujin isn't too much at all. The thing has close to no offensive capability feats

wood spikes are enough

 

[Bronze]

Reaction time doesn't increase being at full power.​

 

[KidGamer65]

Reaction time doesn't increase being at full power.​

Everything is affected by being at less than full power. Go look at Tobirama in Part 1. He wasn't at full power either. Are you telling me that his reaction and speed was the same? Cause they clearly weren't.

Not to mention Madara already attributed his inferiority in speed to him not being at full power.

 

[Bogard]

Uh, no.

-It being blocked doesn't change the fact it was a projectile. Hachibi's body isn't strong enough to completely block and halt the movement of the Juubi's Bijuu dama, not when a weaker Bijuu Dama from B and Minato sent the Gedo Mazo flying backwards a few dozen meters.

S/T Barrier opens up a wormhole, sucks in the incoming attack, and sends it elsewhere.

Ah you're right. After re-reading the chapter i noticed it didn't last on Hachibi that long, but how do you explain the fact it vanished instantly then? Normally if it really sucked in incoming attacks, it would have slowly and surely absorbed the attack, not instantly

wood spikes are enough

Something Kakashi could easily dodge is never hiting speedsters like Tobirama or Minato. Not to mention he never showed the technique to begin with

 

[KidGamer65]

Ah you're right. After re-reading the chapter i noticed it didn't last on Hachibi that long, but how do you explain the fact it vanished instantly then? Normally if it really sucked in incoming attacks, it would have slowly and surely absorbed the attack, not instantly

No idea. I believe its S/T Barrier, but none of the associated markings were shown. However, even though those markings weren't shown, everything that happened in that scene is completely different from how S/T Barrier was originally shown to us.

So I'm genuinely confused on that.

 

[ARGUS]

Hashirama wins this high diff
I'll elaborate if need be

 

[Bronze]

Everything is affected by being at less than full power. Go look at Tobirama in Part 1. He wasn't at full power either. Are you telling me that his reaction and speed was the same? Cause they clearly weren't.

Not to mention Madara already attributed his inferiority in speed to him not being at full power.

Power is the ability to perform something. Reaction is seeing an attack and intercept it. It's got nothing to do with power. It's acute and skills. It doesn't get affected by power, unless you say FTG made him slower, when FTG teleports instantly. No, power has nothing to do with reaction, speed, physical strength and so on. It only made his Ninjutsu weaker.

No, Madara said that because he gained a power that made him far above, hence why he adds ''there is difference in our skill''. Also, Tobirama said they were virtually at full power, so barely there is difference between his Edo Tensie and living version.​

 

[Unorthodox]

Something Kakashi could easily dodge is never hiting speedsters like Tobirama or Minato. Not to mention he never showed the technique to begin with

kakashi could not easily dodge those wood spikes. With bushin fighting minato below plus the wood forest he is going to slip up not to mention obito only used it from the juubi hands mokujin is entirely contructed of wood he can use it in multi places on the mokujin's body.

Minato never showned a bijuu dama barrage yet you think he can do it? also hashirama has never shown the pollen world but you had nothing to say when i brought that up

 

[KidGamer65]

Power is the ability to perform something. Reaction is seeing an attack and intercept it. It's got nothing to do with power. It's acute and skills. It doesn't get affected by power, unless you say FTG made him slower, when FTG teleports instantly. No, power has nothing to do with reaction, speed, physical strength and so on. It only made his Ninjutsu weaker.​

Wrong. You are using your own definition of power here. Its already a fact that not being at full power affects everything, no clue why you gave me this reply when I already gave you an example.

-Tobirama is faster than Old Hiruzen, yet Old Hiruzen defeated him in Close quarters and sealed him.

-Hashirama is on par with Madara when it comes to speed and reaction and CQC ability, yet Hiruzen defeated him in close quarters and sealed him away.

Anyone clearly reading this manga knows that Edo zombies not being at full power affects EVERYTHING. Not just Ninjutsu.

No, Madara said that because he gained a power that made him far above, hence why he adds ''there is difference in our skill''. Also, Tobirama said they were virtually at full power, so barely there is difference between his Edo Tensie and living version.

Wrong. Madara clearly said that they can't bring out their true strength, meaning that there is an apparent difference. The difference in their skill doesn't refute anything. Madara got new powers and Tobirama got weaker.

 

[Demonic.]

Hashirama can heal all his wounds without hand signs. Hashirama wins.

 

[Bronze]

Wrong. You are using your own definition of power here. Its already a fact that not being at full power affects everything, no clue why you gave me this reply when I already gave you an example.

-Tobirama is faster than Old Hiruzen, yet Old Hiruzen defeated him in Close quarters and sealed him.

-Hashirama is on par with Madara when it comes to speed and reaction and CQC ability, yet Hiruzen defeated him in close quarters and sealed him away.

Anyone clearly reading this manga knows that Edo zombies not being at full power affects EVERYTHING. Not just Ninjutsu.

Fail in your part. Orochimaru was the one controlling their minds, therefore, controlling their actions, therefore, unable to utilize their stats, skills and abilities to their full potential.​

Wrong. Madara clearly said that they can't bring out their true strength, meaning that there is an apparent difference. The difference in their skill doesn't refute anything. Madara got new powers and Tobirama got weaker.

Like I said above, fail in your part. Madara said they can't bring out true and then he adds ''But there is a gulf difference in our skills'', meaning Madara is talking that what he gained made him better than Tobirama. Tobirama ALREADY SAID THEIR POWER IS VIRTUALLY THE SAME AS THEY WERE IN THEIR LIVING COUNTERPARTS. Virtually means barely means there is almost no difference. Tobirama's words about his power > Madara's words about Tobirama's power. Nothing to discuss here since I have Tobirama's statement on my side about his strength.​

 

[Unorthodox]

Wrong. You are using your own definition of power here. Its already a fact that not being at full power affects everything, no clue why you gave me this reply when I already gave you an example.

-Tobirama is faster than Old Hiruzen, yet Old Hiruzen defeated him in Close quarters and sealed him.

-Hashirama is on par with Madara when it comes to speed and reaction and CQC ability, yet Hiruzen defeated him in close quarters and sealed him away.

Anyone clearly reading this manga knows that Edo zombies not being at full power affects EVERYTHING. Not just Ninjutsu.



Wrong. Madara clearly said that they can't bring out their true strength, meaning that there is an apparent difference. The difference in their skill doesn't refute anything. Madara got new powers and Tobirama got weaker.

kidgamer dont feed his trolls just dont

 

[JIRAIYA perv]

come on Hashirama is seriously outnumbered here and the quality of the Shinobi's he's up against ....................

 

[KidGamer65]

Fail in your part. Orochimaru was the one controlling their minds, therefore, controlling their actions, therefore, unable to utilize their stats, skills and abilities to their full potential.

Wrong. They were weaker because they were revived weaker. Stated by Tobirama after he was revived the second time. Orochimaru controlling them won't drastically decrease their speed, strength, and overall CQC ability.

Fail on your part. A big one.

Like I said above, fail in your part. Madara said they can't bring out true and then he adds ''But there is a gulf difference in our skills'', meaning Madara is talking that what he gained made him better than Tobirama. Tobirama ALREADY SAID THEIR POWER IS VIRTUALLY THE SAME AS THEY WERE IN THEIR LIVING COUNTERPARTS. Virtually means barely means there is almost no difference. Tobirama's words about his power > Madara's words about Tobirama's parts.

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isn't at full power, nor does that mean there is a negligible difference. So there is no contradiction between Tobirama and Madara's words.

And now it seems I'm going to have to give you a reading lesson too.

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"There is a reason why you brothers can't bring out your true strength. Call it coincidence call it fate, but there is a gulf between our skills now"

Bold: Madara states that they can't bring out their true powers (FACT, don't try and deny it)

Underline: Madara states that because of the bold (Which can be called coincidence or can be called fate, doesn't really matter to him) there is a gulf between their skills now.

 

[DMT]

Team kages wins

Tobirama / Minato mark Muu to move him behind hashi
then tsunade helps him to spam big Ass jinton to finish hashirama

 

[Bronze]

Wrong. They were weaker because they were revived weaker. Stated by Tobirama after he was revived the second time. Orochimaru controlling them won't drastically decrease their speed, strength, and overall CQC ability.

Fail on your part. A big one.

Fail again. Kabuto implied he could not use Nagato's abilities to their full potential when he was controlling them. The same talisman used on Hokages under Orochimaru's control, and he could not use their skills properly. Nothing to discuss here. Power is not reaction at all. If you do not understand this, then you need to read a dictionary about what power and reactions are. Not to mention, there are no feats of Tobirama's living reactions, so until there is, it's fan-fic.​

Almost at full power isn't at full power, nor does that mean there is a negligible difference. So there is no contradiction between Tobirama and Madara's words.

And now it seems I'm going to have to give you a reading lesson too.

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Before you advice others, please go and check your own abilities first. Not only that you showed your lacking at English, but inability to define words. And trying to teach me a lesson? I have a high grade in English.

Virtually - nearly; almost.
synonyms: in effect, effectively, all but, more or less, practically, almost, nearly, close to, approaching, not far from, nearing, verging on, bordering on, well nigh, nigh on, just about, as good as, essentially, in essence, in practical terms, for all practical purposes, to all intents and purposes, in all but name, as near as dammit; roughly, approximately, not quite; plus-minus; informalpretty much, pretty nearly, pretty well

Read the definition before you even post. Madara's words did not have ''virtually', therefore, Madara was unaware of how much power Edo Tobirama had compared to his living counterpart. Last time I am going to say this, TOBIRAMA'S WORDS ABOUT HIS POWER > MADARA'S WORDS ABOUT TOBIRAMA'S POWER.​

Bold: Madara states that they can't bring out their true powers (FACT, don't try and deny it)

Underline: Madara states that because of the bold (Which can be called coincidence or can be called fate, doesn't really matter to him) there is a gulf between their skills now.

Irrelevant and bias, since you're using a different character for your argument. Tobirama knows about his power more than Madara knows, and Tobirama said his Edo Tensie's power is ALMOST same as his living being, whereas Madata didn't know how much power they had.​

 

[Bogard]

This is the viz

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"The fact you've upped the precision of edo tensei since last time would be your downfall....."

Firstly notice how he says Orochimaru upgraded his skills with the edo tensei technique

And he adds that

"Now that we've been revived close to our original power"

So no, Tobirama's statement doesn't contradict Madara's

Though the difference is negligeable according to Tobirama and i'm really iffy concerning the physical stat differences when you notice that a Edo Madara who was supposed to be revived stronger than he was alive was matching Edo Hashirama in Taijutsu the same way like they were alive

 

[Bronze]

This is the viz

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"The fact you've upped the precision of edo tensei since last time would be your downfall....."

Firstly notice how he says Orochimaru upgraded his skills with the edo tensei technique

And he adds that

"Now that we've been revived close to our original power"

So no, Tobirama's statement doesn't contradict Madara's

Though the difference is negligeable according to Tobirama and i'm really iffy concerning the physical stat differences when you notice that a Edo Madara who was supposed to be revived stronger than he was alive was matching Edo Hashirama in Taijutsu the same way like they were alive

Did Madara say how much power Edo Tobirama had? Oh wait he didn't. It doesn't even matter. Close means virtually, which means barely difference. The last but not least, power /=/ reaction and physical attributes. This should be very basic. It was what I originally argued.