Genetics are hardly relevant

[KingHashirama]

But still the two sons is their predecessor directly teached by hagoromo himself the founder of Ninshuu I guess. How the offspring after a few generations has the equal amount of chakra as their predecessor had. The older sons inherited his father's power while the younger son was entrusted to be the juubi jin. How hashirama's and madara's power are able to feat the sons of the sage? So, I still believe the sage's sons is stronger.

Same reason how Hashirama had vastly more chakra than any non-jinchuriki shown in the manga so far.

All the uchiha and Senju have the powers of the Sage.. again the problem is to what extent..

 

[rollin]

Sorry but you seem to believe that I HAVE to provide proof. I am going with what i am given, and what i am given is drastically weaker than Madara and Hashirama..

No one in the current generation knows hardly anything about Rikudou.. but still a legend surpassing all.

But again i''m not seeing any reasoning from you.. what is the obvious thing? That Buddha itself solos both of them together ? Or the huge amount of ninjutsu experience gap? Or the fact Madara and Hashirama have been fighting in a war since they were little kids.. ?


And also, sadly no. Mokuton is a birth thing.. not something people can learn.

"2 power ups".. umm i recall him using Susanoo without his eyes.. while the older son needed his eyes. And having EMS doesn't really mean you unlock PS.. and on top of that Sasuke who will be the strongest of all the uchiha also had to get 2 powerups.. so by logic The older son somehow did have an EMS.. otherwise where would the trend start from?

Hashirama + Madara = Mokuton and Rinnegan

Ashura + Indra = Rinnegan

See the huge difference?

tobirama said that a special chakra sprouts in a uchiha's eyes because of hatred

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notice when sasuke uses a genjutsu he has a shadow silhouette of the sage

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that genjutsu even had a susano'o like figure

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and that the more hatred sasuke got the bigger susano'o did

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except this made sasuke blind so he had to get another ms making him have ems then he could use perfect susano'o
indra didn't need another set of eyes he's not a uchiha he represents the uchiha's top power before rinnegan
and life-force made mokuton and the white zetsu's grow hashi wasn't born with mokuton he was born with life-force of asura whiich is why he can do mokuton

 

[KingHashirama]

tobirama said that a special chakra sprouts in a uchiha's eyes because of hatred

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notice when sasuke uses a genjutsu he has a shadow silhouette of the sage

Spoiler

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that genjutsu even had a susano'o like figure

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and that the more hatred sasuke got the bigger susano'o did

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except this made sasuke blind so he had to get another ms making him have ems then he could use perfect susano'o
indra didn't need another set of eyes he's not a uchiha he represents the uchiha's top power before rinnegan
and life-force made mokuton and the white zetsu's grow hashi wasn't born with mokuton he was born with life-force of asura whiich is why he can do mokuton

But the problem here is Ashura himself didn't have Mokuton.. lol. Only person in NAruto history to possess mokuton is the man known as the Shodaime Hokage.. I'm pretty sure they would state it if he did. Not only that Ashura didn't even have SM either..

And Naruto is also ashura's will but he will be strongest of all by the end.. so are you still gonna claim he = Ashura, becaue he has his life force? You can't..

 

[Retsu]

Sorry but you seem to believe that I HAVE to provide proof. I am going with what i am given, and what i am given is drastically weaker than Madara and Hashirama..

No one in the current generation knows hardly anything about Rikudou.. but still a legend surpassing all.

But again i''m not seeing any reasoning from you.. what is the obvious thing? That Buddha itself solos both of them together ? Or the huge amount of ninjutsu experience gap? Or the fact Madara and Hashirama have been fighting in a war since they were little kids.. ?


And also, sadly no. Mokuton is a birth thing.. not something people can learn.

"2 power ups".. umm i recall him using Susanoo without his eyes.. while the older son needed his eyes. And having EMS doesn't really mean you unlock PS.. and on top of that Sasuke who will be the strongest of all the uchiha also had to get 2 powerups.. so by logic The older son somehow did have an EMS.. otherwise where would the trend start from?

Hashirama + Madara = Mokuton and Rinnegan

Ashura + Indra = Rinnegan

See the huge difference?

Sage is the strongest known character barring his mom, he said his eldest son inherited his good genes and chakra, and that later his youngest son unlocked that potential within himself to the point that he could fight on par with the older son.. the writing's on the wall, you just choose to ignore it. but it's obvious that the sons are>Hashi and Maddy

And ninjutsu mastery means squat, kakashi and Hiruzen know more jutsu than hashi, but in no way does that mean they can win against him.

 

[Draphsin]

ALL THE SENJU HAVE SAGE'S BODY.. the problem is to what extent?

ALL THE UCHIHA HAVE THE SAGE'S STRONG CHAKRA.. the problem is to what extent.?

Lol Obviously to a greater extent as their chakra can transmigrate.

And in the scan you provided the sage talks of himself.

& What does he say? He says that he is nothing but floating chakra that's travelling through generations, & what are indra & ashura's chakra doing? Sounds like the exact same thing to me.

And i'm sure Hashirama and Madara are the son's reincarnations.. but as I said, they are in fighting wise stronger than the sons.. And if they are the reincarnations, then that simply means Hashirama and Madara's chakra also continues, which is the same as NAruto and Sasuke's.

If they're the son's reincarnations then they can't possibly be stronger than them. Hashirama & madara possess the brothers' power so if you take that away from them then who's to say they'd be powerful at all? Their power came from indra & ashura, they only have a part of it as now it's most likely inside the next generation.

See what I'm saying? The sons have such powerful chakra that it still lives on in people making them powerful, and as for the bold that's not how it works, hashi's chakra is hashi's & it died with him & same goes for madara. What I'm saying is that their chakra is only a portion of indra & ashura's everlasting chakra that's currently possessing naruto & most likely sasuke.

Portrayal says the strongest Uchiha ever and the 2nd God of Shinobi , and the person who put down the juubi like it was nothing are vastly stronger. People who can do juubi level techniques are vastly stronger.

Who portrayed hashi & madara? Did the sage hype them? His chakra has been travelling through generations so it would make sense that he would notice their power if it was so terrifying. Hagoromo called his son "excellent" & their chakra still lives on, these facts put the sons on a higher tier than hashirama & madara who have only been praised by lesser shinobi.

How do you know that ashura & indra can't use juubi-level techniques?

Hmm yea non-jin Rikudou isn't portrayed to be the strongest.. its the Juubi jin that is portrayed to be the strongest..

Yet hagoromo's chakra is travelling through time, & he still managed to create the moon without the aid of the juubi's chakra.

And clear difference between Hashirama and Ashura.. is the fact Hashirama possesses the Juubi's body.

& Ashura didn't? I don't understand your assumptions, you have no idea what ashura possessed. Plus it's already established that yang chakra is needed in order for mokuton to grow & produce life, & who is the embodiment of yang chakra again? Oh yeah...

 

[Draphsin]

ALL THE SENJU HAVE SAGE'S BODY.. the problem is to what extent?

ALL THE UCHIHA HAVE THE SAGE'S STRONG CHAKRA.. the problem is to what extent.?

Lol Obviously to a greater extent as their chakra can transmigrate.

And in the scan you provided the sage talks of himself.

& What does he say? He says that he is nothing but floating chakra that's travelling through generations, & what are indra & ashura's chakra doing? Sounds like the exact same thing to me.

And i'm sure Hashirama and Madara are the son's reincarnations.. but as I said, they are in fighting wise stronger than the sons.. And if they are the reincarnations, then that simply means Hashirama and Madara's chakra also continues, which is the same as NAruto and Sasuke's.

If they're the son's reincarnations then they can't possibly be stronger than them. Hashirama & madara possess the brothers' power so if you take that away from them then who's to say they'd be powerful at all? Their power came from indra & ashura, they only have a part of it as now it's most likely inside the next generation.

See what I'm saying? The sons have such powerful chakra that it still lives on in people making them powerful, and as for the bold that's not how it works, hashi's chakra is hashi's & it died with him & same goes for madara. What I'm saying is that their chakra is only a portion of indra & ashura's everlasting chakra that's currently possessing naruto & most likely sasuke.

Portrayal says the strongest Uchiha ever and the 2nd God of Shinobi , and the person who put down the juubi like it was nothing are vastly stronger. People who can do juubi level techniques are vastly stronger.

Who portrayed hashi & madara? Did the sage hype them? His chakra has been travelling through generations so it would make sense that he would notice their power if it was so terrifying. Hagoromo called his son "excellent" & their chakra still lives on, these facts put the sons on a higher tier than hashirama & madara who have only been praised by lesser shinobi.

How do you know that ashura & indra can't use juubi-level techniques?

Hmm yea non-jin Rikudou isn't portrayed to be the strongest.. its the Juubi jin that is portrayed to be the strongest..

Yet hagoromo's chakra is travelling through time, & he still managed to create the moon without the aid of the juubi's chakra.

And clear difference between Hashirama and Ashura.. is the fact Hashirama possesses the Juubi's body.

& Ashura didn't? I don't understand your assumptions, you have no idea what ashura possessed. Plus it's already established that yang chakra is needed in order for mokuton to grow & produce life, & who is the embodiment of yang chakra again? Oh yeah...

 

[KingHashirama]

Lol Obviously to a greater extent as their chakra can transmigrate.



& What does he say? He says that he is nothing but floating chakra that's travelling through generations, & what are indra & ashura's chakra doing? Sounds like the exact same thing to me.



If they're the son's reincarnations then they can't possibly be stronger than them. Hashirama & madara possess the brothers' power so if you take that away from them then who's to say they'd be powerful at all? Their power came from indra & ashura, they only have a part of it as now it's most likely inside the next generation.

See what I'm saying? The sons have such powerful chakra that it still lives on in people making them powerful, and as for the bold that's not how it works, hashi's chakra is hashi's & it died with him & same goes for madara. What I'm saying is that their chakra is only a portion of indra & ashura's everlasting chakra that's currently possessing naruto & most likely sasuke.



Who portrayed hashi & madara? Did the sage hype them? His chakra has been travelling through generations so it would make sense that he would notice their power if it was so terrifying. Hagoromo called his son "excellent" & their chakra still lives on, these facts put the sons on a higher tier than hashirama & madara who have only been praised by lesser shinobi.

How do you know that ashura & indra can't use juubi-level techniques?



Yet hagoromo's chakra is travelling through time, & he still managed to create the moon without the aid of the juubi's chakra.



& Ashura didn't? I don't understand your assumptions, you have no idea what ashura possessed. Plus it's already established that yang chakra is needed in order for mokuton to grow & produce life, & who is the embodiment of yang chakra again? Oh yeah...

I'll counter the rest of your argument when i comeback.. But for you to think on:

-Hashirama
- Madara
-Rinnegan + Mokuton Obito

Are all stronger than the sons.. (Maybe not Obito). But he is on their level.

 

[Draphsin]

I'll counter the rest of your argument when i comeback.. But for you to think on:

-Hashirama
- Madara
-Rinnegan + Mokuton Obito

Are all stronger than the sons.. (Maybe not Obito). But he is on their level.

Their chakra isn't living on after death so no they aren't.

 

[End of Days]

The genetics matter when someone is deriving their power from their genes

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The Sage's blood thinned over time, clear indication of the weakening of power

btw arent you the one who used to claim older generation>new generation in just about every thread

what happened? chapter seems to have rustled your jimmies

 

[Cabbage]

Something to think about here:

During the age of Hagoromo, magnet release didn't exist, edo tensei didn't exist, flying thunder god didn't exist, kirin didn't exist, and so on and so forth. This was merely the beginning of the age of ninjutsu, so thus many of the abilities the current generation of shinobi take for granted would not exist in this time, meaning that they would have a difficult time countering many of these techniques, unlike, say, Madara, as Madara did live in the time when nearly all of these techniques were already in use, and thus developed ways to counter them. Now, if the sons have any advantage, it's definitely that they would have significantly larger chakra pools than any living shinobi, rivaling those of the jinchuuriki, as they were the sons of Hagoromo, thus I find it safe to say this. Now, are they stronger than Hashirama and Madara? That's pretty much impossible to say until we actually see them fight...

 

[Ultimateone]

first of all we have not seen these 2 fight yet. even still everything that we have learned from this recent chapter portrays them as beats. indra was considered by his father, the sage, to be a genius. ashura through hard work was able to match his brother. if you are getting praised by the true god of shinobi then you are powerful, plain and simple. now as far as their being more ninjutsu and such that didn't exist back then existing now probably means less than you think. they probably creating all kinds of techniques, we still don't really know what ninshuu really is as it being just the transfer of feelings makes no sense as they trained a long time to master it and naruto did it in a day. they probably have techniques that have been lost throughout time. the chakra these two had was more potent than in anybody from the generations to come, because whether you like it or not genetics play a huge role in this manga. while the sage did say that just because you have powerful parents doesn't mean the child will be powerful doesn't really go for his children. indra is obvious and doesn't need me to explain, but it extends to Ashura as well. while ashura may not be as talented as his brother, he still possessed the potential as his brother which he in fact reached to to much laboring. that was more so what the sage was trying to get across.

the point being that they can't be as powerful as those brothers. the sage and his brother were not as powerful as their mother because there chakra was less potent thinks to it being degraded by their fatheres genes. thats the same thing that would happen to the lineage of the sons as it mixes with weaker individuals throughout the ages. madara and hashi, even for how powerful they are, are product of this mixture of "lesser" individuals. but still before we declare who is stronger than who, can we at least see these two fight please?

 

[Lightbringer]

How are the sons shown to be not as powerful as Madara and Hashirama when they barely had any screentime?


The sons existed thousands of years before present day naruto and not all history was recorded. Hagaromo's brother was never in legend, yet he helped seal half the Juubi's power into himself. So that doesn't mean he's weak just because he was never mentioned in history.


Madara's knowledge of the sons originated from the tablet and I'm pretty sure the tablet only states that they were the ancestors of the two clans, they were the sons of the sage, and that they fought against each other, etc. There's no reason to describe their power. They were also destroyed in their war against each other, so they didn't really have significant feats that would ripple throughout the generations like creating the moon.



The tablet talks about history and the historical feat of Hagoromo defeating the Juubi and creating the moon....so obviously his power is the only one that matters, not his sons. That doesn't mean his sons weren't stronger than Madara and Hashirama.



If Naruto is the reincarnation of Ashura, then Ashura in the past would have been equally if not stronger than current day Naruto since they share the same qualities....and like you stated, Naruto by the end of the manga will be the strongest....so wouldn't that suggest that Ashura was powerful? I think so.

 

[chaos control]

1. You are baseless in saying that Hashirama and Madara have more battle experience. Indra and Ashura were the ones who started that very war that dominated Hashirama and Madara's childhoods. Plus, the sons may have done some fighting even before this war. We also don't know how long the sons lasted in the war. Therefore they could have more battle experience than Hashirama and Madara. On the other hand, they might not. You can't assume that they do and you can't assume that they don't before the manga gives us any clear indicators. This is why your premise that Hashirama and Madara have more experience is a fallacy until further notice by Kishi.

2. Furthermore, the abilities that we have seen from the sons in that one panel alone are potentially enough to show that the sons can potentially rival Hashirama and EMS Madara. Look at the black balls that Ashura was holding. Those could have been mini bijuu bombs or they could have been onmyodon balls. If those were onmyodon balls, then Ashura could simply negate something like perfect susanoo or destroy the shinsusenju and cause massive explosions. Indra's susanoo was also clearly perfect susanoo which means that he could most likely at least match EMS Madara.

Of course this could all be debunked by further manga evidence, but we can't really assume that they are weaker than the valley of end combatants when they have shown these abilities and when we have seen so little of them. Spouting fallacy like "Hashirama and Madara have more battle experience" when Kishi has not given us a scale of how much the sons fought, is like saying that one 16 year old has more driving skill/experience than another 16 year old when you don't even know when that 2nd 16 year old got his liscense and you've never actually seen him drive.

 

[Sennin of Logic]

Obito disagrees with you.

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"Even though their blood thinned." Hmmmmm. Also, if you notice, Indra had no way of getting EMS, yet has Perfect Susanoo, so it's obvious that, at the very least, the Uchiha's weakened since no MS user can access EMS. The only question is if Hashirama and Madara are exceptional enough to overcome the weakened potential.

 

[Sageflash]

RS hyped his sons up pretty well. Indra was a genius who got all of RS's strong chakra genes, and Ashura became his equal. Plus, it's nigh impossible to gauge since they don't have any feats.

 

[~Sky~]

- They are the Sage's sons.. yeaaaa sadly that is hardly relevant in the manga, where prodigies like Naruto and Hashirama are born to weak parents (atleast weak compared to their child).

Stopped right here. The words of the manga directly disagree with you on Naruto's account. For goodness sake.

Also, I find it quite ironic that you're asking people to not contradict the manga when you freely contradicted it in your thread.

 

[KingHashirama]

Stopped right here. The words of the manga directly disagree with you on Naruto's account. For goodness sake.

Also, I find it quite ironic that you're asking people to not contradict the manga when you freely contradicted it in your thread.

Manga =/= character statement, that was Rikudou's opinion on Naruto. However, manga shows Naruto > Sasuke in terms of genius.

So i'm gonna go with the showcasing rather than a character's opinion, who failed to realize that even his younger son had talent in gathering people together.

1. You are baseless in saying that Hashirama and Madara have more battle experience. Indra and Ashura were the ones who started that very war that dominated Hashirama and Madara's childhoods. Plus, the sons may have done some fighting even before this war. We also don't know how long the sons lasted in the war. Therefore they could have more battle experience than Hashirama and Madara. On the other hand, they might not. You can't assume that they do and you can't assume that they don't before the manga gives us any clear indicators. This is why your premise that Hashirama and Madara have more experience is a fallacy until further notice by Kishi.

2. Furthermore, the abilities that we have seen from the sons in that one panel alone are potentially enough to show that the sons can potentially rival Hashirama and EMS Madara. Look at the black balls that Ashura was holding. Those could have been mini bijuu bombs or they could have been onmyodon balls. If those were onmyodon balls, then Ashura could simply negate something like perfect susanoo or destroy the shinsusenju and cause massive explosions. Indra's susanoo was also clearly perfect susanoo which means that he could most likely at least match EMS Madara.

Of course this could all be debunked by further manga evidence, but we can't really assume that they are weaker than the valley of end combatants when they have shown these abilities and when we have seen so little of them. Spouting fallacy like "Hashirama and Madara have more battle experience" when Kishi has not given us a scale of how much the sons fought, is like saying that one 16 year old has more driving skill/experience than another 16 year old when you don't even know when that 2nd 16 year old got his liscense and you've never actually seen him drive.

1. They started the war when they were adults. . They hardly had any ninjutsu... holy sh*t you failed to use logic here bro.

2. Sorry, but you do realize the younger son's technique is like an ant in front of Hashirama's true power right? And inmyodon will simply do the affect of tbb.. Hashirama will simply create new mokuton.. nothing special mate. And yea my point exactly none of their descedents commented on their power.. but did so on their fathers.. rofl.

And we can stated they are weaker, unless manga states or shows they are stronger..

How are the sons shown to be not as powerful as Madara and Hashirama when they barely had any screentime?


The sons existed thousands of years before present day naruto and not all history was recorded. Hagaromo's brother was never in legend, yet he helped seal half the Juubi's power into himself. So that doesn't mean he's weak just because he was never mentioned in history.


Madara's knowledge of the sons originated from the tablet and I'm pretty sure the tablet only states that they were the ancestors of the two clans, they were the sons of the sage, and that they fought against each other, etc. There's no reason to describe their power. They were also destroyed in their war against each other, so they didn't really have significant feats that would ripple throughout the generations like creating the moon.



The tablet talks about history and the historical feat of Hagoromo defeating the Juubi and creating the moon....so obviously his power is the only one that matters, not his sons. That doesn't mean his sons weren't stronger than Madara and Hashirama.



If Naruto is the reincarnation of Ashura, then Ashura in the past would have been equally if not stronger than current day Naruto since they share the same qualities....and like you stated, Naruto by the end of the manga will be the strongest....so wouldn't that suggest that Ashura was powerful? I think so.

@Bold, so how exactly are they powerful..?

And did i say they wasn't powerful? lol...I said they ain't on Hashirama and Madara's levels.

You as a Madara fan should know Madara's power.. yet you are here underrating him.

The genetics matter when someone is deriving their power from their genes

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The Sage's blood thinned over time, clear indication of the weakening of power

btw arent you the one who used to claim older generation>new generation in just about every thread

what happened? chapter seems to have rustled your jimmies

Yet the VOTE legends defy that very logic you are trying to institute. Seems like your jimmies have been rustled that the sons ain't stronger than them. ^_^.

And you do realize when i claimed that Older generation > Newer generation, I didn't do it from a simple belief but due to the times..

People born in war are superior to those who are not born in war.. Its a logical fact.

Rikudou and his bro were superior to the sons. Hashirama and Madara were superior to the current ninja.

 

[~Sky~]

Manga =/= character statement, that was Rikudou's opinion on Naruto. However, manga shows Naruto > Sasuke in terms of genius.

So i'm gonna go with the showcasing rather than a character's opinion, who failed to realize that even his younger son had talent in gathering people together.

I don't care one bit KH. Naruto flat out agreed with the Sage's opinion on the matter.

 

[Bogard]

Older generation > New generation

Indra/Ashura > Madara/Hashirama

Deal with it?

 

[Lightbringer]

@Bold, so how exactly are they powerful..?

And did i say they wasn't powerful? lol...I said they ain't on Hashirama and Madara's levels.

You as a Madara fan should know Madara's power.. yet you are here underrating him.

You're saying you can judge them as weaker than both Madara and Hashirama from one panel.....that doesn't make sense

You honestly believe I say all those things about Madara being powerful because he's my favorite? Well I don't, and I don't think EMS Madara is more powerful than Indra.