[VS] Kisame and Kakuzu Vs Deidara and Sasori

[KidGamer65]

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Based on my first sentence? I'll add pretty pictures this time so you wont miss it:

Fact:

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Fact: Kakashi had observed Kakuzu using partial Domu.
Fact:

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Using Doton followed the same logic as Kakuzu demonstrated from his other elements.

That's Domu. Not every element nor do they all work the same. :lol Once again your claims are based on nothing.

He needed hand signs because its required to muster and manipulate the chakra to use its original power like all of his jutsu. This was also shown using Domu, so no what your saying doesnt make sense.

The only jutsu to ever have that requirement is Domu. Domu and the rest of his jutsu are not the same kind of jutsu so it being true for Domu doesn't make it true for Atsugai, Zukkoku and Gian. Period.

1. Irreverent
2.

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. Never said anything about @Bold All I said is no hand sign used isn't going mold, control, and manipulate the jutsu to its orginal power as Kakuzu demonstrated from all his jutsus.

When you are going to stop inventing rules for these jutsu? Not once in this Manga was the amount of hand signs correlated with the amount of chakra used for said jutsu. The bold is exactly what you are saying so let's not dance around it buddy. You think that because he used no hand signs the jutsu will be smaller in scale, thus less chakra used.

I checked those scenes again via Madara and Obito. lol no, they arent even the exact hand signs. I dont know where you got them from.

Why should I believe Kakuzu even use 1 hand sign for his other jutsu's when Kakashi stated they he used more then 1 for Domu? "From the sign(s) you were waving, it's an earth style jutsu" Kishimoto put no emphasis on showing all of Kakuzu's exact signs to perform each element either. So I dont even know what point you are trying to push.

The point stands regardless.

Lmao. Hilarious how you continue to grasp at straws with argumentation like this. The ram sign where you hold your hands together is the hand sign that correlates with Doton techniques. If Kakashi said that the signs he weaved were for Doton techniques then obviously the only sign he saw Kakuzu weave is the Ram. [

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] Shown in the Manga. If Kakuzu weaved multiple signs for Doton Domu then he would've been shown weaving multiple signs. Same goes for his other elements. So if you want to believe that he used more than one hand sign for each element it's basically you believing what you want to believe regardless of not having any evidence supporting it.

No it doesnt because your example is using the first encounter to sand drizzle. While my point is talking about using its fastest speed displayed in the manga. Which she only had time to block the jutsu. So her able to use her hands, along with her puppet, to block (couldnt move away from) with chakra shield is much faster process then Kakuzu using his hand to create hand sign(s), built that chakra, and releasing the jutsu.

What are you talking about? :lol.

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She had no shield up. She was "unarmed" and then Sasori fired his attack, then it reached full speed, then it hit their location only to be blocked by the chakra shield. Thus Chiyo reacted to it, formed a chakra shield and blocked the attack while protecting Sakura with a puppet. So no, Kakuzu easily makes a hand sign and releases Atsugai.

And I just listed why it will work so why are you ignoring the fact that I addressed it having blood, Saliva, and Organs (tongue)?

Fine. We'll say Iron Sand can kill Samehada. Doesn't change the outcome of this match in any way, shape or form regardless as Kisame has a way to evade Iron Sand, or he can use Suiton to deflect it instead of using Samehada. And I could go on.

No it doesnt make sense, thats reaching. A stronger explosion is going to make a deeper hole on the ground. I am well aware that energy isnt focused towards the ground, which is literally making my point as to why you havent seen C2 make bigger holes then its weaker version did. While my premise is using it as an actual target spot.
Did C2 make a crater when Sasuke dodged the first time? You cant answer that because we didnt see the panel result, we just see that area smoked. But we can use logic and deductive reasoning that it will be deeper then his lower levels.

What are you even talking about? No, you aren't aware of anything because if you were then you wouldn't be arguing this point. Stop talking logic when you aren't using it. If the vast majority of the energy is focused towards the sky and not towards the ground then the potential for a deep crater to be created goes way way down. That's a fact. Bold doesn't even begin to make sense.

I dont know what you are not seeing because it clearly noticeable. Mines as was noticeable and C2 cleaned it off.
And by what standards are you saying that the C0 crater isnt deep? Its looks deep to me.

No, the crater made by the mines was not noticeable in terms of dept. At all. Sasuke himself was taller than the crater you are calling noticeable. :lol Leveling a not noticeable crater is a pathetic feat in terms of damaging the ground which only helps my point, that bombs hitting the ground won't hurt someone who has dug deep enough underground to evade them.

Doesn't help either that the mines exploded from underground while C2 is exploding from above ground.

I never said the crater wasn't deep. I said it wasn't extraordinarily deep. C0 is leagues above C2 in strength. C2 has never made any crater large enough to damage someone deep underground.

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Didnt Beginning Shippuden Sakura counter Doton Mole with her strength level?

She revealed his position. Irrelevant regardless because we aren't talking about Sakura. We are talking about Deidara and we have seen what his bombs do to the ground. Then we have the fact that Kisame doesn't need to be that close to the surface, obviously.

[/QUOTE]

Yes? Because thats how walking on water works? Needing to be on top of the surface to walk on it?
@Bold he couldnt stand on it because he was already engulf by it unexpectedly. My premise never mentioned doing it in the stream.

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which is clearly not the same scenario as what happen to B

No, they were on top of the initial water that spit out by Kisame, but the water was too fast for them to escape thus they got caught by the rest and were swept into the dome. [

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] Sure, they could pull this off in theory, but V1 B was caught so you can forget about arguing Sasori and Deidara can do so. Period.

Never said they can evade I said they can start on top of the surface of the jutsu.

Except they can't.

They dont know where Deidara would be. While Deidara's own Mole jutsu works by sensing from above, so he will know where they would be.

If he's underground then obviously, but he starts above ground and he can't place mines without coming up and going back down repeatedly due to the amount and size of them.

Then you have the fact that they are going to be to pressured by Original Deidara and Sasori from above anyway.

Kisame has clones and Kakuzu can attack from multiple at once. This doesn't matter.

Fine the logic here doesnt work here. But I have other reasons to believe it wont simply because this jutsu carries much more weight then others. The shape of that jutsu would cut, when its in motion. And by the fact that IS can tank the jutsu with ease anyway.

So basically your argument is "Because Iron Sand is strong and can cut it cuts through Atsugai"? Yeah, sorry bud. Not an argument. That's you stating a claim without actually supporting it. It being stronger than the others is irrelevant because the others don't have a fraction of a percent chance at overpowering Kakuzu's Atsugai.

I'm not arguing that the attack is going to have/leave the same amount of residue that Chiyo had, yet alone expand on the much of that little fragment it will provide, so you brought this point for no reason.

That makes zero sense. Expanding it doesn't create more than what is already there, and what is there isn't enough to bind Kakuzu. Lmao what is so hard to understand about this? If he wants to bind Kakuzu like that he'll have to send more Sand unless you are going to somehow show that an amount of sand smaller than the arm of a puppet can bind an entire human.

Iron is the same speed as Gaara's until Sasori puts more chakra to increase it. Gaara controls sand by the nature of Shukaku. No way Madara can't ignore chakra it cant absorb, makes no sense.

Bold 1: [

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Bold 2: [

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Based on what? I hope your evidence aren't those scans because if it is then you aren't making sense. How does Rasa copying Shukaku and the 3rd Kazekage to learn how to control his Gold Dust mean that they move at the same speed? How do the similarities between their respective jutsu result in the speed for each jutsu being the same? :lol Terrible logic. Gaara's abilities haven't changed, yet his sand in Part 1 is nowhere near as fast as it is now, meaning the speed of the sand isn't determined by the nature of control. Thus you have no basis for stating that Iron Sand's regular movement speed is on par with Gaara's sand.

Then we have the fact that every variants of IS that aren't the spikes were blocked by Chiyo have garbage speed feats compared to Gaara's own sand. Sakura can dodge every variant of Iron Sand without fail after fighting Sasori for a little while. She is not fast enough to do that to Gaara's Sand as Gaara's Sand has feats of capturing someone much faster than her. (Deidara) So either you concede this point or you start arguing that Sakura and Deidara in flight are the same speed.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

I would like to continue this debate but I rather spent that time on my vaca. Though I would have dropped my argument for C2 making getting a Submarine Voyage Kisame as I wont be able to make a convincing argument for that one

 

[unknownvillain1254]

Shitty claim. Waterdome one-shots Sasori, poison cannot be dispersed within the dome, and the water obstructs the mobility of all of his puppets due to their wood-like composition.

Kisame negs Sasori, simply not debatable.

Ok sasori beat kisame water dome doesn't faze sasori in anyway poison leak in the water kill kisame

 

[NarutoX28]

Ok sasori beat kisame water dome doesn't faze sasori in anyway poison leak in the water kill kisame

Sasori's poison has been proven not to be dissolvable in water.

Regardless, once the Sandaime Kazekage puppet has been debilitated, Kisame can just end the jutsu and neg his ass. Sasori has absolutely no way of countering Waterdome because it was manifested in a mere instance and that dome reached the width of a mountain and a relatively significant height. There's literally no one who can escape it unless you're Minato.

 

[NarutoX28]

All right, already completed over half of my rebuttal. Hopefully I'll be done soon to post it up tomorrow.

 

[NarutoX28]

I shouldn't have to type 3 paragraphs to get you to understand something that most people would understand with a single sentence. Spend more time paying attention to people's post and the Manga and less time digging in the thesaurus for words you probably don't even use in your everyday vocabulary and maybe you won't have this issue again.

People still clinging to this insult? I only used those words because they either clicked to me or they could feasibly convey something in less words. Besides, I have third grade level comprehension, there's no way I can even use a thesaurus. :lol

And of course this is you not being able to read the Manga once again. Him having the advantage in water doesn't mean that his techniques are amplified in water. Kisame w/ an external water source can use his abilities more freely without consuming as much chakra because instead of creating water he's simply controlling preexisting water, which is literally the entire battlefield, meaning he has control over the battlefield. Same reason why Gaara has the advantage in a desert. Instead of arguing with dishonesty maybe you should argue with common sense kiddo. It'll save us both a lot of time in the long run.


S

-Fact.

-And this is where you continue to sound like a fool. The purpose of a water source is so that you don't spend chakra making water. Kisame spent the chakra to make all that water thus he gets no benefit from controlling it to make his jutsu, thus you can't argue nonsense like "He needs an external water source to use jutsu on that scale" because his Suiton is not an external water source. It is a water source created by his jutsu, meaning he's already shown the scale necessary to replicate his jutsu on his own.

Instead of using common sense you keep on crying about a water source when the important question here is: "Does Kisame need outside help to use Suiton jutsu of the scale shown in canon, yes or no?". The answer to that question is no, because Kisame spitting out water to use for a jutsu is not external help. Point blank period. Let me know if I have to dumb this down even further.

That was an anticipated conclusion you derived from Kisame’s statement, but I simply think that what you proposed is unreasoned when chakra conservation isn’t an advantage for Kisame, someone whose chakra eclipses Nagato’s and is further enhanced by the Hachibi’s chakra. Chakra conservation would be an advantage for the average Shinobi, but not for someone of Kisame’s stature. Furthermore, the advantages Gaara does possess does not apply to Kisame. Gaara’s illustrated to have the advantage over the entire battlefield which was demonstrated by his ability to muster a gargantuan fortified defense to combat C3. In comparison, water sources have only been used to muster, for the sake of the argument, jutsu that are accessible to them. Gaara’s example simply isn’t analogous to a Suiton user’s control over water and if it is, it simply further emphasizes my point considering Gaara’s ability to use and manipulate sand transcends what can be accomplished without topographical advantage.

With that being said, the reason why I emphasized the inadvertent contradiction you made is because it actually had a purpose to the discussion. If Kisame required Suiton Dai Bakusui Shoha to initiate Waterdome, then it accomplished the same thing as a pre-existing water source because it enabled Kisame to manipulate pre-existing water that he created and apply shape manipulation to form an entirely new jutsu (illustrated by Waterdome). As Kakashi elaborated in the manga, combining both shape manipulation and elemental manipulation is an arduous task for any shinobi and Naruto’s sentiment was congruous with Kakashi’s observation. Naruto dejectedly admitted that Rasengan alone was a difficult task as it was and applying elemental change in chakra to the jutsu made it practically impossible.

However, once Naruto used an extra clone, he was capable of bypassing the process of elemental manipulation and instead, prioritized on shape manipulation which enabled him to complete the jutsu. The same pertained to Kisame. When Kisame diverts most of his attention to performing both of these tasks, the outcome is less rewarding. When Kisame utilizes Suiton Dai Bakusui Shoha first, he accomplishes the elemental manipulation task. From there, Kisame can freely divert all of his chakra towards manipulating pre-existing water which enables him to create a larger scale jutsu because less chakra control and effort is actually needed in order to accomplish the task as was the case with Naruto and his Rasengan. You expressed your opposing argument rather clearly, but the reason I didn’t agree with it or more accurately, considered it to be a vain and hopeless argument was because spewing out tremendous amounts of Suiton isn’t equivalent to manifesting a jutsu of the same scale on his own when creating a pre-existing water source utilizes only elemental manipulation while replicating his own jutsu without a water source encompasses both shape manipulation and elemental manipulation, something Kakashi and Naruto established as a significantly more difficult task.

This was a rather convoluted argument and I was disinclined to presenting an everlasting argument in the first place, but in this case, I believed it was quite necessary because we were still in disagreement and it needed to be addressed why I seemingly neglected your premise in the first place. Hopefully that clears up any confusion.

Except you've yet to show this is true. All you are doing is repeating the same nonsense you've been repeating since you quoted me 2 pages ago.

Kisame battled arduously against Roshi despite Roshi's techniques being ill-suited in handling Kisame's large-scale attacks. In comparison, Deidara and Sasori can weave around Kisame's attacks (at least more easily), has an inherent advantage through long-range attacks, and Kisame's flat-out going to have a more difficult time in hitting either of the duo. That's excluding how Sasori's attacks simply cleave through some of what Kisame has to offer, including Daikodan. For that reason, Kisame's performance against Roshi doesn't do him any justice here.

See. This is another example of this clown blatantly ignoring what the Manga states instead of addressing what it states with honesty. Pathetic that I need to hold your hand and guide you through the Manga since you can't do it on your own.

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"He used such a tremendous technique on dry land".

Tremendous and dry land are mentioned because the feat is only a feat of that level because he was able to use a jutsu that powerful..WITHOUT A WATER SOURCE. Why are you bolding pieces of an entry that talks about how strength of HIRUZEN's DOTON WALL. We aren't talking about Hiruzen's Doton wall nor does that DB entry emphasize the strength of Tobirama's jutsu.

B Rank is irrelevant. Ranks determine the difficulty to learn said jutsu. What does the difficulty to learn the jutsu have to do with using it or it's scale? Nothing. Don't argue irrelevant nonsense.

The evidence I presented came from the Databook and I synthesized information to arrive to a conclusion. How is that dishonest? Did I fabricate the information in any sort of way when I evidently bolded Kishimoto's words and didn't tamper with it in any sort of way?

That said, I actually was aware of that statement, but that statement was suspect to ambiguity because you interpreted it rather differently than I did. This is why I didn’t use it and instead, synthesized other pieces of information to interpret that statement correctly. Clearly, you failed to understand why I brought the Databook Entry of Hiruzen’s Doton Wall and it was used to denote Kishimoto’s reference to sheer power. Everything within that scene was meant to establish the Hokages being in a different realm of power, something that was emphasized for both Hiruzen’s Doton Wall and Tobirama’s Suiton. Therefore, the Anbu was stupefied not because Tobirama used a jutsu that powerful (which doesn’t make sense to begin with), but because he managed to use Suiton on such a massive scale even when devoid of a water source. The next part, I won’t bother addressing unless necessary because it’d just be arguing semantics.

Relative to the scale of the technique it's close range. If you are going to address me son actually address the argument instead of addressing semantics. I'm not here to argue semantics with you. :lol The rest isn't even an argument. It's you doing what you do best, dancing around the argumentation that has been provided instead of actually addressing it because you know you can't address it without looking like a moron in the process, er well, an even bigger moron than you appear to be right now.

Okay.

Deidara staying within his proximity is irrelevant. Who said Deidara would stay put? The point is he's not fast enough to escape Water Dome's formation from that range. These arguments have been made 2 posts ago. Go address them and stop wasting both our time with this nonsense you call an argument. You are supposed to be showing that he's fast enough to evade it but all you are saying after we remove all the fluff text is:

"Deidara can evade it because he has intel and because I said so"

Lmao. Utter garbage.

My argument was that even for someone as clever as Kakashi, Kakashi found that there were no openings for Deidara to exploit. Kisame's not an elite tactician, nor does he possess techniques that are effective at a long-range, so for Kisame to exploit an opening for something Deidara has knowledge on is unlikely, especially when Kisame's seal and body-motion would literally be a cue for Deidara as to what Kisame is doing anyways.

Amazing. Present a scan and then this kid decides to ignore what actually happened in favor of the NarutoX28 version of Kishimoto's Manga. Sorry pal. Let's go over this together since you can't seem to be able to read and comprehend a Manga aimed at teenagers on your own.

You should probably let EjBlack argue this match up since you are doing a pretty piss poor job at it on your own.

-http://mangalife.org/read-online/Naruto-chapter-248-page-13.html

Deidara evades one attack.

-http://mangalife.org/read-online/Naruto-chapter-248-page-17.html

Second attack catches him.

-http://mangalife.org/read-online/Naruto-chapter-248-page-18.html

He's too slow to evade it so he needs to use an explosive to blow his way out of the dome.

-Then he gets caught by Gaara's Gourd Sand. Gaara's regular sand failed because of his explosives, not his speed. So this is not a speed feat for him. He has never shown to be able to consistently dodge Gaara's large scale sand nor is what Gaara used against Deidara here anywhere near Kisame's level when it comes to scale. Maybe you'd know this if you spent more time actually paying attention to what you argue. :lol

Confused at what you're trying to prove when the only reason Deidara was engulfed by the sand in the first place is because he was fascinated by Gaara's Gourd Sand and lost track of what was going on behind him. None of what you presented proves that Gaara's Desert Sand was an issue and given the fact that he almost escaped it and Gaara even believed that he needed to use his Gourd Sand to subdue him only substantiates my claim that only Gaara's Gourd Sand was an issue which was illustrated throughout the entire clash. Can you provide me some scans that Gaara's Desert Sand gave Deidara issues when he was actually focused?

No you cannot, so instead of bickering, give me an explanation of how Deidara legitimately failed against Deidara's Sand because given what was illustrated, only Gaara's Gourd Sand gave Deidara the greatest challenge, not his Gourd Sand.

Kisame's Suiton being greater than Gaara's Desert Sand when Kisame lacks topographical advantage is a baseless claim, but that's irrelevant when Kisame's attacks can't chase Deidara nor have the flexibility to constantly challenge Deidara. Regardless, my point was that large scale attacks in general have never overwhelmed Deidara, only sheer speed has and this was consistently presented in the manga. Given that Kisame doesn't specialize in speed, he's going to have a far more difficult time doing anything substantial against the team.

 

[KidGamer65]

People still clinging to this insult? I only used those words because they either clicked to me or they could feasibly convey something in less words. Besides, I have third grade level comprehension, there's no way I can even use a thesaurus. :lol



That was an anticipated conclusion you derived from Kisame’s statement, but I simply think that what you proposed is unreasoned when chakra conservation isn’t an advantage for Kisame, someone whose chakra eclipses Nagato’s and is further enhanced by the Hachibi’s chakra. Chakra conservation would be an advantage for the average Shinobi, but not for someone of Kisame’s stature. Furthermore, the advantages Gaara does possess does not apply to Kisame. Gaara’s illustrated to have the advantage over the entire battlefield which was demonstrated by his ability to muster a gargantuan fortified defense to combat C3. In comparison, water sources have only been used to muster, for the sake of the argument, jutsu that are accessible to them. Gaara’s example simply isn’t analogous to a Suiton user’s control over water and if it is, it simply further emphasizes my point considering Gaara’s ability to use and manipulate sand transcends what can be accomplished without topographical advantage.

Do you realize how little sense you are making? Saving chakra is always a bonus regardless of how much of it you have. Unless you are going to argue that saving chakra does nothing when in reality it leaves you with more chakra than you had before regardless of your chakra being large or not then you can do us both a favor and stop now. And no, Kisame's chakra has never once been stated to eclipse Nagato's. Is it larger? Sure. But eclipse? Lmao. No. Never. Not once.

Control of the entire battlefield is one of the advantages Gaara gets in the Sand. Obviously his other major advantage doesn't transfer over to Kisame because Gaara on his own is limited to gourd sand. Kisame on his own is not limited because his jutsu can all be replicated with the amount of water he can produce on his own.

With that being said, the reason why I emphasized the inadvertent contradiction you made is because it actually had a purpose to the discussion. If Kisame required Suiton Dai Bakusui Shoha to initiate Waterdome, then it accomplished the same thing as a pre-existing water source because it enabled Kisame to manipulate pre-existing water that he created and apply shape manipulation to form an entirely new jutsu (illustrated by Waterdome). As Kakashi elaborated in the manga, combining both shape manipulation and elemental manipulation is an arduous task for any shinobi and Naruto’s sentiment was congruous with Kakashi’s observation. Naruto dejectedly admitted that Rasengan alone was a difficult task as it was and applying elemental change in chakra to the jutsu made it practically impossible.

Yet you keep ignoring the fact that he is the one who created that technique, which nullifies all arguments on him needing an outside water source to use his largest jutsu because water that comes from INSIDE his body is obviously not an OUTSIDE source. It doesn't get any simpler than this. Not sure why you are comparing Kisame using Dai Bakusui Shoha and then using Water Dome to Naruto combining Wind Release with Rasengan. Kakashi and Naruto stated that combining Nature Transformation with Rasengan, aka the highest level of shape manipulation, is what was difficult. Ordinary Nature and Shape Transformation of Ninjutsu happen regularly when it comes to the higher leveled shinobi.

-Kisame making Suiton in the form of small sharks, many small sharks and a giant shark.
-Every time an Uchiha uses Fire Ball Jutsu, Phoenix Flower Jutsu, Dragon Flame Jutsu etc.
-Sasuke and Kakashi with Chidori/Raikiri and variants. [

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Shape Manipulation is literally what makes the shape of a jutsu. Nothing more. Rasengan is difficult because Highest level of shape manipulation+chakra change in nature is what makes it difficult. Not the simple fact that it's shape manipulation+chakra manipulation.

And what is especially hilarious is that you are still arguing this nonsense when it doesn't change a thing. Kisame spits the water out for his jutsu, then said water becomes his technique. That is exactly what you are saying. That does not yield any different result nor is it any different from him saying he can use those jutsu without an external water source. What you are doing is dragging on this dumb argument just for the sake of dragging it on instead of simply admitting that you are wrong.

However, once Naruto used an extra clone, he was capable of bypassing the process of elemental manipulation and instead, prioritized on shape manipulation which enabled him to complete the jutsu. The same pertained to Kisame. When Kisame diverts most of his attention to performing both of these tasks, the outcome is less rewarding. When Kisame utilizes Suiton Dai Bakusui Shoha first, he accomplishes the elemental manipulation task. From there, Kisame can freely divert all of his chakra towards manipulating pre-existing water which enables him to create a larger scale jutsu because less chakra control and effort is actually needed in order to accomplish the task as was the case with Naruto and his Rasengan. You expressed your opposing argument rather clearly, but the reason I didn’t agree with it or more accurately, considered it to be a vain and hopeless argument was because spewing out tremendous amounts of Suiton isn’t equivalent to manifesting a jutsu of the same scale on his own when creating a pre-existing water source utilizes only elemental manipulation while replicating his own jutsu without a water source encompasses both shape manipulation and elemental manipulation, something Kakashi and Naruto established as a significantly more difficult task.

No, nothing you are saying has any basis because you decided you should base your claim off bad comparisons instead of simply conceding that you are wrong here. Rasengan+Nature is what is stated to be extremely hard because Rasengan is the highest form of shape manipulation. None of Kisame's jutsu come close to being on Rasengan's level when it comes to Shape Manipulation level thus this nonsense all falls flat on it's face. Is shape+element more difficult than one or the other in general? Yes. Is shape+element in general as difficult as Rasengan+element? No, obviously not.

@underlined: lmao. And who said it was? I literally said he'd spit out the water and then form his jutsu with it.

This was a rather convoluted argument and I was disinclined to presenting an everlasting argument in the first place, but in this case, I believed it was quite necessary because we were still in disagreement and it needed to be addressed why I seemingly neglected your premise in the first place. Hopefully that clears up any confusion.

So basically you just argued for 3-4 posts only to come to the conclusion that Kisame can use all his Suiton Jutsu on his own, which was my argument from the jump. So basically you just argued for 3-4 posts only to literally state the same exact thing I said in the beginning of this argument:

By simply spitting out the water needed to use said technique and then forming it into said technique? That's exactly what he did with Water Dome so you mentioning that doesn't help your case. He spat out the water for the jutsu and it became the water dome.

:lol Really now guy?

Kisame battled arduously against Roshi despite Roshi's techniques being ill-suited in handling Kisame's large-scale attacks. In comparison, Deidara and Sasori can weave around Kisame's attacks (at least more easily), has an inherent advantage through long-range attacks, and Kisame's flat-out going to have a more difficult time in hitting either of the duo. That's excluding how Sasori's attacks simply cleave through some of what Kisame has to offer, including Daikodan. For that reason, Kisame's performance against Roshi doesn't do him any justice here.

Ill suited? Most of Roshi's abilities weren't even seen on panel. Not to mention Lava isn't automatically ill suited to fight water. If Lava is hot enough it'll boil and evaporate whatever water it comes into contact with, so if anything Roshi being able to push Kisame somewhat is a testament to Roshi's abilities not a detriment to Kisame's abilities. Deidara is capable of evading any attack besides the formation of WD, but Sasori? lmao. Sasori isn't as fast as Deidara, not even close. Sasori's attacks won't cleave through Daikodan either. The force of Hirudora ripping into it didn't destroy the shark completely. The best Sasori can do is defend from it as EjBlack mentioned.

Kisame's performance against Roshi doesn't do anything for him period. Whether negative or bad. That's terrible logic only used if you are going out of your way to downplay a character. :lol

The evidence I presented came from the Databook and I synthesized information to arrive to a conclusion. How is that dishonest? Did I fabricate the information in any sort of way when I evidently bolded Kishimoto's words and didn't tamper with it in any sort of way?

You took Kishimoto's mention of Tobirama's Suiton and decided to say that the entire feat was about strength even though the DB doesn't even begin to say anything about the strength of his jutsu besides using the term "fury" to denote t

That said, I actually was aware of that statement, but that statement was suspect to ambiguity because you interpreted it rather differently than I did. This is why I didn’t use it and instead, synthesized other pieces of information to interpret that statement correctly. Clearly, you failed to understand why I brought the Databook Entry of Hiruzen’s Doton Wall and it was used to denote Kishimoto’s reference to sheer power. Everything within that scene was meant to establish the Hokages being in a different realm of power, something that was emphasized for both Hiruzen’s Doton Wall and Tobirama’s Suiton. Therefore, the Anbu was stupefied not because Tobirama used a jutsu that powerful (which doesn’t make sense to begin with), but because he managed to use Suiton on such a massive scale even when devoid of a water source. The next part, I won’t bother addressing unless necessary because it’d just be arguing semantics.

What? There is only one interpretation. What he said is pretty clear cut and easy to understand as long as you aren't arguing with a biased mindset like you've done from the beginning of this post. The anbu clearly stated that Tobirama was amazing for being able to use a Suiton like that on dry land. Thus strength and DRY LAND are the important parts. Being able to use a Suiton like that on dry land is one of the reasons why they said this is a Hokage level battle alongside the power of the jutsu. Again, basic reading comprehension.

@bold: Did I ever say that the Anbu was referring to his strength? Are you arguing against imaginary people now? The strength+the fact it was on dry land is why it's a good feat. That's what I've been arguing and once again you type up paragraphs of rebuttals only to end up agreeing with my post.

My argument was that even for someone as clever as Kakashi, Kakashi found that there were no openings for Deidara to exploit. Kisame's not an elite tactician, nor does he possess techniques that are effective at a long-range, so for Kisame to exploit an opening for something Deidara has knowledge on is unlikely, especially when Kisame's seal and body-motion would literally be a cue for Deidara as to what Kisame is doing anyways.

Not having openings doesn't translate to not being able to be caught by an attack. Who here was arguing that Deidara gets caught because he'd leave himself wide open or anything even remotely on the lines of that? Deidara will be caught because he is not fast enough to escape. Being prepared and being on guard don't change that.

Confused at what you're trying to prove when the only reason Deidara was engulfed by the sand in the first place is because he was fascinated by Gaara's Gourd Sand and lost track of what was going on behind him. None of what you presented proves that Gaara's Desert Sand was an issue and given the fact that he almost escaped it and Gaara even believed that he needed to use his Gourd Sand to subdue him only substantiates my claim that only Gaara's Gourd Sand was an issue which was illustrated throughout the entire clash. Can you provide me some scans that Gaara's Desert Sand gave Deidara issues when he was actually focused?

No you cannot, so instead of bickering, give me an explanation of how Deidara legitimately failed against Deidara's Sand because given what was illustrated, only Gaara's Gourd Sand gave Deidara the greatest challenge, not his Gourd Sand.

Fine. You can have this point. Doesn't really matter in the end because someone far faster than Deidara has already failed to escape the area of effect of the Water Dome.

Kisame's Suiton being greater than Gaara's Desert Sand when Kisame lacks topographical advantage is a baseless claim, but that's irrelevant when Kisame's attacks can't chase Deidara nor have the flexibility to constantly challenge Deidara. Regardless, my point was that large scale attacks in general have never overwhelmed Deidara, only sheer speed has and this was consistently presented in the manga. Given that Kisame doesn't specialize in speed, he's going to have a far more difficult time doing anything substantial against the team.

Kisame's Suiton is superior to the attacks Gaara was using as Deidara. His dome is far larger than any boss summon thus it is far larger than a Bijuu, and no attack Gaara used against Deidara on panel is as large as a Bijuu in terms of scale or so much larger that they'd be rivals or that Deidara would be superior. Needing flexibility is irrelevant because no one argued that it'd be necessary nor is it necessary. Killer B (far far faster than Deidara) was faced with this attack in canon and instead of evading he was caught. Unless Deidara obtained speed on par with that of 7 Tailed V1 B there is no reason why he can fly outside the area of effect without being caught.

Don't start talking about about topographical advantages when Kisame at 30% has already rivaled the scale of Gaara's Sand Hands and Sand Coffin let alone 100% Kisame.

 

[unknownvillain1254]

Sasori's poison has been proven not to be dissolvable in water.

Regardless, once the Sandaime Kazekage puppet has been debilitated, Kisame can just end the jutsu and neg his ass. Sasori has absolutely no way of countering Waterdome because it was manifested in a mere instance and that dome reached the width of a mountain and a relatively significant height. There's literally no one who can escape it unless you're Minato.

Based off of what kind of evidence

why would he need to counter the water down he does not have lung and water dome has little to no effect on him or his puppets

 

[Jhin]

Kisame and Kakuzu win this imo