[Discussion] Is Luffy way stronger than Zoro?

[Punk Hazard]

Only if said character sticks to their swordplay alone though..

Mihawk's title doesn't mean anything at all against any other form of fighting other than with a sword.

It's like you didn't even read my post

What's the difference between...

"Strongest Man In The World"

"Strongest Creature Alive"

Which one gives sense of strength more than the other?

Strongest Creature, obviously.

 

[Big Mom]

It's like you didn't even read my post


Strongest Creature, obviously.

By strongest creature I always referred to as he's the strongest zoan

 

[Skull Knight]

You have to claim substantial territory, gain substantial military might, AND gain significant power of your own to become an Emperor. You have to be ALL three at once, not just any one at some point in time. Not to mention that ALL of these things were mentioned when Luffy was informally called the Fifth Emperor, not just one. NONE of them were the "main" one, it was all of those things together.

ok let's analyse
1) Luffy only claimed 1island(even Shichibukais has 1island)
2)At Dressrosa everyone saw the Carnage Luffy's commanders did n to top that a giant was carrying him. It's utter foolishness to say that Marines didn't even gave a thought that they are sought of allies now.
3) yes the major reason he was said that 5th Commander is because of Morgan's news which said he defeated 2of BM's commander n fought n kinda defeated BM in her turf.
Lots of guys have shown to have power n influence like Buggy but they are not consider as Yonko(to explain my point)

The Marines were going for overkill. The main goal was to kill Ace, fighting Whitebeard was just something they had to do as a result of that, not their objective. So they got as much of their military might as possible for the war, and this was reflected in the fact that they won an overwhelming victory as Vandereich said.

As I said one Yonko is enough to fight another.
5Admirals are more than enough to stop WBs commander
N to top that they called all Shichibukais, VC all other captains n rear admirals.
Even with them Ace managed to escape n the only reason they were able to kill him was because he was pissed on Akainu.
There plan to execute Ace was almost doomed the moment his handcuffs were gone.
And WB said that he will stop Marines while others escape MF. So overwhelming Victory pfff only like they got lucky that BB killed WB n Ace did a stupid mistake.

Shanks has never bested Mihawk either. Also, are you slow? Being a great pirate doesn't mean "Oh, you're a fantastic person," it means great as in immense in scale. Everything that defines a pirate(crew, power, influence), Big Mom has it in immense amounts.

Great also mean a lot of things from prodigious to extra ordinary which all the Yonkos are.
Even Mihawk is an extraordinary pirate who has his own island n ghost girl now. Still no Yonko title.
Another thing is when we make all these lists where we put a guy above another is when he defeated him or at least showed hype which makes him above another. Mihawk's only hype is WSS whereas Shanks hype is Yonko, clashed with WSS, WSM, WSC, Stopped a war, One who inherit Roger's hat.
Even in hype department Shanks got more hype than Mihawk

Except Mihawk's title is reinforced by Oda himself and the fact that it ties into Zoro's dream. To say Mihawk's title means nothing is to say that Zoro's character means nothing, and we both know that's not true.

Thing is Zoro wants to become best Swordsman i.e why he wants to fight with Mihawk. Mihawk is definitely strong no doubt about that but he hasn't shown anything that puts him above any Yonko.
The whole title logic means he is above him makes no sense as people with titles have been defeated multiple times in this series.

Ice created by an Admiral is more than likely gonna be stronger than just ordinary ice. And even if it's not, it's enough ice to measure up to a mountain, so cutting it is still an amazing power feat that's beyond anything Big Mom has shown.

Lol lava is lava. Akainu don't add secret ingredients in lava. Similarly ice is ice. Aokiji didn't add anything that makes it extraordinary.
Cutting mountain is a feat definitely but thing is that type of feat has already been replicated by Shanks n even Chinjao use to cut ice continent or whatever it was.

 

[HowDidIGetPrem]

What's the difference between...

"Strongest Man In The World"

"Strongest Creature Alive"

Which one gives sense of strength more than the other?

In context, probably the one that had to be taken out of the scenario for the other to rise.

Strongest Creature, obviously.

Wrong.

 

[Uverdore9]

Wrong. He's called strongest and most powerful. Like, explicitly the opposite of this.

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If you're talking about the title of being one of the Yonko, it has been shown that the power in that title includes not just the Emperor's individual skill, but their crews and influence as well. Blackbeard, even after taking Whitebeard's power and showing substantial ability by injuring Sengoku during Marineford only got the title of Emperor once he claimed territories and built up his crew. Same with Luffy being referred to as the "Fifth Emperor."

The translation "Four strongest pirates" for the Yonko was a mistranslation; the actual phrase used in the Japanese manga was "four greatest pirate captains."



This has never been displayed. Also, Mihawk's title doesn't mean he's the most skilled at swordplay. It means if someone is a swordsman, he's more powerful. So even if Shanks has better individual stats like better Conqueror's or Armament Haki, he's still overall less powerful than Mihawk so long as he's a swordsman.



It never has.


Except for when he made sword slashes capable of cutting through ice made by Aokiji(a Yonko level character), matching the size of the tsunamis created by another Emperor(Whitebeard), which were way bigger than the moves created by another Emperor(Big Mom).


See above.

Shanks matched Whitebeard's sky splitting strike yet you think Mihawk is a greater swordsmen by anything other than skill?

Shanks is portrayed tiers above Mihawk you cant even argue otherwise.

 

[ArabianLuffy]

Wrong.

Why wrong? The word "creature" doesn't exclude any life form. "Man" which is a "human" is one of many "creatures".

We could say that a hawk is one of most dangerous birds.
Elephant is one of the most strongest animals.

The word creature puts all life forms on one ladder. But when we say man, we list only humans. If Oda gonna stick to his claim that Kaidou is the strongest creature alive, where does this put Zunisha? Second strongest creature alive?

 

[HowDidIGetPrem]

Why wrong? The word "creature" doesn't exclude any life form. "Man" which is a "human" is one of many "creatures".

We could say that a hawk is one of most dangerous birds.
Elephant is one of the most strongest animals.

The word creature puts all life forms on one ladder. But when we say man, we list only humans. If Oda gonna stick to his claim that Kaidou is the strongest creature alive, where does this put Zunisha? Second strongest creature alive?

Wrong in context.

 

[Punk Hazard]

ok let's analyse
1) Luffy only claimed 1island(even Shichibukais has 1island)
2)At Dressrosa everyone saw the Carnage Luffy's commanders did n to top that a giant was carrying him. It's utter foolishness to say that Marines didn't even gave a thought that they are sought of allies now.
3) yes the major reason he was said that 5th Commander is because of Morgan's news which said he defeated 2of BM's commander n fought n kinda defeated BM in her turf.
Lots of guys have shown to have power n influence like Buggy but they are not consider as Yonko(to explain my point)

It's like you have the same reading problem that LBeezy had just up above. Buggy isn't considered an Emperor because, as far as we know, he has no territory, and has never displayed the power of the Emperors. Not only does the World Government not consider Luffy an Emperor(that's what Morgans decided to call him, not the WG or Marine HQ), but Morgans only called him that because he thinks Luffy beat Big Mom in a fight along with two of her commanders. So, in the eyes of Morgans, Luffy has demonstrated Emperor level strength, Emperor level militia, and has claimed significant territory. ALL of things are why Luffy was called an Emperor in Morgans' paper.

As I said one Yonko is enough to fight another.
5Admirals are more than enough to stop WBs commander
N to top that they called all Shichibukais, VC all other captains n rear admirals.
Even with them Ace managed to escape n the only reason they were able to kill him was because he was pissed on Akainu.
There plan to execute Ace was almost doomed the moment his handcuffs were gone.
And WB said that he will stop Marines while others escape MF. So overwhelming Victory pfff only like they got lucky that BB killed WB n Ace did a stupid mistake.

This is absolutely incorrect. At the end of the war, the only people who received any wounds on the Marine side by the WB side were Akainu and Kuzan. Akainu wasn't even severely injured and recovered swiftly and continued as though nothing happened, and Kuzan just had a bloody lip. Meanwhile, the only other notable injuries were Garp allowing himself to be injured and Sengoku being injured by Blackbeard.

Meanwhile, the WB pirates lost their captain, Ace, Marco was severely injured, Jozu lost an arm, and Oars was knocked out, lost a leg, and nearly killed. The WG went for overkill, and they got overkill.

Great also mean a lot of things from prodigious to extra ordinary which all the Yonkos are.

Yeah, that's what I said, Rain Man.

Even Mihawk is an extraordinary pirate who has his own island n ghost girl now. Still no Yonko title.

Because Mihawk doesn't have a militia or crew and his territory is an island with no people on it and he has no interest in ordinary piracy and chooses to be allied with the WG.

Another thing is when we make all these lists where we put a guy above another is when he defeated him or at least showed hype which makes him above another. Mihawk's only hype is WSS whereas Shanks hype is Yonko, clashed with WSS, WSM, WSC, Stopped a war, One who inherit Roger's hat.
Even in hype department Shanks got more hype than Mihawk

Feats>Hype. Mihawk has feats that put him on the level of the Yonko and the feat of achieving and maintaining the title of WSS puts him above Shanks. Even if Shanks has been hyped more, it means nothing when feats puts Mihawk on his level and beyond him individually. It just means whatever Shanks is hyped to be, Mihawk is better by some degree or another.

Thing is Zoro wants to become best Swordsman i.e why he wants to fight with Mihawk. Mihawk is definitely strong no doubt about that but he hasn't shown anything that puts him above any Yonko.

This is a horrible attempt at moving the goalposts. You said that Mihawk's title means nothing. I pointed out that Mihawk's title has relevance to the plot and story on par with Luffy's dream, and you move the goalposts to say that "he's strong" and never actually acknowledge my argument that Mihawk's title can't mean nothing as it is Zoro's dream.

The whole title logic means he is above him makes no sense as people with titles have been defeated multiple times in this series.

Except we've never seen a situation where someone was defeated in a way that betrayed a title like "WSS." The closest is Whitebeard and Kaido where

1. Whitebeard was heavily implied to no longer be the World's Strongest Man, and his title only holds up in a 1 vs 1 scenario where he lost in a war.

2. Kaido is the same deal, his title is a 1 vs 1 scenario and it was implied he lost vs groups of people, and we don't know even know if he had his title when he was the WSC.

Lol lava is lava. Akainu don't add secret ingredients in lava. Similarly ice is ice. Aokiji didn't add anything that makes it extraordinary.
Cutting mountain is a feat definitely but thing is that type of feat has already been replicated by Shanks

Uhh did I read this right? "Mihawk isn't Emperor level because his feats match up with that of an Emperor."

Wrong in context.

The context was "every living thing in the air, sea, and land." So yeah, it means every living thing, including people.

 

[HowDidIGetPrem]

Spoiler

It's like you have the same reading problem that LBeezy had just up above. Buggy isn't considered an Emperor because, as far as we know, he has no territory, and has never displayed the power of the Emperors. Not only does the World Government not consider Luffy an Emperor(that's what Morgans decided to call him, not the WG or Marine HQ), but Morgans only called him that because he thinks Luffy beat Big Mom in a fight along with two of her commanders. So, in the eyes of Morgans, Luffy has demonstrated Emperor level strength, Emperor level militia, and has claimed significant territory. ALL of things are why Luffy was called an Emperor in Morgans' paper.




This is absolutely incorrect. At the end of the war, the only people who received any wounds on the Marine side by the WB side were Akainu and Kuzan. Akainu wasn't even severely injured and recovered swiftly and continued as though nothing happened, and Kuzan just had a bloody lip. Meanwhile, the only other notable injuries were Garp allowing himself to be injured and Sengoku being injured by Blackbeard.

Meanwhile, the WB pirates lost their captain, Ace, Marco was severely injured, Jozu lost an arm, and Oars was knocked out, lost a leg, and nearly killed. The WG went for overkill, and they got overkill.

Yeah, that's what I said, Rain Man.


Because Mihawk doesn't have a militia or crew and his territory is an island with no people on it and he has no interest in ordinary piracy and chooses to be allied with the WG.



Feats>Hype. Mihawk has feats that put him on the level of the Yonko and the feat of achieving and maintaining the title of WSS puts him above Shanks. Even if Shanks has been hyped more, it means nothing when feats puts Mihawk on his level and beyond him individually. It just means whatever Shanks is hyped to be, Mihawk is better by some degree or another.

This is a horrible attempt at moving the goalposts. You said that Mihawk's title means nothing. I pointed out that Mihawk's title has relevance to the plot and story on par with Luffy's dream, and you move the goalposts to say that "he's strong" and never actually acknowledge my argument that Mihawk's title can't mean nothing as it is Zoro's dream.



Except we've never seen a situation where someone was defeated in a way that betrayed a title like "WSS." The closest is Whitebeard and Kaido where

1. Whitebeard was heavily implied to no longer be the World's Strongest Man, and his title only holds up in a 1 vs 1 scenario where he lost in a war.

2. Kaido is the same deal, his title is a 1 vs 1 scenario and it was implied he lost vs groups of people, and we don't know even know if he had his title when he was the WSC.



Uhh did I read this right? "Mihawk isn't Emperor level because his feats match up with that of an Emperor."

The context was "every living thing in the air, sea, and land." So yeah, it means every living thing, including people.

Let's say there's this rat. This rat is swole af man, like just straight up swole and 5 feet tall. We call this rat "The World's Strongest Rat." This Rat also had beef with this human who he's known to have scarred. Then, not that this is confirmed either way, only when this rat dies, does the human get labeled "World's strongest creature." Why is that?
Because that Rat was previously.

 

[ArabianLuffy]

Let's say there's this rat. This rat is swole af man, like just straight up swole and 5 feet tall. We call this rat "The World's Strongest Rat." This Rat also had beef with this human who he's known to have scarred. Then, not that this is confirmed either way, only when this rat dies, does the human get labeled "World's strongest creature." Why is that?
Because that Rat was previously.

I guess I could get what you're saying. However, Kaidou does have scars from Whitebeard. Probably their fight when Whitebeard was in his prime and the old Kaidou isn't like the current Kaidou. If we could compare the current Kaidou with prime Whitebeard, I believe either they're equal or Kaidou would be a bet stronger than prime Whitebeard.

If this is the case, and if the current Shanks is as strong as the current Kaidou, Shanks would put zero effort against Big Mom. He would just stop her and nothing more. Unlike Jinbe who pushed everything he got to just stall her.

so the equation Jinbe > Shanks is wrong.

 

[HowDidIGetPrem]

I guess I could get what you're saying. However, Kaidou does have scars from Whitebeard. Probably their fight when Whitebeard was in his prime and the old Kaidou isn't like the current Kaidou. If we could compare the current Kaidou with prime Whitebeard, I believe either they're equal or Kaidou would be a bet stronger than prime Whitebeard.

If this is the case, and if the current Shanks is as strong as the current Kaidou, Shanks would put zero effort against Big Mom. He would just stop her and nothing more. Unlike Jinbe who pushed everything he got to just stall her.

so the equation Jinbe > Shanks is wrong.

How do you think Big Mom's Cognac compares to Kaido's simple swing?

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[ArabianLuffy]

How do you think Big Mom's Cognac compares to Kaido's simple swing?

Spoiler

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Club and Sword.

Fodders and Jinbe

you're just confusing me

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[Punk Hazard]

Let's say there's this rat. This rat is swole af man, like just straight up swole and 5 feet tall. We call this rat "The World's Strongest Rat." This Rat also had beef with this human who he's known to have scarred. Then, not that this is confirmed either way, only when this rat dies, does the human get labeled "World's strongest creature." Why is that?
Because that Rat was previously.

I never said he was stronger than Prime Whitebeard...

 

[HowDidIGetPrem]

I never said he was stronger than Prime Whitebeard...

I know you didn't. I'm saying that Kaido isn't worthy of the same title WB held though, so he's just king of some filthy animals. I think it's clear what the people think is better and it's "World's Strongest Man" due to who held it.

 

[Skull Knight]

It's like you have the same reading problem that LBeezy had just up above. Buggy isn't considered an Emperor because, as far as we know, he has no territory, and has never displayed the power of the Emperors. Not only does the World Government not consider Luffy an Emperor(that's what Morgans decided to call him, not the WG or Marine HQ), but Morgans only called him that because he thinks Luffy beat Big Mom in a fight along with two of her commanders. So, in the eyes of Morgans, Luffy has demonstrated Emperor level strength, Emperor level militia, and has claimed significant territory. ALL of things are why Luffy was called an Emperor in Morgans' paper.

Lol Buggys has territory. Every Shichibukais has territory n Morgan telling the report n calling him Emperor is based on the fact what he saw n heard in Cake island i.e Luffy's beating 2commanders n escaped from a Yonko i.e why he is supposedly said 5th Emperor.
He doesn't know about FI.
And if somebody defeats Yonkos right hand then he is obviously a serious threat to WG.

This is absolutely incorrect. At the end of the war, the only people who received any wounds on the Marine side by the WB side were Akainu and Kuzan. Akainu wasn't even severely injured and recovered swiftly and continued as though nothing happened, and Kuzan just had a bloody lip. Meanwhile, the only other notable injuries were Garp allowing himself to be injured and Sengoku being injured by Blackbeard.

Marines suffered a lot:
3/5 Admirals were injured, VC were badly injured, Moria was also not in his best shape that's y when a 2nd fresh Yonko showed up they had to stop the war.

Meanwhile, the WB pirates lost their captain, Ace, Marco was severely injured, Jozu lost an arm, and Oars was knocked out, lost a leg, and nearly killed. The WG went for overkill, and they got overkill.

Marines mission was to execute Ace which almost got screwed the moment his handcuffs were removed.
Casualties happened in both sides that's y Coby tried to stop Akainu.
Both sides suffered a lot. It wasn't a overwhelming Victory as WB pirates had a huge opportunity to escape with Ace if he didn't went back.

Because Mihawk doesn't have a militia or crew and his territory is an island with no people on it and he has no interest in ordinary piracy and chooses to be allied with the WG.

We haven't even seen what type of islands Shanks got since last time he was chilling in an island basically had no people other than his crew n Mihawk.
We also saw guys becoming allies with Yonkos like BB after he got his title so if WG thought he was Yonko lvl worthy then they had given him a Emperor title. Heck somebody like Morgan got so much impress from Luffy that he gave him a title but not Mihawk who supposedly shook Grand line fighting Shanks.

Feats>Hype. Mihawk has feats that put him on the level of the Yonko and the feat of achieving and maintaining the title of WSS puts him above Shanks. Even if Shanks has been hyped more, it means nothing when feats puts Mihawk on his level and beyond him individually. It just means whatever Shanks is hyped to be, Mihawk is better by some degree or another.

Mihawk's feat was only cutting the ice mountain which is pretty much similar to Shanks making heavens split.

This is a horrible attempt at moving the goalposts. You said that Mihawk's title means nothing. I pointed out that Mihawk's title has relevance to the plot and story on par with Luffy's dream, and you move the goalposts to say that "he's strong" and never actually acknowledge my argument that Mihawk's title can't mean nothing as it is Zoro's dream.

It's not that Mihawk's WSS has no meaning or something like that. We know all these titles are based on rumours n fodders creations like God, World Strongest Slash, king Punch etc.
Even the simple fact that title holders lost multiple times strengthen the case that these titles doesn't put someone above other just because of the title he holds.

Except we've never seen a situation where someone was defeated in a way that betrayed a title like "WSS." The closest is Whitebeard and Kaido where

1. Whitebeard was heavily implied to no longer be the World's Strongest Man, and his title only holds up in a 1 vs 1 scenario where he lost in a war.

2. Kaido is the same deal, his title is a 1 vs 1 scenario and it was implied he lost vs groups of people, and we don't know even know if he had his title when he was the WSC.

1)WB entered MF with his title. In mid of a war he decides to relinquish his title doesn't mean he lost half his strength or something like that. He still had his strength i.e why he was able to.stop a ship by one hand n basically destroying MF at his own will. He even said he will stop Marines while others can escape.
2)Lol Kaido wanted to reach MF but he didn't. It's a sort of defeat
Now some more scenario where titles didn't help much
a) God Enel- needless to say
b) World Strongest Slash- not able to cut Diamond
c) God Thread- again not good enough to stop Luffy

Uhh did I read this right? "Mihawk isn't Emperor level because his feats match up with that of an Emperor.".

what I was saying is whatever Mihawk showed has been already demonstrated by Shanks. So it clears one thing i.e he didn't lost his touch even after loosing one hand n even though Mihawk has never bested Shanks n vice versa it's safe to assume Mihawk isn't above Shanks as people got titles without even beating Emperor's like Luffy.

 

[MickNerks]

If current Luffy = 100
Then Zoro = 85 (Has no feats comparable to Luffy)

Shanks King's Haki split the sky in 2 and started destroying a yonko's ship by merely walking. He clashed with Whitebeard, Kaido, and Akainu and took no damage from any of them. Obviously Shanks is superior to Mihawk. Its amazing how you guys hype a character who admitted he wasnt sure how his strength could compare to a Yonko, yet downplay a Yonko (shanks) who when arrived to the War shut it down just by showing up.

 

[HowDidIGetPrem]

If current Luffy = 100
Then Zoro = 85 (Has no feats comparable to Luffy)

Shanks King's Haki split the sky in 2 and started destroying a yonko's ship by merely walking. He clashed with Whitebeard, Kaido, and Akainu and took no damage from any of them. Obviously Shanks is superior to Mihawk. Its amazing how you guys hype a character who admitted he wasnt sure how his strength could compare to a Yonko, yet downplay a Yonko (shanks) who when arrived to the War shut it down just by showing up.

Why is tearing at a ship with his haki considered impressive?

 

[Big Mom]

Why is tearing at a ship with his haki considered impressive?

Cause no one else has been able to do something like that with kings haki

 

[Uzumaki Macho]

Cause no one else has been able to do something like that with kings haki

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[HowDidIGetPrem]

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