hiruzen is not the strongest hokage... proof

[Owarij]

How would Hiruzen solo the five Kage low-mid difficulty as Edo Madara implied Hashirama could do?

Once again, abc logic, not even going to bother going into a long argument

IF Sasori can defeat a country of ninja
and kakashi can defeat sasori
does that mean Kakashi > a country as well?

stfu

You're comparing a character with whom we are getting to see alot of his jutsu, to one who it was explicitly stated that he couldn't use ANY of his powerful jutsu because his chakra levels was too depleted from old age? eh ? eh?

You have no idea what hiruzen is capable of, no idea where his hype stemmed from.... no idea what people saw on the battle field to give this man the title of the rikkudo....You saw a old man who enma called miserable compared to his younger days....

Tell me how Hiruzen would be able to get out of the vicinity in time before he is knocked unconscious by flower power jutsu.

As i've said before alot of times, if kishi continued with enma's mythology ,he would have a kkg named cloud release....
You'll say that that's just an unssurpoted claim, true, very true.. but kishi follows the mythology.. just like everyone knew that izanami would appear once izanagi was used.... like people knew there would have been a sussanno after tsukyomi and amaterasu...

enma the monkey king, aside from being able to transform into 72 different things (2 were shown in the manga, cage and pole), was able to control wind and water, and combine them to make clouds..
You should know in the myth that he is also able to ride these clouds


Now is it unlikely the personal summoning of a hokage has elments? he has hands, is smart, and has lived for just about like over 100 years.... even some of the frogs can use water release etc...


Once again, you know nothing of hiruzen

oops double post

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[Waltz]

There's no proff in this thread, but i agree to the title.

 

[Senpai1507]

He isn't strongest Hokage for sure,there's no need for proofs.

 

[mrcrazyboyravi]

1-Does it matter? It still doesn't refute it logically being the best option. What's the point of normally sealing them if the user can just re-summon them after killing the sealer.
2-He wanted to deal the appropriate punishment according to the manga.

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3-Databook volume 2 Tsunade character bio "Brash, free spirited, monstrous strength, no one can stop princess Tsunade." No where in the manga or databooks is it stated Hashirama had monstrous strength. Therefore she automatically has superior strength due to hashirama not having any feats of strength.

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Madara thinks all 5 kage's combined attack was just a little game compared to his epic fight with hashirama.

lolz how idiot u r to compare tsunade's strength against lord hashirama.Tsunade is pathetic in every aspect to hashirama. Even a kid kabuto nearly killed tsunade but naruto saved her ass. even madara will mock on your funny posts.

 

[Omnipotent]

Once again, abc logic, not even going to bother going into a long argument

IF Sasori can defeat a country of ninja
and kakashi can defeat sasori
does that mean Kakashi > a country as well?

stfu

You're comparing a character with whom we are getting to see alot of his jutsu, to one who it was explicitly stated that he couldn't use ANY of his powerful jutsu because his chakra levels was too depleted from old age? eh ? eh?

You have no idea what hiruzen is capable of, no idea where his hype stemmed from.... no idea what people saw on the battle field to give this man the title of the rikkudo....You saw a old man who enma called miserable compared to his younger days....
As i've said before alot of times, if kishi continued with enma's mythology ,he would have a kkg named cloud release....
You'll say that that's just an unssurpoted claim, true, very true.. but kishi follows the mythology.. just like everyone knew that izanami would appear once izanagi was used.... like people knew there would have been a sussanno after tsukyomi and amaterasu...

enma the monkey king, aside from being able to transform into 72 different things (2 were shown in the manga, cage and pole), was able to control wind and water, and combine them to make clouds..
You should know in the myth that he is also able to ride these clouds


Now is it unlikely the personal summoning of a hokage has elments? he has hands, is smart, and has lived for just about like over 100 years.... even some of the frogs can use water release etc...


Once again, you know nothing of hiruzen

oops double post

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You're right about that A>B>C logic part. I apologize.

However, how would Hiruzen avoid Hashirama's mokuton clone jutsu, which impaled Tsunade, when Edo Madara said only himself with his EMS was able to see through it (meaning it would take at LEAST an MS user to see through it)?

I also disagree with that Enma part because those are only assumptions on what Kishi would have done, but whatever makes you happy.

 

[-Logic-]

Despite the proof in the OP is non-existent, what you claim isn't too much a fabrication of the truth.

 

[Owarij]

However, how would Hiruzen avoid Hashirama's mokuton clone jutsu, which impaled Tsunade, when Edo Madara said only himself with his EMS was able to see through it (meaning it would take at LEAST an MS user to see through it)?

Of course you disagree with the enma part

and that claim in no way implies that only a ms user could see through it... It just implies that back then only madara could....
don't compare hiruzen to tsunade please, not the same shinobi

 

[OnPoint]

Of course you disagree with the enma part

and that claim in no way implies that only a ms user could see through it... It just implies that back then only madara could....
don't compare hiruzen to tsunade please, not the same shinobi

He could see through it with his eye techniques [

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]. It had to be something beyond a 3 tomoe otherwise all the Uchiha from that time (with the basic sharingan) would see through the jutsu.

 

[Owarij]

He could see through it with his eye techniques [

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]. It had to be something beyond a 3 tomoe otherwise all the Uchiha from that time (with the basic sharingan) would see through the jutsu.

As I said, that could just mean that Madara was just above the rest in use of his sharingan and seeing through hashirama..
Izuna also had ms, why would he say he's the only one..
that puts a dent in your theory that he saw through it BECAUSE of MS..

 

[OnPoint]

As I said, that could just mean that Madara was just above the rest in use of his sharingan and seeing through hashirama..
Izuna also had ms, why would he say he's the only one..
that puts a dent in your theory that he saw through it BECAUSE of MS..

I never said MS is particular. I simply said above the 3 tomoe. And the idea that Madara was the only one to have mastered the 3 tomoe just doesn't cut it for me, since the Uchiha was supposed to have been the strongest clan in the world alongside the Senju. So they clearly must've had some capable shinobi. Further, there was a problem with Izanagi spam and i'm sure that this jutsu requires high level use of the 3 tomoe.

 

[Omnipotent]

Of course you disagree with the enma part

and that claim in no way implies that only a ms user could see through it... It just implies that back then only madara could....
don't compare hiruzen to tsunade please, not the same shinobi

Yes it does. Only Madara with his EMS could see through it. That means even sensors couldn't and 3T sharingan wasn't enough either. However, Izuna was never stated to have faced Hashirama so we can't say whether or not it takes EMS or MS to see through it but I was being kind in saying MS could see through it. Either way, Hiruzen gets impaled and he won't be able to instantly heal from it, in fact he would die.

Welll that's not what I was doing but if you say so.

 

[Owarij]

I never said MS is particular. I simply said above the 3 tomoe. And the idea that Madara was the only one to have mastered the 3 tomoe just doesn't cut it for me, since the Uchiha was supposed to have been the strongest clan in the world alongside the Senju. So they clearly must've had some capable shinobi. Further, there was a problem with Izanagi spam and i'm sure that this jutsu requires high level use of the 3 tomoe.

Never said or implied that madara was the only person who mastered 3tomoe...I'm saying all that scan really says is he was just on another level than them... with sharingan and the very fact that he and hashirama are rivals , he knows how he fights and can read his moves better...


Also I highly doubt ems was the reason he saw through it.. Madara mentions fights in the old days... which he didn't have with hashirama after getting ems... It was shortly after his brother gave him his eyes that the truce happened and he attacked konoha

Yes it does. Only Madara with his EMS could see through it. That means even sensors couldn't and 3T sharingan wasn't enough either. However, Izuna was never stated to have faced Hashirama so we can't say whether or not it takes EMS or MS to see through it but I was being kind in saying MS could see through it. Either way, Hiruzen gets impaled and he won't be able to instantly heal from it, in fact he would die.

Welll that's not what I was doing but if you say so.

Urm you can't say that with a surity that hiruzen will get impaled by it... wtf? You don't know if he'll see through it... He was his student afterall and may very well know about it enough to avoid it

And being kind? that scan never said EMS, you're jumping to your own conclusions.. Sharingan on a whole is a eye technique..

 

[OnPoint]

Never said or implied that madara was the only person who mastered 3tomoe...I'm saying all that scan really says is he was just on another level than them... with sharingan and the very fact that he and hashirama are rivals , he knows how he fights and can read his moves better...


Also I highly doubt ems was the reason he saw through it.. Madara mentions fights in the old days... which he didn't have with hashirama after getting ems... It was shortly after his brother gave him his eyes that the truce happened and he attacked konoha

The scan shows that he was able to see through the Tajū Mokuton Bunshin with his ocular powers. Why would he be on another level than the rest in terms of the 3 tomoe alone? As I said, this was a world famous clan with capable shinobi (who, in some cases, were spamming high level, forbidden ocular jutsu). What separated Madara from the rest was his Mangekyō Sharingan, which is what the manga has suggested when it speaks of him being the first to unlock the Sharingan's secrets. This, however, implies that Izuna should've also been able to see through the jutsu. But since that page seems to highlight Madara as the only one who could see through the technique, the door is open for the possession of the EMS being necessary, as Madara was the only one to achieve this level of Sharingan.

The old days is simply the Hashirama/Madara era. He was speaking to the Gokage in the present, so the time at which VOTE occured would have been the old days.

 

[gameove]

Enma have been alive for an long time, and he commented on the fight with Orochimaru saying that it was "miserable" compared to his prime. Hashirama is nothing more than hype too, it's only Madara that respects him and calls him strong; but he never called him god of shinobi's or the strongest Hokage.

Both are hype, but being able to fight two former Hokages at age of 69.... Dude, give the man credit

couldnt of said it better myself

 

[mrcrazyboyravi]

Let me end this thread once and for all.

Hiruzen has no K.G , no special powers , no feats in his entire life.

Danzou was always a rival to Hiruzen but Hiruzen was always a little better . That's why Hiruzen was hokage bcoz every one in konoha was shit at Hiruzen time period .

Hiruzen during 9 tail fox attack must have been scared as shit , that why he said where are u minato ?? Hiruzen did virtually nothing when konoha needed him the most .

Hiruzen was toied by Orochimaru and made him suicide by himself.

All Hiruzen could offer was a borrowed jutsu from Minato just to seal the hands of Orochimaru.


I think even Tsunade is a better hokage feats wise than Hiruzen bcoz he saved many peoples in konoha during pain's attack. as well as healed Kagae's wound while fighting edo madara


yea u guys can say A>B>C is not valid in narutoverse but Tiger >Leopard>Cat and u need no explanation to know that Tiger > cat. and Its called Commonsense.

 

[Disquiet]

I gave you the actual full english definition of the word 'many' when used with a plural verb since you were confused. There is no other meaning for the word 'many' in this context, it's as simple as that. It has been used to signify the majority of people, and i've even shown that the leaders of the five villages were completely clueless when it came to what Shodai fought (Perfect Susano'o), his abilities (the level of his Iryō Ninjutsu) - now, you seem to imply that the people of the village would be more knowledgeable than the higher ups. That the 'majority' of people would know more about Hashirama than his own granddaughter, Tsunade, the 5th Hokage.

Geez, you're persistent.

From past experience, I know that continuing to argue the definition with you won't won't result in a definite winner of this debate. So let me make the winner much more "definite".


I want to start off by stating that you're logic is similar to the infamous "ABC" logic. It's simply coated with extra icing with a cherry on top to make is seem sweet and pretty. You believe, because Hashirama's power was unbelievable, he's>Hiruzen, the God of shinobi who came afterward.



There was once nine monstrous beast, that terrorized the world. Rumors spread of a shinobi, who defeated the beasts by reading them a bedtime story, he tamed them and even took them for walks in the park, rubbed their bellies, taught them how to roll over and all that good stuff. Rumors of this power spread. You see the size of that perfect susano'o? Yeah...take that and multiply its size and number by 5, hell, let's go completely crazy and say that the only thing that could be seen of them from earth was their fat toe. Legends say that he went around slaying them with spit bubbles, you got it...spit bubbles. People who heard of this shinobi, is all like, "What?? GTFO!". There was another shinobi whose feats may not be as great or "unbelievable" as this fairy tail, but it earned him "God of shinobi" nonetheless. Why? Because he would go into every battle, and come out untouched, and had the power to solo countries by himself. One day, he had an encounter with this fairy tale, when the legend took out his book, the god of shinobi trolled him...simply by putting in earplugs. When the "fairy tale" start shooting out those spit bubble that killed giants of unbelievable size, the shinobi used another convenient jutsu in his arsenal, he went intangible....then the god of shinobi showed him the jutsu that took out countries, it was a very quiet, but extremely deadly jutsu. Its odor killed all life. The only thing that remained of this fairy-tale was his spit bubbles floating in the air...


This is Hiruzen...the man who was called the God of Shinobi, even when a man stood up against 10,000 shinobi and fought a tailed beast toe to toe. The strongest of the kage...even among kages that could use techs like dust release, the man who knew and could use every jutsu in konoha, which obviously wouldn't last long as a village if every jutsu in konoha was a b-rank jutsu during an era of such powerful shinobi. The man who knew 1,000 genjutsus, the man who was taught by the 1st and 2nd, the man who recognized some jutsus of the 1st...yeah..


We're done here.

 

[gameove]

Don't worry, I'll solo:



How would Hiruzen solo the five Kage low-mid difficulty as Edo Madara implied Hashirama could do?

How would Hiruzen avoid Hashirama's mokuton clone jutsu? He wouldn't, because he doesn't have EMS like Madara. He would be fodderized and die from Hashirama's clone (Tsunade was impaled by it).

How would Hiruzen counter Hashirama's flower power jutsu? He wouldn't, he'd be knocked unconscious.

Too easy.

dude hes called the proffesser for a reason . he knows almost every justu in his village

 

[Omnipotent]

Never said or implied that madara was the only person who mastered 3tomoe...I'm saying all that scan really says is he was just on another level than them... with sharingan and the very fact that he and hashirama are rivals , he knows how he fights and can read his moves better...


Also I highly doubt ems was the reason he saw through it.. Madara mentions fights in the old days... which he didn't have with hashirama after getting ems... It was shortly after his brother gave him his eyes that the truce happened and he attacked konoha




Urm you can't say that with a surity that hiruzen will get impaled by it... wtf? You don't know if he'll see through it... He was his student afterall and may very well know about it enough to avoid it

And being kind? that scan never said EMS, you're jumping to your own conclusions.. Sharingan on a whole is a eye technique..

Tobirama was Hiruzen's sensei; it doesn't even say how often Hashirama assisted Tobirama with this so it could have been once a year for all we know. And Madara implies that it takes a dojutsu user to see through ithis, and not only that, but an EMS user.

No, you're going against the manga. What else would Madara be referring to? Where does it state that his 3T sharingan prior to having EMS was special? It doesn't, does it? Oh.

Hiruzen gets impaled and dies.

Even your flower power argument is only based on your assumptions of things that COULD have happened but DIDN'T happen so that's invalid.

Hiruzen gets knocked unconscious, then dies.

What counters has Hiruzen shown that would work against these two jutsu?

What jutsu does Hiruzen have (that doesn't include him suiciding) that Hashirama absolutely cannot counter against?

Oh.

 

[Owarij]

The scan shows that he was able to see through the Tajū Mokuton Bunshin with his ocular powers. Why would he be on another level than the rest in terms of the 3 tomoe alone? As I said, this was a world famous clan with capable shinobi (who, in some cases, were spamming high level, forbidden ocular jutsu). What separated Madara from the rest was his Mangekyō Sharingan, which is what the manga has suggested when it speaks of him being the first to unlock the Sharingan's secrets. This, however, implies that Izuna should've also been able to see through the jutsu. But since that page seems to highlight Madara as the only one who could see through the technique, the door is open for the possession of the EMS being necessary, as Madara was the only one to achieve this level of Sharingan.

The old days is simply the Hashirama/Madara era. He was speaking to the Gokage in the present, so the time at which VOTE occured would have been the old days.

Was Madara not the strongest in his clan? did he not have a strong rivalry with hashirama?
according to the other guy arguing against hiruzen

Why isn't Madara dead? if he could only see through it at ems, why isn't he dead... unless you're going to say that hashirama developed his moukouton clone technique at vote as well -_-...

If Madara could survive it (According to you ofc) , why is there surety that Hiruzen will die?

 

[Owarij]

Omnipotent just walked himself into a corner

Quotes from him thus far

How would Hiruzen avoid Hashirama's mokuton clone jutsu? He wouldn't, because he doesn't have EMS like Madara. He would be fodderized and die from Hashirama's clone (Tsunade was impaled by it).

Tell me how Hiruzen doesn't get impaled by Hashirama's mokuton clone when only Madara with his EMS could see through it (as stated by himself).

(Madara never said that, but for the sake of argument lets go on)

Either way, Hiruzen gets impaled and he won't be able to instantly heal from it, in fact he would die.

Good,

1) before vote etc, Madara never had EMS
2) According to you, Ems is necessary to see through moukouton clone\
3) Without being able to see through moukotuon you will be fodderized if you don't have the ability to heal

so since hiruzen doesn't have ems, he can't see through the jutsu

Madara fought hashirama what? hundreds of times, with ms and 3tomoe collectively

why is he not dead , if he could only see through it with ems