hiruzen is not the strongest hokage... proof

[mrcrazyboyravi]

Never said or implied that madara was the only person who mastered 3tomoe...I'm saying all that scan really says is he was just on another level than them... with sharingan and the very fact that he and hashirama are rivals , he knows how he fights and can read his moves better...


Also I highly doubt ems was the reason he saw through it.. Madara mentions fights in the old days... which he didn't have with hashirama after getting ems... It was shortly after his brother gave him his eyes that the truce happened and he attacked konoha


Urm you can't say that with a surity that hiruzen will get impaled by it... wtf? You don't know if he'll see through it... He was his student afterall and may very well know about it enough to avoid it

And being kind? that scan never said EMS, you're jumping to your own conclusions.. Sharingan on a whole is a eye technique..

Dont base your posts on assumptions.
Why are u manipulating the words of madara. when itachi said only a sharingan user with true uchihaa blood can break tsukuyomi , then u agree but when madara said only he can know difference between Hashi's clone then why do u ignore the fact.
If u said madara is wrong when he said nobody is as strong as Hashi then why do u only believe iruka saying he is said to be the strongest of all hokages.

If u think A>B>C logic dont apply in narutoverse then there is no one strongest in this world because there will always be a man who might be better suited to fight against other. So Hiruzen's title of god of shinobi is automatically disqualified.But would u agree for him to give up his god of shinobi title .

obviously No

because u are a hippocrite. u can never know who is stronger than who unless u create a Vs fight between two opponent but its virtually impossible.But I guess u would definately agree Hashirama can Solo almost every shinobi alive or dead , excluding edo madara. and Hiruazen can do that so by win to loose ratio Hashi is stronger shinobi than Hiruzen

 

[Owarij]

Dont base your posts on assumptions.
Why are u manipulating the words of madara. when itachi said only a sharingan user with true uchihaa blood can break tsukuyomi , then u agree but when madara said only he can know difference between Hashi's clone then why do u ignore the fact.
If u said madara is wrong when he said nobody is as strong as Hashi then why do u only believe iruka saying he is said to be the strongest of all hokages.

If u think A>B>C logic dont apply in narutoverse then there is no one strongest in this world because there will always be a man who might be better suited to fight against other. So Hiruzen's title of god of shinobi is automatically disqualified.But would u agree for him to give up his god of shinobi title .

obviously No

because u are a hippocrite. u can never know who is stronger than who unless u create a Vs fight between two opponent but its virtually impossible.But I guess u would definately agree Hashirama can Solo almost every shinobi alive or dead , excluding edo madara. and Hiruazen can do that so by win to loose ratio Hashi is stronger shinobi than Hiruzen

None of what you said made any sense or relates to me in any way

 

[TrollingSage]

Was Madara not the strongest in his clan? did he not have a strong rivalry with hashirama?
according to the other guy arguing against hiruzen

Why isn't Madara dead? if he could only see through it at ems, why isn't he dead... unless you're going to say that hashirama developed his moukouton clone technique at vote as well -_-...

If Madara could survive it (According to you ofc) , why is there surety that Hiruzen will die?

Hiruzen doesnt have susano.

 

[OnPoint]

Geez, you're persistent.

From past experience, I know that continuing to argue the definition with you won't won't result in a definite winner of this debate. So let me make the winner much more "definite".

You were only arguing with an Englishman about the English language.

I want to start off by stating that you're logic is similar to the infamous "ABC" logic. It's simply coated with extra icing with a cherry on top to make is seem sweet and pretty. You believe, because Hashirama's power was unbelievable, he's>Hiruzen, the God of shinobi who came afterward.

No, ABC logic would be saying Hashirama > Madara > Hiruzen. In fact, if you actually read my posts then you would've seen that I never explicitly stated Hashirama was stronger than Hiruzen. Rather, that Hiruzen's hype was based around misinformation and ignorance. Even though my arguments are based around the notion that Shodai is the strongest Hokage.

There was once nine monstrous beast, that terrorized the world. Rumors spread of a shinobi, who defeated the beasts by reading them a bedtime story, he tamed them and even took them for walks in the park, rubbed their bellies, taught them how to roll over and all that good stuff. Rumors of this power spread. You see the size of that perfect susano'o? Yeah...take that and multiply its size and number by 5, hell, let's go completely crazy and say that the only thing that could be seen of them from earth was their fat toe. Legends say that he went around slaying them with spit bubbles, you got it...spit bubbles. People who heard of this shinobi, is all like, "What?? GTFO!". There was another shinobi whose feats may not be as great or "unbelievable" as this fairy tail, but it earned him "God of shinobi" nonetheless. Why? Because he would go into every battle, and come out untouched, and had the power to solo countries by himself. One day, he had an encounter with this fairy tale, when the legend took out his book, the god of shinobi trolled him...simply by putting in earplugs. When the "fairy tale" start shooting out those spit bubble that killed giants of unbelievable size, the shinobi used another convenient jutsu in his arsenal, he went intangible....then the god of shinobi showed him the jutsu that took out countries, it was a very quiet, but extremely deadly jutsu. Its odor killed all life. The only thing that remained of this fairy-tale was his spit bubbles floating in the air...

This is just a story with little relevance to the actual debate. You've tried to parallel Sarutobi and Hashirama but you've missed out a few key points. The current Gokage had no knowledge on Perfect Susano'o, as proven in the manga. Therefore, even they could not comprehend to stories they were hearing as children. This is made even more obvious by the fact that the true nature of Hashirama's strength wasn't even passed through his bloodline and to his granddaughter, Tsuande. She didn't know about the nature of his Iryō Ninjutsu. You seem to be implying that most villagers knew everything there was to know about Hashirama and actively chose to disregard his exploits and fairytales. No, they doubted his power because they didn't know much about his abilities and could not therefore comprehend how he was able to take on EMS Madara & the Kyūbi. Hell, they couldn't witness Shodai's full Mokuton arsenal because he was the only one who could use Wood Release to its fullest. Why would people not believe in Hashirama's weaker strength? This is a completely fallacious argument. If they thought what Hashirama accomplished was absurd, then there's no way they'd have believed in Hiruzen's God of Shinobi feats. It doesn't work. The fact is the nature of Hashirama's strength wasn't acceptable; it was more akin to a bedtime story. Sandaime Hokage's feats, on the other hand, were far more believable and modest. To be honest I don't even understand what you're trying to imply with the last part of your story.

This is Hiruzen...the man who was called the God of Shinobi, even when a man stood up against 10,000 shinobi and fought a tailed beast toe to toe. The strongest of the kage...even among kages that could use techs like dust release, the man who knew and could use every jutsu in konoha, which obviously wouldn't last long as a village if every jutsu in konoha was a b-rank jutsu during an era of such powerful shinobi. The man who knew 1,000 genjutsus, the man who was taught by the 1st and 2nd, the man who recognized some jutsus of the 1st...yeah..
We're done here.

Yet they believed in this power. They didn't even think what Hashirama had done was possible.

 

[Owarij]

Hiruzen doesnt have susano.

Madara fought Hashirama with 3tomoe as well my friend, he survived didn't he?

 

[Omnipotent]

Omnipotent just walked himself into a corner

Quotes from him thus far

(Madara never said that, but for the sake of argument lets go on)


Good,

1) before vote etc, Madara never had EMS
2) According to you, Ems is necessary to see through moukouton clone\
3) Without being able to see through moukotuon you will be fodderized if you don't have the ability to heal

so since hiruzen doesn't have ems, he can't see through the jutsu

Madara fought hashirama what? hundreds of times, with ms and 3tomoe collectively

why is he not dead , if he could only see through it with ems

Good try, but he only became the leader of the Uchiha after he obtained MS and EMS and only fought Hashirama EVENTUALLY after becoming the leader of the Uchiha:

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[TrollingSage]

Madara fought Hashirama with 3tomoe as well my friend, he survived didn't he?

Proof? And just as Madara improved, Hashirama would have as well. Just saying

 

[Disquiet]

You were only arguing with an Englishman about the English language.



No, ABC logic would be saying Hashirama > Madara > Hiruzen. In fact, if you actually read my posts then you would've seen that I never explicitly stated Hashirama was stronger than Hiruzen. Rather, that Hiruzen's hype was based around misinformation and ignorance. Even though my arguments are based around the notion that Shodai is the strongest Hokage.



This is just a story with little relevance to the actual debate. You've tried to parallel Sarutobi and Hashirama but you've missed out a few key points. The current Gokage had no knowledge on Perfect Susano'o, as proven in the manga. Therefore, even they could not comprehend to stories they were hearing as children. This is made even more obvious by the fact that the true nature of Hashirama's strength wasn't even passed through his bloodline and to his granddaughter, Tsuande. She didn't know about the nature of his Iryō Ninjutsu. You seem to be implying that most villagers knew everything there was to know about Hashirama and actively chose to disregard his exploits and fairytales. No, they doubted his power because they didn't know much about his abilities and could not therefore comprehend how he was able to take on EMS Madara & the Kyūbi. Hell, they couldn't witness Shodai's full Mokuton arsenal because he was the only one who could use Wood Release to its fullest. Why would people not believe in Hashirama's weaker strength? This is a completely fallacious argument. If they thought what Hashirama accomplished was absurd, then there's no way they'd have believed in Hiruzen's God of Shinobi feats. It doesn't work. The fact is the nature of Hashirama's strength wasn't acceptable; it was more akin to a bedtime story. Sandaime Hokage's feats, on the other hand, were far more believable and modest. To be honest I don't even understand what you're trying to imply with the last part of your story.



Yet they believed in this power. They didn't even think what Hashirama had done was possible.

You obviously don't understand the principal of the story. It doesn't even matter if it was unknown or unacceptable. I suggest you read over it carefully, and really grasp it.

The rest of what you say is irreverent because it has already been countered.


He farted. :|

 

[painuzimaki]

Duuh! Of course he's not the strongest.

 

[Owarij]

Proof? And just as Madara improved, Hashirama would have as well. Just saying

Alright, I concede that part of my argument T.T,
@Noddy, people are different... Itachi apparently is able to read emotions and predict moves of the enemy ahead of time with his sharingan.....

There may have been others who mastered 3 tomoe, but i'm saying that Just because Madara saw through it , doesn't mean the rest weren't masters of the eye...
I'm still doubting madara was talking about ems for one reason

He had literally like one fight with hashirama with ems .....I still dont see why he'd call that One fight back in the old days..... you say he could be referring to that time period as the old days, but Why didn't he say something like

"I saw through it ONCE back then"

 

[OnPoint]

You obviously don't understand the principal of the story. It doesn't even matter if it was unknown or unacceptable. I suggest you read over it carefully, and really grasp it.

The rest of what you say is irreverent because it has already been countered.


He farted. :|

Your story wasn't even specific to Hashirama and Hiruzen. You missed out the key aspects.

Countered by who? You?

 

[Omnipotent]

Alright, I concede that part of my argument T.T,
@Noddy, people are different... Itachi apparently is able to read emotions and predict moves of the enemy ahead of time with his sharingan.....

There may have been others who mastered 3 tomoe, but i'm saying that Just because Madara saw through it , doesn't mean the rest weren't masters of the eye...
I'm still doubting madara was talking about ems for one reason

He had literally like one fight with hashirama with ems .....I still dont see why he'd call that One fight back in the old days..... you say he could be referring to that time period as the old days, but Why didn't he say something like

"I saw through it ONCE back then"

We know that there were others who mastered 3T sharingan; basically just about any adult Uchiha did:

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The point is that even they couldn't see through it and only Madara with his EMS saw through Hashirama's wood clone technique.

And he didn't have any fights with Hashirama when he had MS or 3T sharingan as shown in the manga pages; he only fought with Hashirama AFTER he became the leader of the Uchiha clan which was AFTER he got EMS.

And because it took EMS to see through Hashirama's wood clone jutsu, Hiruzen wouldn't be able to see it and would get impaled. And die.

 

[Disquiet]

Your story wasn't even specific to Hashirama and Hiruzen. You missed out the key aspects.

Countered by who? You?

:sy: So then no one hears about this fairy-tale until after the fall of the God of Shinobi, and then they're all like..... What the hell?? You really do need to understand the principal of the story.


:y

 

[-Logic-]

This is quite an entertaining thread.

 

[OnPoint]

:sy: So then no one hears about this fairy-tale until after the fall of the God of Shinobi, and then they're all like. What the hell?? You really do need to understand the principal of the story.


:y

No, it is you who seems unable to understand what has been implied by the manga. People heard about Hashirama's strength, doubted it was as strong as suggested (which is exactly what Kabuto said) and therefore wrote it off as a fairytale like Rikudō Sennin's power. People don't factor in 'fairytales' when they're trying to conclude who the strongest Hokage is, obviously. They only use raw, believable facts. Honestly this isn't even a hard concept to grasp.

 

[Owarij]

And he didn't have any fights with Hashirama when he had MS or 3T sharingan as shown in the manga pages; he only fought with Hashirama AFTER he became the leader of the Uchiha clan which was AFTER he got EMS.

Urm no, your scans indicate that he got ms and fought hashirama

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Madara got the ms and became leader..
after many fights he became blind
his brother gave him his eyes and died..
At this time uchiha and senju signed a truce
Madara angry that his brother died in vain attacked konoha

which would be almost the only fight ems madara would go against hashirama

 

[Disquiet]

No, it is you who seems unable to understand what has been implied by the manga. People heard about Hashirama's strength, doubted it was as strong as suggested (which is exactly what Kabuto said) and therefore wrote it off as a fairytale like Rikudō Sennin's power. People don't factor in 'fairytales' when they're trying to conclude who the strongest Hokage is, obviously. They only use raw, believable facts. Honestly this isn't even a hard concept to grasp.

Sigh...let me redirect you to this comment.

That's some flawless logic for you right there.

What you fail to understand is that you're "flawless logic" is no longer flawless. Whether this "fairy-tale strength" automatically guarantees that Hashirama is the strongest hokage, isn't absolute. I hope now you understand the principal.

 

[OnPoint]

Sigh...let me redirect you to this comment.




What you fail to understand is that you're "flawless logic" is no longer flawless. Whether this "fairy-tale strength" automatically guarantees that Hashirama is the strongest hokage, isn't absolute. I hope now you understand the principal.

That flawless logic you posted was mere of forwarding what Hiruzen fans imply when they take Iruka's statement as absolute. And quite frankly you've just proved that you haven't grasped what i've said. Those posts are showing why Iruka's statement isn't absolute - it's showing why there is a problem with its validity. Hurr durr that's why I told you I was never explicitly arguing that Hashirama was the best thing since sliced bread, rather, that Hiruzen isn't the strongest Hokage by virtue of manga hype.

 

[Son Ryuto Uzumaki]

Hiruzen was weak none can compare him to Prime Minato which was never seen or Prime Hashirama or Prime Madara. Madara may not have been Hokage but he would make Prime Hiruzen wish he was dead. Hiruzen never faced trails like the other Hokage's Minato Kurama and Obito while protecting his family, Hashirama vs Angry prideful Madara and Kurama. Hiruzen WOULD NOT be able to go toe to toe with Angry Madara like Hashirama did and won. Hiruzen was overestimated and incapable considering all the things he allowed to take place while he was Hokage Thread over U_U

 

[Omnipotent]

Urm no, your scans indicate that he got ms and fought hashirama

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Madara got the ms and became leader..
after many fights he became blind
his brother gave him his eyes and died..
At this time uchiha and senju signed a truce
Madara angry that his brother died in vain attacked konoha

which would be almost the only fight ems madara would go against hashirama

Nah:

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"But thanks to those efforts, I obtained a perfect Mangekyou Sharingan" (EMS, "efforts" referring to sacrificing his friends for MS, and taking his brother's eyes for EMS).

"And with this power at my command, I often found myself pitted against the Senju. It was inevitable I would one day face its leader, Hashirama"

Anyways, Itachi also said that Madara was the strongest shinobi in the world:

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But we all know that's not true:

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