From what I read, I'm assuming you guys think it would only work on someone like Kabuto? Other than that it would be useless in any other encounters with anyone else (ie: Jiraiya, Minato). I don' think this jutsu is created only for identity crisis as OP is stated. It was used against Uchiha who used Izanagi, so they can complete or perform a specific task as required and failure wasn't an option. There was no identity crisis there, all they did was try changing fate by using Izanagi, so Izanami was invented to prevent that and make them realize they failed.
I however do agree with him it can be used in many different situation, but that identity crisis with Kabuto isn't the only thing. This is the only way we are seeing it used ATM and than what Itachi said about it being used in the past on Uchiha.
Kishi does interrupts a lot of things (in the wrong way) and barely gets his explanations right on things. Even at times facts from the manga will be irrelevant to a discussion at hand because of Kishi wonderful job of explaining.
It working on Oro is debatable. As Oro is pure evil, the ONLY it would work is if he can't admit to being defeated, but even he already admitted that once before. In fact, I think it wouldn't have any effect on Oro, as he really wanted to understand the way of the world and thus being done thru learning jutsu. Oro could careless about anything else.
No. The only opponents it can work against are those who deny who they really are, so this assessment of yours is not factual.
Apart from the real Madara Uchiha who is the epitome of arrogance and possibly the 4th Raikage, i can't really see anyone else trapped in this loop and unable to escape.
May i first say, you guys nearly got me. When i first came to this thread i had read the latest chapter although very well perhaps not well enough. I did believe at the start that can be used in any situation, but at a latter state in the thread was leaning towards what the op and you guys were saying. However its not after ive re read the latest manga 3 or more so times do i believe that what you guys are saying is NON SENSE and i was right the very first time.
Lets wait and see another izanami user use it in battle (im certain this wouldnt be the last time we see it) or what the databook says before we can fully state this because although i believe there are arguments for and against it, i believe its been twisted to suit what you believe and you can accuse me of the same thing. I do however believe im right, the reason as itachi stated it was labelled a kinjutsu is because a jutsu that can be broken is very risky and thats why he said it cannot REALLY be used. The world really has very powerful meaning to that statement
I think you either misinterpreted Itachi, or didn't see what he was really trying to say, but than again Kishi could have written it wrong, or translation could be off to. Kishi recently has always made some sort of mistake in explaining things.
Itachi said in the same page, that Izanami is considered Kinjutsu. Kinjutsu = forbidden techniques which shouldn't be taught or used. As of what we know there can be two ways you can look at it:
1. A jutsu that does harm to the user.
2. A jutsu that breaks the law.
Multiple shadow clone is consider a kinjutsu (harm to oneself), simply due to the fact that it can bring any user to the brink of death becasue of the amount of chakra it uses (other than Naruto). This tech. shouldn't be taught or used, but yet we see Naruto using it.
A jutsu that breaks the law would be Tobirama IWR, as it requires a human sacrifice to resurrect the dead. We still see this kinjutsu being used by Oro and Kabuto.
Death Seal Reaper could go in either one, as it not only harms the user (killing him), but the person its used on, but we still seen this used by Minato and third.
Izanagi/Izanami effect the users, reason why it is a kinjutsu, but shouldn't be used in fight, but we seen Danzo/Tobi use Izanagi and Itachi now use Izanami in battles.
I believe this is what Itachi spoke of, other than Naruto if anyone else used Multiple shadow clone, they will be really low on chakra, and on verge of death pretty much. Izanagi/Izanami are the same, the users one eye sight is gone and if countered well than the user is pretty much screwed.
If Izanami is used to counter Izanagi, and Tobi/Danzo used Izanagi in battle, but Izanami can't be used in battle? How would that make any sense? Or rather how would that be a counter if not able to use in battle VS Izanagi user?
This is why I don't think Izanami is useless in battle, but rather better to be used in a battle VS someone with Izanagi to counter it and/or punish them as stated.
I believe the situation is reversed here you’re putting things out of context by diverting attention away from Itachi’s quote and instead talk about something totally irrelevant since he explained perfectly well why it became forbidden, you went off on a tangent ( note that I’m ”saying” this in a nice tone ).
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It is labeled a Kinjutsu for no other reason that it’s too dangerous since people can escape it; at least this is what Itachi himself stated. The thing is every technique can be broken so it’s not a good enough reason to ban such a powerful technique, unless of course the vast majority of people out there are immune to such an attack. It would basically be suicide (no pun intended with losing an eye and everything.) if you attempted it and you didn’t know whether or not it would actually work. Anyway, enough people within the clan judged it unusable, the majority of times. This is canon no matter how you look at it, and you need canon to counter said statement.
Most people within the Uchiha would also use this technique to their own advantage, if it could be used on everyone, and start overthrowing the government, plus people like Danzo and Madara would have nowhere to hide.Imagine the fun of seeing everybody like Kabuto currently is, standing there like joke. Unfortunately, this is not the case as I have shown above.
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As you can see Kabuto is a rare exception, because he does not accept his true destiny and he actively tries to be someone other than himself. Itachi relates to him and is familiar with his true resolve, so he instantly knew that would be susceptible to Izanami, and as a Immortal he wouldn’t cry over a loss eye plus he could regenerate over and over again, which means he had a high chance of hitting Kabuto with Izanami ( turned out he needed Sasuke, too).
The people who previously spammed Izanagi very quickly became arrogant and had sense of self-entitlement they didn’t previously have, which means they lost themselves, and Izanami was the way to get them back- and punish them.
Most of the other shinobi don’t have a problem with accepting their true-self/destiny, so the technique would be instantly broken, on contact (likely subconsciously). This would explain why the jutsu was deemed unusable in combat by the uchiha clan, plus you have no way of knowing someone’s intent without previous intel. People just like to assume that everyone will be in Kabuto’s position ( if they would it wouldn’t be unusable in battle).
Finally, you lose Susano’o, one other Ms jutsu, chakra plus you lose your light in one of your eyes.
Sheep?, i always go with my beliefs i thought you knew that. Lets just wait and see if another izanami user would arrive and use it in battle, but also the DB. As for the status im not sure what you mean. Ive just found something interesting thats all
Sheep?, i always go with my beliefs i thought you knew that. Lets just wait and see if another izanami user would arrive and use it in battle, but also the DB. As for the status im not sure what you mean. Ive just found something interesting thats all
Believe it or not ive been proven right several times later on in the manga therefore id trust my instinct. Certain this isnt the last we have seen of izanami though, so we will see who is right.
As for the status there is one more thread i have to create before i jump onto something else. Dont think we are allowed to advertise therefore its called;
I have a totally different analysis on It... It can't be used on everyone, But i can be used on alot of people... I explained why in detail in the "We thought izanami was Itachi's strongest jutsu " thread..
Believe it or not ive been proven right several times later on in the manga therefore id trust my instinct. Certain this isnt the last we have seen of izanami though, so we will see who is right.
As for the status there is one more thread i have to create before i jump onto something else. Dont think we are allowed to advertise therefore its called;
I have a totally different analysis on It... It can't be used on everyone, But i can be used on alot of people... I explained why in detail in the "We thought izanami was Itachi's strongest jutsu " thread..
But I skimmed through that thread and you are basically saying,I think, that you could use Izanami several different ways, and it’s the caster himself who decides what loop to put the victim in and what path to choose i.e. Itachi can tweak to his liking. Correct me if I’m wrong..
Nothing it in the Manga suggests that, it’s about finding who you really are, good or bad, and accepting it. Specifically designed for misguided people. I have explained my reasoning above.
Izanami is the type of Jutsu that would work on almost everyone with very few exceptions.Don't get me wrong, Alot of people will end up getting out of it faster than others....but as Itachi said , Noone is perfect.. people have personal demons of some nature that they are haunted by. Most people put on a positive facade to seem like they have themselves together when they really don't. Izanami exploits that denial.
Basically if you are wrong, Izanami works. Considering it's human nature to be fallible, that means everybody is potentially susceptible to it.
And you are right, ITACHI is right... It isn't a practical jutsu to be used in battle, as for the reasons he stated.. but it IS a practical jutsu to be used in Itachi's hands.. simply because as kabuto pointed out, he has the ability to read the opponents and their emotions well...
"Accepting ones destiny" is a broad statement in all and for every person it would be different... I don't believe it's only for people who have lost their way... actually in a sense , sure.. but once again "losing your way" is another broad thing that can mean anything..
Kabuto was afraid to fail, and convinced himself he can't fail by getting more powerful no matter what(becoming others)
Uchihas were escaping their mistakes through izanagi because they weren't allowed to fail in war...
It was INVENTED to save uchihas from their arrogance and stop them from running away from their mistakes and problems
When you acknowledge your mistakes and problems the jutsu dissapates right? good, now you would THINK most ninja already acknowledge their problems...
But deep down, ninjas like kakashi and tsunade blame themselves for the deaths of loved ones... Naruto previously was arrogant in his abilities so much that he thought he could solo the entire war himself without help...Sasuke is just a shitload of problems waiting to happen....
Izanagi doesn't only work on arrogance as far as what itachi has stated... It would work on any problem someone has...
Now why can it be used in a deadly manner?
Well we know it was a jutsu that was originally intended to punish then FIX people.....
But what happens when you use izanagi on someone without telling them what is needed of them? If Itachi wasn't truly out to help kabuto as he said...and he wasn't continuously telling kabuto in the genjutsu "when are you going to stop trying to become orochimaru"
If he wasn't purposefully making kabuto question his actions as we see in the final pages... How long would kabuto be in it for? He wouldn't know what to do... He would have no idea that he would have to truly accept his mistakes and his problem to get out.... He'd be in the genjutsu forever...
Yes the jutsu is supposed to help people in a way.. but consider not helping them....Putting them in the genjutsu without telling them what they need to fix...How could they possibly know? All they know is that they are in a genjutsu forever.....
"When you ackowledge your results, and stop trying to run away.. the Jutsu disperses.." What is the results he speaks of? as i said mistakes and problems... When kabuto acknowledges that he can fail, when he acknowledges that he isn't all powerful... and when he acknowledges that he can't become someone else... he'll be free
t, it’s about finding who you really are, good or bad, and accepting it.
No it's not imo, The uchihas knew who they were... You use the term good or bad but honestly what does it mean to be good or bad in the ninja world? they lie, kill and steal for money... all of them do it.... Uchiha's back then and senju, were hired to fight in wars.. Mercenaries.. were they good or bad? , The jutsu isn't about good and bad, it isn't about arrogance per se , it's about human imperfections which everyone has... Itachi listed his problems and his mistakes to sasuke.. He even told sasuke he doesn't believe "Perfection" exists....
Right before jiraya died, he blamed himself for being unable to save his teacher, student etc, and one of his students was the wielder of rinnegan and possibly a bringer of death.....
Anything like that can be used in izanagi... No where did it state it was specifically for any one problem..It has obviously been tweaked for kabuto...
Just beause you see rasengan being used on only Konoha ninja, does that mean it can't be used on Suna ones?
May i first say, you guys nearly got me. When i first came to this thread i had read the latest chapter although very well perhaps not well enough. I did believe at the start that can be used in any situation, but at a latter state in the thread was leaning towards what the op and you guys were saying. However its not after ive re read the latest manga 3 or more so times do i believe that what you guys are saying is NON SENSE and i was right the very first time.
Lets wait and see another izanami user use it in battle (im certain this wouldnt be the last time we see it) or what the databook says before we can fully state this because although i believe there are arguments for and against it, i believe its been twisted to suit what you believe and you can accuse me of the same thing. I do however believe im right, the reason as itachi stated it was labelled a kinjutsu is because a jutsu that can be broken is very risky and thats why he said it cannot REALLY be used. The world really has very powerful meaning to that statement
So, basically you think that what we're saying is nonsense because kishi MIGHT show a future chapter that proves your personal speculations to be true and our listing of current manga facts to be false? Nice.
Facts are what they are, until proven otherwise and reading them 3 times or 300 times won't change that.
some techniques work on some people and don't on other like with the illusionary techniques they work on normal people but not in jinchūriki (who have befriended their bijū) so just as you said it’s extremely situational and can basically only be used on misguided and arrogant people like Kabuto... But i will not accept that what you said that its useless
Izanami is the type of Jutsu that would work on almost everyone with very few exceptions.Don't get me wrong, Alot of people will end up getting out of it faster than others....but as Itachi said , Noone is perfect.. people have personal demons of some nature that they are haunted by. Most people put on a positive facade to seem like they have themselves together when they really don't. Izanami exploits that denial.
Basically if you are wrong, Izanami works. Considering it's human nature to be fallible, that means everybody is potentially susceptible to it.
And you are right, ITACHI is right... It isn't a practical jutsu to be used in battle, as for the reasons he stated.. but it IS a practical jutsu to be used in Itachi's hands.. simply because as kabuto pointed out, he has the ability to read the opponents and their emotions well...
"Accepting ones destiny" is a broad statement in all and for every person it would be different... I don't believe it's only for people who have lost their way... actually in a sense , sure.. but once again "losing your way" is another broad thing that can mean anything..
Kabuto was afraid to fail, and convinced himself he can't fail by getting more powerful no matter what(becoming others)
Uchihas were escaping their mistakes through izanagi because they weren't allowed to fail in war...
It was INVENTED to save uchihas from their arrogance and stop them from running away from their mistakes and problems
When you acknowledge your mistakes and problems the jutsu dissapates right? good, now you would THINK most ninja already acknowledge their problems...
But deep down, ninjas like kakashi and tsunade blame themselves for the deaths of loved ones... Naruto previously was arrogant in his abilities so much that he thought he could solo the entire war himself without help...Sasuke is just a shitload of problems waiting to happen....
Izanagi doesn't only work on arrogance as far as what itachi has stated... It would work on any problem someone has...
Now why can it be used in a deadly manner?
Well we know it was a jutsu that was originally intended to punish then FIX people.....
But what happens when you use izanagi on someone without telling them what is needed of them? If Itachi wasn't truly out to help kabuto as he said...and he wasn't continuously telling kabuto in the genjutsu "when are you going to stop trying to become orochimaru"
If he wasn't purposefully making kabuto question his actions as we see in the final pages... How long would kabuto be in it for? He wouldn't know what to do... He would have no idea that he would have to truly accept his mistakes and his problem to get out.... He'd be in the genjutsu forever...
Yes the jutsu is supposed to help people in a way.. but consider not helping them....Putting them in the genjutsu without telling them what they need to fix...How could they possibly know? All they know is that they are in a genjutsu forever.....
"When you ackowledge your results, and stop trying to run away.. the Jutsu disperses.." What is the results he speaks of? as i said mistakes and problems... When kabuto acknowledges that he can fail, when he acknowledges that he isn't all powerful... and when he acknowledges that he can't become someone else... he'll be free
No it's not imo, The uchihas knew who they were... You use the term good or bad but honestly what does it mean to be good or bad in the ninja world? they lie, kill and steal for money... all of them do it.... Uchiha's back then and senju, were hired to fight in wars.. Mercenaries.. were they good or bad? , The jutsu isn't about good and bad, it isn't about arrogance per se , it's about human imperfections which everyone has... Itachi listed his problems and his mistakes to sasuke.. He even told sasuke he doesn't believe "Perfection" exists....
Right before jiraya died, he blamed himself for being unable to save his teacher, student etc, and one of his students was the wielder of rinnegan and possibly a bringer of death.....
Anything like that can be used in izanagi... No where did it state it was specifically for any one problem..It has obviously been tweaked for kabuto...
Just beause you see rasengan being used on only Konoha ninja, does that mean it can't be used on Suna ones?
First of all, the green is really hard on the eyes, when you write more than a few paragraphs, it would nice if you changed it to black. It's up to you though.
Second of all, you basically just elaborated on your theory which is nice, but is still a theory with no evidence to back it up. Nowhere did anybody make an exception for Itachi (Itachi read his opponent nicely when Kabuto faked going for sasuke…not), nowhere did it say that Izanami could be tweaked and nowhere did it say that the technique fixes mere mistakes or things merely bothering the victim. These are all things you assume, and they can’t be taken as canon as long as the manga says otherwise. Simple logic…
Itachi clearly says A that the jutsu is not for actual battle, the majority of times, and B the technique is used on people who are running away from who they really are. These are hard cold facts and can’t be disputed, for now.
The technique would not have been labeled a kinjutsu, plus it would have been abused, if it worked on “almost everybody”. If someone is not trying to lie to themselves and their actions/consequences behind them, they are basically immune to said jutsu. Everybody has faults and regrets however most people are fundamentally sound and acknowledge who they are-regardless of whether or not they are proud of themselves or their previous choices.
This is why Izanami is only effective on specific type of victims, for example Kabuto. Kabuto convinced himself that he could be Orochimaro, another human being instead of relying on himself and his own resolve (this is what Itachi referred to as results). On a completely different note, this might bring Oro back.
Itachi was confident he could stop edo tensei. He already knew/guessed that Kabuto was confused about his own identity. How? Kabuto was in akatsuki as well, he worked under Orochimaro who Itachi knew about in great details, even about the mighty hydra form. Itachi knew about SM, and he could relate to Kabuto from the beginning, which tells us that he had plenty of Intel on him. You add immortality and a backup, and you are covered from all angles i.e. even if someone is susceptible to Izanami, that person is likely safe because the caster would have to know about his deepest secret.
Good and bad are defined within the shinobi world just fine, though, there’re grey areas.
Everybody agrees that Edo Tensei and Sasori’s puppets are morally unethical, while taking care of your own, and treating everybody with dignity and respect, is considered good.
Without these lines Naruto, the character, would not have a purpose and changing the ninja system would mean absolutely nothing. However, I meant that those two things are totally irrelevant when it comes to Izanami, unless of course the victim is someone good/evil who tries hard to convince them self that they are good/evil.
So, basically you think that what we're saying is nonsense because kishi MIGHT show a future chapter that proves your personal speculations to be true and our listing of current manga facts to be false? Nice.
Facts are what they are, until proven otherwise and reading them 3 times or 300 times won't change that.
First of all, the green is really hard on the eyes, when you write more than a few paragraphs, it would nice if you changed it to black. It's up to you though.
Second of all, you basically just elaborated on your theory which is nice, but is still a theory with no evidence to back it up. Nowhere did anybody make an exception for Itachi (Itachi read his opponent nicely when Kabuto faked going for sasuke…not), nowhere did it say that Izanami could be tweaked and nowhere did it say that the technique fixes mere mistakes or things merely bothering the victim. These are all things you assume, and they can’t be taken as canon as long as the manga says otherwise. Simple logic…
Itachi clearly says A that the jutsu is not for actual battle, the majority of times, and B the technique is used on people who are running away from who they really are. These are hard cold facts and can’t be disputed, for now.
The technique would not have been labeled a kinjutsu, plus it would have been abused, if it worked on “almost everybody”. If someone is not trying to lie to themselves and their actions/consequences behind them, they are basically immune to said jutsu. Everybody has faults and regrets however most people are fundamentally sound and acknowledge who they are-regardless of whether or not they are proud of themselves or their previous choices.
This is why Izanami is only effective on specific type of victims, for example Kabuto. Kabuto convinced himself that he could be Orochimaro, another human being instead of relying on himself and his own resolve (this is what Itachi referred to as results). On a completely different note, this might bring Oro back.
Itachi was confident he could stop edo tensei. He already knew/guessed that Kabuto was confused about his own identity. How? Kabuto was in akatsuki as well, he worked under Orochimaro who Itachi knew about in great details, even about the mighty hydra form. Itachi knew about SM, and he could relate to Kabuto from the beginning, which tells us that he had plenty of Intel on him. You add immortality and a backup, and you are covered from all angles i.e. even if someone is susceptible to Izanami, that person is likely safe because the caster would have to know about his deepest secret.
Good and bad are defined within the shinobi world just fine, though, there’re grey areas.
Everybody agrees that Edo Tensei and Sasori’s puppets are morally unethical, while taking care of your own, and treating everybody with dignity and respect, is considered good.
Without these lines Naruto, the character, would not have a purpose and changing the ninja system would mean absolutely nothing. However, I meant that those two things are totally irrelevant when it comes to Izanami, unless of course the victim is someone good/evil who tries hard to convince them self that they are good/evil.
Kabuto was trying to become others and gain power by stealing them
Uchiha's were escaping their mistakes with jutsu (izanami)
Two entirely different situations... no matter what you say.. which shows izanami can be tweaked from the original version, in which it was used on uchihas to accept their mistakes and stop using izanagi
Kabuto was trying to become others and gain power by stealing them
Uchiha's were escaping their mistakes with jutsu (izanami)
Two entirely different situations... no matter what you say.. which shows izanami can be tweaked from the original version, in which it was used on uchihas to accept their mistakes and stop using izanagi
I never claimed the loop would be the same, It's an inescapable prison made to counter everything you do inside the loop until you realizes your wrongdoings. Izanagi users likely needed to be actually hit to escape it, but none of this changes the criteria Itachi set for the jutsu.
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