How To Detect The Zetsus

[Cyborg]

You've got a sensible idea, but my only question about it is, unless the white zetsus have a specific smell, kiba & the dogs would need to know the person's scent to know if it was real or cloned.

Normally, every person has a unique scent and dog's are able to identify this fact. When kiba and the other inuzuka'a fought the zetsus they and their dog's would have noted the smell. It might be possible to use this to their advantage.

While naruto outwitted him in their first ever fight, Kiba's nose did manage to help him detect who the real naruto was even though he was transformed:

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So , yes, the inuzuka's can smell the scent of someone who has transformed.

 

[leafeater]

Normally, every person has a unique scent and dog's are able to identify this fact. When kiba and the other inuzuka'a fought the zetsus they and their dog's would have noted the smell. It might be possible to use this to their advantage.

While naruto outwitted him in their first ever fight, Kiba's nose did manage to help him detect who the real naruto was even though he was transformed:

You must be registered for see links

So , yes, the inuzuka's can smell the scent of someone who has transformed.

That clone technique is no where near the level of white Zetsu's. A Byakuugan or probably any other sensor ninja should be able to discriminate just as easily for a regular transformation jutsu like Naruto used in the panel cited.

Isthatnecessary

I didn't think of that! You have a point there. But that means Tsunade should be at work- Can the slug do it totally on it's own without Tsunade?

Maybe, the little slugs are just divisions of the larger regular sized Katsuyu. I'd expect them to have self-foreign recognition. It's like injecting a foreign antibody, the regular ones will swarm and destroy it. I don't know if it'll work, and I don't know much about Kishimoto's educational background. Even if it's a clever theory, if he doesn't know about it, he won't use it. I think this week will be like last weeks regarding Neji. There were about 10 theories why someone appearing to be Neji would kill medical ninja...nonetheless, I'm pleased with his writing in general.

Peace.

 

[Cyborg]

That clone technique is no where near the level of white Zetsu's. A Byakuugan or probably any other sensor ninja should be able to discriminate just as easily for a regular transformation jutsu like Naruto used in the panel cited.

Isthatnecessary


Maybe, the little slugs are just divisions of the larger regular sized Katsuyu. I'd expect them to have self-foreign recognition. It's like injecting a foreign antibody, the regular ones will swarm and destroy it. I don't know if it'll work, and I don't know much about Kishimoto's educational background. Even if it's a clever theory, if he doesn't know about it, he won't use it. I think this week will be like last weeks regarding Neji. There were about 10 theories why someone appearing to be Neji would kill medical ninja...nonetheless, I'm pleased with his writing in general.

Peace.

Level? Define level. Besides, thats not the point. Transformation's transformation, the only difference between this(zetsu's) and any other transformation is the chakra copying. Show me any proof that says otherwise.
And no. Byakugan can only detect chakra flow through a person, again provide proof via link from the manga which shows that it can detect a transformed person's true identity. Because from what i remember, there is none.

 

[leafeater]

Level? Define level. Besides, thats not the point. Transformation's transformation, the only difference between this(zetsu's) and any other transformation is the chakra copying. Show me any proof that says otherwise.
And no. Byakugan can only detect chakra flow through a person, again provide proof via link from the manga which shows that it can detect a transformed person's true identity. Because from what i remember, there is none.

I presume that the chakra flow through a ninja dog like Akamaru is quite distinct than a person such as Naruto, and that a sensor ninja would have no problem with this. By level, I doubt some genin level transformation could've gotten past the Raikage, and sensor ninja present, etc. The white Zetsu did this, not to mention that Shikaku is racking his brains over this problem because the Zetsu clones are doing such an excellent job.

You're comparing a very low level transformation to a very high level one, that no one knows the limits of. Proving scent works on a lesser transformation jutsu does not prove it'll work on a far superior technique. It's possible that using scent will work, that much can't be ruled in or out until the manga comes out.

However, my point stands that you can't prove it by demonstrating it's efficacy of discriminating the Zetsu's based on its efficacy choosing between a ninja dog and a human, each using a genin level technique. Do you really think that Neji couldn't tell them (ninja dog vs. human) apart or Karin, for example? I don't know if dogs even have the same chakra system as people. I doubt, if it was this easy, such that the Akamaru's just ride around finding Zetsu's, that Shikaku would be demonstrating some self-doubt and panic and already come up with this solution. Maybe that'll be the first panel. Personally, I don't care if you're right or wrong, and Kishi doesn't tend to use science/theory much so he might use this method as he's more "pop" science. I don't know.

As well, using scent is horribly inefficient from a computational perspective due to the serial and not parallel processing computation. Maybe I'm wrong, and we'll see, on the last point. Regardless, extrapolating from the human vs. ninja dog comparison is invalid in my eyes.

Peace

 

[Avani]

Level? Define level. Besides, thats not the point. Transformation's transformation, the only difference between this(zetsu's) and any other transformation is the chakra copying. Show me any proof that says otherwise.

If defining level is pointless then why ask for it?

Secondly if a transformation is just a transformation, those sensor nins are wasting their time in the first place. According to your argument they are useless to start with. You are cancelling out your own statements..

And no. Byakugan can only detect chakra flow through a person, again provide proof via link from the manga which shows that it can detect a transformed person's true identity. Because from what i remember, there is none.

Manga78, probably- chunin exam neji Vs hinata. find you own link, but you will need analyzing abilities along with it- Kakashi says that bayakugan has power of Insight ( neji kept spooking his opponents by telling them what they had in their heart)- Bayakugan won't identify the clone exactly but it can find out the ones with murderous intent.

But this thing is beside the point. The chance of bayakugan being used is thin for they are too many Zetsus and the area too wide. nobody is saying bayakugan is going to be used so why include that in this post along with the first part?

 

[Cyborg]

I presume that the chakra flow through a ninja dog like Akamaru is quite distinct than a person such as Naruto, and that a sensor ninja would have no problem with this. By level, I doubt some genin level transformation could've gotten past the Raikage, and sensor ninja present, etc. The white Zetsu did this, not to mention that Shikaku is racking his brains over this problem because the Zetsu clones are doing such an excellent job.

You're comparing a very low level transformation to a very high level one, that no one knows the limits of. Proving scent works on a lesser transformation jutsu does not prove it'll work on a far superior technique. It's possible that using scent will work, that much can't be ruled in or out until the manga comes out.

However, my point stands that you can't prove it by demonstrating it's efficacy of discriminating the Zetsu's based on its efficacy choosing between a ninja dog and a human, each using a genin level technique. Do you really think that Neji couldn't tell them (ninja dog vs. human) apart or Karin, for example? I don't know if dogs even have the same chakra system as people. I doubt, if it was this easy, such that the Akamaru's just ride around finding Zetsu's, that Shikaku would be demonstrating some self-doubt and panic and already come up with this solution. Maybe that'll be the first panel. Personally, I don't care if you're right or wrong, and Kishi doesn't tend to use science/theory much so he might use this method as he's more "pop" science. I don't know.

As well, using scent is horribly inefficient from a computational perspective due to the serial and not parallel processing computation. Maybe I'm wrong, and we'll see, on the last point. Regardless, extrapolating from the human vs. ninja dog comparison is invalid in my eyes.

Peace

Again, you have'nt provided me with ANY manga links to prove or disprove what your saying. This is'nt a science lesson. This is a naruto aime/comic, so we have to use the manga for links and proof's , cuz that's what we're talking about. But don't get me wrong, i appreciate what your saying nonetheless.
See, trouble is your absolutely right about kishi not strictly adhering to scientifically based logic , but as a consequence of this fact, 90 % of your reasoning is mere speculation(and mine too) UNLESS you use the manga, because that's the ruling authority of what is right and wrong, not what prudence, however sound, dictates to be so.

About the bolded^, it's the same technique, i.e transformation so i'm surprised you dismiss the comparison. Water is water, ie. H20, whether its in in a paper glass or spans an entire ocean across half the globe. Its properties remain the same. Your 'level' argument misses this point. Hope that made sense, and who knows? Kishi'll probably surprise us all with sth right out of the blue that none of us had seen coming.

 

[Cyborg]

If defining level is pointless then why ask for it?

Secondly if a transformation is just a transformation, those sensor nins are wasting their time in the first place. According to your argument they are useless to start with. You are cancelling out your own statements..



Manga78, probably- chunin exam neji Vs hinata. find you own link, but you will need analyzing abilities along with it- Kakashi says that bayakugan has power of Insight ( neji kept spooking his opponents by telling them what they had in their heart)- Bayakugan won't identify the clone exactly but it can find out the ones with murderous intent.

But this thing is beside the point. The chance of bayakugan being used is thin for they are too many Zetsus and the area too wide. nobody is saying bayakugan is going to be used so why include that in this post along with the first part?

Do you have difficulty with comprehension? How am i cancelling out my own statements? Explain.
My argument says they are useless? Lol, its what the bloody MANGA, has shown as they were unable to detect the white zetsu's. I just moved forward from that point, suggesting a way that they could actually detect the zetsu's, which they had failed to do so.

Don't know what the **** you are ranting on about the byakugan. My theory is that smell could help to detect the transformed zetsu's not byakugan. You would have known that had you bothered to read.

 

[leafeater]

Again, you have'nt provided me with ANY manga links to prove or disprove what your saying. This is'nt a science lesson. This is a naruto aime/comic, so we have to use the manga for links and proof's , cuz that's what we're talking about. But don't get me wrong, i appreciate what your saying nonetheless.
See, trouble is your absolutely right about kishi not strictly adhering to scientifically based logic , but as a consequence of this fact, 90 % of your reasoning is mere speculation(and mine too) UNLESS you use the manga, because that's the ruling authority of what is right and wrong, not what prudence, however sound, dictates to be so.

About the bolded^, it's the same technique, i.e transformation so i'm surprised you dismiss the comparison. Water is water, ie. H20, whether its in in a paper glass or spans an entire ocean across half the globe. Its properties remain the same. Your 'level' argument misses this point. Hope that made sense, and who knows? Kishi'll probably surprise us all with sth right out of the blue that none of us had seen coming.

First, absence of proof is not proof of absence. As I don't write the manga, I can't set up fights that allow me manga pages to cite. Please answer this. Do you honestly believe that a transformed human and ninja dog would look the same to a Byakuugan or some other sensor type? This is what sensor ninja do, they see past this type of deception. Kiba is a sensor ninja.

Second, the transformation technique is not the same. Kiba, a genin, saw through the above transformation, yet elite jounin sensor ninja are not detecting the white Zetsu. We know for a fact that the biggest problem that we're aware of is that the white Zetsu perfectly mimic chakra; thus unlike Naruto and a dog the sensory ninja can't tell them apart from the original.

Now, as you demand pages from the manga, please provide me with ones that state that the white Zetsu cannot mimic scent. Can you prove that or do you just believe it? If you just believe it, you're in no stronger position than I am. If you have proof in the manga that I missed (apologies), you have leverage. Here, if you don't have proof, you can use absence of proof is not proof of absence. Further, we don't know the full limitations of the white Zetsu clone technique as it's fairly new and only been used a few times.

Here I have not posted any sophisticated logic or science; rather, it's all very basic and straightforward. Basic logic is acceptable in the absence of manga pages as Kishimoto will not write about everything that ever happens or could happen. These are theories, as such they are based on assumptions, such as that the white Zetsu will have a distinct scent; thus, you theorize Shikaku will use Kiba's clan to root them out by their scent. If the assumption is wrong, the theory is invalid. If the assumption is not used in the manga, it's irrelevant. That's how theories work.

Peace.

Edit: Too bad this is going down on a weekend because people are missing some good action.

 

[ReLax -]

Wow relax guys.

I still believe they will use Naruto instead of slug or Kiba. I mean with Naruto it's a lot more easier since he can sense evil and hatred like he did with Kisame and they can keep him busy that way before he joins the battlefield

What you think cyborg?

 

[Avani]

Do you have difficulty with comprehension? How am i cancelling out my own statements? Explain.
My argument says they are useless? Lol, its what the bloody MANGA, has shown as they were unable to detect the white zetsu's. I just moved forward from that point, suggesting a way that they could actually detect the zetsu's, which they had failed to do so.

Don't know what the **** you are ranting on about the byakugan. My theory is that smell could help to detect the transformed zetsu's not byakugan. You would have known that had you bothered to read.

No dear you are the one ranting about bayakugan- I just explained how it worked when you were asking for the LINK! See your post quoted below:

Level? Define level. Besides, thats not the point. Transformation's transformation, the only difference between this(zetsu's) and any other transformation is the chakra copying. Show me any proof that says otherwise.
And no. Byakugan can only detect chakra flow through a person, again provide proof via link from the manga which shows that it can detect a transformed person's true identity. Because from what i remember, there is none.

And I explained the first part too. calling it a bloody manga doesn't make it more impressive.

 

[leafeater]

Wow relax guys.

I still believe they will use Naruto instead of slug or Kiba. I mean with Naruto it's a lot more easier since he can sense evil and hatred like he did with Kisame and they can keep him busy that way before he joins the battlefield

What you think cyborg?

Check out the later posts in this thread started by Draegod.

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Initially the debate was slugs or Naruto in Kyuubi mode. In the later posts, isthatnecessary and I propose a hybrid model to Draegod's original one. In the hybrid, the slugs are connected to Naruto in Kyuubi mode and he uses Katsuyu as a conduit to sense out the multiple camps and battlefields in a parrallel processing fashion for efficiency with a detection method the has been demonstrated to distinguish beings with identical chakras.

It's the best method, but it's a question of if it works, like any theory. I say it's the best because it's the only one that has proven computational detection power (Naruto in Kyuubi mode) and proven parrallel processing power (Katsuyu slugs, ex. This allowed Tsunade to perform mitotic regeneration on all injured personel simultaneously during the Nagato invasion). Obviously it's just a theory because we haven't seen Katsuyu do this operation before or bond as a conduit to anyone besides Tsunade. Check out the thread, it's pretty good.

Peace

 

[shadedcrow]

Not going to read through 4 pages of posts, but will say a time/space barrier. Or a barrier ninjutsu like the one that was around the leaf village before Negato, and his paths of pain attacked. Only other way I'd say is with vague statements that only shinobi from the aliance would know or could respond correctly to.. White Zetsu dosent get memories when he copys chakra so it seems.

 

[Avani]

Not going to read through 4 pages of posts, but will say a time/space barrier. Or a barrier ninjutsu like the one that was around the leaf village before Negato, and his paths of pain attacked. Only other way I'd say is with vague statements that only shinobi from the aliance would know or could respond correctly to.. White Zetsu dosent get memories when he copys chakra so it seems.

What about Zetsus who have already infltrated the camps? Wouldn't they be inside the barrier? besides Zetsu seems to be spying all the time without being detected..U_U

 

[Cyborg]

Wow relax guys.

I still believe they will use Naruto instead of slug or Kiba. I mean with Naruto it's a lot more easier since he can sense evil and hatred like he did with Kisame and they can keep him busy that way before he joins the battlefield

What you think cyborg?

Naruto can detect the zetsu's, no doubt about it. However, i would think he ought to be more preoccupied fighting Nagato, Itachi , Madara and eventually Sasuke so its a little too much if he also has to fight the zetsu's.

First, absence of proof is not proof of absence. As I don't write the manga, I can't set up fights that allow me manga pages to cite. Please answer this. Do you honestly believe that a transformed human and ninja dog would look the same to a Byakuugan or some other sensor type? This is what sensor ninja do, they see past this type of deception. Kiba is a sensor ninja.

Second, the transformation technique is not the same. Kiba, a genin, saw through the above transformation, yet elite jounin sensor ninja are not detecting the white Zetsu. We know for a fact that the biggest problem that we're aware of is that the white Zetsu perfectly mimic chakra; thus unlike Naruto and a dog the sensory ninja can't tell them apart from the original.

Now, as you demand pages from the manga, please provide me with ones that state that the white Zetsu cannot mimic scent. Can you prove that or do you just believe it? If you just believe it, you're in no stronger position than I am. If you have proof in the manga that I missed (apologies), you have leverage. Here, if you don't have proof, you can use absence of proof is not proof of absence. Further, we don't know the full limitations of the white Zetsu clone technique as it's fairly new and only been used a few times.

Here I have not posted any sophisticated logic or science; rather, it's all very basic and straightforward. Basic logic is acceptable in the absence of manga pages as Kishimoto will not write about everything that ever happens or could happen. These are theories, as such they are based on assumptions, such as that the white Zetsu will have a distinct scent; thus, you theorize Shikaku will use Kiba's clan to root them out by their scent. If the assumption is wrong, the theory is invalid. If the assumption is not used in the manga, it's irrelevant. That's how theories work.

Peace.

Edit: Too bad this is going down on a weekend because people are missing some good action.

OMG<, tooooo much to read^ lol. Sry, can't answer everything you said. As for the manga proof, its clearly said the zetsus use transformation,:

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I already linked the page which showed kiba detecting a transformed naruto via scent. The zetsu transformation is different from any other only because he can mimic the chakra of the person he transforms into, but that's about it.
Zetsu can drain chakra, so he uses that in collabaration with the transformation technique to pose as someone who's chakra he has absorbed, and his clone is able to mimic that chakra.....so when said clone transforms into a person whose chakra was absorbed,:
1. The zetsu clone looks the same because of the transformation technique.
2. It has the same chakra as the original person, as said person had their chakra absorbed.

No dear you are the one ranting about bayakugan- I just explained how it worked when you were asking for the LINK! See your post quoted below:




And I explained the first part too. calling it a bloody manga doesn't make it more impressive.

And i stand by what i say, that the byakugan cannot tell a transformation from a regular person:|

Show me manga proof that says it can, and i'll change my views.

 

[Avani]

Show me manga proof that says it can, and i'll change my views.

lol.. don't be lazy. Open the manga 78 and look for yourself and analyze.

We are arguing over a pointless thing at the moment..xd

 

[Cyborg]

lol.. don't be lazy. Open the manga 78 and look for yourself and analyze.

We are arguing over a pointless thing at the moment..xd

There is not a single page on chapter 78 which shows a byakugan detecting a transformation jutsu. Here, read it for yourself:

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That's only because you refuse to acknowledge or refute the statement' a byakugan cannot tell whether a person is using a transformation jutsu'.

 

[Tsunade Senju]

Slugs will be useful too.

If every slugs are attached on every ninja, they would be able to monitor every of their actions, therefore, Zetsus actions would be limited.

 

[Avani]

There is not a single page on chapter 78 which shows a byakugan detecting a transformation jutsu. Here, read it for yourself:

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That's only because you refuse to acknowledge or refute the statement' a byakugan cannot tell whether a person is using a transformation jutsu'.

You must be registered for see links

Read the first panel what neji is saying then kakashi's explaination. It's not about transforming jutsu- it's about seeing a person and reading his intent his inner thoughts- a zetsu's intent even when tyransformed is different than an alliance shinobies. A zetsu clone would be looking for some victims to kill and bayakugan can idetify that. That's all.

Deduce your own interpretation. If you agree- fine if you not- even that's fine. Since we all seem to agree that Bayakugan is not gouing to be used here so there is really no point arguing over it

 

[Cyborg]

You must be registered for see links

Read the first panel what neji is saying then kakashi's explaination. It's not about transforming jutsu- it's about seeing a person and reading his intent his inner thoughts- a zetsu's intent even when tyransformed is different than an alliance shinobies. A zetsu clone would be looking for some victims to kill and bayakugan can idetify that. That's all.

Deduce your own interpretation. If you agree- fine if you not- even that's fine. Since we all seem to agree that Bayakugan is not gouing to be used here so there is really no point arguing over it

It cannot read inner thoughts, if it could then why was'nt nejji able to detect the real naruto among the shadow clones? The byakugan was'nt able to identify him, and it won't be able to identify who is a real zetsu( unless kishi has brain damage, lol).
Kakashi meant it can see the intricate chakra network of a person when he said it has more insight....but the zetsu's have the same chakra as they are transformed into so the byakugan is therefore useless.

 

[Avani]

It cannot read inner thoughts, if it could then why was'nt nejji able to detect the real naruto among the shadow clones? The byakugan was'nt able to identify him, and it won't be able to identify who is a real zetsu( unless kishi has brain damage, lol).
Kakashi meant it can see the intricate chakra network of a person when he said it has more insight....but the zetsu's have the same chakra as they are transformed into so the byakugan is therefore useless.

Headdesk* ... Naruto shadow clones are basiclly Naruto himself and he devides his chakra evenly= so identifying real Naruto is difficult for almost everyone.