Ending the Kisame vs Jiraiya debate

[EvilDisaster]

While your argument was good Blaze, i think it was pretty biased.

 

[Naruto N. Uzumaki]

like i said j man is smarter then kisame has more justsu then kisame and he has giant toads summing if he needs them to by him some time just like he did to the 3 paths j man will win and his senjustu chakra>> his sword Samehada and that argument will apply to every one so kisame>itachi


plus u forget allot of j-man justsu

 

[Baka Sennin]

good argument. personally I think Kisame is the perfect matchup for the large chakra type like Jiraiya and Naruto. He steals their chakra to heal himself, and has a level of durability and chakra similar to their own. I daresay he's give Jiraiya more trouble than Itachi would.

although, Jiraiya does have fire nature which Samehada hates. His oil techniques, and that lava tech can be handy to overcome the element disadvantage of water>fire, and destroy any bodies of water which kisame summons. also, earth>water and jiraiya has hell swamp. he said that due to tsunade drugging him, he was only able to summon a tiny swamp, yet it was large enough to drown both of those massive snakes. so Jiraiya does have a fairly good chance of winning this, i'd say 6/10 times he'd come out on top.

you can enter sm with little chakra though, naruto has managed it vs pain, and a few times in the war too. to LEARN sm you need a massive chakra base because it's easy to be overwhelmed by sage chakra, however once you learn how to collect it in the right proportions it's not an issue how much chakra you have. although jiraiya doesnt have perfect sage mode, so he can have troubles when he's depleted.

 

[MinatoFLASH]

Damn, long wall Blaze :noc:. You can never win the argument as long as kisame admitted inferiority ( we and other went over this a million times, also in the other thread).

my views on the battle between Base Jiraiya and Kisame(feats).


I will tell how many different ways Base Jiraiya can make shark dishes….

First off, you can’t compare Kisame’s strength and other animals to Gamabunta (besides other boss summons). Gamabunta is a boss summon who is not only Gigantic but also incredible agile and durable. His feats against Shukaka should speak for itself. He tanked Shukaku’s (a tailed beast) Wind release: Drilling Air bullet, which had previously destroyed the forrest and he confidently proclaimed that he could tank a couple more.His water release: Gunshot rivaled the tailed beast bomb, and he is able to shoot them one after the other (he can increase the damage depending on the chakra he puts in them), plus it doesn’t even need a water source so nothing Kisame can throw at him will be able to defeat this monster. Hell, he could even make things difficult for Kisame by blasting oil into the water. Gamabunta managed to hold down the strongest Kyuubi albeit for a moment, so holding Kisame would not be an issue at all, water or not (also incredible leaping abilities so he can also support Jiraiya with the navy assualt ).His sword is also big enough to cut pretty much anything it sets its eyes on.Then imagine Gamaken and Gamahiro also entering the battle….wait.. Forget about them... What about ma and pa would can still perform their epic steel breaking combos .


Nobody can honestly argue that Jiraiya didn’t manage to pull off an incredible speed-feat against Kisame (with a woman on his back clearly making things harder for him).He succeeded in pulling off the whole contract/blood thing before Kisame managed to chop of Naruto’s leg. Jiraiya is clearly faster, we don’t where in the 5 scale he is, plus Kisame struggled against one of the minor toads.

Also bad argument, in a vs battle, to proclaim that shinibo only uses their summons against other summons. The fact is it can be used offensively and effectively against anybody and everybody. Minato effectively hold down the Kyuubi, and Jiraiya can perform it in an instant right above the target and the force alone would break Kisame in two.Kisame’s durability feats will probably allow him to survive however not before Jiraiya can finish him off with a Odama rasengan (forrest-busting tech). This much can’t be disputed.

Spoiler

NINJUTSU; Kuchiyose: Yatai Kuzushi no jutsu (Summoning: Cargo Shattering technique*)
User: Jiraiya
Offensive; Close, Medium, Long ranges; Rank: B

Main text

A destructive dive that takes full advantage of a giant Toad's bodily mass! The strength of the fall varies depending on the caster. In the case of someone like Jiraiya from the Sannin, the summon can be performed in an instant right above the target, further adding the great gravitational force of a good several hundred meters high dive to the Toad's own weight!!

Captions

-All strategies are meaningless! Such is the incomparably hard pressure of the Toad's abdomen!!

-The groundbreaking fall of the giant Toad!

Picture comment

-The earth-crawling python is efficiently attacked from above! Caught into the fall of the giant Toad, it cannot perform any technique, in spite of its characteristically sharp spirit..

Second off, You are also forgetting Jiraiya’s huge chakra reserve which would give him the option to create multiple clones (not to mention multiple summons) which would nullify your perceived notion regarding Jiraiya’s inability to move. Those clones and/summons would fight Kisame evenly- more importantly they will be able to keep the distance which would give him plenty of time to absorb natural energy. Kisame absorbed Aoba’s chakra and he tried to do the same with Gai i.e. Kisame would, quietly, say goodbye and immediately turn into a statue and that would be a wrap.

Kisame is a perfect jinchuuriki hunter because he can, via samahada, eat up chakra shrouds’ like kids eat candy. However Jiraiya lacks the shroud which means Kisame would have to get up and close to perform his magic trick. Jiraiya is a midrange fighter so he could easily keep the distance (until he absorbed the necessary senjutsu). His hair jutsu is haxxed because he can send off a large quantity of them and he only needs one to connect for Kisame since to crumble. Kisame would regenerate however the game would continue and Jiraiya would only need one opening to overwhelm kisame, by the way, who he also outclasses when it comes to intelligenc. Lets us not forget that Bee’s chakra infused pencil would have penetrated Kisame’s defenses.Direct/immediate life-threatening techniques can still obliterate Kisame..


Water dome (by far kisame’s most dangerous technique).

This massive technique would overwhelm most people but Jiraiya possesses the perfect counters to render it useless:

Jiraiya would not only drown since he could easily summon a guard toad (while having the other summons fighting alongside with him) and go inside its stomach, but he can also mask his chakra inside of it. Jiraiya would then wait for Kisame to attack and command the toad guard to grap/teleport Kisame in an instant which would result in him getting KTFO. The acid would tear apart Kisame and there’s nothing he could do about it, no regeneration, no nothing.This is haxxed ability where, at the contractor’s command, it is possible to exit and or enter in an instant. If the opponent is too strong (not in this case far from it) he could pull a Minato an reverse summon him back to the toad mountain to recuperate.

Jiraiya could arguably also absorb natural energy inside one of the toads, of course by sacrificing it, and it would, surprise, result in another surprise for Kisame who basically absorbs everything inside that chakra infused water dome. Don’t forget that most of Kisame’s major water attacks e.g the water missiles depend on eating chakra, to get bigger and stronger, and Jiraiya would read this pretty quickly.

Finally, we have the swamp of the underworld which would devour/drain the dome in its entirety. Doton>Suiton. Jiraiya managed, with 30% chakra to sink another boss summon in Manda and the jutsu got no limitations regarding how wide and how deep the jutsu can get, which means Kisame is doomed, due to naruto/kishi logic. Kisame creates the dome from his own body via chakra and it would, in a direct confrontation, lose the battle against Jiraiya’s chakra infused swamp, and even if by some miracle it doesn’t drain it all, it will still manage to disperse it, because the The suiton jutsu would be useless without suiton chakra supporting it.

Btw, this jutsu can also be used before Kisame decides to play water polo and samahada can’t both drain the swamp and defend against Jiraiya attacks. Forget about whether or not Kisame can escape Jiraiya, inescapable, toad stomach defends because he’s simply outmatched in this fight.

+ rep man

 

[The Eye]

this is so biased and why is kisame given the advantage in both cases?

blaze why dont you make a sasori vs itachi. i bet you would claim itachi is going to win that one too?

 

[resurrection]

Nice argument.......

++ rep.

I think you should stop wasting time here by putting up this painstaking thread coz the audiences are not worthy enough for this. They only would like to hear Naruto here, naruto there, minato here, minato there, kakashi here, kakashi there, etc.....They don't even have the proper understanding what they write or say.

 

[Vexorian]

Mhm....I say this match is a toss-up. Experience factor goes to Jiraiya, which counts for alot and always has in every fight. The major issue here is whether or not Jiraiya can control small amounts of Nature chakra or not, it was only said he cannot enter Sage Mode, but it was never said he couldn't manipulate some Nature chakra. Also, it is dependant on whether the amount of chakra he can control is worthwhile for turning Kisame into stone.

Summonings go to Jiraiya due to Ma and Pa, the Boss Toads and Kisame's sharks cancel. The terrain of choice here would be Jiraiya's Barrier, so all he has to do is pull him in, which I'm sure could be easily accomplished. I see Jiraiya being able to enter SM with only relatively minor problems, due to the use of clones and his barrier, as well as the Boss summons to stall if needed. Once in Sage Mode, the fight is clearly a toss-up, seeing as how both have large chakra pools (and Kisame simply cannot afford to absorb the Nature chakra, if what we think is true.)

Clearly, in the water Kisame has the advantage. Speaking in the strictest of terms, Jiraiya has already shown an intellect high above Bee's, so I find it more unlikely that he'll allow himself to be caught in the water bubble, and more likely he'll force the battle into a barrier where he has the advantage. The outcome of the battle is automatically decided by his ability to do so, and Kisame's ability to stay out of the barrier. Once inside the barrier, Kisame is dead, and vice versa for the bubble. In terms of Ninjutsu, I will say they are equal, possibly a slight edge due to the fact that we don't know how Kisame's Suiton: Daikōdan no Jutsu works, whether it feeds chakra to Kisame who in-turn feeds chakra to it, or if it just recycles the chakra and keeps it flowing outside of Kisame's body. In terms of Taijutsu they are equal as well. I can't say if the Frog Song Genjutsu would play a major role in this or not, I highly doubt it.

My decision......Toss-up, and if I had to guess.....Extreme-Difficulty Jiraiya wins.

 

[Blaze Release]

Damn, long wall Blaze :noc:. You can never win the argument as long as kisame admitted inferiority ( we and other went over this a million times, also in the other thread).

Similarly you cannot win this if you bring up things said in part 1. As i said everybody has gotten stronger. In part 1 gai > sasuke and naruto. Similarly Kakashi > naruto and sasuke. In part 2 either sasuke and naruto can defeat kakashi and gai. Secondly kisame respects people with status, we saw how he acknowledged kakashi, similarly he acknowledged orochimaru and said that the person who defeated him must be something else. This was when he found out that it was sasuke and told itachi that his brothe is something special. Similarly he acknowledged jiraiya. Also ive already said that only when the losses inferiority can be taken seriously. Its a shame you had to resort to such a weak argument.

I will tell how many different ways Base Jiraiya can make shark dishes….

First off, you can’t compare Kisame’s strength and other animals to Gamabunta (besides other boss summons). Gamabunta is a boss summon who is not only Gigantic but also incredible agile and durable. His feats against Shukaka should speak for itself. He tanked Shukaku’s (a tailed beast) Wind release: Drilling Air bullet, which had previously destroyed the forrest and he confidently proclaimed that he could tank a couple more.His water release: Gunshot rivaled the tailed beast bomb, and he is able to shoot them one after the other (he can increase the damage depending on the chakra he puts in them), plus it doesn’t even need a water source so nothing Kisame can throw at him will be able to defeat this monster. Hell, he could even make things difficult for Kisame by blasting oil into the water. Gamabunta managed to hold down the strongest Kyuubi albeit for a moment, so holding Kisame would not be an issue at all, water or not (also incredible leaping abilities so he can also support Jiraiya with the navy assualt ).His sword is also big enough to cut pretty much anything it sets its eyes on.Then imagine Gamaken and Gamahiro also entering the battle….wait.. Forget about them... What about ma and pa would can still perform their epic steel breaking combos .

What i showed you with kisame easily overpowering the raccoon was to say that he can deal with large animals. You keep on forgetting that due to kisame's fighting style, if jiraiya was to summon gamabunta, its lower body will be in water. Kisame can summon 1000 sharks to easily feast on his lower body. Ive already explained that if jiraiya was to summon 2 more toads if will greatly decrease his chakra level and may not allow him to get into sm. The problem with summonings is that they are very clumsy. The water prison technique can be used against summonings to trap them in water. You alsot forget they are vulnerable to getting their chakra consumed and if that was the case will weaken them. Alot of people think that samahada only absorbs chakra on the outside, but you see bee's chakra was absorbed and he didnt have any chakra around him. As long as samahada comes in contact with you it can suck your chakra;

Spoiler

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You do not need to have chakra around you for your chakra to be absorbed. If those large, easy target summonings get in contact with samahada and they get their chakra absorbed they will get weakened and infact make kisame stronger.

Nobody can honestly argue that Jiraiya didn’t manage to pull off an incredible speed-feat against Kisame (with a woman on his back clearly making things harder for him).He succeeded in pulling off the whole contract/blood thing before Kisame managed to chop of Naruto’s leg. Jiraiya is clearly faster, we don’t where in the 5 scale he is, plus Kisame struggled against one of the minor toads.

Incredible speed feat?. Think you mean handseal speed. That doesnt prove anything. The girl was on his back and after he summoned the frog did we see him have one hand on the girl. Obvious he can balance the girl on his back without his hands, but also we know that he uses both hands to summon therefore he mustve balanced the girl on his back in order to use both hands. Lets not forget that the summoning technique requires 5 handseals, which isnt doesnt show handseal speed feat. Lets not forget that naruto's handseal speed is 1/5 and he can summon just as fast. I do however agree that jiraiya has a faster handseal speed than kisame by 1.

Also bad argument, in a vs battle, to proclaim that shinibo only uses their summons against other summons. The fact is it can be used offensively and effectively against anybody and everybody. Minato effectively hold down the Kyuubi, and Jiraiya can perform it in an instant right above the target and the force alone would break Kisame in two.Kisame’s durability feats will probably allow him to survive however not before Jiraiya can finish him off with a Odama rasengan (forrest-busting tech). This much can’t be disputed.

Ok then jiraiya can summon, but ive already explained the disadvantages of summoning against kisame above and in the op. You claim odama rasengan will kill off kisame. First of all its chakra, which can be absorbed by samahada, we saw bee's lightning based attack get absorbed;

Spoiler

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Lets not forget that kisame got his rib cage open by bee in tailed beast mode and lariat him. If he is surviving that he is survivng rasengan, how ever big it is. Off course samahada should devour the rasengan nonetheless U_U

Spoiler

NINJUTSU; Kuchiyose: Yatai Kuzushi no jutsu (Summoning: Cargo Shattering technique*)
User: Jiraiya
Offensive; Close, Medium, Long ranges; Rank: B

Main text

A destructive dive that takes full advantage of a giant Toad's bodily mass! The strength of the fall varies depending on the caster. In the case of someone like Jiraiya from the Sannin, the summon can be performed in an instant right above the target, further adding the great gravitational force of a good several hundred meters high dive to the Toad's own weight!!

Captions

-All strategies are meaningless! Such is the incomparably hard pressure of the Toad's abdomen!!

-The groundbreaking fall of the giant Toad!

Picture comment

-The earth-crawling python is efficiently attacked from above! Caught into the fall of the giant Toad, it cannot perform any technique, in spite of its characteristically sharp spirit..

That technique is used on large targets, thats what you dont get. A ninja obviously isnt as big as a summoning but also faster and smarter. You seem to forget kisame's speed feat. You do know that he also uses the body flicker right;

Spoiler

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Secondly, You are also forgetting Jiraiya’s huge chakra reserve which would give him the option to create multiple clones (not to mention multiple summons) which would nullify your perceived notion regarding Jiraiya’s inability to move. Those clones and/summons would fight Kisame evenly- more importantly they will be able to keep the distance which would give him plenty of time to absorb natural energy. Kisame absorbed Aoba’s chakra and he tried to do the same with Gai i.e. Kisame would, quietly, say goodbye and immediately turn into a statue and that would be a wrap.

Both jiraiya and kisame have a 5/5 for stamina, but kisame has more stamina. Allow me to explain, kisame has been noted to have a stupidly large chakra level and this thread will explain;

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.

Before you say both have a 5/5 therefore they are on par, let me remind you that hidan and sasori all have a 5/5 for stamina in the databook;
Sasori;

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Hidan;

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This doesnt however mean that hidan and sasori's chakra level are on par with kisame's, because as its been said he has the largets chakra reserve in akatsuki and i need not remind you that hidan and sasori are akatsuki members.

Kisame can also create clones so jiraiya's clones can be countered. You seem to think that jiraiya has the same chakra reserve as kisame. What you forget is that shadow clones split the users chakra, but also summoning take up a huge chakra. If its this mich chakra jiraiya has to use to distract kisame, his chakra would be greatly reduced therefore he cannot balance the little chakra he has left with sm, because the natural energy will easily push the little chakra he has left to the side

Kisame is a perfect jinchuuriki hunter because he can, via samahada, eat up chakra shrouds’ like kids eat candy. However Jiraiya lacks the shroud which means Kisame would have to get up and close to perform his magic trick. Jiraiya is a midrange fighter so he could easily keep the distance (until he absorbed the necessary senjutsu). His hair jutsu is haxxed because he can send off a large quantity of them and he only needs one to connect for Kisame since to crumble. Kisame would regenerate however the game would continue and Jiraiya would only need one opening to overwhelm kisame, by the way, who he also outclasses when it comes to intelligenc. Lets us not forget that Bee’s chakra infused pencil would have penetrated Kisame’s defenses.Direct/immediate life-threatening techniques can still obliterate Kisame..

At the highlighted part, thats where you are wrong. Samahada can abosrb chakra, even without the opponent having a chakra shroud. Show me the chakra shroud around bee;

Spoiler

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Jiraiya outclasses kisame when it comes to intelligence? Kisame isnt as dumb as you think, read how deep he analysed bee's technique;

Spoiler

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Water dome (by far kisame’s most dangerous technique).

This massive technique would overwhelm most people but Jiraiya possesses the perfect counters to render it useless:

Jiraiya would not only drown since he could easily summon a guard toad (while having the other summons fighting alongside with him) and go inside its stomach, but he can also mask his chakra inside of it. Jiraiya would then wait for Kisame to attack and command the toad guard to grap/teleport Kisame in an instant which would result in him getting KTFO. The acid would tear apart Kisame and there’s nothing he could do about it, no regeneration, no nothing.This is haxxed ability where, at the contractor’s command, it is possible to exit and or enter in an instant. If the opponent is too strong (not in this case far from it) he could pull a Minato an reverse summon him back to the toad mountain to recuperate.

I think you mean this technique which is used in conjunction with the barrier technique;

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. What you fail to get is that pein had already seen the technique (barrier) eariler on the fight, but when he summoned all 6 paths he still risked it and that is what allowed jiraiya to trap one of the paths because they broke the barrier. Now pein was able to see the barrier because its chakra. Kisame fused with samahada can sense chakra. Going by this he should be able to sense that there is a barrier around jiraiya and instead turn to mid range attacks with his suiton

Jiraiya could arguably also absorb natural energy inside one of the toads, of course by sacrificing it, and it would, surprise, result in another surprise for Kisame who basically absorbs everything inside that chakra infused water dome. Don’t forget that most of Kisame’s major water attacks e.g the water missiles depend on eating chakra, to get bigger and stronger, and Jiraiya would read this pretty quickly.

Absorb natural energy from one toad. To my knowlednge im sure you have to be on the outside or a place where you can sense natural energy and i doubt inside a toad its possible.

Finally, we have the swamp of the underworld which would devour/drain the dome in its entirety. Doton>Suiton. Jiraiya managed, with 30% chakra to sink another boss summon in Manda and the jutsu got no limitations regarding how wide and how deep the jutsu can get, which means Kisame is doomed, due to naruto/kishi logic. Kisame creates the dome from his own body via chakra and it would, in a direct confrontation, lose the battle against Jiraiya’s chakra infused swamp, and even if by some miracle it doesn’t drain it all, it will still manage to disperse it, because the The suiton jutsu would be useless without suiton chakra supporting it.

Its true that doton> suiton, but think logicall for a moment. Depending on how much water you can create you can wash the mud away. Btw you keep on talking abot the swamp of the underworld. Is that supposed to trap or hinder kisame's movement because that technique trapped a summoning. Allow me to enlighten you. That technique is only useful against summonings because they lack chakra control. Now you think kisame would sink like the snake in that technique, after ive showed you that he can use the Earth Release: Subterranean Voyage to move. But more importantly that technique isnt sinking somebody a ninja who has great chakra control like kisame. If he has been shown to be able to stand on water and not drown, he isnt drowning in mud. He can use his great chakra control and walk on the mud the same way he does in water;

Spoiler

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If he isnt drowning in water and can walk on it, its common sense to say he can do the same to mud.

Btw, this jutsu can also be used before Kisame decides to play water polo and samahada can’t both drain the swamp and defend against Jiraiya attacks. Forget about whether or not Kisame can escape Jiraiya, inescapable, toad stomach defends because he’s simply outmatched in this fight.

Narutopedia has all the techiques a ninja has used in naruto. I couldnt find the technique. The closest thing that matched your description was used in the anime and i dont do technique's used in the anime that a ninja hasnt shown in the manga. If its the toad stomach technique, i believe we have already talked and settled it. 1000 FEEDING sharks should eat kisame's way out and infact the whole technique which is meat. Or are you telling me that sharks have turned vegetarians

Why would you allow Kisame to fuse with samahada? We have never seen Kisame start with that and it would be the same as letting Jiraiya start in sage mode; or letting Gai start in gate 7. A lot of selective reading in your post and you have completely ignored a lot of Jiraiya's options. More like you have tried to find a way for Kisame to win...

The reason i allowed kisame to fuse with samahada is because he can get in his enhance for a lot easier than jiraiya can. Therefore its fair to say it would be kisame fused with samahada against base jiraiya. Ive talked about everything jiraiya has in his arsenal. From frog kata, to the genjutsu, to summonings, to the toad stomach, to oil, to fire techniques, to swamp of the underworld, to collaboration techniques

Gai clearly defeated Kisame and it would be absurd to claim otherwise. Gai could have killed off Kisame had he wanted to but instead opted to interrogate him.Gai KO’d him, carried him on his back all the way to the tree he escaped from. You make it sound like Kisame was playing possum- no he was defeated and he would have been dead had the intention been such- you also assume that all taijutsu effects people the same...

Never denied that gai beat kisame but it was under circumstances. He didnt have samahada for one, which wouldve greatly helped, but also he was weakened when he came out of samahada and vene though he absorbed bee's chakra, it wasnt enough, Lets not get off topic though. Gai k.o him?, i dont think you know the meaning of k.o. What i was saying is that if kisame didnt get damaged with 7 gates gai, frog kata isnt either. I even presumed that he could get damaged and talked about him recovering with samahada, like the way his ribcage was ripped open

Taijutsu is incredible important and I also hope you aren’t suggesting that Kisame could’ve survived the double lariat the two brothers performed on Zetzu. Thing is, senjutsu enhances everything and is on a completely different level than anything we have previously seen. Jiraiya would destroy Kisame up close and It would be unwise for kisame to engage, especially when he can turn into a frog- at any given time.

First of all jiraiya doesnt know frog katas. I do however agree that his taijutsu would be enhanced strength wise. But you see gai in 7 gates power is greater than senjutsu's. Noon tiger was said to be a 1 hit k.o. Yet kisame was still alive. Similarly bee's lariat in v2 tailed beasts is greater than senjutsu and even though that greatly injured kisame, he regenerated.

You’re forgetting the Sasuke/Orochimaru battle, Konan/Jiraiya fight, and the Itachi/Sasuke battle. A fight can take place anywhere (these are shinobi after all) and it would be foolish to be narrow-minded about it but, yes, the majority of fights so far have been outside. Jiraiya is not limited by space however, on the contrary, he uses whatever helps him the battle and as a counter fighter he will adapt to the opponent’s fighting style- in this case Kisame.

I know that fights can take place anyway. I was basing this on probabilities. Chances are it would take place outside. Neither jiraiya or kisame are limited in space either way. But you see i was actually giving jiraiya the advantage and saying that it should take place outside. In indoors he cannot summon because those summogings are too big. Secondly in an enclosed space sm would be even harder to get into, but if you add the fact that he wouldnt be able to summon frogs in order to destruct kisame it would be even harder. Finally if kisame was to fill the enclosed space with water which he very can. Whilst he can breath in water and infact gets faster in water, jiraiya would be at a great disadvantage

Jiraiya is a chakra beast, canon ( Databook, specifically, clarifies this, -not only in his score- and as you said he completed the sage mode training) so you can’t really compare him to Naruto who had a horrible chakra control, at that time and he actually wasted much more chakra to make a single clone than any of his classmates(including Sakura and Sasuke) plus you’re forgetting that Ma and Pa can summon toads too; they would simply do it if Jiraiya wanted to spare some chakra.

Already countered this. U_U

this is so biased and why is kisame given the advantage in both cases?

blaze why dont you make a sasori vs itachi. i bet you would claim itachi is going to win that one too?

I already said sasori would win and ive my reasons. Kisame hasnt been given the advantage in either case. Its fair to say since he cand enhance with seconds, it would be kisame fused with samahada vs base jiraiya. His enhancement doesnt take time

Nice argument.......

++ rep.

I think you should stop wasting time here by putting up this painstaking thread coz the audiences are not worthy enough for this. They only would like to hear Naruto here, naruto there, minato here, minato there, kakashi here, kakashi there, etc.....They don't even have the proper understanding what they write or say.

Thanks xd. This will most likely be my last thread anyway. U_U

 

[the flash]

He didn't really take on 6 while killing 3.It was more like he killed 3 then they got revived + 3 more.When the 6 paths came out Jiraiya couldn't do anything.

Not to mention Nagato decided to not use his strongest Path's abilities (Deva Path) ability to defy gravity by pushing and pulling.What could Jiraiya do if Nagato Pulled him and threw 3 kunai at his face???NOTHING!!!!

ok but he still killed 3 of them and still did u read chapter 144 page 8

 

[destined 2 win]

can u explain why did konohamaru won this battle with pain.

pain was 100000 times stronger than that kid , with a lot of stamina and power and battle experience buy yet konohamaru pawned 1 of pain.

yr petty logic and research doesnt determine outcome in narutoverse. its kishi who decides who gets pawned and who win. jman is his fav character and he will make him win against odds . got it

i give u -rep for doing all these nonsense research work and make stupid threads. get some life jsut enjoy naruto and troll all over internet.:flaw:

 

[the flash]

too long to read
i didnt read all but i will say kisame wins
he will drain all chakra jiraya had

but he cant drain jiraiya sage mode chakra he will turn into a frog

 

[the flash]

Before you put up a debate like this go back to part 1 and you will see itachi stated that him and kisame fighting jiraya would end up in a tie. I dont think itachi would say something like that if it wasn't true

i stated the same thing and i dont think anyone realized it chapter 144 page 8

 

[destined 2 win]

Similarly you cannot win this if you bring up things said in part 1. As i said everybody has gotten stronger. In part 1 gai > sasuke and naruto. Similarly Kakashi > naruto and sasuke. In part 2 either sasuke and naruto can defeat kakashi and gai. Secondly kisame respects people with status, we saw how he acknowledged kakashi, similarly he acknowledged orochimaru and said that the person who defeated him must be something else. This was when he found out that it was sasuke and told itachi that his brothe is something special. Similarly he acknowledged jiraiya. Also ive already said that only when the losses inferiority can be taken seriously. Its a shame you had to resort to such a weak argument.



What i showed you with kisame easily overpowering the raccoon was to say that he can deal with large animals. You keep on forgetting that due to kisame's fighting style, if jiraiya was to summon gamabunta, its lower body will be in water. Kisame can summon 1000 sharks to easily feast on his lower body. Ive already explained that if jiraiya was to summon 2 more toads if will greatly decrease his chakra level and may not allow him to get into sm. The problem with summonings is that they are very clumsy. The water prison technique can be used against summonings to trap them in water. You alsot forget they are vulnerable to getting their chakra consumed and if that was the case will weaken them. Alot of people think that samahada only absorbs chakra on the outside, but you see bee's chakra was absorbed and he didnt have any chakra around him. As long as samahada comes in contact with you it can suck your chakra;

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You do not need to have chakra around you for your chakra to be absorbed. If those large, easy target summonings get in contact with samahada and they get their chakra absorbed they will get weakened and infact make kisame stronger.




Incredible speed feat?. Think you mean handseal speed. That doesnt prove anything. The girl was on his back and after he summoned the frog did we see him have one hand on the girl. Obvious he can balance the girl on his back without his hands, but also we know that he uses both hands to summon therefore he mustve balanced the girl on his back in order to use both hands. Lets not forget that the summoning technique requires 5 handseals, which isnt doesnt show handseal speed feat. Lets not forget that naruto's handseal speed is 1/5 and he can summon just as fast. I do however agree that jiraiya has a faster handseal speed than kisame by 1.





Ok then jiraiya can summon, but ive already explained the disadvantages of summoning against kisame above and in the op. You claim odama rasengan will kill off kisame. First of all its chakra, which can be absorbed by samahada, we saw bee's lightning based attack get absorbed;

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Lets not forget that kisame got his rib cage open by bee in tailed beast mode and lariat him. If he is surviving that he is survivng rasengan, how ever big it is. Off course samahada should devour the rasengan nonetheless U_U



That technique is used on large targets, thats what you dont get. A ninja obviously isnt as big as a summoning but also faster and smarter. You seem to forget kisame's speed feat. You do know that he also uses the body flicker right;

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Secondly, You are also forgetting Jiraiya’s huge chakra reserve which would give him the option to create multiple clones (not to mention multiple summons) which would nullify your perceived notion regarding Jiraiya’s inability to move. Those clones and/summons would fight Kisame evenly- more importantly they will be able to keep the distance which would give him plenty of time to absorb natural energy. Kisame absorbed Aoba’s chakra and he tried to do the same with Gai i.e. Kisame would, quietly, say goodbye and immediately turn into a statue and that would be a wrap.

Both jiraiya and kisame have a 5/5 for stamina, but kisame has more stamina. Allow me to explain, kisame has been noted to have a stupidly large chakra level and this thread will explain;

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.

Before you say both have a 5/5 therefore they are on par, let me remind you that hidan and sasori all have a 5/5 for stamina in the databook;
Sasori;

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Hidan;

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This doesnt however mean that hidan and sasori's chakra level are on par with kisame's, because as its been said he has the largets chakra reserve in akatsuki and i need not remind you that hidan and sasori are akatsuki members.

Kisame can also create clones so jiraiya's clones can be countered. You seem to think that jiraiya has the same chakra reserve as kisame. What you forget is that shadow clones split the users chakra, but also summoning take up a huge chakra. If its this mich chakra jiraiya has to use to distract kisame, his chakra would be greatly reduced therefore he cannot balance the little chakra he has left with sm, because the natural energy will easily push the little chakra he has left to the side




At the highlighted part, thats where you are wrong. Samahada can abosrb chakra, even without the opponent having a chakra shroud. Show me the chakra shroud around bee;

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Jiraiya outclasses kisame when it comes to intelligence? Kisame isnt as dumb as you think, read how deep he analysed bee's technique;

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I think you mean this technique which is used in conjunction with the barrier technique;

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. What you fail to get is that pein had already seen the technique (barrier) eariler on the fight, but when he summoned all 6 paths he still risked it and that is what allowed jiraiya to trap one of the paths because they broke the barrier. Now pein was able to see the barrier because its chakra. Kisame fused with samahada can sense chakra. Going by this he should be able to sense that there is a barrier around jiraiya and instead turn to mid range attacks with his suiton






Absorb natural energy from one toad. To my knowlednge im sure you have to be on the outside or a place where you can sense natural energy and i doubt inside a toad its possible.



Its true that doton> suiton, but think logicall for a moment. Depending on how much water you can create you can wash the mud away. Btw you keep on talking abot the swamp of the underworld. Is that supposed to trap or hinder kisame's movement because that technique trapped a summoning. Allow me to enlighten you. That technique is only useful against summonings because they lack chakra control. Now you think kisame would sink like the snake in that technique, after ive showed you that he can use the Earth Release: Subterranean Voyage to move. But more importantly that technique isnt sinking somebody a ninja who has great chakra control like kisame. If he has been shown to be able to stand on water and not drown, he isnt drowning in mud. He can use his great chakra control and walk on the mud the same way he does in water;

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If he isnt drowning in water and can walk on it, its common sense to say he can do the same to mud.




Narutopedia has all the techiques a ninja has used in naruto. I couldnt find the technique. The closest thing that matched your description was used in the anime and i dont do technique's used in the anime that a ninja hasnt shown in the manga. If its the toad stomach technique, i believe we have already talked and settled it. 1000 FEEDING sharks should eat kisame's way out and infact the whole technique which is meat. Or are you telling me that sharks have turned vegetarians




The reason i allowed kisame to fuse with samahada is because he can get in his enhance for a lot easier than jiraiya can. Therefore its fair to say it would be kisame fused with samahada against base jiraiya. Ive talked about everything jiraiya has in his arsenal. From frog kata, to the genjutsu, to summonings, to the toad stomach, to oil, to fire techniques, to swamp of the underworld, to collaboration techniques




Never denied that gai beat kisame but it was under circumstances. He didnt have samahada for one, which wouldve greatly helped, but also he was weakened when he came out of samahada and vene though he absorbed bee's chakra, it wasnt enough, Lets not get off topic though. Gai k.o him?, i dont think you know the meaning of k.o. What i was saying is that if kisame didnt get damaged with 7 gates gai, frog kata isnt either. I even presumed that he could get damaged and talked about him recovering with samahada, like the way his ribcage was ripped open




First of all jiraiya doesnt know frog katas. I do however agree that his taijutsu would be enhanced strength wise. But you see gai in 7 gates power is greater than senjutsu's. Noon tiger was said to be a 1 hit k.o. Yet kisame was still alive. Similarly bee's lariat in v2 tailed beasts is greater than senjutsu and even though that greatly injured kisame, he regenerated.



I know that fights can take place anyway. I was basing this on probabilities. Chances are it would take place outside. Neither jiraiya or kisame are limited in space either way. But you see i was actually giving jiraiya the advantage and saying that it should take place outside. In indoors he cannot summon because those summogings are too big. Secondly in an enclosed space sm would be even harder to get into, but if you add the fact that he wouldnt be able to summon frogs in order to destruct kisame it would be even harder. Finally if kisame was to fill the enclosed space with water which he very can. Whilst he can breath in water and infact gets faster in water, jiraiya would be at a great disadvantage



Already countered this. U_U



I already said sasori would win and ive my reasons. Kisame hasnt been given the advantage in either case. Its fair to say since he cand enhance with seconds, it would be kisame fused with samahada vs base jiraiya. His enhancement doesnt take time




Thanks xd. This will most likely be my last thread anyway. U_U

this guy is really crazy who on earth will read all these paragraphs. :shrug:

 

[the flash]

Only xxsagexx is actually coming up with something worth replying to.

i say jiraiya will win not because i think that personally but because itachi said it himself that if him and kisame went after naruto when jiraiya was there it would end with a tie go back and check for urself 144 page 8

 

[SenninKyuubi]

Real sh!t
But i think Jiraya would pull it off, or rather i want him to XD

 

[JordanM]

You've thought all of this out really well, but you also have to remember we have never seen base Jirayia fight to his fullest capacity, and also sage mode, it won't matter if Jirayia's low on chakra, unlike Naruto he can fuse with ma and pa.

You also have to remember, that Jirayia was considered an S-rank shinobi even without Sage mode, and Kisame relied heavily on Samehada.

Not to mention that Jirayia is a seal master with amazing chakra control, Naruto only lost so much chakra summoning Gamabunta in part 1, because his chakra control was so bad.

I'm sure it would be a good fight, but I'm positive Jirayia even without Sage mode would come out on top.

 

[Easyfathom]

this guy is really crazy who on earth will read all these paragraphs. :shrug:

I did. almost twice :S

Worth waiting all day to read haha xd

I see your your points but again I see "should"'s and "if"'s.

Won't go into who would win again... But yeh nice reply

 

[destined 2 win]

Originally Posted by Blaze Release View Post
Similarly you cannot win this if you bring up things said in part 1. As i said everybody has gotten stronger. In part 1 gai > sasuke and naruto. Similarly Kakashi > naruto and sasuke. In part 2 either sasuke and naruto can defeat kakashi and gai. Secondly kisame respects people with status, we saw how he acknowledged kakashi, similarly he acknowledged orochimaru and said that the person who defeated him must be something else. This was when he found out that it was sasuke and told itachi that his brothe is something special. Similarly he acknowledged jiraiya. Also ive already said that only when the losses inferiority can be taken seriously. Its a shame you had to resort to such a weak argument.

i just want to say itachi , kisame,pain nobody has grown stronger bcoz nobody practised new jutsus . its just they didnt got to fight much more during the ist part and all fight of akatsuki was in 2nd part.

in fact i say kisame is now wayyyyy weaker than before beacuse he lost samehada so he dnt have chakra absorbing freaking sword so his stamina and strength is low.

and kisame I.Q is really low and he is way too stupid infornt of jiraiya.

i want to add a final thing jiraiya is a versatile fighter who know the weakness and can change his battle plan easily.

see how he used oil to completely immobilized konan as if konan was nothing but that same konana nearly killed tobi .hence kisame stands no chance agnst jiraiya.

 

[xxSAGExx]

Lmao, ive no issue with oro, serioulsy. I do find him creepy for obvious reasons though xd



I agree, that sound travels faster IN water, but ON the surface depending on the volume and how deep you are you cannot hear it. Before you say, why cannot jiraiya and the frog get in the water and use the sound genjutsu. First of all talking/singing is very difficult to accomplish in water because you would have water in your mouth, secondly in a shark infested water (1000 sharks), it would be a good idea to stay on the surface because those sharks have the advantage in water but also the numbers

You think Jiraiya ad the 2 sages wouldn't know this? All 3 are smart and know how to make full use of their jutsus, the 2 sages (Ma and Pa) are also there to aid Jiraiya in strategies. Jiraiya's

Dude split your text next time, its easier to read. xd
Oil is in deed different from ink, but the point i was trying to put across is that both could stop kisame from breathing in water and yet if ink doesnt stop him, oil isnt either. Also they oil will most likely sit on the surface of the water and if you look at how much water kisame can create, the little oil jiraiya can make is nearly insignificant.

I said Jiraiya with shadow clones or with Gamabuta will make the oil and the oil still will cause harm to aqua-life by many ways. Jiraiya can go into Gamabuta and have him go where the oil is, jump as high as he can out of the water then throw Jiraiya out of water colliding wave's range if Gamabuta can't jump out of the range then disperse. go down and read about wildlifes in oil spills, Kisame is a shark when fused with Samehada.

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The ink from an Octopus is a self-defense mechanism that that is used as a smokescreen so the Octopus can escape or surprise attack. Bee used it to try and escape not to cause any type of damage.

I was contering the person who said jiraiya would use swamp of the underworld to stop kisame's movement and i said he can use water colliding wave. If we turn it the other way and use your way, meaning kisame uses water colliding wave first then jiraiya uses swamp of the underworld, depending on much water there is and how much mud there is, the swamp of the underworld could just turn the water into muddy water. Even then kisame has that earth technique i showed you in which he moves quickly in the ground.

Ok but swamp of the underworld is earth element (earth>water) and it pulls whatever is on top of it down. Water colliding wave moves on the ground so swamp of the underground would pull it down in the way I said it would be used. How would water colliding wave be muddy when swamp of the underworld is not just a big patch of mud, it sinks whatever is caught in it. Kisame wouldn't be able to go underground until he's out of swamp of the underworld's range.

Also stop trying to make things up. This is in relation to the highlighted part. Summoning pa frog takes time, as we already saw against pein. The only reasons he would need to summon him is to help with sm and that takes time. Also ive already showed you that one huge summoning alone isnt enough. We just saw how kisame knocked that raccoon out fairly easily and its around the same size as the toads, not to forget jiraiya's summoning would most likely be in water, therefore its lower body is vulnerable to any of kisame's shark infested waters.

You're basing your arguments on what you saw in Pain's fight but you fail to note that Jiraiya already used 1 summoning to enter the rain village, 1 summon to trap the two rain ninjas, turned one of the ninjas into a toad, took control of a rain ninja by going into their shadow, used fire jutsu on Konan, used oil jutsu on Konan, summon Gamaken, used barrier jutsu, used toad stomach, used fire jutsu at 2 more times, and shadow clones before going into sage mode. Plus Jiraiya said it takes time to summon both of the sages and this was after he used up alot of chakra.

Jiraiya was gathering natural chakra to enter sage mode and summon Ma and Pa which is why it took so long as it shows him in sage mode with Ma and Pa already fused to him (Jiraiya's hands started to glow as he was nearing SM. All of the times we see Jiraiya running were shadow clones (anime shows this). What I'm saying is for Jiraiya to summon Pa toad (same amount as 1 giant summon) and then fuse with him, Toads have the ability to change their sizes from small to their regular size (don't know about Ma and Pa). Just like how Minato needed time to gather enough chakra to teleport him,Kurama and the ttb Jiraiya said it takes time to summon both Sages but he also was gathering natural chakra to go into SM after alreadying using a lot of chakra.

Jiraiya can summon a toad to eat samahada?, i hope you trolling U_U.
Ultra rasengan?, you do know that its made of chakra right. Secondly bee's lightning based attack was absorbed. Rasengan is getting absorbed the same way pretha path did. The combination jiraiya makes with pa and ma frog is boiling oil, kisame's vast suiton should cool it down in no time. Look at how much water kisame can make and tell me that he cannot counter such a technique. As you said both are strong and i believe this fight can go either way, the reason i believe kisame has the advantage is because he can upgrade in a matter of seconds, whilst jiraiya cannot. If jiraiya was to upgrade it would be very difficult and would need to sacrifice a bit of his chakra in order to distract kisame for him to get into sm. If he was to just summon 1 frog, that is no where near enough to keep kisame at bay. If he ws to summon more than one, his chakra would be greatly decreased and with it, sm would be risky because it needs somebody with large chakra reserves and if you have already used more than half on summonings the little you have left would be pushed to the side by natural energy

I said one of the toads can eat samehada the same way Jiraiya pulled one of Pain's body into Kekkai • Gama Hyourou - Barrier • Toad Gourd Prison, Ma and Pa used their tongues to pull Pain into it. This is if Kisame is not fusedand I know it won't be easy but I believe with the right strategy it can be done.

Jiraiya's boiling oil consist of both wind and fire element mixed with oil, if you remember kakashi's fight with Kakuza, Kakashi used water to try and stop Kakuza's fire+wind combo and said he couldn't put it out with only water jutsu. Now I want to remind you in part 1 Kakashi's water jutsu canelled out Kisame's and both have gotten stronger so the same thing would happen in the situation of boiling oil. Boiling oil was in a large quanity and is like acid so I don't see only water jutsu putting this out when they both would be using kage level jutsus (Note: Jiraiya's jutsu's would be increased with SM) so 2 elements beat 1 element in this case because wind increase the power of the fire and the oil further increase the fire's burning capabilities.


Edit: seriously people i said we should look at abilities and feats shown in part 2 and little interest in part1. Seems like people either cannot read, trolling or cannot come up with a good argument therefore go by things said in part 1.

I came up will good arguements and reasons to support them. We only seen Jiraiya go all out once and Kisame twice so tell me how is that fair? Oh and when you said 1 summon can't do anything to Kisame, 1 summon did pretty damn good against Pain's powerful summons. A dog that keeps multiplying, invisible lizard, bird, ect... So I'm very sure 1 summon can evade Kisame long enough for Jiraiya to enter SM. If Jiraiya already has a summon then the moment Kisame trys to make water colliding wave then the toad can use it's powerful jumps to get out of Kisame's range.

 

[zerimus]

Jman<kisame<guy<pain?

i'm afriad i dont by that guy is stronger then Jman.

I still feel if Jman knew the truth about pain, the out come would of been quite different.

Jman being the strongest of the sannin would beable to take down Kisame.

Jman has a vast amount of experience in fight a really wide amount of people.

Jman's rival Oro had crazy amount of weird, powerful, crazy things he did, so i dont think Kisame's over the top fighting style would really suprize or upset Jman in any way.

i do think it wouldn't be an easy fight, but Jman ends on top.