[Discussion] Kage Level Ranking

[Toad Sage]

You're mostly right about Naruto and Jiraiya, but you've messed up a few things.

First, most people misunderstand what Fukasaku was saying about naruto surpassing Jiraiya and the Fourth.

He is NOT saying that in a fight between current Naruto and either of those two, Naruto wins. That's just silly, They're THE FOURTH and JIRAIYA. He was acknowledging the fact that Naruto will surpass both of them, and in some ways already has (made Rasenshuriken which Fourth couldn't finish, has a better mastery of Sage mode than Jiraiya). Jiraiya is still an extremely powerful ninja, and I'm adamant that without Sage mode, Jiraiya is still stronger than Naruto. Plus, as again most poeple like to skate over, Pain DID technically defeat Naruto and could have killed him. So they both lost to Pain.

Anyways, why don't we call them even.

Another thing that people tend to forget is that Naruto has mastered it by himself, true, but that's the point. Due to the fact that Jiraiya is combining the power of three users of sage mode allows his version to be better than Naruto's. It's like three on one. Plus, Jiraiya tends to use his partial transformation into a toad as a weapon. Due to the experience and number factors Jiraiya's Sage Mode is still better. Like the person above posted: Fukusaku was leaning more towards the fact that Naruto will surpass Jiraiya.

 

[sageofmyobokuzan]

no offense blizzard but did you really say pain did not know about the destructive power of the kyuubi??? because based on the manga pain would have had to be retarded not to know the destructive power of the kyuubi, and i mean a retard. the legend says the kyuubi can destroy mountains with the swipe of a SINGLE tail, pain deserved to lose that fight if he didnt expect the kyuubi to be extremely powerful. and to all the people who say that pain used a lot of chakra fighting the rest of the village looking for naruto then i have this to say: pain went into konoha expecting naruto to be there, so he intended to fight the whole village as well, so why should that take anything away from naruto's victory, pain made the decision to waste his chakra destroying the village not naruto, so why handicap naruto? doesnt that just make pain reckless like kisame blatantly using kb's chakra attracting the attention of raikage?? naruto's victory should not be handicapped due to pain's rash decisions. naruto made better choices in that fight than pain thats why he won. and he did win, ya nagato changed his mind but that was due to naruto, so naruto beat him with his will, a full on defeat. and ya the fox took control but did any of us really see naruto fighting the most powerful villain in the manga to that point without the kyuubi making its most badass appearance yet?!? there have been a large number of people who have hated on the fox's appearance in that fight and i do not understand it. i mean how interesting would naruto b without the fox?!?! and yet he finally goes apeshit in the manga and people start hating on it. dont understand it at all

 

[almasyan]

Look, i think madara has to be the strongest as the main antologist... or probably sage of six paths.
BUT Orochimaru's edo tensei jutsu still can pwn any1.Having DNA of strongest ninjas he can win ANY1 hands down.

 

[Blizzard589]

no offense blizzard but did you really say pain did not know about the destructive power of the kyuubi??? because based on the manga pain would have had to be retarded not to know the destructive power of the kyuubi, and i mean a retard. the legend says the kyuubi can destroy mountains with the swipe of a SINGLE tail, pain deserved to lose that fight if he didnt expect the kyuubi to be extremely powerful. and to all the people who say that pain used a lot of chakra fighting the rest of the village looking for naruto then i have this to say: pain went into konoha expecting naruto to be there, so he intended to fight the whole village as well, so why should that take anything away from naruto's victory, pain made the decision to waste his chakra destroying the village not naruto, so why handicap naruto? doesnt that just make pain reckless like kisame blatantly using kb's chakra attracting the attention of raikage?? naruto's victory should not be handicapped due to pain's rash decisions. naruto made better choices in that fight than pain thats why he won. and he did win, ya nagato changed his mind but that was due to naruto, so naruto beat him with his will, a full on defeat. and ya the fox took control but did any of us really see naruto fighting the most powerful villain in the manga to that point without the kyuubi making its most badass appearance yet?!? there have been a large number of people who have hated on the fox's appearance in that fight and i do not understand it. i mean how interesting would naruto b without the fox?!?! and yet he finally goes apeshit in the manga and people start hating on it. dont understand it at all

Ok dude really? Did you see Deva's face when 8 tail cloak Naruto broke out of the Chibaku Tensei mini moon? He really thought that would have been enough to hold him. And I'm not talking about all this situation crap. If you think like the one standing at the end of the fight is the winner no matter what happens then yeah Naruto won. But thats bullshit because its not taking into account all the ridiculous things that happened. Do you not realize that Deva path, the most powerful one, didn't have his powers for the first half of the fight? I'm not saying anything about the Kyuubi, since the Kyuubi is a part of Naruto's abilities. Pain could've killed Naruto at several points before the kyuubi emerged and Naruto was trying his hardest. I'm not talking about choices made or possible outside interference. I'm talking about one on one fights between shinobi to measure ability so that we can rank them. And that's it.

 

[Blizzard589]

Look, i think madara has to be the strongest as the main antologist... or probably sage of six paths.
BUT Orochimaru's edo tensei jutsu still can pwn any1.Having DNA of strongest ninjas he can win ANY1 hands down.

Madara is probably the strongest but we have yet to see him fight that's why I didn't include him.

Orochimaru is definitely not the strongest as Itachi could've killed him. Jiraiya with sage mode could've killed him. Pain definitely could've killed him. Sasuke once he masters MS can kill him. Sarutobi in his prime could've killed him.

 

[sageofmyobokuzan]

Ok dude really? Did you see Deva's face when 8 tail cloak Naruto broke out of the Chibaku Tensei mini moon? He really thought that would have been enough to hold him. And I'm not talking about all this situation crap. If you think like the one standing at the end of the fight is the winner no matter what happens then yeah Naruto won. But thats bullshit because its not taking into account all the ridiculous things that happened. Do you not realize that Deva path, the most powerful one, didn't have his powers for the first half of the fight? I'm not saying anything about the Kyuubi, since the Kyuubi is a part of Naruto's abilities. Pain could've killed Naruto at several points before the kyuubi emerged and Naruto was trying his hardest. I'm not talking about choices made or possible outside interference. I'm talking about one on one fights between shinobi to measure ability so that we can rank them. And that's it.

he did not have his powers due to a choice he made. no one made pain destroy konoha. and ya pain may not have had the intention of killing naruto but when sasuke fought kb he said that to capture him he would need to fight him with the intention of killing him. i think we can assume from this statement that to defeat jinchuuriki's you had to fight with killing intent, think about it, hidan stabbed himself in through the gut to kill defeat the 2tail jinchuuriki, the 4 tails was on the brink of death, kisame said he was fading, deidara blew his bombs up inches from gaara's face (bombs that were capable of blowing those guards heads up) and are you really gonna tell me chibaku tensei wasnt a move used with the intent of killing naruto??

 

[Valkyria]

he did not have his powers due to a choice he made. no one made pain destroy konoha. and ya pain may not have had the intention of killing naruto but when sasuke fought kb he said that to capture him he would need to fight him with the intention of killing him. i think we can assume from this statement that to defeat jinchuuriki's you had to fight with killing intent, think about it, hidan stabbed himself in through the gut to kill defeat the 2tail jinchuuriki, the 4 tails was on the brink of death, kisame said he was fading, deidara blew his bombs up inches from gaara's face (bombs that were capable of blowing those guards heads up) and are you really gonna tell me chibaku tensei wasnt a move used with the intent of killing naruto??

Pain had to be handicapped before the fight so that Naruto's victory would look plausible. Kishi didn't make him waste half his chakra, disable his main body for half the battle, give Naruto plenty of information on how the Pain bodies worked plus back him up with more allies and have Naruto already in sage mode appear RIGHT AFTER the Chou Shinra Tensei, for no reason you know. Chibaku Tensei's intent was to imprison the nine tails like Rikudou Sennin did with the Juubi. What are you getting at?

 

[Blizzard589]

Pain had to be handicapped before the fight so that Naruto's victory would look plausible. Kishi didn't make him waste half his chakra, disable his main body for half the battle, give Naruto plenty of information on how the Pain bodies worked plus back him up with more allies and have Naruto already in sage mode appear RIGHT AFTER the Chou Shinra Tensei, for no reason you know. Chibaku Tensei's intent was to imprison the nine tails like Rikudou Sennin did with the Juubi. What are you getting at?

Yes! Lol tag team destruction. If people can't understand what we're trying to say after all we've said then it's probably hopeless...

 

[almasyan]

Madara is probably the strongest but we have yet to see him fight that's why I didn't include him.

Orochimaru is definitely not the strongest as Itachi could've killed him. Jiraiya with sage mode could've killed him. Pain definitely could've killed him. Sasuke once he masters MS can kill him. Sarutobi in his prime could've killed him.

having Pain's, 1-st hokage's 2 hokage's 4-th hokage's DNA and summoning him vs Itachi/jiraya/even without pains DNA having 3 kages-won't it make him a clear winner?he just had to be killed.and the way he was killed by itachi made ppl understimate him a lot.ofcourse there should be some special circumstances,cause for example itachi is really dangerous with his genjutsu tricks and Susanoo is smth that can't be defeated easily.
BTW i don't think jiraya could defeat orochimaru.i think naruto can only with his rasenshuriken.there should be some special jutsu to kill Orochimaru,smth like 4-th hokage's jutsu,Pain's soul extracting jutsu,Susanoo.remember even Amaterasu was avoided be Sasuke with Oroch;s trick.
That's my opinion but i would include Orochimaru in the top list along with Itachi,Pain,Madara,First hokage, Forth Hokage(only because he defeated 9 tails,he didn't stand a chance vs Madara as he said it himself in the manga) may be i forgot smbdy. danzou,sarutobi probably should be in the top list too...not sure

 

[NudieNovak]

correct me if im worng but dosent the edo tensei jutsu re animate the person at thier time of death? so the 3rd would only be fight like a 60yr old worn down hashirama anyways? cause they made hashirama/tobirama senju look weak in the manga imo

 

[almasyan]

correct me if im worng but dosent the edo tensei jutsu re animate the person at thier time of death? so the 3rd would only be fight like a 60yr old worn down hashirama anyways? cause they made hashirama/tobirama senju look weak in the manga imo

it just reanimate any person.1-st for example used his wood style and the 2-nd used his powerful water jutsus.but true they didn't look like badass ninjas

 

[peaceful]

The strongests: Sasuke, Itachi, Madara, Shishui. Uchihas and Senjus(maybe)
Everyone else if fodder.

 

[Blizzard589]

having Pain's, 1-st hokage's 2 hokage's 4-th hokage's DNA and summoning him vs Itachi/jiraya/even without pains DNA having 3 kages-won't it make him a clear winner?he just had to be killed.and the way he was killed by itachi made ppl understimate him a lot.ofcourse there should be some special circumstances,cause for example itachi is really dangerous with his genjutsu tricks and Susanoo is smth that can't be defeated easily.
BTW i don't think jiraya could defeat orochimaru.i think naruto can only with his rasenshuriken.there should be some special jutsu to kill Orochimaru,smth like 4-th hokage's jutsu,Pain's soul extracting jutsu,Susanoo.remember even Amaterasu was avoided be Sasuke with Oroch;s trick.
That's my opinion but i would include Orochimaru in the top list along with Itachi,Pain,Madara,First hokage, Forth Hokage(only because he defeated 9 tails,he didn't stand a chance vs Madara as he said it himself in the manga) may be i forgot smbdy. danzou,sarutobi probably should be in the top list too...not sure

How does Orochimaru have the DNA of all these ppl? Rasenshuriken can be blocked just like the Kyuubi destruction beam that he blocked with the Rashomon. I'm not saying it is easy to kill Orochimaru but remember Itachi was afraid of Jiraiya but he wasn't at all of Orochimaru. He also proved his superiority to Oro by taking him down easily with Susanoo and the Totsuka while Oro was using his strongest technique (the Yamata no Orochi or w/e). I don't think the Fourth actually fought Madara because he made it seem (when he was telling Naruto) like Madara was just hiding off in the woods somewhere controlling Kyuubi not actually fighting.

 

[peaceful]

How does Orochimaru have the DNA of all these ppl? Rasenshuriken can be blocked just like the Kyuubi destruction beam that he blocked with the Rashomon. I'm not saying it is easy to kill Orochimaru but remember Itachi was afraid of Jiraiya but he wasn't at all of Orochimaru. He also proved his superiority to Oro by taking him down easily with Susanoo and the Totsuka while Oro was using his strongest technique (the Yamata no Orochi or w/e). I don't think the Fourth actually fought Madara because he made it seem (when he was telling Naruto) like Madara was just hiding off in the woods somewhere controlling Kyuubi not actually fighting.

Itachi did not fear jiraiya...

 

[Blizzard589]

Itachi did not fear jiraiya...

He told Kisame that with both of them together, they might be able to sqeeze out a draw against Jiraiya. While that's probably not true, that is still how he felt and he was most likely, with his Sharingan, a fairly good judge of ability.

 

[peaceful]

He told Kisame that with both of them together, they might be able to sqeeze out a draw against Jiraiya. While that's probably not true, that is still how he felt and he was most likely, with his Sharingan, a fairly good judge of ability.

Nope you are wrong...

 

[eyesofthekyuubi44]

I never said he knew everything but he knew an aweful lot more than Jiraiya or anyone else because the slug compiled all the info for him.

Lets put this in list form:
Naruto knew:
1) 6 bodies
2) The real one wasn't with them
3) Preta path absorbs ninjutsu (which is close enough to absorbing straight chakra so if you're smart enough you can make the connection)
4) Deva path repelled or attracted everything
5) Deva path has a 5 second interval between uses of his powers
6) Deva path needs longer to recover after using larger version of his powers

Naruto didn't know:
1) Chibaku Tensei
2) King of Hell
3) Chakra controlling rods

Pain knew:
1) Naruto gets angry easily and is "unreasonable"
2) Naruto uses brute force and close range fighting (maybe)
3) Naruto trained under Jiraiya

Pain didn't know:
1) Sage Mode (very major thing, giant speed, strength, and chakra boost)
2) effects of natural energy
3) frog katas
4) FRS
5) extent of Kyuubi's destructive potential
6) Naruto's resolve

Naruto had a clear advantage the whole fight. If he didn't know about Preta's absorption he would have wasted an FRS right there to find out and would've started out much lower on energy. If they knew nothing of each other Pain would've wtfpwned Naruto.

Pain was weakened after his assault on the village. He used a crap load of power making that crater and Deva Path's abilities were gone for like the first half of the fight. Deva would've protected the 3 other bodies that died before he got his powers back with his Shinra Tensei. If they were both fresh Pain would've wtfpwned Naruto as Naruto would not have landed a single FRS due to Deva's rejection powers.

Pain wasn't trying to kill Naruto because he had to capture him so if this was an all out fight to the death (the only true way to measure two ninja against each other) Pain would've stabbed Naruto through the face when he Bansho Tennined his ass and had a black chakra blade sticking out waiting for him. With that move Pain can pretty much one hit ko anyone without an ultimate defense sort of thing. If Pain was trying to kill Naruto from the start he would've wtfpwned him.

Anything else you wanna argue? Or do you finally agree with the other posts I made?

Okay, so Naruto was trying to kill Pain? Oh I forget, Naruto always kills his opponents. Naruto ALWAYS kills, I mean look at the "Itachi" guy he used Oodama Rasengan on under the Kyuubi influence. He even said "I won't kill you", to the main Pain. Naruto had to keep track of 6 separate bodies. On top of that, Ninjutsu is made from chakra, and it is external. Chakra is kept internally. Oh yes, I forgot, Pain got behind JIRAIYA and absorbed his chakra, and then JIRAIYA wrote that on Fukasakus back... So theres another advantage.

1. Pain already fought against Sage Mode Jiraiya, took him out even though Jiraiya had Shima and Fukasaku on his shoulders. Naruto didn't, thought of some spur of the moment plan. I am sure that fighting someone in Sage Mode would alert you to what it can do. Pain faced it with Jiraiya, then faced it with Naruto.
2. The extent of Kyuubis destructional potential? Sakura probably knew that before she saw Narutos Kyuubi transformation. Everyone whose a ninja in the Naruto Universe already knows that the Kyuubi is the strongest of the beasts.
3. Narutos resolve isn't a fighting technique. That only came in handy after the fighting had stopped.
4. Naruto had been training right before he fought Pain. Pain was kickin it with the baddies right before he went to Konoha.

There is one more thing I'd like to argue...
PC or Mac?

 

[eyesofthekyuubi44]

no offense blizzard but did you really say pain did not know about the destructive power of the kyuubi??? because based on the manga pain would have had to be retarded not to know the destructive power of the kyuubi, and i mean a retard. the legend says the kyuubi can destroy mountains with the swipe of a SINGLE tail, pain deserved to lose that fight if he didnt expect the kyuubi to be extremely powerful. and to all the people who say that pain used a lot of chakra fighting the rest of the village looking for naruto then i have this to say: pain went into konoha expecting naruto to be there, so he intended to fight the whole village as well, so why should that take anything away from naruto's victory, pain made the decision to waste his chakra destroying the village not naruto, so why handicap naruto? doesnt that just make pain reckless like kisame blatantly using kb's chakra attracting the attention of raikage?? naruto's victory should not be handicapped due to pain's rash decisions. naruto made better choices in that fight than pain thats why he won. and he did win, ya nagato changed his mind but that was due to naruto, so naruto beat him with his will, a full on defeat. and ya the fox took control but did any of us really see naruto fighting the most powerful villain in the manga to that point without the kyuubi making its most badass appearance yet?!? there have been a large number of people who have hated on the fox's appearance in that fight and i do not understand it. i mean how interesting would naruto b without the fox?!?! and yet he finally goes apeshit in the manga and people start hating on it. dont understand it at all

I agree with most of what you said. Most, but I dont want to start another war. People seriously downplay Narutos strength. While Nagato is strong, we cannot say "if hinata didn't do this...then this wouldn't have happened", because we do not know what would have happened. On top of that, Naruto had been training right before.

 

[eyesofthekyuubi44]

Nope you are wrong...

He did say that...He isn't wrong.

 

[NineTailedSage]

Jiraiya knowing pains secret=win is like saying if Sakura knew all sasoris moves like chiyo she wouldnt have needed chiyo.

Ninjas have secrets and trump cards and battle plans to become BETTER.

Jiraiya lost fair and square

And last i checked Naruto who mastered sage mode, and used it twice in a row against Pain, with help from frog summons still got owned by god realm even after he had used mass amounts of chakra etc.

9tails is what got god realm, and even then Nagato was ready to make a bigger moon to trap 9tails in.

Naruto still has a ways to go before hes at Pains level

I have always stated Naruto beat Pain. When you put it like that, I can see your point. Any given Sunday right!