LeafSpirit 20
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Exactly!!!! If the man is still wearing his mask it means that he wants his identity a secret... Of course he is not going to say I had it since birth...
Final (We hope) Countdown. Tobi ID theories and discsussions
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FizzyDrink
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You should both look at my previous comment on this thread. It's the timeline you were looking for Yami that disproves the Tobito theory.
katandthehat
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#1 There's 1 important fact that blows a hole in the Tobi is Obito theory, which is Tobi is old. He takes his mask off for Sasuke and in the piece that you can see he has eyes like Danzo. Also in his fight with Konan his mask is blown off and you can see his face besides the mouth and jaw
#2 If Madara Uchiha knows who he is then he must have lived during Madara's time, however he has Senju DNA from Hashirama (1st hokage) which has allowed him to live so long. Whoever this person is, he's younger than Hashirama and Madara, but old enough to have had personal contact with them.
#3 Its a known fact that all the living Uchiha that were affiliated with Konoha after the 3rd ninja war were killed. Itachi/Sasuke's parents were missing during the Kyuubi's attack on the leaf, but they aren't candidates because the manga shows Itachi slaying them, however they must be related somehow to Tobi because Tobi was responsible for that attack.
#4 This leaves the possible candidates for Tobi as an Uchiha from the 1st shinobi war
By the time the 2nd shinobi war broke out, Hiruzen was already Hokage and the 3 legendary sannin were adults. I can conclude that anyone from this period is too young to be Tobi
#5 In my own opinion, someone with extensive knowledge of jinchuriki's and fuinjutsu but who comes from a period after the 5 shinobi villages were formed would have to be kage level ninja as Tobi has demonstrated he is. I'm not sure Tobi is an Uchiha, as he had a need for sharingan. IF Tobi is blood related to Uchiha he is almost certainly Madara's brother Izuna because he would have to be kage level and have a need for sharingan and be old. Tobi says many times that he only has a fraction of his true power(Izuna was claimed to have been Madara's equal in every way), Obito was already dead by the time Minato was Hokage which means Izuna could have taken Obito's eye by the time he met with Minato during the kyuubi attack on Konoha.
#6 Doing a bit of research I also discovered that natural sharingan users can deactivate them and return to normal eyes, Kakashi and every other sharingan implant have their eyes permanently activated. Nagato always had rinnegan eyes which means they aren't natural to him and recent events have proven that the Rinnegan is an advanced dojutsu of the sharingan. So when Madara died, Izuna(tobi) implanted the rinnegan in Nagato, his own eyes are both implanted because the sharingan never deactivates which coincides with him giving his eyes to Madara.
What doesn't add up is why? Izuna was loyal to Konoha, siding against Madara when he wanted to rise against the Senju after Konoha's formation. So why would he then assist in destroying his own clan and plotting to destroy Konoha itself.
Tell me what you think of my Izuna theory? I'll see if I can find rebuttals for any holes you find
#2 If Madara Uchiha knows who he is then he must have lived during Madara's time, however he has Senju DNA from Hashirama (1st hokage) which has allowed him to live so long. Whoever this person is, he's younger than Hashirama and Madara, but old enough to have had personal contact with them.
#3 Its a known fact that all the living Uchiha that were affiliated with Konoha after the 3rd ninja war were killed. Itachi/Sasuke's parents were missing during the Kyuubi's attack on the leaf, but they aren't candidates because the manga shows Itachi slaying them, however they must be related somehow to Tobi because Tobi was responsible for that attack.
#4 This leaves the possible candidates for Tobi as an Uchiha from the 1st shinobi war
By the time the 2nd shinobi war broke out, Hiruzen was already Hokage and the 3 legendary sannin were adults. I can conclude that anyone from this period is too young to be Tobi
#5 In my own opinion, someone with extensive knowledge of jinchuriki's and fuinjutsu but who comes from a period after the 5 shinobi villages were formed would have to be kage level ninja as Tobi has demonstrated he is. I'm not sure Tobi is an Uchiha, as he had a need for sharingan. IF Tobi is blood related to Uchiha he is almost certainly Madara's brother Izuna because he would have to be kage level and have a need for sharingan and be old. Tobi says many times that he only has a fraction of his true power(Izuna was claimed to have been Madara's equal in every way), Obito was already dead by the time Minato was Hokage which means Izuna could have taken Obito's eye by the time he met with Minato during the kyuubi attack on Konoha.
#6 Doing a bit of research I also discovered that natural sharingan users can deactivate them and return to normal eyes, Kakashi and every other sharingan implant have their eyes permanently activated. Nagato always had rinnegan eyes which means they aren't natural to him and recent events have proven that the Rinnegan is an advanced dojutsu of the sharingan. So when Madara died, Izuna(tobi) implanted the rinnegan in Nagato, his own eyes are both implanted because the sharingan never deactivates which coincides with him giving his eyes to Madara.
What doesn't add up is why? Izuna was loyal to Konoha, siding against Madara when he wanted to rise against the Senju after Konoha's formation. So why would he then assist in destroying his own clan and plotting to destroy Konoha itself.
Tell me what you think of my Izuna theory? I'll see if I can find rebuttals for any holes you find
It is no good using the "too old" argument to take down the theory of who Tobi is. "Too young" is ok. But too old is not. People can be ressurected. I hate it when I read "But Izuna died!" so what? We haven't seen him being edo-tenseied and so he is a likely candidate. Same goes for Obito but I think in his case the "too young" applies. The ones where "too old" can't apply are also the SO6P and the Uchiha ancestor. They are also possible candidates for Tobi. We have not seen them ressurected and afterwards sealed into the death god. Ressurected either through the Tobirama technique or through the rinnegan technique. Age in the sense that somebody is too old just makes no sense. We have Madara on the battlefield and he is not old. Same way we can have Izuna (the most likely candidate), Kagami, SO6P (it would be cool. The guy lost his faith. Was good at first but then just lost it. However, I do know that Tobi's "I am the third" kinda knocks that one down) or his elder son all fit nicely. Obito was too young during the fox attack and the first appearence of Tobi. The eye proves nothing. They switch and trade them like cards.
There is also the mystery of Tobi's Zetsu limbs. My theory is that Izuna was revived by Madara through the Rinnegan and continued in his name. During that time he continued getting old because unlike the edo tensei, when the samsara (or whatever, that rinnegan revival technique is used) the person might get too old. But it is strange that if we think that the fox attack was the first appearence of Tobi, then why did he already have the Zetsu limb(s)?
Another question is: why didn't Tobi (if Izuna or whoever, if working together with Madara) resurrect Madara? Why wait? Was the plan to have Madara resurrected by Nagato after the Jubbi is reconstructed? And why involve Nagato? So much to still be found out...
The only thing I basically want to say is that people need to stop with two things: The "his eye(s)" argument and the "too old"/"dead" argument. Eyes can be traded, and dead people (who would be old if just continued living without interrupting) can be resurrected in two ways and so the timeline is fine.
There is also the mystery of Tobi's Zetsu limbs. My theory is that Izuna was revived by Madara through the Rinnegan and continued in his name. During that time he continued getting old because unlike the edo tensei, when the samsara (or whatever, that rinnegan revival technique is used) the person might get too old. But it is strange that if we think that the fox attack was the first appearence of Tobi, then why did he already have the Zetsu limb(s)?
Another question is: why didn't Tobi (if Izuna or whoever, if working together with Madara) resurrect Madara? Why wait? Was the plan to have Madara resurrected by Nagato after the Jubbi is reconstructed? And why involve Nagato? So much to still be found out...
The only thing I basically want to say is that people need to stop with two things: The "his eye(s)" argument and the "too old"/"dead" argument. Eyes can be traded, and dead people (who would be old if just continued living without interrupting) can be resurrected in two ways and so the timeline is fine.
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XMrLiNdOrX
Active member
*Spoiler* Tobi statement
ok so if u read the manga yet you notice that tobi says he wants to create a world where heroes dont make pathetic excuses in front of graves.
so i believe that tobi was obviously watching over kakashi wen he visits someones grave....(obito's) so what other reason would he be at obito's grave unless he was him or his father or someone close???? idk what you guys think??
ok so if u read the manga yet you notice that tobi says he wants to create a world where heroes dont make pathetic excuses in front of graves.
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so i believe that tobi was obviously watching over kakashi wen he visits someones grave....(obito's) so what other reason would he be at obito's grave unless he was him or his father or someone close???? idk what you guys think??
Hattake Ryuzaki
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Re: *Spoiler* Tobi statement
hes not obito obito is dead could be hes a relative of obitos though
hes not obito obito is dead could be hes a relative of obitos though
ChuckNorris2
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Re: *Spoiler* Tobi statement
Well tobi definitly isn't obito but I guess he could be someone close you never know with Kishi
Well tobi definitly isn't obito but I guess he could be someone close you never know with Kishi
Re: *Spoiler* Tobi statement
Plothole Number 1: Tobi’s Power Level (chapters 500-504).
There is no way Obito could turn into an alpha dog shinobi who mastered S/T phasing and teleportation within a 1-2 year time frame. At 15 years old? No way... There is also no way Obito would know how to extract the Kyuubi, hypnotize it, control it like a puppet, and then summon it wherever the hell he wants to. And all of this is supposed to have happened 1-2 years after Obito supposedly died? That’s just not feasible.
Plothole Number 2: Kyuubi recognised Tobi (chapter 501 page 8).
The Kyuubi actually recognises Tobi and possibly knows who he is. If THAT doesn’t convince you, nothing will. The Kyuubi made a direct transfer from being sealed into Mito to being sealed into Kushina, so there is a fundamental contradiction for the Kyuubi to recognise anyone in the outside world when it was sealed for all that time. If the Kyuubi actually recognised Tobi, it means Tobi has to be someone who was alive during Hashirama/Madara’s generation.
Plothole Number 3: This is HIS doing (chapter 560 page 2).
"This is HIS doing." That means Madara knows exactly who Tobi is, but there is no way Madara could have worked with Obito because Madara had died already. We know this because by the time Nagato gets Madara's Rinnegan from Tobi, Madara is officially dead - "I awakened these eyes shortly before my death." (chapter 560 page 15). This is important because Nagato is older than Minato, and Minato is older than Obito.
Plothole Number 4: Nagato is much older than Obito.
Why is this important? Because Tobi GAVE Nagato the Rinnegan. In other words, it is impossible for Obito to have given kid Nagato the Rinnegan because Obito is much younger than Nagato.
Plothole Number 1: Tobi’s Power Level (chapters 500-504).
There is no way Obito could turn into an alpha dog shinobi who mastered S/T phasing and teleportation within a 1-2 year time frame. At 15 years old? No way... There is also no way Obito would know how to extract the Kyuubi, hypnotize it, control it like a puppet, and then summon it wherever the hell he wants to. And all of this is supposed to have happened 1-2 years after Obito supposedly died? That’s just not feasible.
Plothole Number 2: Kyuubi recognised Tobi (chapter 501 page 8).
The Kyuubi actually recognises Tobi and possibly knows who he is. If THAT doesn’t convince you, nothing will. The Kyuubi made a direct transfer from being sealed into Mito to being sealed into Kushina, so there is a fundamental contradiction for the Kyuubi to recognise anyone in the outside world when it was sealed for all that time. If the Kyuubi actually recognised Tobi, it means Tobi has to be someone who was alive during Hashirama/Madara’s generation.
Plothole Number 3: This is HIS doing (chapter 560 page 2).
"This is HIS doing." That means Madara knows exactly who Tobi is, but there is no way Madara could have worked with Obito because Madara had died already. We know this because by the time Nagato gets Madara's Rinnegan from Tobi, Madara is officially dead - "I awakened these eyes shortly before my death." (chapter 560 page 15). This is important because Nagato is older than Minato, and Minato is older than Obito.
Plothole Number 4: Nagato is much older than Obito.
Why is this important? Because Tobi GAVE Nagato the Rinnegan. In other words, it is impossible for Obito to have given kid Nagato the Rinnegan because Obito is much younger than Nagato.
Re: *Spoiler* Tobi statement
many heroes have been making 'pathetic excuses in front of graves', Nagato also did and Tobi knew Nagato and Yahiko. The reason Nagato's grave did not show, or Yahiko's, is because Tobi spoke to Kakashi and Kakashi's memory was about Obito or Rin.
many heroes have been making 'pathetic excuses in front of graves', Nagato also did and Tobi knew Nagato and Yahiko. The reason Nagato's grave did not show, or Yahiko's, is because Tobi spoke to Kakashi and Kakashi's memory was about Obito or Rin.
Bboyinsayn
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Re: *Spoiler* Tobi statement
You guys make up your own theories and stories. It's not your story guys, its Kishi's story. Just wait till we see who Tobi really is, you dont need to be all mad and try to prove someone wrong. That's not gonna help you. So stfu, and just wait till Kishi trolls us all.
You guys make up your own theories and stories. It's not your story guys, its Kishi's story. Just wait till we see who Tobi really is, you dont need to be all mad and try to prove someone wrong. That's not gonna help you. So stfu, and just wait till Kishi trolls us all.
a sharingan is a sharingan.....
saw danzo's collection dint you?
even tobi had a huge shelf full of sharingans if im not mistaken. we see that when he tries to extract shisui's eye from danzo's dead body
The way I see it, Madara is dead, officially dead since he's been edo tensei'd.
If madara awakened the Rinnegan just before his death, then as we know his body would have been collected by Konoha, at at least by the Uchiha clan as is tradition in the ninja world. It doesnt matter whether the plan was to revive Madara with "Rinne Tensei" or not because that plan failed. It doesn't make any sense to implant the Rinnegan into a child who can't use their full powers when there are available adults to implant them into. I don't believe Izuna really died, or if he did he was raised from the dead by Madara once he unlocked the Rinnegan. Its a fact that Tobi/Izuna has a large collection of sharingan, which I believe was part of his motive to have the Uchiha killed off, along with revenge. Since Tobi has the weird zetsu body thing, that leads me to believe he's survived beyond Hashirama's time which is why he's old. Rinne Tensei brings people back as they were, full flesh and blood. IF Madara revived Izuna he would have had to live many years to see Hashirama die and obtain his DNA. Remember Orochimaru used to be a member of Akatsuki and implanted Senju DNA in Danzo before he ever left ROOT to join Akatsuki. Once he was in Akatsuki he partnered with Sasori until Itachi defected Konoha. This time period is from 12+ years before the start of the manga somewhat around the time Minato becomes Hokage, until the Uchiha Clan Massacre which is around 5 years before the start of the manga. Basically it fits, Oro was old enough to have given Izuna some Senju DNA and create Zetsu during his tenure with Akatsuki. It also explains why Tobi looks older under his mask since he lived many years before Oro join akatsuki.
I wish we knew who Tsunade's parents were, it would fill a huge gap in the timeline, but from what I can gather when Orochimaru defected, Hiruzen was ending his tenure as Hokage naming Minato the new Hokage after the third war ended. The first 2 hokages died in the 1st war, Hiruzen led Konoha thru 2 more wars and there was a 20 year gap between the 1st and 2nd war
(A side note, how powerful was Itachi really? as a teenager he easily defeated oro who is 30 or 40yrs older than him and a sage on top of that)
first of, sorry for editing your post, just wanted to make it a bit smaller for practical reasons.
as far as the above two quotes are concerned it seems that you are contradicting yourself a little bit. in the first part when you are trying to rule out all the possible candidates, you claim there is some sort of logic in the manga based on what we know and can understand, but in the second quote you go on and claim that logic has been disproved many times in the manga... which one is it?
it's pretty obvious he is using Obito's eye, but Kishi had also gone to great lengths to present Tobi as Madara and he hasn't disproved that either. though, i do agree that he is heavily hinting at Tobi got Obito's eye. imo Kishi will not risk badly trolling, permanently dividing and possibly losing part of his fanbase over a character's ID. so, I am not expecting anything radical for Tobi.
really, why...? there is a pretty firm timeline about Tobi and he seems to have been around for some time to be 'too old' to be some people and 'too young' to be other people.
dude, even though it appears otherwise due to Kabuto's brilliant idea... nobody actually spams edo tensei and even more so rinne tensei in the manga. apart from Orochimaru and Kabuto, I can't recall anyone else shown using that technique (we know of Tobirama, but he was not shown in the manga) and only Nagato used ONCE rinne tensei. advanced techniques are not often used and usually not a lot of people know how to perform them.
another thing to keep in mind is that according to Nagato rinne tensei has to be performed within a time limit after the person died, not just any time. that regarding the Izuna theory. in order for Madara to bring his brother back via rinne tensei he would have to have the VERY least a living part of Izuna and as Madara awoke the rinnegan after his final battle against Hashirama and shortly before he died, the time frame moves very far away from a living Izuna or living parts of his chakra or anything that could have preserved him. Madara even admitted about his brother's death and was very pissed about it, even almost a century later!
we also know that Kabuto brought back Madara as he was in his prime and even stronger, meaning Kabuto did a few twiches here and there. Madara is not a good edo tensei example as he is not your typical edo tensei.
as far as why wait for Nagato to grow and all of that, most likely Nagato was a good candidate and he had the chakra necessary to both preserve the eyes and use them. Tobi might not have as much chakra. and imo he doesn't. said it before, but why not repeat it: Tobi could simply be a 'nobody' an artificial person, like Zetsu, made from Madara's chakra and Hashirama's DNA hence his compatibility with the tree grown from Hashirama's DNA... it's rather hard to imagine that anyone who loses an arm can just waltz right in and grow and take a new limb.
but i do agree that people trade eyes like cards, as you said.
Guardian of the Rain
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thesurvivor
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