hiruzen is not the strongest hokage... proof

[Son Ryuto Uzumaki]

That flawless logic you posted was mere of forwarding what Hiruzen fans imply when they take Iruka's statement as absolute. And quite frankly you've just proved that you haven't grasped what i've said. Those posts are showing why Iruka's statement isn't absolute - it's showing why there is a problem with its validity. Hurr durr that's why I told you I was never explicitly arguing that Hashirama was the best thing since sliced bread, rather, that Hiruzen isn't the strongest Hokage by virtue of manga hype.

Yeah iruka is weak he doesn't know what true power is because he never exprienced it himself by now he probably think Ton Ton is stuff of Legend. You can't count on a weakling too tell you what true power is

 

[Disquiet]

That flawless logic you posted was mere of forwarding what Hiruzen fans imply when they take Iruka's statement as absolute. And quite frankly you've just proved that you haven't grasped what i've said. Those posts are showing why Iruka's statement isn't absolute - it's showing why there is a problem with its validity. Hurr durr that's why I told you I was never explicitly arguing that Hashirama was the best thing since sliced bread, rather, that Hiruzen isn't the strongest Hokage by virtue of manga hype.

However, it is still manga fact. Assumptions can be made, yes, but in the end it is all assumptions. Especially since the "minority" believed he had such power. And that "minority" could easily be apart of those who called Hiruzen the strongest. You know, they're from the same village and all...

 

[KingHashirama]

Omnipotent Ended the debate about Hashirama and Madara.. So switch back to Sarutobi and Hashirama... Wait no that was already ended by me and noddy and ffew other people.

 

[OnPoint]

However, it is still manga fact. Assumptions can be made, yes, but in the end it is all assumptions. Especially since the "minority" believed he had such power. And that "minority" could easily be apart of those who called Hiruzen the strongest. You know, they're from the same village and all...

Yeah, but one set of assumptions is backed by recent information, plot direction, Madara, Obito, Dan and a whole load of manga feats.

 

[Owarij]

Nah:

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"But thanks to those efforts, I obtained a perfect Mangekyou Sharingan" (EMS, "efforts" referring to sacrificing his friends for MS, and taking his brother's eyes for EMS).

"And with this power at my command, I often found myself pitted against the Senju. It was inevitable I would one day face its leader, Hashirama"

Anyways, Itachi also said that Madara was the strongest shinobi in the world:

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But we all know that's not true:

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Tobi also said that He didn't attack konoha as well as many other things..
Itachi says Madara became the leader when he got the ms..

You THINK when obito said he had a flawless mangekyou he's talking about ems

 

[Son Ryuto Uzumaki]

No proof at all but I still agree that hiruzen is not the strongest hokage

Fine compare Prime Hiruzen to Prime Madara.....3.2.1 YOU CAN NOT there are on total different levels of Power and chakra. Iruka generation can't quote true power because they only exprienced Hiruzen. iruka's gen knew and exprienced more of political war's not compared to Hashirama's gen all they knew was WAR and POWER so Iruka's quote means nothing because he didn't exprience Hashi's eraMuttclanofthe Sarutobi will never know their own power because their mixed with all the clans of the leaf. Thread Over

 

[MrSimple]

Omnipotent Ended the debate about Hashirama and Madara.. So switch back to Sarutobi and Hashirama... Wait no that was already ended by me and noddy and ffew other people.

Sadly, he didn't tell anything new or something as proof.

EMS Madara, Hashirama and his brother and Hiruzen are one big hype right now.
And we won't even see them fighting again or seeing their jutsu.
Even so Edo Madara and Zetsu showed as the power of Hashirama, but Huruzen fans will aways comes with the fight in part 1.

There's no winner here. Deal with it. Manga fights>assumptions. That's what we always had to deal with it.

 

[KingHashirama]

Hashirama fanboys at it again..just because Kishi has developed his jutsu vault and naruto is nearing dragonballs level doesn't mean hiruzen's hypes and feats are now null and void..in part 1 naruto, spitting fire or water from the mouth was considered badass..in shippuden,elemental attacks didn't mean much anymore...even guys like kakashi,yamato,and all akatsuki members have shown stuffd beyond any character in part1..does that mean that a guy like deidara will give oro with 2 edo summons the fight of his life?..if kishi retconned hiruzen vs orochimaru's fight in this shippuden era,I bet you guys not even naruto vs pain's fight will compare to it's awesomness..hashirama and his bro used about 4 jutsus,hiruzen countered it accordingly with 4 counters..do you guys think that was all hiruzen and his teachers had? NO! Kishi became more creative(even his drawings improved) in shipudden that's why it looks like the hiruzen in part 1 was weak..And again people saying hashirama was stronger because he could counter and restrain bijuus,are just narrow minded..controlling bijuus was an innate ability.its an ability that came naturally to him..just like madara has the ability to control a bijuu..and kisame is called the best bijuu hunter in akatsuki because of his unique skillset..does that mean kisame can beat pain(who struggled with a 6 tailed kyubi)? Or itachi?...NO!...this is simple common sense..

Only fanboys think the power scale moved up.. . Its the same.. Itachi was introduced with his epicness in Part 1. Which was already stronger then anything Hiruzen had showed.. So yea the people just got stronger.. there was no change in 'power scale'. And this thing about 'counters' "he is a counter to him".. is pure BS. If he is a counter to Madara.. then Sarutobi has no chance.

1-Manga > Anime always no if's and's or but's.
2-He mastered every jutsu in the leaf. KKG's, Hidden jutsu's ect do not apply. Therefore he had seals.
3-Databooks also contain other useful information like the 3rd databook came out prior to Susanoo's appearance yet spoke of it. Try again.

1. Anime has copyrights by Masashi Kishimoto. Your claim about Manga > Anime fails there
2. "every jutsu" is "Every jutsu".. So yea that statement was a fail in the manga. He had seals but he didn't use them on the edos and then fight Oro to kill him? ok.
3. It came out prior to Susano'o appearnance? wth are you talking about...

Hashirama's main power is mokuton, enma can easily break it, fire can burn it, lighting can destroy it. Don't compare PS to Mokuton, lol

1. Main power doesn't = all power.
2. Show a feat where Enma can take on endless amounts of mokuton
3. Mokuton can easily pawn bijjuus.... lmao. So don't compare mokuton to that scrawny enma.

Sadly, he didn't tell anything new or something as proof.

EMS Madara, Hashirama and his brother and Hiruzen are one big hype right now.
And we won't even see them fighting again or seeing their jutsu.
Even so Edo Madara and Zetsu showed as the power of Hashirama, but Huruzen fans will aways comes with the fight in part 1.

There's no winner here. Deal with it. Manga fights>assumptions. That's what we always had to deal with it.

Sadly, he didn't tell anything new or something as proof.

EMS Madara, Hashirama and his brother and Hiruzen are one big hype right now.
And we won't even see them fighting again or seeing their jutsu.
Even so Edo Madara and Zetsu showed as the power of Hashirama, but Huruzen fans will aways comes with the fight in part 1.

There's no winner here. Deal with it. Manga fights>assumptions. That's what we always had to deal with it.

Sadly, your misguided. Manga pages = proof. Tobirama and Hashirama are HAILED as the best shinobis the leaf has ever seen. So Hiruzen's part 1 hype already failed there.

Dan + Madara+ Kabuto again screw up Hiruzen's hype.

Winner will always be the one protrayed as the strongest shinobi of the modern time.

 

[Owarij]

Sadly, your misguided. Manga pages = proof. Tobirama and Hashirama are HAILED as the best shinobis the leaf has ever seen. So Hiruzen's part 1 hype already failed there.

Already told you what best means

You must be the only kid running around thinking tobirama was equal to his brother

 

[Disquiet]

Yeah, but one set of assumptions is backed by recent information, plot direction, Madara, Obito, Dan and a whole load of manga feats.

And yet still hasn't contradicted Hiruzen's title as strongest hokage. All it shows is that Hashirama was the strongest of his time. Hell, the readers can no longer even fathom Hiruzen's power, the more hype and feats Hashirama get, only makes Hiruzen look that much better until it's stated that Hashirama is the strongest of the two.

 

[OnPoint]

And yet still hasn't contradicted Hiruzen's title as strongest hokage. All it shows is that Hashirama was the strongest of his time. Hell, the readers can no longer even fathom Hiruzen's power, the more hype and feats Hashirama get, only makes Hiruzen look that much better until it's stated that Hashirama is the strongest of the two.

This is the whole point of what the posts have been arguing. Hiruzen was never legitimately labelled the strongest Hokage because the majority of people never took Hashirama's full strength into account. That's the point of Kabuto's statement. It compromises Iruka's words. It's just like saying Ronaldo is the best footballer in the world when you don't know anything about Messi. Even Tsunade lacked information regarding her grandfather. A fair, accurate and valid comparison by the masses could obviously not take place. Iruka's words cannot be absolute.

 

[Omnipotent]

Tobi also said that He didn't attack konoha as well as many other things..
Itachi says Madara became the leader when he got the ms..

You THINK when obito said he had a flawless mangekyou he's talking about ems

And Obito was infused with Madara's will. Yet where did Itachi get his information from? Obito.

Now what OTHER than EMS is a flawless mangekyou? The manga page before even stays he exhausted his brother as a resource to achieve this.

 

[KingHashirama]

Tobi also said that He didn't attack konoha as well as many other things..
Itachi says Madara became the leader when he got the ms..

You THINK when obito said he had a flawless mangekyou he's talking about ems

Already told you what best means

You must be the only kid running around thinking tobirama was equal to his brother

Sorry, best is best. Hiruzen is not one of the best.. And since those to are considered the Best.. it means minato and Hiruzen aren't on their levels. Simple as that. You and your word twisting is getting annoying now.

 

[Owarij]

And Obito was infused with Madara's will. Yet where did Itachi get his information from? Obito.

Now what OTHER than EMS is a flawless mangekyou? The manga page before even stays he exhausted his brother as a resource to achieve this.

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Dude, read this scan over..
It says that Madara and izuna both obtained Mangekyou, and with that power, they BOTH took control of the uchiha, But Madara became the LEADER..

according to your scans, It was when Madara became the leader , he was pitted against the senju clan and the senju leader many times...

Madara had ms when he became the leadder not ems


Why would you think it would be ems?

He was the FIRST person to unlock the plain mangekyou sharingan... ofc when he got ms he would become leader.. since everyone else had 3 tomoe..

Ems came AFTER


I already gave you the definition of best.. please scroll back a few pages..

 

[Unbiased]

Only fanboys think the power scale moved up.. . Its the same.. Itachi was introduced with his epicness in Part 1. Which was already stronger then anything Hiruzen had showed.. So yea the people just got stronger.. there was no change in 'power scale'. And this thing about 'counters' "he is a counter to him".. is pure BS. If he is a counter to Madara.. then Sarutobi has no chance.




1. Anime has copyrights by Masashi Kishimoto. Your claim about Manga > Anime fails there
2. "every jutsu" is "Every jutsu".. So yea that statement was a fail in the manga. He had seals but he didn't use them on the edos and then fight Oro to kill him? ok.
3. It came out prior to Susano'o appearnance? wth are you talking about...


1. Main power doesn't = all power.
2. Show a feat where Enma can take on endless amounts of mokuton
3. Mokuton can easily pawn bijjuus.... lmao. So don't compare mokuton to that scrawny enma.


Sadly, your misguided. Manga pages = proof. Tobirama and Hashirama are HAILED as the best shinobis the leaf has ever seen. So Hiruzen's part 1 hype already failed there.

Dan + Madara+ Kabuto again screw up Hiruzen's hype.

Winner will always be the one protrayed as the strongest shinobi of the modern time.

1-He has copyrights but he doesn't translate nor produce the anime. The anime also adds in things that aren't apart of the manga. so another lie as well.
2-The manga clearly states that in order to use a KKG it must be apart of your blood and to use a hidden jutsu you must be apart of the clan so anothe lie by you as well.
3-The 3rd databook came out prior to susanoo being appeared yet you claim the databooks come out after all those jutsus appearances. So once again another lie

4-I'm still waiting for the page that states hashirama is physically stronger then tsunade. Present it please. Of course unless your lieing which would be absolutely normal for you.

 

[MrSimple]

Sadly, your misguided. Manga pages = proof. Tobirama and Hashirama are HAILED as the best shinobis the leaf has ever seen. So Hiruzen's part 1 hype already failed there.

LOl, the most hyped of all, really? Take aside Tobirama please. Should I have to say that he was defeated by bunch of hyped shinobis?
Now,
it was stated in the manga that even Madara acknowledge Hashirama as the best of his time. But that has nothing to do with all time.
Madara already surpassed him by power. But that's another story.

 

[Unbiased]

Sorry, best is best. Hiruzen is not one of the best.. And since those to are considered the Best.. it means minato and Hiruzen aren't on their levels. Simple as that. You and your word twisting is getting annoying now.

Hiruzen is the God of shinobi
Hashirama was the "best shinobi"

God is superior to all. Another lie by the infamous kinghashirma

Definition of God - the supreme or ultimate reality. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient. Hiruzens powers were considered to be supreme and ultimate.

Definition of Best - most productive of good

case and point.

 

[Owarij]

LOl, the most hyped of all, really? Take aside Tobirama please. Should I have to say that he was defeated by bunch of hyped shinobis?
Now,
it was stated in the manga that even Madara acknowledge Hashirama as the best of his time. But that has nothing to do with all time.
Madara already surpassed him by power. But that's another story.

Really dont know why this guy thinks tobirama was = madara, when Madara stated Hashirama was the strongest of that time

 

[KingHashirama]

1-He has copyrights but he doesn't translate nor produce the anime. The anime also adds in things that aren't apart of the manga. so another lie as well.
2-The manga clearly states that in order to use a KKG it must be apart of your blood and to use a hidden jutsu you must be apart of the clan so anothe lie by you as well.
3-The 3rd databook came out prior to susanoo being appeared yet you claim the databooks come out after all those jutsus appearances. So once again another lie

4-I'm still waiting for the page that states hashirama is physically stronger then tsunade. Present it please. Of course unless your lieing which would be absolutely normal for you.

1. Copyright means Kishimoto "okays" them. Do you understand that? If you still don't want to count it as canon that is your choice and go take it with Kishimoto. But your on Naruto discussion not on Naruto Manga forum.
2. Never said it doesn't state that. But Mokuton, and other sharingan jutsus are Hidden leaf jutsus.
3. Go check the date. Susano'o was already revealed.

LOl, the most hyped of all, really? Take aside Tobirama please. Should I have to say that he was defeated by bunch of hyped shinobis?
Now,
it was stated in the manga that even Madara acknowledge Hashirama as the best of his time. But that has nothing to do with all time.
Madara already surpassed him by power. But that's another story.

20 Elite ninjas > 2 edos who toyed you and a low kage level ninja

Never said it has nothing to do with all the time.. But its the samething as the SO6P. He had the rinnegan to control the Juubi.. Hashirama had mokuton to control the Bijuus. Creating mountain tier jutsus.... Sarutobi and other Hokages are not even close to that buddy.

Madara surpassed him by power , but as a ninja has he? He himself doesn't believe that. So who are we to say?

Hiruzen is the God of shinobi
Hashirama was the "best shinobi"

God is superior to all. Another lie by the infamous kinghashirma

Definition of God - the supreme or ultimate reality. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient. Hiruzens powers were considered to be supreme and ultimate.

Definition of Best - most productive of good

case and point.

"called" < "Hailed"

Hailed as Best shinobi > Was called "God of shinobi".

Pain is the only true "GOD" in the series..."GOD" is a supreme being.. Sarutobi was just considered the god of humans.. Pain was GOD of everything.

And why are you bringing literal definitions into this?

 

[Unbiased]

1. Copyright means Kishimoto "okays" them. Do you understand that? If you still don't want to count it as canon that is your choice and go take it with Kishimoto. But your on Naruto discussion not on Naruto Manga forum.
2. Never said it doesn't state that. But Mokuton, and other sharingan jutsus are Hidden leaf jutsus.
3. Go check the date. Susano'o was already revealed.


20 Elite ninjas > 2 edos who toyed you and a low kage level ninja

Never said it has nothing to do with all the time.. But its the samething as the SO6P. He had the rinnegan to control the Juubi.. Hashirama had mokuton to control the Bijuus. Creating mountain tier jutsus.... Sarutobi and other Hokages are not even close to that buddy.

Madara surpassed him by power , but as a ninja has he? He himself doesn't believe that. So who are we to say?

1-He may okay it but if something is not in the manga it is not canon bottom line. Kishi okays the fillers but Guren isn't canon. Chikara isn't canon even though its okay'd. So please stop making up lies
2-No mokuton is hashirama's jutsu, sharingan is the uchiha's dojutsu. They aren't apart of the hidden leafs jutsus. Those are hidden jutsu's specific to ones clan. Once again you make up another lie
3-September 4th 2008 was when databook 3 was released. Susanoo was not apart of the manga yet. Case and point. Once again you make up another lie.