[VS] Kisame and Kakuzu Vs Deidara and Sasori

[NarutoX28]

Am I the only one who sees Kakuzu as the weak link in this battle? I mean yeah he has 5 hearts but beyond that what is there really? His doton armor? Sasori killed the strongest Kazekage while Kakuzu failed to kill the strongest Hokage. Truth is the fight could go either way depending on who's laying it out, I'd like Sasori's team to win since I like him more than the other 3 but there's no way to say as a fact his team would win.

Kakuzu seems better suited given how Katon can demagnetize Sasori's Satetsu while his Raiton nullifies Deidara's bombs. Kisame seems more of a hindrance when his water source just empowers the explosion of Deidara's bombs substantially.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Kakuzu doesn't need to separate from his mask to use it's Ninjutsu, and Kisame and Kakuzu have a way to evade/redirect/block almost every single offensive attack the enemy team can produce. So that's not happening.

Evade: The only thing they can evade here is a direct hit from C1's and Large blocks IS (which Sasori has no reason to use in this match). They are food for IS spike launch. Only option here is to stay underwater, which Clay explosion makes them food too. Surface = Death by Spikes. Water = Death by Explosion.

Redirect: Atsugai is the only thing that can blow back an attack, which will be useless in a team match where the opponents ability can change their attack mid flight, along the fact that they dont have to be in the same area together and range of Futon.

Block: No one is blocking underwater explosion, the shockwave alone is going to cause internal damage, So Kakuzu enhancing his skin isnt doing much for this type of attack. And I dont even have to mention Kisame because he has zero ways to block.

No one is blocking IS spikes on surface because for Kisame = death, 1 spike for Kisame and 1 spike for Samehada.

Your not suppose to block IS, stated in canon, so Kakuzu blocking it with Domu just means it will latch on him after it loses its shape from the impact. Which Sasori can use it to hold him down for the next attack he can't block or bring hold him up making him completely vulnerable in air.

 

[KidGamer65]

Redirect: Atsugai is the only thing that can blow back an attack, which will be useless in a team match where the opponents ability can change their attack mid flight, along the fact that they dont have to be in the same area together and range of Futon.

Uh, no. Deidara nor Sasori have shown to be able to change the trajectory of their attack to the extent needed to evade Atsugai and remain on course towards the targets, especially if Kakuzu doesn't release his jutsu till their jutsu are close. Sure, they can attack from 2 different angles, but either person can block or evade either attack so in the end they accomplish nothing.

Block: No one is blocking underwater explosion, the shockwave alone is going to cause internal damage, So Kakuzu enhancing his skin isnt doing much for this type of attack. And I dont even have to mention Kisame because he has zero ways to block.

No one is blocking IS spikes on surface because for Kisame = death, 1 spike for Kisame and 1 spike for Samehada.

What you are saying makes no sense. Explosions don't function different underwater than they do above water. The only difference is that underwater they are far stronger. So if Domu can survive an underwater explosion he'd survive, but he's not so that doesn't even matter.

And why are you talking about underwater explosions in the first place? Who said Kisame and Kakuzu would ever go underwater? Subterranean Voyage isn't underwater. It's the Suiton version of Hiding like a Mole.

Your not suppose to block IS, stated in canon, so Kakuzu blocking it with Domu just means it will latch on him after it loses its shape from the impact. Which Sasori can use it to hold him down for the next attack he can't block or bring hold him up making him completely vulnerable in air.

Lmao I hope you realize that what you are saying here makes no sense as well. Iron Sand can't pierce Domu. When it hits him it won't latch on to him, that's clearly not how it works. It will either fall to the ground or it will return to Sasori. If he tries to bind him using Iron Sand Atsugai blows it away. Though Atsugai is capable of blowing it away even before Kakuzu gets hit so this doesn't matter.

 

[ToshiZO]

Am I the only one who sees Kakuzu as the weak link in this battle? I mean yeah he has 5 hearts but beyond that what is there really? His doton armor? Sasori killed the strongest Kazekage while Kakuzu failed to kill the strongest Hokage. Truth is the fight could go either way depending on who's laying it out, I'd like Sasori's team to win since I like him more than the other 3 but there's no way to say as a fact his team would win.

Kakuzu is the only reason this matchup is even debatable.

 

[NarutoX28]

What you are saying makes no sense. Explosions don't function different underwater than they do above water. The only difference is that underwater they are far stronger. So if Domu can survive an underwater explosion he'd survive, but he's not so that doesn't even matter.

And why are you talking about underwater explosions in the first place? Who said Kisame and Kakuzu would ever go underwater? Subterranean Voyage isn't underwater. It's the Suiton version of Hiding like a Mole.

Team Gai's barrage of attacks forced Kisame to escape underwater, so it's not a stretch for Kisame to escape underwater granted that Deidara's/Sasori's attacks overwhelm Kisame.

 

[KidGamer65]

Team Gai's barrage of attacks forced Kisame to escape underwater, so it's not a stretch for Kisame to escape underwater granted that Deidara's/Sasori's attacks overwhelm Kisame.

1. That was a 30% Kisame.
2. That was because he already had his lake in place. Not necessary where he has Kakuzu's assistance.

 

[NarutoX28]

1. That was a 30% Kisame.
2. That was because he already had his lake in place. Not necessary where he has Kakuzu's assistance.

It wouldn't matter, the course of action would be the same assuming that both Kisame and Kakuzu are incapable of defending against their attacks.

Then that puts a damper on Kisame's attacks without a water source. Might as well make this "Kakuzu vs. Deidara and Sasori" honestly.

 

[KidGamer65]

It wouldn't matter, the course of action would be the same assuming that both Kisame and Kakuzu are incapable of defending against their attacks.

Then that puts a damper on Kisame's attacks without a water source. Might as well make this "Kakuzu vs. Deidara and Sasori" honestly.

Then mentioning that as some kind of evidence for him doing the same thing here doesn't make sense, because Team Gai being able to force Kisame on his own to retreat underwater doesn't translate to Sasori and Deidara being able to force Kisame AND Kakuzu to retreat underwater.

Kisame doesn't need a water source to use the abilities he needs to use in this fight so no the fight obviously doesn't become Kakuzu vs. Deidara and Sasori. :lol

 

[NarutoX28]

Then mentioning that as some kind of evidence for him doing the same thing here doesn't make sense, because Team Gai being able to force Kisame on his own to retreat underwater doesn't translate to Sasori and Deidara being able to force Kisame AND Kakuzu to retreat underwater.

Kisame doesn't need a water source to use the abilities he needs to use in this fight so no the fight obviously doesn't become Kakuzu vs. Deidara and Sasori. :lol

I'm just saying how escaping underwater is a plausible argument given that Kisame has done it. Whether or not he'd be forced to do that here is debatable, but the fact of the matter Is that Kisame doing so is IC.

To use his respectable Suiton, he would need a water-source. Kisame certainly isn't with Kakuzu, Deidara, and Sasori's tier without a water source when he can't absorb Deidara or Sasori's chakra. Kisame is literally overshadowed by Kakuzu here.

 

[KidGamer65]

I'm just saying how escaping underwater is a plausible argument given that Kisame has done it. Whether or not he'd be forced to do that here is debatable, but the fact of the matter Is that Kisame doing so is IC.

To use his respectable Suiton, he would need a water-source. Kisame certainly isn't with Kakuzu, Deidara, and Sasori's tier without a water source when he can't absorb Deidara or Sasori's chakra. Kisame is literally overshadowed by Kakuzu here.

But is that the point? Who overshadows who doesn't matter because Kisame isn't fighting or competing with Kakuzu. What he can use without a source is all he needs until Kakuzu figures out that Deidara's attacks are Doton related or until he figures out that Raiton counters that.

-Water Clones.
-Water Shark Bullets.
-Samehada to block attacks.
-Subterranean Voyage to evade attacks.
-GSB, which isn't being destroyed by any of Deidara's bombs bar C3. Kakuzu can also feed it chakra via Ninjutsu to make it larger. The concussive power is enough to kill Deidara on impact and the chakra absorption properties would one shot all puppets and Sasori's core.

And why would he need to create a water source to use his most respectable Suiton? Bakusui Shoha and Dai Bakusui Shoha are techniques where he spits water out using his own chakra. Instead of using those jutsu with that water he'd use the ones listed above.

Even if Kisame were to use the Water Dome, trap the enemy team and fuse w/ Samehada it still wouldn't change their chances of winning. Their mobility in water is terrible and Kisame has his 1000 feeding sharks. Carelessly using explosives gets Deidara and Sasori blown to bits. Raiton Gian+Water Dome=GG Deidara. Sasori lives because he's a puppet but Deidara is a flesh human being. He'd be electrocuted and killed off. Kakuzu's anatomy prevents electrocution from killing him (that and his stock of hearts) while Kisame absorbs all chakra on contact.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Uh, no. Deidara nor Sasori have shown to be able to change the trajectory of their attack to the extent needed to evade Atsugai and remain on course towards the targets, especially if Kakuzu doesn't release his jutsu till their jutsu are close.

I can agree with @Bold.

I disagree by the fact that you think Kakuzu can react accordingly, specifically IS spike launch. What makes you believe Kauzu can time his jutsu in time to repel the speed of that attack, which forced a top notch reaction- character to block?

Sure, they can attack from 2 different angles, but either person can block or evade either attack so in the end they accomplish nothing.

They cant evade IS spike launch, and can only temporally block.
Higher explosion (C2) cant be blocked, and can only temporally evaded.

And why are you talking about underwater explosions in the first place? Who said Kisame and Kakuzu would ever go underwater? Subterranean Voyage isn't underwater. It's the Suiton version of Hiding like a Mole.

I was under the impression your following the majority debate of Kisame's first action. Also Kisame's character, starting off with terrain advantage.

Anyway my premise still stands. Kisame is still food for IS launch once he reaches surface, and softening the ground makes it easier to reach Kisame. And using Voyage mid battle is easy set up for land mines via Clay Clone.

Lmao I hope you realize that what you are saying here makes no sense as well. Iron Sand can't pierce Domu. When it hits him it won't latch on to him, that's clearly not how it works. It will either fall to the ground or it will return to Sasori. If he tries to bind him using Iron Sand Atsugai blows it away. Though Atsugai is capable of blowing it away even before Kakuzu gets hit so this doesn't matter.

@Bold[

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Rest of your point, I was under the impression that Chakra shield blocks differently then a complete harden body, since chakra shield blocks and repels by its density. If not, another shape would suffice via less lethal Drizzle or less compressed iron for splash effect.
How is he going to blow away an attack enveloped on him?
Ill wait for @underline response, first paragraph.

 

[Zexion~]

I can agree with @Bold.

I disagree by the fact that you think Kakuzu can react accordingly, specifically IS spike launch. What makes you believe Kauzu can time his jutsu in time to repel the speed of that attack, which forced a top notch reaction- character to block?



They cant evade IS spike launch, and can only temporally block.
Higher explosion (C2) cant be blocked, and can only temporally evaded.



I was under the impression your following the majority debate of Kisame's first action. Also Kisame's character, starting off with terrain advantage.

Anyway my premise still stands. Kisame is still food for IS launch once he reaches surface, and softening the ground makes it easier to reach Kisame. And using Voyage mid battle is easy set up for land mines via Clay Clone.



@Bold[

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Rest of your point, I was under the impression that Chakra shield blocks differently then a complete harden body, since chakra shield blocks and repels by its density. If not, another shape would suffice via less lethal Drizzle or less compressed iron for splash effect.
How is he going to blow away an attack enveloped on him?
Ill wait for @underline response, first paragraph.

You do realize that Sasori himself could very well be blown away if not damaged directly by Atsugai if its used? Not to mention if Sasori is going to be aerial the entire battle it means that much more time to react to his attacks.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

You do realize that Sasori himself could very well be blown away if not damaged directly by Atsugai if its used? Not to mention if Sasori is going to be aerial the entire battle it means that much more time to react to his attacks.

First off stop with all that dislikes, all petty and ****.

If Sasori is being blown away, it will be an insignificant of distance as a shell of compress Iron tanks with ease. Atugai aint doing no type of damage to a compress Iron that surpasses Gaara's own sand toughness.

There is zero significants of attack launch pattern between being used on foot or air. Since all of Sasori's attacks are launch-base anyway.

 

[NarutoX28]

But is that the point? Who overshadows who doesn't matter because Kisame isn't fighting or competing with Kakuzu. What he can use without a source is all he needs until Kakuzu figures out that Deidara's attacks are Doton related or until he figures out that Raiton counters that.

-Water Clones.
-Water Shark Bullets.
-Samehada to block attacks.
-Subterranean Voyage to evade attacks.
-GSB, which isn't being destroyed by any of Deidara's bombs bar C3. Kakuzu can also feed it chakra via Ninjutsu to make it larger. The concussive power is enough to kill Deidara on impact and the chakra absorption properties would one shot all puppets and Sasori's core.

And why would he need to create a water source to use his most respectable Suiton? Bakusui Shoha and Dai Bakusui Shoha are techniques where he spits water out using his own chakra. Instead of using those jutsu with that water he'd use the ones listed above.

It does matter. If you're so much as a hindrance that you're significantly weaker than your partner, than you're only a burden as was the case with Sasuke vs. Bee where Suigetsu and Jugo were denoted to be on the sidelines based on their uselessness on the battlefield. If Kisame is significantly overshadowed by Kakuzu which he will due to a lack of a water source, then he's burdensome and would be the equivalent of Kakuzu vs. Deidara and Sasori.

No offense, but your premise makes no sense. He uses those jutsu in the first place to launch even greater quantities of Suiton. That's explicitly why Suiton Dai Bakusui Shoha acted as the catalyst for Waterdome. Wouldn't make sense using it if he could use Waterdome of a relatively similar size without it. The only jutsu I see being effective here is the Ten Thousand Feeding Sharks, but the feat illustrated in the manga was done with the Hachibi's chakra and a gargantuan water source that blankets V2 Manda easily. Only his respectable feats involved him taking advantage of his opponent's chakra and topography, so there's literally absolutely no reason to believe his Suiton would play an integral part in this fight when devoid of a water source.

Either way, Deidara had no issues circumnavigating Gaara's sand which was also used on a colossal scale and is more flexible in its usage. At least in Kakuzu's case, he can initiate a barrage of attacks that are actually effective in all ranges when the same doesn't apply to Kisame. He's simply overshadowed by Kakuzu in this case.

Even if Kisame were to use the Water Dome, trap the enemy team and fuse w/ Samehada it still wouldn't change their chances of winning. Their mobility in water is terrible and Kisame has his 1000 feeding sharks. Carelessly using explosives gets Deidara and Sasori blown to bits. Raiton Gian+Water Dome=GG Deidara. Sasori lives because he's a puppet but Deidara is a flesh human being. He'd be electrocuted and killed off. Kakuzu's anatomy prevents electrocution from killing him (that and his stock of hearts) while Kisame absorbs all chakra on contact.

Sasori and Deidara would simply avoid the range of Waterdome. Not sure why it'd be an issue.

 

[KidGamer65]

It does matter. If you're so much as a hindrance that you're significantly weaker than your partner, than you're only a burden as was the case with Sasuke vs. Bee where Suigetsu and Jugo were denoted to be on the sidelines based on their uselessness on the battlefield. If Kisame is significantly overshadowed by Kakuzu which he will due to a lack of a water source, then he's burdensome and would be the equivalent of Kakuzu vs. Deidara and Sasori.

Then whether or not this is the case will be determined in this argument, but so far I've seen no good reason from you why he's a hindrance. You keep going on and on about how it's practically only Kakuzu vs. Deidara and Sasori but when arguments for how Kisame helps are presented instead of actually addressing them you dodge them and give me some half cocked response.

No offense, but your premise makes no sense. He uses those jutsu in the first place to launch even greater quantities of Suiton. That's explicitly why Suiton Dai Bakusui Shoha acted as the catalyst for Waterdome. Wouldn't make sense using it if he could use Waterdome of a relatively similar size without it. The only jutsu I see being effective here is the Ten Thousand Feeding Sharks, but the feat illustrated in the manga was done with the Hachibi's chakra and a gargantuan water source that blankets V2 Manda easily. Only his respectable feats involved him taking advantage of his opponent's chakra and topography, so there's literally absolutely no reason to believe his Suiton would play an integral part in this fight when devoid of a water source.

What are you even talking about? What you are saying doesn't make sense because you clearly have a very bad habit of not reading and addressing what's in front of you and instead going on a tangent about irrelevant drivel. Is Kisame creating that water with a pre existing source or with his own chakra?

-His own chakra. That's a fact.

So what stops him from using:

-GSB
-Feeding Sharks
-Shark Bullets
-etc.

By simply spitting out the water needed to use said technique and then forming it into said technique? That's exactly what he did with Water Dome so you mentioning that doesn't help your case. He spat out the water for the jutsu and it became the water dome. Address this when you respond and don't dance around it. Hachibi's chakra is irrelevant. How does Hachibi's chakra change anything being said here?

Either way, Deidara had no issues circumnavigating Gaara's sand which was also used on a colossal scale and is more flexible in its usage. At least in Kakuzu's case, he can initiate a barrage of attacks that are actually effective in all ranges when the same doesn't apply to Kisame. He's simply overshadowed by Kakuzu in this case.

Deidara got caught by Gaara's Sand. So no. Gaara's sand hands alone are also not on the same scale as Kisame's Suiton either so him being able to evade that once and get caught later isn't a good feat. If you are just referring to the techniques I listed above then sure, he can dodge those. But does that really matter in the end? No, because those techniques aren't what finish him. Those are what let him and Kakuzu survive till Kakuzu figures out Deidara's weakness.

Sasori and Deidara would simply avoid the range of Waterdome. Not sure why it'd be an issue.

Based on what? If you want to discuss this you're gonna have to support your claims with evidence. 90% of this post isn't even a rebuttal.

 

[ToshiZO]

Based on what? If you want to discuss this you're gonna have to support your claims with evidence. 90% of this post isn't even a rebuttal.

Based on Deidara being an aerial combatant who runs to his birds the moment a fight begins?

 

[KidGamer65]

Based on Deidara being an aerial combatant who runs to his birds the moment a fight begins?

No, he starts on the ground and then goes in the air if he can't handle the opponent on the ground. The battle starts from 15 meters. Kisame knows of his aerial capabilities. Good luck to him if he thinks he's going to outrun the dome's formation from that close.

 

[KidGamer65]

I can agree with @Bold.

I disagree by the fact that you think Kakuzu can react accordingly, specifically IS spike launch. What makes you believe Kauzu can time his jutsu in time to repel the speed of that attack, which forced a top notch reaction- character to block?

Chiyo does not have top notch reactions. Lmao. Reacting to FRS doesn't give you top notch reactions. Kimimaro did so. Every path of Pain did so as well. Are you going to argue that every path, including Naraka (just look at it vs. Konohamaru) is faster than Atsugai's execution time which would be far faster than Kakuzu's own movements? I hope not. Hand signs aren't needed either when the mask is merged with Kakuzu's body so I'm 99% sure that Iron Sand isn't hitting him faster than Atsugai can be used.

They cant evade IS spike launch, and can only temporally block.
Higher explosion (C2) cant be blocked, and can only temporally evaded.

Temporary? Domu isn't temporary. Samehada isn't temporary. C2 doesn't damage Domu, and Subterranean Voyage isn't a temporary evasion method.

I was under the impression your following the majority debate of Kisame's first action. Also Kisame's character, starting off with terrain advantage.

Anyway my premise still stands. Kisame is still food for IS launch once he reaches surface, and softening the ground makes it easier to reach Kisame. And using Voyage mid battle is easy set up for land mines via Clay Clone.

It doesn't stand, at all.

-Iron Sand is used.
-Kisame sinks and dodges it and then reemerges after said attack hits the ground. Softening the ground does nothing because Kisame won't remain in that same position he sunk from.

And I'm not seeing why he'd be able to set up the land mines any easier than normal. If his clone tries to set up mines Kakuzu obliterates it w/ Atsugai or Atsugai/Zukkoku Combo or Kisame uses his Shark Bullets.

@Bold[

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That's one of the variants that Kakuzu or Kisame are fast enough to avoid considering Sakura herself is capable of reacting to it so even if it can pierce Domu they should be safe. Either that or Kakuzu can redirect it with Atsugai. Sakura in Early Part 2 is strong enough to knock around Sasori's Iron Sand and Atsugai is far stronger than that.

Rest of your point, I was under the impression that Chakra shield blocks differently then a complete harden body, since chakra shield blocks and repels by its density. If not, another shape would suffice via less lethal Drizzle or less compressed iron for splash effect.
How is he going to blow away an attack enveloped on him?
Ill wait for @underline response, first paragraph.

I don't see why it would. Iron Sand has no special adhesive properties so if it crashes into something it can't pierce then it'd either bounce off or just fall to the ground. The shield shouldn't have any special reflective properties or anything like that. If it can't pierce or scratch him then it can't poison him.

It wouldn't envelop him. After it hits him it still has to transform from the spike that had hit him and fell to the ground into whatever shape that'll be used to bind Kakuzu and that's when Atsugai blows him away. That or he simply gets out of the way.

 

[ToshiZO]

No, he starts on the ground and then goes in the air if he can't handle the opponent on the ground. The battle starts from 15 meters. Kisame knows of his aerial capabilities. Good luck to him if he thinks he's going to outrun the dome's formation from that close.

What? You think Kisame is going to employ the WD before Deidara can hop on one of his birds and take flight?

WD is utterly useless here Kisame is not going to go with WD when he has a partner beside him. Not to mention Kisame going for WD first thing is completely out of character.

You're telling me Kisame and Kakuzu are going to stop Deidara from doing something routine for him with Sasori there as well? Very unrealistic scenario.

 

[KidGamer65]

What? You think Kisame is going to employ the WD before Deidara can hop on one of his birds and take flight?

WD is utterly useless here Kisame is not going to go with WD when he has a partner beside him. Not to mention Kisame going for WD first thing is completely out of character.

You're telling me Kisame and Kakuzu are going to stop Deidara from doing something routine for him with Sasori there as well? Very unrealistic scenario.

No, WD is going to be set up before he can get on his bird and fly completely out of range. Clearly a big difference between these two statements.

-It's not useless.
-His partner isn't hurt by it so that's an irrelevant point to bring up.
-IC and OOC. Lmao. Characters battle strategies change all the time based on who they are fighting. There is literally nothing different about this scenario, and even if Deidara got in the air first it still wouldn't matter for the simple fact that Deidara at his normal fighting altitude isn't above Water Dome's area of effect.

And what does Sasori do to actually stop any of this from occurring whether or not Deidara has taken flight?