Kishi intended sakura to be hated.
- Thread starter NarutoKage2
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NarutoKage2
Active member
What logical fallacies, why dont you mention any of them in your post? Oh thats right because then you'd get owned since there werent any. You simply failed to comprehend what i was saying. Whats truly amusing is that you havent once mentioned the topic of debate in your entire post, perhaps having your stupidity exposed would be too much to deal with? Lmao.
What wording did i change exactly? Why dont you point it out to me please, instead of throwing around accusations.
I also think sometime he wanted that the leople actually hate sakura
He knows better than everyone else that sakura is alongside with naruto and sasuke the main charackter
Naruto and Sasuke always got some power ups but sakura was always like hmm forgotten by kishi
He knows better than everyone else that sakura is alongside with naruto and sasuke the main charackter
Naruto and Sasuke always got some power ups but sakura was always like hmm forgotten by kishi
Let's take a look, shall we?
In this quote, you went against the manga panels and drew your own inference with complete disregard to the context of the scene. Let's go back to my response the first time around:
Her reaction of depression came as a direct result of hearing the guy say "He must be a really great guy if you're in love with him." If one were to employ any small amount of reading comprehension, it would not be difficult at all to infer the meaning here.
She is depressed not because she can't have Sasuke, but rather because she knows the type of person he has become and feels guilty about her feeling for him.
In this following quote, you changed up your argument into something that agreed with the "she feels bad for having feelings for him" statement, and played it off from there. In response to your going back to your saying once again that she would get better character development if she were to stop loving him, I had suggested that you return to my original post in which I explain why Kishimoto needs his Team 7 love triangle to continue, and why it is inferred that she will get over her feeling for Sasuke in her upcoming closing development.
Next time, instead of getting so ticked off and resorting to insults, why don't we try putting two and two together?Lol
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MadaIzaChan
Member
Honord Sage
Active member
So long as Sakura has Her hangup on Sasuke,She won't grow in Character and spirit no mater how many jutsu She learns. And levying it to Sasuke and Naruto to decide is a cop out. She needs to resolve Her troubles or She will slowly fade away into obscurity. I don't know if Kishi has decided that this is Her faith or He plans even a small growth for Her. Sines right now He has relegated Her to the back of the Manga Bus so to speak.
NarutoKage2
Active member
You fail at comprehension. Why would she feel depressed about the type of person Sasuke has become? Was tsunade ever shown depressed about the type of person Orochimaru had become? The only reason that there would be any depression there would be because she has feelings for him, and that sadness was an acknowledgement of those feelings. You need to learn to read, as in not just skim through a sentence but to really read into it.If you look at the page before that one :
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Sakura says 'thank you...but there's someone else.I..'
Then in the manga panel you showed he says 'he must be a really great guy if you're in love with him'. Then she gets depressed. Initially, when she rebuked him she clarified to us readers that she loves someone else. Next chapter first page we know its Sasuke due to the image. Then she gets depressed because she realizes that Sasuke is'nt a great guy, in fact he's full of evil, evil that even tried to kill her. But she does't care about that, obviously or she would'nt still love him which she does as proven above. She loves him, she does'nt care that he's evil(read:the type of person he's become). SO just why exactly is she depressed?? Don't give me the bullshit 'oh its the type of person he's become, she's guilty about her feelings'. SASUKE TRIED TO KILL SAKURA BEFORE THIS, SHE SAID SHE LOVED HIM AFTER THAT.
Its not caps rage, i want you to notice this point. If he's a murderer who'll not hesitate to kill her and has shown it, and she still loves him, do you really think she gives a damn about the type of person he has become? Its NOT a feeling she wants to overcome either as you ignorantly state, proven when she says there's someone else to that patient.
The only conclusion is that she still very much loves sasuke and would like to be with him despite his evil, when reminded of his evil by statements like the one that guy made she gets depressed not because sasuke is evil, but because subconsciously she realizes how difficult her dream of attaining sasuke is. If she was just sad that he's evil and she regrets her feelings toward him, why would she say she loves someone else? In other words, she's depressed because she can't have him. Get it now?
Another fail on your part. Are you sure you know how to read? As i said above Sakura IS depressed because she has feelings for Sasuke, Sasuke does'nt give a sh!t about those feelings, so therefore she can't get him, and is reminded of this when other people make statements like 'he must be a great guy etc' therefore she's depressed.
Do i really have to type it all out and spoon feed it to you(like in the quote above), is shortening the sentence too much for your tiny brain to process?>_>
Piece of honest advice: learn to read between the lines.
I'm not ticked off but i am amused by how ignorant your post was.
Maybe we can put two and two together, if you learn how to read.
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Again with the anger induced insults Lol. In case you've failed to notice, very single one of my previous posts have been based off the fact that she indeed loves Sasuke, so I'm not sure where you were going with that first paragraph.
As to your statements:
But she doesn't care about that, obviously or she wouldn't still love him which she does as proven above.
If he's a murderer who'll not hesitate to kill her and has shown it, and she still loves him, do you really think she gives a damn about the type of person he has become? Its NOT a feeling she wants to overcome either as you ignorantly state, proven when she says there's someone else to that patient.
(Once again, my posts have been based off the fact that she still loves Sasuke, so I'm not entirely sure why you felt the need to prove that.)
Perhaps I should give you a brief review of the Team 7 subplot. During their first reunion in the Sai arc, Naruto and Sakura come face to face with Sasuke while he is still under the tutelage of Orochimaru. They believe, from their past experiences in Part 1, that Orochimaru is what is influencing Sasuke to be evil, that Sasuke is not responsible for his wrongdoings. So when they hear that Sasuke has killed Orochimaru during the Itachi Pursuit arc, they assume that Sasuke has come to see the light and rid himself of his evil influence and will soon return to Konoha. They then become confused and exasperated when they hear that Sasuke has chosen to remain an outlaw to continue and hunt Itachi. They still retain their image of Sasuke as an ultimately good guy who has been placed under negative influence. That is why they are so devastated when they hear post-Pain Invasion arc that Sasuke as apparently joined Akatsuki; they can't understand nor accept that Sasuke has chosen to become so evil. Their second reunion with in the Kage Summit arc is their firsthand confirmation that Sasuke has indeed gone off the deep end chosen to go the way of evil. It is here the Sakura finally comes to realize the kind of person Sasuke has become.
With that in mind, Sakura does indeed give a damn about the person he has become. She has now witness for herself how morally deprived Sasuke has become and that is why she has begun to feel bad for her feelings towards him.
With that, when you say:
Here is where you once again make inferences that diverge from the context of the manga itself. As I've explained, Sakura's image of Sasuke has just been shattered a mere week ago, as she and the rest of Team 7 have witnessed the person Sasuke has now become. And so let's look at the love-letter nin's statement (and I quote for the third time):
"He must be a really great guy if you're in love with him."
Emphasis on the "if you're in love with him." Sakura becomes depressed because she know he isn't such a "great guy," and she feels bad about her love for him. As exemplified by Kishi's parallel development of Ino's own feelings towards Sasuke in later chapters, their love for Sasuke is not a "positive love." That is what Sakura is coming to realize, and that is what makes her depressed, not the fact that she can't have Sasuke for herself.
Even though I have just addressed such points now, let's take a final look at your closing statements:
Sakura IS depressed because she has feelings for Sasuke, Sasuke does'nt give a sh!t about those feelings, so therefore she can't get him, and is reminded of this when other people make statements like 'he must be a great guy etc' therefore she's depressed.
Here is where you again fail to make a solid connection: She can't get him <=/=> She is reminded of this when other people make statements like "he must be a great guy." As I've just explained, she is not depressed because she can't have him for herself; she is depressed about her love for Sasuke, knowing the person that he has become.
Please try to avoid openly insulting people who hold an opposing view in future, lest you make yourself out to be immature and short-fused. *_*
NarutoKage2
Active member
Im on my mobile so cant really respond properly but here goes:
it seems that you are unaware of two dimensions of sakuras, well how should i say, lets say resolve if you will.
Firstl there are her feelings toward sasuke, we both agree that she loves him so no argument here. Whats critical to this debate is the 2nd point, i.e what she openly states with regard to them.
Let me give you an example to explain this point. Suppose i resolve to be a good runner. I do feel pain when i run great distances, i feel bad about that pain but i try to overcome it. Maybe i plan to run the marathon, should someone ask me if i plan to run, if i were to say 'nah dont think i will' . Then that person says it takes great stamina for that. Il feel bad cuz i know ive trained my own stamina immensely.
What this shows i weakness of resolve and will. If i truly want to overcome the pain of running great distances, id state it to be so, even if i feel pain i know i have to face it as its the correct thing to do.
Its a fairly difficuult example to understand but what it means is this:
If sakura stands as a shinobi of the leaf, which she does and her opinion on sasuke is that hes evil, as realized in the kage summit arc, then she has no choice but to reject sasuke and her feelings for him, much as itachi rejected his feelings for his family. However, when she literally declares that she loves him, as she did to that shinobi, think about what it means. Sasuke openly declared his wish to destroy konoha, he killed the leafs acting hokage so theres no doubt who he is. Sakura knows this, she still loves him . Basically she wishes sasuke leaves the path of evil, so that her desire to be with him can be fulfilled. This isnt possible because sasuke is evil, so shes depressed. Because hes evil and that means she cant have him.Thats whats really happening here. So my original point stands.
And also she lacks the will to overcome her feelings either, painting her in a very negative light indeed, as was the original point of this topic.
Maybe if you didnt act like a smartass and tried to understand this interpretation i wouldnt flame.
I dont think so, clearly sakura is the reason why they banned character bashing here in NV whereas in the lots other forums sakura is a true goddess, but i dont think that forum exists anymore, btw i cannot buy that fact sakura created to be hated, she only existed as a reason a lot of people getting ban; perma or temporary.
I understand quite well what you're trying to interpret here, the problem being that I believe your interpretation is misguided.
To summarize the Team 7 subplot once again, think of it this way: You spend your entire childhood idolizing this one perfect guy like everyone else. This image of him transcends throughout the time you spend on the same team with him. He's always distant and prone to brushing others off, but in the end you still believe that he's a good guy. There are times here and there where you witness him almost going bad, but it has always happened under the influence of others, and in the end he has always returned to the good and thus preserving your image of him (think Sasuke's Cursed Seal state in the Forest of Death and how it subsided). When he does actually leave, you know that he was persuaded by the same evil that influenced him before (Orochimaru), and so your idealized image of him as an ultimately good guy is preserved. When you next meet him, he is seen with this same evil influence (Orochimaru), and thus and your belief that he is a good guy whose judgement is clouded continues. That is why you are confused as to why he has not returned to the good side after you hear that he has rid himself of this evil influence. You are then further confused as to why he would deliberately choose to be on the bad side (Akatsuki), but at this point, you have not seen for yourself what he has become, and so your idealized image of him remains. It is not until you finally witness him planning choosing to commit such acts as trying to kill you and every single person who was once close to him that your once ideal image of him is finally shattered. That is when Sakura first starts thinking back on her feelings for him, knowing that he is not this "great guy" that she once believed herself. Do you expect her feelings for him, which she has held on to all these years (with encouragement of faith from Naruto, by the way), to suddenly dissipate? It's the first time that she's reflecting upon the fact that it can no longer be denied that he has truly gone bad, and thus it's the first time that she's reflecting upon her feelings for him. Again, think Ino's development with regards to her love for Sasuke. Their love is not a "positive love," as they are coming to realize after all this time. The scene does not pertain to her sadness that he's out of reach: she already has faith, as with the rest of Konoha 11 and Kakashi, that Naruto has the ability to bring Sasuke back. Rather, it's an introspection of her own personal feelings.
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NarutoKage2
Active member
Thats all fine and dandy, but what this post ignores yet again is the 'why' in all of this. Why does Sakura feel depressed the way she does? The team 7 analogy is irrelevant to this discussion:do you recall when the young boy from the waterfall village asked naruto post pain arc where sasuke was? Did you see how lightly naruto brushed off that question? Narutos stance toward sasuke is a separate topic, and its markedly different from what sakura shows. Its a repeat of Hashirama and madaras friendship....
Anyways, back to the topic. If sasuke has both shown an unwillingness to return to konoha and abandon his vengeance AND a disinterest in sakura even when he was in the leaf, just on what basis is sakura stating that theres someone else...? Its obvious that, given reality as shown in the manga, sakura has 2 problems that she WISHES get sorted out:
1. Sasuke returns to konoha and abandons his hatred.
2. Sasuke starts to like her
Both of those are undeniable facts, just look at the history of the manga . So when something highlights the reality of the situation, as that patients comment did, the truth of those 2 points come crashing home, and sakura gets depressed. Why is the 2nd point critical here? Because naruto already resolved to go the full distance, to put his life on the line to bring sasuke back, infront of sakura. Sakura tacitly agreed and placed her faith in that situation to work itself out, so the first point, at least in her mind was taken care of, by naruto. With this in mind, when that patient says 'he must be a great guy....' she ought not to let the first point bog her down, she already said she had faith in both naruto and sasuke, besides her memories and experiences of team 7 and as you pointed out the fact that sasuke was always manipulated by someone else into acting evil should give her confidence that if not 'great' he isnt the opposite either. But more importantly, people consider what they love to be great, even if others don't. So if sakura feels love toward sasuke after everything, to her mind that makes him great. So Why is she depressed by that comment by that patient, indeed??? Does she consider what she LOVES to not be great???Logic and common sense says no, to her mind sasuke is 'a great guy' thus her love for him. So whyy the sudden depression?
Answer: the second point/problem.
Seriously, there is a reason why people from 95% of such diverse fanbases as naruto, sasuke, oro, itachi and minato all hate sakura.
Uh oh, here is where you made a false assumption based on your observations of fanbases and forums here in the west. Are you aware of the discrepancy between Sakura's popularity among western demographics versus back east?
In most Asian countries, where we are generally more exposed to anime/manga tropes and are more aware of the concepts of a Tsundere character such as Sakura, the amount of dislike towards her are insignificant when compared to the levels in the west. In many eastern countries, my home country included, Sakura ranks as a popular character among readers and merchandise involving her have widespread sales. And especially among the pairing fanbases in the east, she is also one of the most popular characters as far as heterosexual relationships go, with pairings involving her (SasuSaku, NaruSaku, etc.) being the center of much heated debate among fans (which in itself may contribute to why Kishimoto continues to draw out the Team 7 love triangle beyond story reasons: a substantial number of fans indeed watch for their favorite pairings and would drop the show if their respective pairing was no longer viable).
Kishimoto did not "intend" for western fanbases to hate Sakura, as you are trying to insinuate with your thread; they choose to hate her based on western predisposition to certain character traits and roles, along general unfamiliarity with anime/manga tropes.
As to her feelings for Sasuke in the overarching scope of the Team 7 story, or even beyond that in a typical anime/manga love triangle, you have to remain aware of how common this type of situation is in terms of plot and character development: the girls feelings and wishes for the "other guy" will remain existent even towards the end of the entire series, even if it was never justified in the first place.
As to the rest of your post, the point has been missed once again. Sakura believed that Sasuke defected under the deceptive influence of Orochimaru, hence preserving her idealistic image of him and believing, just like Naruto, that he was in need of rescue. These beliefs are retained all the way up to the Kage Summit arc, when she and the rest of Team 7 witness firsthand the terrible acts that Sasuke is willing to commit of his own volition for the sake of revenge, that he is consciously choosing the path he walks on. Sakura has faith because she believes Naruto and Sasuke have a bond strong enough to bring Sasuke back from this path that he chose to walk. The Team 7 reunion itself marks the event through which her previous image of Sasuke is shattered, and is the first time that her idealistic love for him is consciously brought into reflection and questioning. Again, direct connection: The patient assumes that they guy whom she loves must be a great guy, but Sakura now knows that is not truly the case, hence her guiltiness.
People consider what they love to be great? Under which circumstances are you making such a sweeping generalization?
Do people who know of their addiction to caffeine think that coffee is great?
Do people who are addicted to cigarettes think of cigarettes as great?
Do people stuck in abusive relationships think of their significant other as great? (I eagerly await for you to say yes here)
And in this situation: do people whose feelings for another person have become increasingly unjustified view their love as great?
I agree with Baguette’s interpretation of Sakura’s feelings.
Sakura is at stage where she is very much still in love with Sasuke but that doesn’t mean she is proud of those feelings, she is ashamed of her feeling to Sasuke as Kishi pointed out in that panel of her getting depressed directly after her patient made that comment of “he must be a great guy”.
Sakura does not think Sasuke is a “great guy” she thinks the opposite, but still remains in love with him. In fact when she went out to kill him it was out of love not hate she loved him so much that she couldn’t bare seeing him destroy and tarnish himself further after the Kage summit, so she recklessly and senselessly decided to go kill him.
As for the original topic, I love Sakura so If Kishi intended to make her "hated" he's failed.
Sakura is at stage where she is very much still in love with Sasuke but that doesn’t mean she is proud of those feelings, she is ashamed of her feeling to Sasuke as Kishi pointed out in that panel of her getting depressed directly after her patient made that comment of “he must be a great guy”.
Sakura does not think Sasuke is a “great guy” she thinks the opposite, but still remains in love with him. In fact when she went out to kill him it was out of love not hate she loved him so much that she couldn’t bare seeing him destroy and tarnish himself further after the Kage summit, so she recklessly and senselessly decided to go kill him.
As for the original topic, I love Sakura so If Kishi intended to make her "hated" he's failed.
rinnegan human puppet
Active member
People don't like fodder' thus sakura hated. I trully believe dis bitch fodder shes useless.. Shit i dont like ??
NarutoKage2
Active member
That first paragraph makes no sense at all since i'm from an eastern country, not a western one, and i hate her to the core.
If its usual with manga love triangles , it does'nt excuse it from scrutiny and criticism from the fans of the show like myself. I don't have enough time to argue the rest of that but i will say this:
Most of your post goes into pointlessly lengthy and annoying tangents that have nothing to do with this debate or the points i raised, so if you decide to respond to this kindly stay on topic to what we're arguing about in the first place>_>
Its not a sweeping generalization. As a former smoker, YES to the mind of the chainsmoker, smoking is great. Emphasize on the 'to the mind of the smoker' bit. This is because the relative disadvantage is outweighed by the advantage of doing that specific activity, i.e smoking or w.e . To say that its a terrible activity, its a horrible thing to do and YET to continue to do it is not assuming responsibility for your actions. Its like saying that hey, don't blame the vandal that broke in yur house, raped your wife and stole your money cuz he later goes onto say 'its a terrible thing to do something like that'. Yeah, but fck that, if its so terrible than why did he choose to do it in the first place?? People are what they do, not what they claim things to be like. If someone does something of their own free will, they are responsible for those actions and whatever consequences they bring.Both the good and the bad. Full stop. Its does'nt matter even a fcking iota what those people claim to think about their own actions, what matters are the actions themselves. If someone is in an abusive relationship of their own free will, and continues to stay in it despite having the option of walking away, yes they do consider their significant other as great, but once again what's great to one person may not be great to another.
So if Sakura claims to love sasuke, yes to her mind he is great. This 'great' need not be the kind of great interpreted by other people, but for her it is. So her depression has no other basis than her inability to attain what she desires.