[VS] Kisame and Kakuzu Vs Deidara and Sasori

[Zexion~]

GSB, and Kakuzu's elemental attacks, which should allow Kakuzu to stumble upon Deidara's elemental weakness. Not sure about Kakuzu, but Kisame swimming deep under ground avoids anything and everything the opposition has to offer. He can then emerge from different angles with Mizu Bunshin clones equipped with 10% of Kisame's power (Keep in mind what 30% can achieve), and attack from different angles.

If the jutsu softens the earth why wouldn't Kakuzu be able to follow? Especially since he's already shown arboreal abilities.

Sending hearts along with those clones would be more helpful.

 

[Forbidden Technique]

If the jutsu softens the earth why wouldn't Kakuzu be able to follow? Especially since he's already shown arboreal abilities.

Sending hearts along with those clones would be more helpful.

I mean, yeah I guess, if he could swim and hold his breath long enough. Subterranean Voyage turns the area in the ground that Kisame is moving in, into liquid.

Yeah, add Kisame's suiton and Kakuzu's jutsu from a wide range of angles would put a whole lot of pressure on them.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

No, all of Kakuzu jutsu when he's separated from his masks are what require hand signs. When merged with his body no hand signs are required.

Using Domu refutes this, as he was using partial Domu tillChoji's Spike Ball attack. Mask being separated is also irrelevant on how certain ninjutsu is require for release.

"Smaller versions" don't matter because they are the same jutsu. Where were non hand seal jutsu shown to be associated with smaller or partial versions of the jutsu either.

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. Kakuzu clearly showed needing hand signs for full version of the attack, and never again showed to output the same strength without signs.

But this is an irrelevant point regardless because Kakuzu is more than fast enough to react with a hand sign.

Forming the hand sign to built that chakra needed for the jutsu is another thing. Him forming the hand sign is as useful as Chiyo using her hands to block. So I have no reason to believe the Futon will be released before the attack speed already reached Kakuzu.

Samehada is a sentient sword. Not a living sword. Swords do not die. They can be destroyed, but they obviously don't die. So Iron Sand won't kill anything. If you think Samehada is alive then you are going to have to support why. Sasuke's CS2 wings can block the impact of the strongest C2. He's not going to survive a barrage of C2 since they get stronger each time he uses it but they can comfortably evade C2 and Deidara has a limit to how many he can use so we can forget about that being a deciding factor in this fight.

C2 doesn't create craters so we can also forget about it hitting the ground and damaging anybody underground.

Sentient or living, whatever honestly. All I know is that the sword has its own anatomy (manipulate chakra via absorption tech, teeth, tongue, saliva, and a blood stream). And I have every reason to believe poison will get the best of it, nullifying its usage for the match.

Sasuke never blocked a direct hit though, as Deidara blow it early so Sasuke wont fly away. The deciding factor is the team getting box in with C2, mines, and IS.

Lol dude might want to check that fight out again. Not only doesnt it make logical sense:

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.

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Mine crater [

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] for comparison.

No, my premise is having him and Kakuzu evade, block and defend until they figure out Deidara's weakness, then they kill them. Not to mention I've already mentioned what Kisame and Kakuzu can do in my post to ToshiZO. Either they hold out till Kakuzu figures out their weakness or Kisame simply uses the Water Dome while in close range with them and ends them that way. Or he doesn't even need to use Water Dome. GSB takes out either Sasori or Deidara, most likely Sasori as he has no way to reliably block it and it absorbs chakra on contact, so there goes his chakra strings and his core.

Well aware, I only paraphrase a focus point you made, to explain why Deidara sets mines without difficult interference. Holding out argument is being addressed right now. And your Tosh comment isnt relevant to me since I dont see how setting up WD even ends them when a basic ninja could simply use chakra on their feet to stay on the surface of the water. They have manga intel so nothing is so sudden or unexpected for this match. Kisame forms sign to built chakra, Team jumps, Kisame fill the location with water, Team lands on water surfaces rising up with chakra, jump off water as a platfom which = flight from there.

Have you forgotten Sand jutsu cant be absorbed via Gokage attempt to seal Madara? So Compress Iron Shell tanks GSB with ease.

Sasori can't shield him properly while he's setting up landmines. To set up landmines he has to separate himself from Sasori and his original and that's when the clone gets obliterated.

Deidara can take care of himself. Sasori isn't having any trouble creating a linear wall blocking linear element blast.

Kakuzu and Kisame aren't Deidara's clay clone.

Obviously? Clay Clone can be a split chakra version of Deidara, seeing how it created that huge C4 on its own. Dont see how that relevant in the Clone reacting to element blast no different to Kakuzu and Kisame.

Sakura is capable of knocking away Iron Sand, Atsugai is far beyond that. So yeah, no. Atsugai easily blows away any form of Iron Sand. How does it being able to pierce the earth proof that it can overpower and rip through Atsugai?

Sakura knocks away a stationary block, so I fail to see your point.

Read the scan again the shockwave was eating the earth without the Iron itself touching the ground.[

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]

Lmao do you know how small the residue from impact is? Small enough to only fit inside of Chiyo's puppet's joints. That's not enough to envelop him. This doesn't even make sense. If he wants to envelop him he'll have to have the Iron Sand expand and wrap around him after firing more towards his direction. Residue won't do a thing.

Obviously its small because literally the hand shield was in front of them. So little got in from the hit box landed. Not going to be the same scenario where Kakuzu is blocking using his whole body.

Did I say it wouldn't? It enveloping him doesn't mean that it won't expand in front of him nor does that mean it'll be too slow for him to dodge.. And no, it's not the same as any other Kazekage's sand usage. The speed hasn't shown to be on par with Gaara's, the flexibility of it hasn't been shown to be like Gaara's either.

IS speed>Gaara, have no idea what you talking about. Flexibility doesnt have to be shown when they use the same jutsu(plus the fact that it was stated it can take any shape desire by the caster while Gaara is literally limited). DB4 states Rasa copied the 3rd, while Rasa can form and make his sand as flexible too.

Let me remind you that my premise is talking about the IS thats already attached to Kakuzu.

---

Much larger than both Kisame or Kakuzu so your point is irrelevant lol

Read the chapters again please the water is clearly dark

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Pretty sure Deidara found the Sanbi via his explosions.

Again you have no point. I can make the same exact arugments in this water location: In fact Ill just give you the whole chapter:

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Lol no where is it explicitly stated that the magnetism is completely void of chakra lol but I'm not arguing this again.

Based on the fact that it has completely been converted stated in he manga. And based on the fact that Madara couldnt absorb it.

You mean when Gaara was shown Manipulating the sand after it touched Madara? Lol oh wait... was never shown. Just a majority assumption.

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Others did, and if you have no way of destroying the hearts than how do you expect to win?

Everyone established Mask are easy prey open field, and KG argued that they can be used inside Kakuzu, safe via Domu. I'm addressing this so if you want to counter it then read my post that had addressed.

The IS spikes that required a stationary Chiyo and Sakura to set up LMAO good one fam.

Its good to know you dont have an argument. Nothing here to addressed since anyone reading manga knows that it isnt require or need to a character to be stationary for its usage.

They dont need to escape it because theres no reason for them to get caught in it. I dont know why putting chakra on your feet the moment they touch the surface of the water, isnt a reliable counter to begin with.

Looks like you missed my quote.

 

[Zexion~]

I mean, yeah I guess, if he could swim and hold his breath long enough. Subterranean Voyage turns the area in the ground that Kisame is moving in, into liquid.

Yeah, add Kisame's suiton and Kakuzu's jutsu from a wide range of angles would put a whole lot of pressure on them.

I seem to recall you agreeing with me that Kakuzu has no need for breath a long time ago.

But yeah they would.

 

[NarutoX28]

Read what I'm going to type please because I can't be asked to go back and forth with someone who clearly has the reading comprehension of a 3rd grader.

Your post contains superfluous information and had you elucidated the matter on why an external water source isn’t a necessity for Kisame, then this argument wouldn’t have occurred in the first part. Fortunately, you did manage to shed some light on the matter, but had you not participated in such frivolous bickering and specified even further, then I would’ve been much more informed and would have contested your post appropriately.

The first paragraph is impertinent to the discussion because it’s just the same ole generic bickering that you’re constantly known for, so I won’t address that part. That being said, I can’t really conform to your argument when there are many glaring flaws within it. From what I observed, your premise is that even when devoid of a water source, Kisame’s still an important asset to the team because he can use various powerful Suiton including Ten Thousand Feeding Sharks and Daikodan. Unfortunately, the argument you used to substantiate that is incongruous with your premise.

If, “Water Sources are stated/shown to be used in the Manga because some Shinobi did not have the chakra or the mastery over said jutsu to produce it without controlling and enhancing pre existing water, which is why Tobirama was praised for being able to use Suiton without a water source,” then there’s absolutely no way that Kisame can use Ten Thousand Feeding Sharks and Daikodan when

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. Instead of debating under the pretense of deceiving others and improving your status, you should’ve succinctly presented and inspected your argument to ensure that there weren’t striking holes within it. Either Kisame with the Hachibi’s Chakra cannot use Ten Thousand Feeding Sharks and Daikodan without a water source or the water source improved his ability to use said techniques because the water source magnified his abilities. Pick your poison.

Smh. No offense, but you inadvertently contradicted yourself once again. Who cares if Kisame’s water source was created via his own chakra when:

1. Water Sources are used for those who did not have the chakra/mastery over said jutsu. (Your logic)
2. Suiton Dai Bakusui Shoha was the catalyst for WaterDome because Kisame couldn’t use it on his lonesome.
3. Suiton Dai Bakusui Shoha therefore served its purpose as an external water source.
4. Thus, Kisame’s water source is literally similar to any other water source.

But no, you deliberately misconstrued the manga and neglected context. The Suiton Barrier that Tobirama erected was a B-Rank technique, in other words, a Jonin level technique. The context of the situation denotes the Kages being incredible beings because they mustered techniques of such an incredible magnitude that it blew everyone away. This is even specified within the Databook:

Spoiler

Earth Release: Earth Style Wall (土遁・土流壁, Doton: Doryuu Heki)
Ninjutsu, B-rank, Defensive, Short range (0-5m)
User: Sandaime Hokage

An earthen barrier, rising up in an instant!!

This ninjutsu defends oneself against an incoming attack by creating a solid wall of earth. Chakra is converted to earth within the body and then spit out. This earth then instantly rises up and takes form. The barrier itself is also coated with chakra, making its strength incomparable to that of a normal mud wall. Because of the earth's special characteristics, the wall is highly resistant against, for instance, fire and water. Also, for a Hokage-class shinobi it is possible to create a vast volume of earth...!!

[picture of the Sandaime Hokage performing a handseal]
[picture of the Sandaime Hokage spitting out the earth]
↑→The Sandaime Hokage displays a great performance by changing his chakra into a vast volume of earth and forming it into a gigantic wall!!
↓It perfectly blocks even the fury of the Nidaime Hokage's Water Release ninjutsu!!
[picture of the Sandaime Hokage using the Earth Style Wall to protect against the Nidaime Hokage's Water Dragon Bullet]

A perfect blockade!!

Yes, emphasis is on power, not on the fact that Tobirama used a Jonin level technique without a water source.

And did I say that Water Dome would be as large? No. Everything else are jutsu that he's used before and after his fight with B so you crying about B's chakra like it's some excuse doesn't help your argument it makes you look like you don't know how to address the arguments presented in front of you without going on irrelevant tangents. :lol

My bad, let me rephrase that. Someone who struggled against Roshi and cannot hit nor challenge any of his opponents here is the epitome of uselessness.

Your Water Source nonsense has been addressed. Kisame has canonically molded more Suiton chakra than what is necessary for all his jutsu except Water Dome while at 30% of his full power. There is literally nothing to discuss here so you can stop now.

Already refuted despite having third grade level comprehension.

Unless you are going to argue something as stupid as Kisame can't use GSB, Water Dome, etc without Hachibi's chakra then no, it's not relevant. It's hilarious how children will take one instance from the Manga and try to use it to discredit a character every chance they get instead of arguing like they have some common sense.

That's where there's a mutual misunderstanding here considering I acknowledged that Kisame could use all of the jutsu you listed.

Deidara hasn't effectively been shown to deal with anything. Gaara caught him with his sand. Deidara was never shown to be fast enough to weave around his attacks so where is the evidence that lets him escape Water Dome's formation from close range? Oh yes, it doesn't exist which is why instead of providing it you are making things up hoping that I won't call you out on it. :lol

Is this desert sand? Yes, it is. Deidara had to use a bomb to escape, meaning he wasn't fast enough to escape. He only evaded a single assault from Gaara's large scaled desert sand. The next assault almost caught him, and then the gourd sand caught him. The only single thing he evaded is not on the scale of 30% Kisame's Suiton let alone a full powered Kisame's so we can stop now.

Because 15 meters is close range? No, it's classified as long-range within the Databook. If you're going to present an argument, at least don't present falsified information. Furthermore, with Manga Intel, why would Deidara be stupid enough to stay within Kisame's proximity.

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No, Deidara evaded Gaara's Sand and was ultimately captured by Gaara's Gourd Sand which Deidara had no knowledge of at the time. If Gaara resorted to his Gourd Sand as an offense and a defense against Deidara's attacks, then a logical conclusion that can be derived from it is that Gaara's Desert Sand simply wasn't enough which was illustrated during their battle. This is why Deidara's strategy pivoted on circumventing Gaara's Gourd Sand, not his Desert Sand in the first place. This is common sense and doesn't need to be shown for the readers to comprehend it.


Only addressed the things that were pertinent to the discussion.

 

[Zexion~]

Your post contains superfluous information and had you elucidated the matter on why an external water source isn’t a necessity for Kisame, then this argument wouldn’t have occurred in the first part. Fortunately, you did manage to shed some light on the matter, but had you not participated in such frivolous bickering and specified even further, then I would’ve been much more informed and would have contested your post appropriately.

The first paragraph is impertinent to the discussion because it’s just the same ole generic bickering that you’re constantly known for, so I won’t address that part. That being said, I can’t really conform to your argument when there are many glaring flaws within it. From what I observed, your premise is that even when devoid of a water source, Kisame’s still an important asset to the team because he can use various powerful Suiton including Ten Thousand Feeding Sharks and Daikodan. Unfortunately, the argument you used to substantiate that is incongruous with your premise.

If, “Water Sources are stated/shown to be used in the Manga because some Shinobi did not have the chakra or the mastery over said jutsu to produce it without controlling and enhancing pre existing water, which is why Tobirama was praised for being able to use Suiton without a water source,” then there’s absolutely no way that Kisame can use Ten Thousand Feeding Sharks and Daikodan when

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. Instead of debating under the pretense of deceiving others and improving your status, you should’ve succinctly presented and inspected your argument to ensure that there weren’t striking holes within it. Either Kisame with the Hachibi’s Chakra cannot use Ten Thousand Feeding Sharks and Daikodan without a water source or the water source improved his ability to use said techniques because the water source magnified his abilities. Pick your poison.

Smh. No offense, but you inadvertently contradicted yourself once again. Who cares if Kisame’s water source was created via his own chakra when:

1. Water Sources are used for those who did not have the chakra/mastery over said jutsu. (Your logic)
2. Suiton Dai Bakusui Shoha was the catalyst for WaterDome because Kisame couldn’t use it on his lonesome.
3. Suiton Dai Bakusui Shoha therefore served its purpose as an external water source.
4. Thus, Kisame’s water source is literally similar to any other water source.

But no, you deliberately misconstrued the manga and neglected context. The Suiton Barrier that Tobirama erected was a B-Rank technique, in other words, a Jonin level technique. The context of the situation denotes the Kages being incredible beings because they mustered techniques of such an incredible magnitude that it blew everyone away. This is even specified within the Databook:


Yes, emphasis is on power, not on the fact that Tobirama used a Jonin level technique without a water source.



My bad, let me rephrase that. Someone who struggled against Roshi and cannot hit nor challenge any of his opponents here is the epitome of uselessness.



Already refuted despite having third grade level comprehension.



That's where there's a mutual misunderstanding here considering I acknowledged that Kisame could use all of the jutsu you listed.



Because 15 meters is close range? No, it's classified as long-range within the Databook. If you're going to present an argument, at least don't present falsified information. Furthermore, with Manga Intel, why would Deidara be stupid enough to stay within Kisame's proximity.

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No, Deidara evaded Gaara's Sand and was ultimately captured by Gaara's Gourd Sand which Deidara had no knowledge of at the time. If Gaara resorted to his Gourd Sand as an offense and a defense against Deidara's attacks, then a logical conclusion that can be derived from it is that Gaara's Desert Sand simply wasn't enough which was illustrated during their battle. This is why Deidara's strategy pivoted on circumventing Gaara's Gourd Sand, not his Desert Sand in the first place. This is common sense and doesn't need to be shown for the readers to comprehend it.


Only addressed the things that were pertinent to the discussion.

What exactly are you trying to argue here?

 

[KidGamer65]

Your post contains superfluous information and had you elucidated the matter on why an external water source isn’t a necessity for Kisame, then this argument wouldn’t have occurred in the first part. Fortunately, you did manage to shed some light on the matter, but had you not participated in such frivolous bickering and specified even further, then I would’ve been much more informed and would have contested your post appropriately.

I shouldn't have to type 3 paragraphs to get you to understand something that most people would understand with a single sentence. Spend more time paying attention to people's post and the Manga and less time digging in the thesaurus for words you probably don't even use in your everyday vocabulary and maybe you won't have this issue again.

The first paragraph is impertinent to the discussion because it’s just the same ole generic bickering that you’re constantly known for, so I won’t address that part. That being said, I can’t really conform to your argument when there are many glaring flaws within it. From what I observed, your premise is that even when devoid of a water source, Kisame’s still an important asset to the team because he can use various powerful Suiton including Ten Thousand Feeding Sharks and Daikodan. Unfortunately, the argument you used to substantiate that is incongruous with your premise.

Then I'll wait for you to actually show me why Kisame is useless. 2-3 posts from you and you've yet to provide anything of even sub par quality when it comes to an argument.

If, “Water Sources are stated/shown to be used in the Manga because some Shinobi did not have the chakra or the mastery over said jutsu to produce it without controlling and enhancing pre existing water, which is why Tobirama was praised for being able to use Suiton without a water source,” then there’s absolutely no way that Kisame can use Ten Thousand Feeding Sharks and Daikodan when

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. Instead of debating under the pretense of deceiving others and improving your status, you should’ve succinctly presented and inspected your argument to ensure that there weren’t striking holes within it. Either Kisame with the Hachibi’s Chakra cannot use Ten Thousand Feeding Sharks and Daikodan without a water source or the water source improved his ability to use said techniques because the water source magnified his abilities. Pick your poison.

And of course this is you not being able to read the Manga once again. Him having the advantage in water doesn't mean that his techniques are amplified in water. Kisame w/ an external water source can use his abilities more freely without consuming as much chakra because instead of creating water he's simply controlling preexisting water, which is literally the entire battlefield, meaning he has control over the battlefield. Same reason why Gaara has the advantage in a desert. Instead of arguing with dishonesty maybe you should argue with common sense kiddo. It'll save us both a lot of time in the long run.


S

mh. No offense, but you inadvertently contradicted yourself once again. Who cares if Kisame’s water source was created via his own chakra when:

1. Water Sources are used for those who did not have the chakra/mastery over said jutsu. (Your logic)
2. Suiton Dai Bakusui Shoha was the catalyst for WaterDome because Kisame couldn’t use it on his lonesome.
3. Suiton Dai Bakusui Shoha therefore served its purpose as an external water source.
4. Thus, Kisame’s water source is literally similar to any other water source.

-Fact.

-And this is where you continue to sound like a fool. The purpose of a water source is so that you don't spend chakra making water. Kisame spent the chakra to make all that water thus he gets no benefit from controlling it to make his jutsu, thus you can't argue nonsense like "He needs an external water source to use jutsu on that scale" because his Suiton is not an external water source. It is a water source created by his jutsu, meaning he's already shown the scale necessary to replicate his jutsu on his own.

Instead of using common sense you keep on crying about a water source when the important question here is: "Does Kisame need outside help to use Suiton jutsu of the scale shown in canon, yes or no?". The answer to that question is no, because Kisame spitting out water to use for a jutsu is not external help. Point blank period. Let me know if I have to dumb this down even further.

But no, you deliberately misconstrued the manga and neglected context. The Suiton Barrier that Tobirama erected was a B-Rank technique, in other words, a Jonin level technique. The context of the situation denotes the Kages being incredible beings because they mustered techniques of such an incredible magnitude that it blew everyone away. This is even specified within the Databook:


Yes, emphasis is on power, not on the fact that Tobirama used a Jonin level technique without a water source.

See. This is another example of this clown blatantly ignoring what the Manga states instead of addressing what it states with honesty. Pathetic that I need to hold your hand and guide you through the Manga since you can't do it on your own.

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"He used such a tremendous technique on dry land".

Tremendous and dry land are mentioned because the feat is only a feat of that level because he was able to use a jutsu that powerful..WITHOUT A WATER SOURCE. Why are you bolding pieces of an entry that talks about how strength of HIRUZEN's DOTON WALL. We aren't talking about Hiruzen's Doton wall nor does that DB entry emphasize the strength of Tobirama's jutsu.

B Rank is irrelevant. Ranks determine the difficulty to learn said jutsu. What does the difficulty to learn the jutsu have to do with using it or it's scale? Nothing. Don't argue irrelevant nonsense.

My bad, let me rephrase that. Someone who struggled against Roshi and cannot hit nor challenge any of his opponents here is the epitome of uselessness.

Except you've yet to show this is true. All you are doing is repeating the same nonsense you've been repeating since you quoted me 2 pages ago.

Already refuted despite having third grade level comprehension.

If by refuted you mean "I made up nonsense and denied the Manga" then yes, you refuted that very well. :lol

That's where there's a mutual misunderstanding here considering I acknowledged that Kisame could use all of the jutsu you listed.

Did I say that you didn't? I said stop using the logic you were about to use unless you are going to argue that conclusion. There is no misunderstanding.

Because 15 meters is close range? No, it's classified as long-range within the Databook. If you're going to present an argument, at least don't present falsified information. Furthermore, with Manga Intel, why would Deidara be stupid enough to stay within Kisame's proximity.

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Relative to the scale of the technique it's close range. If you are going to address me son actually address the argument instead of addressing semantics. I'm not here to argue semantics with you. :lol The rest isn't even an argument. It's you doing what you do best, dancing around the argumentation that has been provided instead of actually addressing it because you know you can't address it without looking like a moron in the process, er well, an even bigger moron than you appear to be right now.

Deidara staying within his proximity is irrelevant. Who said Deidara would stay put? The point is he's not fast enough to escape Water Dome's formation from that range. These arguments have been made 2 posts ago. Go address them and stop wasting both our time with this nonsense you call an argument. You are supposed to be showing that he's fast enough to evade it but all you are saying after we remove all the fluff text is:

"Deidara can evade it because he has intel and because I said so"

Lmao. Utter garbage.

No, Deidara evaded Gaara's Sand and was ultimately captured by Gaara's Gourd Sand which Deidara had no knowledge of at the time. If Gaara resorted to his Gourd Sand as an offense and a defense against Deidara's attacks, then a logical conclusion that can be derived from it is that Gaara's Desert Sand simply wasn't enough which was illustrated during their battle. This is why Deidara's strategy pivoted on circumventing Gaara's Gourd Sand, not his Desert Sand in the first place. This is common sense and doesn't need to be shown for the readers to comprehend it.

Amazing. Present a scan and then this kid decides to ignore what actually happened in favor of the NarutoX28 version of Kishimoto's Manga. Sorry pal. Let's go over this together since you can't seem to be able to read and comprehend a Manga aimed at teenagers on your own.

You should probably let EjBlack argue this match up since you are doing a pretty piss poor job at it on your own.

-http://mangalife.org/read-online/Naruto-chapter-248-page-13.html

Deidara evades one attack.

-http://mangalife.org/read-online/Naruto-chapter-248-page-17.html

Second attack catches him.

-http://mangalife.org/read-online/Naruto-chapter-248-page-18.html

He's too slow to evade it so he needs to use an explosive to blow his way out of the dome.

-Then he gets caught by Gaara's Gourd Sand. Gaara's regular sand failed because of his explosives, not his speed. So this is not a speed feat for him. He has never shown to be able to consistently dodge Gaara's large scale sand nor is what Gaara used against Deidara here anywhere near Kisame's level when it comes to scale. Maybe you'd know this if you spent more time actually paying attention to what you argue. :lol

Only addressed the things that were pertinent to the discussion.

No, you haven't. You've failed to do so twice now.

What exactly are you trying to argue here?

I doubt he even knows what he's arguing at this point. :lol

 

[realobito1]

I think kisame could take on the duo alone, jhis fighting style probably is not suited to working with kakuzu but with kakuzu near immortality he would be hard to kill so i think he could still be benifitial to the team meaning i hink they could deff win

 

[KidGamer65]

Using Domu refutes this, as he was using partial Domu tillChoji's Spike Ball attack. Mask being separated is also irrelevant on how certain ninjutsu is require for release.

Based on what? Oh yes, based on nothing at al.

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. Kakuzu clearly showed needing hand signs for full version of the attack, and never again showed to output the same strength without signs.

Every time they were separated he needed hand signs to control their jutsu. When merged he didn't need to. That is what was shown. Your hand signs theory makes zero sense.

1. He only has one elemental Jutsu for each element.
2. Hand signs are the process of molding chakra. Where does it say that less chakra used=less hand signs or no hand signs? Nowhere at all.

Then we have the fact that he used the same exact hand sign (the same hand sign people use when controlling people or creatures, Madara did this against Obito, Obito did this against the Bijuu, etc) for each and every jutsu. Unless you are going to argue next that every jutsu Kakuzu uses has the same one hand sign you can stop trying to push this point.

Forming the hand sign to built that chakra needed for the jutsu is another thing. Him forming the hand sign is as useful as Chiyo using her hands to block. So I have no reason to believe the Futon will be released before the attack speed already reached Kakuzu.

That doesn't even begin to make sense. Chiyo was able to use her hands to block and control her puppets and have them move then the chakra shield has to be activated. So your example falls flat on it's face.

Sentient or living, whatever honestly. All I know is that the sword has its own anatomy (manipulate chakra via absorption tech, teeth, tongue, saliva, and a blood stream). And I have every reason to believe poison will get the best of it, nullifying its usage for the match.

Poison works by killing and damaging organs. Can't damage and kill something that isn't alive because Samehada is a sword.

Sasuke never blocked a direct hit though, as Deidara blow it early so Sasuke wont fly away. The deciding factor is the team getting box in with C2, mines, and IS.

But mines won't ever happen nor will Iron Sand do anything useful here.

Lol dude might want to check that fight out again. Not only doesnt it make logical sense:

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.

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Mine crater [

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] for comparison.

No, it makes perfect sense. An explosion being an explosion doesn't mean it'll automatically make a large crater when it explodes as all that energy isn't focused towards the ground. Did C2 make a crater when Sasuke dodged it the first time? No. The mine exploded from underground and even it didn't make a crater anywhere close to the size of the explosion. The crater it made was barely noticeable to begin with no what C2 may or may not have done (not seeing any of what you are describing) is irrelevant.

C0 is Deidara's strongest bomb by a long shot and not even it made a deep crater in the ground let alone C2. [

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] Going underground hard counters any bomb Deidara can use in this fight.

Well aware, I only paraphrase a focus point you made, to explain why Deidara sets mines without difficult interference. Holding out argument is being addressed right now. And your Tosh comment isnt relevant to me since I dont see how setting up WD even ends them when a basic ninja could simply use chakra on their feet to stay on the surface of the water. They have manga intel so nothing is so sudden or unexpected for this match. Kisame forms sign to built chakra, Team jumps, Kisame fill the location with water, Team lands on water surfaces rising up with chakra, jump off water as a platfom which = flight from there.

Lmao what? Did you really think that this was going to be a plausible counter? Where was being able to stand on water when B trapped Kisame? :lol Water Dome is a giant dome of water. If he gets caught in the stream he'll be inside the dome just like B was, not on top of it so we can forget about him being able to stand on top of it. :lol

And that doesn't make sense. Manga intel doesn't mean that they expect everything because where in this Manga have you seen evidence that Sasori or Deidara know about Kisame's Water Dome, his ability to fuse with Samehada and all that jazz. Being in the same organization doesn't mean a thing.

-Kisame uses sign to make the chakra.
-Team jumps.
-He spits out the water and they get caught in an attack V1 B couldn't evade, someone who is far faster than Deidara or Sasori.

Have you forgotten Sand jutsu cant be absorbed via Gokage attempt to seal Madara? So Compress Iron Shell tanks GSB with ease.

Alright then.

Deidara can take care of himself. Sasori isn't having any trouble creating a linear wall blocking linear element blast.

Who said he'd have trouble? To set up mines around the area they are fighting in he'll have to separate himself from the rest, meaning he's getting further away from them and getting closer to where Kakuzu and Kisame are. That's when Kakuzu either nukes him with Atsugai, Zukkoku or both or Kisame makes Suiton Clones and they take out the clone if it ever tries to set up land mines.

Sakura knocks away a stationary block, so I fail to see your point.



Read the scan again the shockwave was eating the earth without the Iron itself touching the ground.[

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No. Lmao.

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-Iron Sand extends.
-Pierces the ground.
-Then it rips through and upwards which is why the ground is destroyed. Please don't try to argue that it moves with so much force that it damages the ground that much when attacks far beyond it's level don't even do that.

Obviously its small because literally the hand shield was in front of them. So little got in from the hit box landed. Not going to be the same scenario where Kakuzu is blocking using his whole body.

No, that little got it because that is all the Iron sand that can get it in. Again, what you are saying doesn't make sense nor should it be hard to figure out why. Iron Sand left residue on her puppets that caused the joints to clog up. That residue's size is shown and it's not larger than the arm of a puppet. Hitting a larger object doesn't mean that the residue is going to automatically change size. What type of logic is that? If it adjusted to size then an amount equal in size to the shield would've gotten in, but that is obviously not the case.

IS speed>Gaara, have no idea what you talking about. Flexibility doesnt have to be shown when they use the same jutsu(plus the fact that it was stated it can take any shape desire by the caster while Gaara is literally limited). DB4 states Rasa copied the 3rd, while Rasa can form and make his sand as flexible too.

No, Iron Sand is not faster than Gaara's Sand unless we are talking about the specific attack that Chiyo blocked, and no, Gaara controls sand via chakra. Sasori controls IRON Sand via magnetism. Where were the bold statements made?

Let me remind you that my premise is talking about the IS thats already attached to Kakuzu.

That premise doesn't make a lick of sense.

 

[unknownvillain1254]

I am a little confused with Sasori poison doesn't he win by default to kisame who has been hit every fight or scratch

 

[NarutoX28]

I am a little confused with Sasori poison doesn't he win by default to kisame who has been hit every fight or scratch

No. This is Kisame we're talking about here.

 

[Forbidden Technique]

I seem to recall you agreeing with me that Kakuzu has no need for breath a long time ago.

But yeah they would.

In our Kakuzu Vs Kisame debate we did years ago? Yeah, I just dropped arguing against it since it didn't change the outcome. Arguing whether he breaths normally or not will always end up as conjecture.

I am a little confused with Sasori poison doesn't he win by default to kisame who has been hit every fight or scratch

Name a character that hasn't been hit or touched in some sort of way in a fight. By this logic, Sasori beats nearly everybody.

No. This is Kisame we're talking about here.

Translation: I don't like the character, so I must fabricate everything possible involving him.

 

[NarutoX28]

Translation: I don't like the character, so I must fabricate everything possible involving him.

Why would I hate Kisame? His backstory is similar to Itachi's who happens to be one of my favorite characters. I just genuinely don't perceive him as powerful as people believe him to be.

 

[Forbidden Technique]

Why would I hate Kisame? His backstory is similar to Itachi's who happens to be one of my favorite characters. I just genuinely don't perceive him as powerful as people believe him to be.

I never used the word hate. You genuinely display bias and dishonesty with the manga, using arguments you've previously weren't able to prove and support.

 

[NarutoX28]

I never used the word hate. You genuinely display bias and dishonesty with the manga, using arguments you've previously weren't able to prove and support.

Disagreeing with an opinion isn't the equivalent of said opinion being unsubstantiated.

The only argument that I've used is Kisame thriving off of Bee's chakra and your rebuttal to that was irrelevant to the discussion being made. There's a fine line between acknowledging Kisame as a Mid Kage and claiming that Kisame is more reflexive than a MS user.

 

[Forbidden Technique]

Disagreeing with an opinion isn't the equivalent of said opinion being unsubstantiated.

The only argument that I've used is Kisame thriving off of Bee's chakra and your rebuttal to that was irrelevant to the discussion being made. There's a fine line between acknowledging Kisame as a Mid Kage and claiming that Kisame is more reflexive than a MS user.

Lol, there is also a fine line between being delusional and attuned with reality. I never claimed that disagreeing with an opinion is the equivalent of said opinion being unsubstantiated. What I claimed was being incapable of refuting said opinion, yet persisting on with the proven incorrect opinion is being dishonest with the manga. I never claimed that Kisame is more reflexive than a MS user. What I claimed was Taka Sasuke, a non proficient MS user, is not in a higher reflex category then Kisame, based on not even his MS usage, but his 3T occurrence with the same character. A claim that I am not banking on you being capable of adequately refuting, as one remains to be seen, despite you seemingly writing it off as outrageous. Nothing but sad attempts at a straw man, more fabrication, and dishonesty with the manga here.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Based on what? Oh yes, based on nothing at al

.

Based on my first sentence? I'll add pretty pictures this time so you wont miss it:

Fact:

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.
Fact: Kakashi had observed Kakuzu using partial Domu.
Fact:

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[

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].

Using Doton followed the same logic as Kakuzu demonstrated from his other elements.

Every time they were separated he needed hand signs to control their jutsu. When merged he didn't need to. That is what was shown. Your hand signs theory makes zero sense.

He needed hand signs because its required to muster and manipulate the chakra to use its original power like all of his jutsu. This was also shown using Domu, so no what your saying doesnt make sense.

1. He only has one elemental Jutsu for each element.
2. Hand signs are the process of molding chakra. Where does it say that less chakra used=less hand signs or no hand signs? Nowhere at all.

1. Irreverent
2.

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. Never said anything about @Bold All I said is no hand sign used isn't going mold, control, and manipulate the jutsu to its orginal power as Kakuzu demonstrated from all his jutsus.

Then we have the fact that he used the same exact hand sign (the same hand sign people use when controlling people or creatures, Madara did this against Obito, Obito did this against the Bijuu, etc) for each and every jutsu. Unless you are going to argue next that every jutsu Kakuzu uses has the same one hand sign you can stop trying to push this point.

I checked those scenes again via Madara and Obito. lol no, they arent even the exact hand signs. I dont know where you got them from.

Why should I believe Kakuzu even use 1 hand sign for his other jutsu's when Kakashi stated they he used more then 1 for Domu? "From the sign(s) you were waving, it's an earth style jutsu" Kishimoto put no emphasis on showing all of Kakuzu's exact signs to perform each element either. So I dont even know what point you are trying to push.

That doesn't even begin to make sense. Chiyo was able to use her hands to block and control her puppets and have them move then the chakra shield has to be activated. So your example falls flat on it's face.

No it doesnt because your example is using the first encounter to sand drizzle. While my point is talking about using its fastest speed displayed in the manga. Which she only had time to block the jutsu. So her able to use her hands, along with her puppet, to block (couldnt move away from) with chakra shield is much faster process then Kakuzu using his hand to create hand sign(s), built that chakra, and releasing the jutsu.

Poison works by killing and damaging organs. Can't damage and kill something that isn't alive because Samehada is a sword.

And I just listed why it will work so why are you ignoring the fact that I addressed it having blood, Saliva, and Organs (tongue)?

But mines won't ever happen nor will Iron Sand do anything useful here.

No, it makes perfect sense. An explosion being an explosion doesn't mean it'll automatically make a large crater when it explodes as all that energy isn't focused towards the ground. Did C2 make a crater when Sasuke dodged it the first time? No. The mine exploded from underground and even it didn't make a crater anywhere close to the size of the explosion. The crater it made was barely noticeable to begin with no what C2 may or may not have done (not seeing any of what you are describing) is irrelevant.

C0 is Deidara's strongest bomb by a long shot and not even it made a deep crater in the ground let alone C2. [

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] Going underground hard counters any bomb Deidara can use in this fight.

No it doesnt make sense, thats reaching. A stronger explosion is going to make a deeper hole on the ground. I am well aware that energy isnt focused towards the ground, which is literally making my point as to why you havent seen C2 make bigger holes then its weaker version did. While my premise is using it as an actual target spot.
Did C2 make a crater when Sasuke dodged the first time? You cant answer that because we didnt see the panel result, we just see that area smoked. But we can use logic and deductive reasoning that it will be deeper then his lower levels.

@Bold never said or implied bombs are going to be the same size as the crater it makes.


I dont know what you are not seeing because it clearly noticeable. Mines as was noticeable and C2 cleaned it off.
And by what standards are you saying that the C0 crater isnt deep? Its looks deep to me.

Didnt Beginning Shippuden Sakura counter Doton Mole with her strength level?

Lmao what? Did you really think that this was going to be a plausible counter? Where was being able to stand on water when B trapped Kisame? :lol Water Dome is a giant dome of water. If he gets caught in the stream he'll be inside the dome just like B was, not on top of it so we can forget about him being able to stand on top of it. :lol

Yes? Because thats how walking on water works? Needing to be on top of the surface to walk on it?
@Bold he couldnt stand on it because he was already engulf by it unexpectedly. My premise never mentioned doing it in the stream.

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which is clearly not the same scenario as what happen to B

And that doesn't make sense. Manga intel doesn't mean that they expect everything because where in this Manga have you seen evidence that Sasori or Deidara know about Kisame's Water Dome, his ability to fuse with Samehada and all that jazz. Being in the same organization doesn't mean a thing.

Never said it was. They know Kisame used Water style and at least know he uses it for battle terrain. Thats all they need to know to prepare themselves.

-Kisame uses sign to make the chakra.
-Team jumps.
-He spits out the water and they get caught in an attack V1 B couldn't evade, someone who is far faster than Deidara or Sasori.

Never said they can evade I said they can start on top of the surface of the jutsu.

Who said he'd have trouble? To set up mines around the area they are fighting in he'll have to separate himself from the rest, meaning he's getting further away from them and getting closer to where Kakuzu and Kisame are. That's when Kakuzu either nukes him with Atsugai, Zukkoku or both or Kisame makes Suiton Clones and they take out the clone if it ever tries to set up land mines.

They dont know where Deidara would be. While Deidara's own Mole jutsu works by sensing from above, so he will know where they would be.

Then you have the fact that they are going to be to pressured by Original Deidara and Sasori from above anyway.

No. Lmao.

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-Iron Sand extends.
-Pierces the ground.
-Then it rips through and upwards which is why the ground is destroyed. Please don't try to argue that it moves with so much force that it damages the ground that much when attacks far beyond it's level don't even do that.

Fine the logic here doesnt work here. But I have other reasons to believe it wont simply because this jutsu carries much more weight then others. The shape of that jutsu would cut, when its in motion. And by the fact that IS can tank the jutsu with ease anyway.

No, that little got it because that is all the Iron sand that can get it in. Again, what you are saying doesn't make sense nor should it be hard to figure out why. Iron Sand left residue on her puppets that caused the joints to clog up. That residue's size is shown and it's not larger than the arm of a puppet. Hitting a larger object doesn't mean that the residue is going to automatically change size. What type of logic is that? If it adjusted to size then an amount equal in size to the shield would've gotten in, but that is obviously not the case.

I'm not arguing that the attack is going to have/leave the same amount of residue that Chiyo had, yet alone expand on the much of that little fragment it will provide, so you brought this point for no reason.

No, Iron Sand is not faster than Gaara's Sand unless we are talking about the specific attack that Chiyo blocked, and no, Gaara controls sand via chakra. Sasori controls IRON Sand via magnetism. Where were the bold statements made?

Iron is the same speed as Gaara's until Sasori puts more chakra to increase it. Gaara controls sand by the nature of Shukaku. No way Madara can't ignore chakra it cant absorb, makes no sense.

Bold 1: [

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]
Bold 2: [

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That premise doesn't make a lick of sense.

 

[unknownvillain1254]

No. This is Kisame we're talking about here.

Ok .... So what dose that mean . He still can be poisoned

 

[unknownvillain1254]

In our Kakuzu Vs Kisame debate we did years ago? Yeah, I just dropped arguing against it since it didn't change the outcome. Arguing whether he breaths normally or not will always end up as conjecture.



Name a character that hasn't been hit or touched in some sort of way in a fight. By this logic, Sasori beats nearly everybody.



Translation: I don't like the character, so I must fabricate everything possible involving him.

Ok Yea he dose but that is what makes him so dangerous why do you seem upset about that

Sasori is basically the minato of the sand village because he could take on multiple people and armies by himself

 

[NarutoX28]

Ok .... So what dose that mean . He still can be poisoned

Shitty claim. Waterdome one-shots Sasori, poison cannot be dispersed within the dome, and the water obstructs the mobility of all of his puppets due to their wood-like composition.

Kisame negs Sasori, simply not debatable.