I agree, that sound travels faster IN water, but ON the surface depending on the volume and how deep you are you cannot hear it. Before you say, why cannot jiraiya and the frog get in the water and use the sound genjutsu. First of all talking/singing is very difficult to accomplish in water because you would have water in your mouth, secondly in a shark infested water (1000 sharks), it would be a good idea to stay on the surface because those sharks have the advantage in water but also the numbers
Ink is different from oil tho, have you ever seen oil in water that doesn't kill water breaths in the water? Also ask anyonewho knows the rules of cooking, Water+oil is flammable. Jiraiya would use swamp of the underworld after Kisame use his exploding water colliding wave so he would know how big to make it. You are mistaking about the sharks, I said Jiraiya's shadow clone will attack Kisame with toad stomach as soon as it's summon. Kisame can't summon his sharks or use water shark without water and I already gave details on how Jiraiya can stop this. Kisame can't even make water clones without water, he's not on the level as the 2nd Hokage where he can make water out of no where. Kisame can only heal himeself with chakra from Samehada so if he got seperated from samehada then he will be weaken by alot. You said Jiraiya can summon 1 strong summon without hurting his chakra reserve too much right? well Jiraiya can just summon Pa toad and fuse with him (he takes to long because he was trying to summon both Ma and Pa toad and that was after already summoning a giant toad). Pa toad would gather Natural chakra and balance it for Jiraiya (note: Jiraiya was still in SM when he only had Pa toad but went base mode after Pa seperated from him) and summon Ma toad also. Ma and Pa toad can use their tongue to grab samehada and pull it away from Kisame then Jiraiya can summon a toad to eat samehada and disperse back to the toad mountain. Also the justu with the from tongues are strong from the natural chakra they focus in it, it's strong enough to cut thru most enemies. Jiraiya can also use his hair in this fashion. after that Kisame's only powerful justu would be that big shark absorbing one which can be dodged with Jiraiya's improve speed he gains by transforming his hands and legs toad-like, all of Kisame's other jutsus can be dealt with ultra oodama rasengan and oil+fire+wind combo spamming plus frog song (attack with finishing blow before any escape).
Both are stong but we haven't seen either fight more all-out fights (Jiraiya only against Pain and Kisame against Guy and Bee.)
Dude split your text next time, its easier to read. xd
Oil is in deed different from ink, but the point i was trying to put across is that both could stop kisame from breathing in water and yet if ink doesnt stop him, oil isnt either. Also they oil will most likely sit on the surface of the water and if you look at how much water kisame can create, the little oil jiraiya can make is nearly insignificant.
I was contering the person who said jiraiya would use swamp of the underworld to stop kisame's movement and i said he can use water colliding wave. If we turn it the other way and use your way, meaning kisame uses water colliding wave first then jiraiya uses swamp of the underworld, depending on much water there is and how much mud there is, the swamp of the underworld could just turn the water into muddy water. Even then kisame has that earth technique i showed you in which he moves quickly in the ground.
Also stop trying to make things up. This is in relation to the highlighted part. Summoning pa frog takes time, as we already saw against pein. The only reasons he would need to summon him is to help with sm and that takes time. Also ive already showed you that one huge summoning alone isnt enough. We just saw how kisame knocked that raccoon out fairly easily and its around the same size as the toads, not to forget jiraiya's summoning would most likely be in water, therefore its lower body is vulnerable to any of kisame's shark infested waters.
Jiraiya can summon a toad to eat samahada?, i hope you trolling U_U.
Ultra rasengan?, you do know that its made of chakra right. Secondly bee's lightning based attack was absorbed. Rasengan is getting absorbed the same way pretha path did. The combination jiraiya makes with pa and ma frog is boiling oil, kisame's vast suiton should cool it down in no time. Look at how much water kisame can make and tell me that he cannot counter such a technique. As you said both are strong and i believe this fight can go either way, the reason i believe kisame has the advantage is because he can upgrade in a matter of seconds, whilst jiraiya cannot. If jiraiya was to upgrade it would be very difficult and would need to sacrifice a bit of his chakra in order to distract kisame for him to get into sm. If he was to just summon 1 frog, that is no where near enough to keep kisame at bay. If he ws to summon more than one, his chakra would be greatly decreased and with it, sm would be risky because it needs somebody with large chakra reserves and if you have already used more than half on summonings the little you have left would be pushed to the side by natural energy
Edit: seriously people i said we should look at abilities and feats shown in part 2 and little interest in part1. Seems like people either cannot read, trolling or cannot come up with a good argument therefore go by things said in part 1.
While I agree that Kisame is greatly underrated, him winning against Jiraiya very much depends on the situation. Your thread is nigh entirely based on if Kisame had the advantages - and he might, but what if Jiraiya had them?
IMO I think they're quite even, and it all depends on the situation and status of the characters. Then again, doesn't it always come down to that?
On a side note, I like how Itachi and Minato always sneak their way into threads like these. x)
Before you put up a debate like this go back to part 1 and you will see itachi stated that him and kisame fighting jiraya would end up in a tie. I dont think itachi would say something like that if it wasn't true
Damn, long wall Blaze :noc:. You can never win the argument as long as kisame admitted inferiority ( we and other went over this a million times, also in the other thread).
my views on the battle between Base Jiraiya and Kisame(feats).
I will tell how many different ways Base Jiraiya can make shark dishes….
First off, you can’t compare Kisame’s strength and other animals to Gamabunta (besides other boss summons). Gamabunta is a boss summon who is not only Gigantic but also incredible agile and durable. His feats against Shukaka should speak for itself. He tanked Shukaku’s (a tailed beast) Wind release: Drilling Air bullet, which had previously destroyed the forrest and he confidently proclaimed that he could tank a couple more.His water release: Gunshot rivaled the tailed beast bomb, and he is able to shoot them one after the other (he can increase the damage depending on the chakra he puts in them), plus it doesn’t even need a water source so nothing Kisame can throw at him will be able to defeat this monster. Hell, he could even make things difficult for Kisame by blasting oil into the water. Gamabunta managed to hold down the strongest Kyuubi albeit for a moment, so holding Kisame would not be an issue at all, water or not (also incredible leaping abilities so he can also support Jiraiya with the navy assualt ).His sword is also big enough to cut pretty much anything it sets its eyes on.Then imagine Gamaken and Gamahiro also entering the battle….wait.. Forget about them... What about ma and pa would can still perform their epic steel breaking combos .
Nobody can honestly argue that Jiraiya didn’t manage to pull off an incredible speed-feat against Kisame (with a woman on his back clearly making things harder for him).He succeeded in pulling off the whole contract/blood thing before Kisame managed to chop of Naruto’s leg. Jiraiya is clearly faster, we don’t where in the 5 scale he is, plus Kisame struggled against one of the minor toads.
Also bad argument, in a vs battle, to proclaim that shinibo only uses their summons against other summons. The fact is it can be used offensively and effectively against anybody and everybody. Minato effectively hold down the Kyuubi, and Jiraiya can perform it in an instant right above the target and the force alone would break Kisame in two.Kisame’s durability feats will probably allow him to survive however not before Jiraiya can finish him off with a Odama rasengan (forrest-busting tech). This much can’t be disputed.
NINJUTSU; Kuchiyose: Yatai Kuzushi no jutsu (Summoning: Cargo Shattering technique*)
User: Jiraiya
Offensive; Close, Medium, Long ranges; Rank: B
Main text
A destructive dive that takes full advantage of a giant Toad's bodily mass! The strength of the fall varies depending on the caster. In the case of someone like Jiraiya from the Sannin, the summon can be performed in an instant right above the target, further adding the great gravitational force of a good several hundred meters high dive to the Toad's own weight!!
Captions
-All strategies are meaningless! Such is the incomparably hard pressure of the Toad's abdomen!!
-The groundbreaking fall of the giant Toad!
Picture comment
-The earth-crawling python is efficiently attacked from above! Caught into the fall of the giant Toad, it cannot perform any technique, in spite of its characteristically sharp spirit..
Second off, You are also forgetting Jiraiya’s huge chakra reserve which would give him the option to create multiple clones (not to mention multiple summons) which would nullify your perceived notion regarding Jiraiya’s inability to move. Those clones and/summons would fight Kisame evenly- more importantly they will be able to keep the distance which would give him plenty of time to absorb natural energy. Kisame absorbed Aoba’s chakra and he tried to do the same with Gai i.e. Kisame would, quietly, say goodbye and immediately turn into a statue and that would be a wrap.
Kisame is a perfect jinchuuriki hunter because he can, via samahada, eat up chakra shrouds’ like kids eat candy. However Jiraiya lacks the shroud which means Kisame would have to get up and close to perform his magic trick. Jiraiya is a midrange fighter so he could easily keep the distance (until he absorbed the necessary senjutsu). His hair jutsu is haxxed because he can send off a large quantity of them and he only needs one to connect for Kisame since to crumble. Kisame would regenerate however the game would continue and Jiraiya would only need one opening to overwhelm kisame, by the way, who he also outclasses when it comes to intelligenc. Lets us not forget that Bee’s chakra infused pencil would have penetrated Kisame’s defenses.Direct/immediate life-threatening techniques can still obliterate Kisame..
Water dome (by far kisame’s most dangerous technique).
This massive technique would overwhelm most people but Jiraiya possesses the perfect counters to render it useless:
Jiraiya would not only drown since he could easily summon a guard toad (while having the other summons fighting alongside with him) and go inside its stomach, but he can also mask his chakra inside of it. Jiraiya would then wait for Kisame to attack and command the toad guard to grap/teleport Kisame in an instant which would result in him getting KTFO. The acid would tear apart Kisame and there’s nothing he could do about it, no regeneration, no nothing.This is haxxed ability where, at the contractor’s command, it is possible to exit and or enter in an instant. If the opponent is too strong (not in this case far from it) he could pull a Minato an reverse summon him back to the toad mountain to recuperate.
Jiraiya could arguably also absorb natural energy inside one of the toads, of course by sacrificing it, and it would, surprise, result in another surprise for Kisame who basically absorbs everything inside that chakra infused water dome. Don’t forget that most of Kisame’s major water attacks e.g the water missiles depend on eating chakra, to get bigger and stronger, and Jiraiya would read this pretty quickly.
Finally, we have the swamp of the underworld which would devour/drain the dome in its entirety. Doton>Suiton. Jiraiya managed, with 30% chakra to sink another boss summon in Manda and the jutsu got no limitations regarding how wide and how deep the jutsu can get, which means Kisame is doomed, due to naruto/kishi logic. Kisame creates the dome from his own body via chakra and it would, in a direct confrontation, lose the battle against Jiraiya’s chakra infused swamp, and even if by some miracle it doesn’t drain it all, it will still manage to disperse it, because the The suiton jutsu would be useless without suiton chakra supporting it.
Btw, this jutsu can also be used before Kisame decides to play water polo and samahada can’t both drain the swamp and defend against Jiraiya attacks. Forget about whether or not Kisame can escape Jiraiya, inescapable, toad stomach defends because he’s simply outmatched in this fight.
Jiraiya would have killed kisame inside the stomach of the frog if it wasnt for itachi using ameratsu to break out of it in the first place Jiraiya could summon that anywhere if he had to making it Jiraiya>Kisame
blaze every argument you post is in favor of the person you wish for them to win. You just say dont compare characters to others yet you compared frog tiajutsu to gai taijutsu which are two different fighting styles. You believe the fight would go one sided as always. Kisame is more of a shark? what do shark sense in the water sound vibrations, either way the jutsu would work land or in water. And why havnt you mention jairya ability to place kisame inside a frog stomach and have him burn by the acid? and also in sage mode we all know samada would be useless as it would just turn into stone and last but not least kisame and itachi openly admitted to each other they were no match for him.
Jiraiya would win if he was fused with ma and pa because sage mode chakra can't be absorbed, either Kisame or Samehada would be turned to stone and if they fused then both turn into stone. We saw a path of pein turn into stone from absorbing Naruto's sage mode chakra it only took about 3 seconds tops and no one really knows about sage mode so they would not know about that side effect.
Kisame is strong against opponents with lots of chakra that he can suck especially tailed beasts but we all saw what happened when he faced Guy, he doesn't rely on chakra that much so he gave Kisame an ass whooping. Jiraiya is also the kind of person who doesn't expend all of his chakra on heavy toll jutsu's and for taijutsu he can use frog fu which is really powerful.
Nice argument but it was completely biased towards Kisame, there was no mention of all the things Jiraiya could have done to reach SM, like the frog belly thing he did when entering the rain village, or summoning Gamabunta because no matter what you say Kisame could not easily take out Gamabunta, or even worst-case scenario, Jiraiya could create some clones or Gamabunta and than reverse-summon himself to mount myobuko and charge SM there and once Jiraiya enters SM its all over, no more chakra sucking and he has SM taijutsu which is vastly different from Gai's taijutsu, frog genjutsu which would affect him as sound does travel through water, and SM ninjutsu which is 100x better than base ninjutsu
Why would you allow Kisame to fuse with samahada? We have never seen Kisame start with that and it would be the same as letting Jiraiya start in sage mode; or letting Gai start in gate 7. A lot of selective reading in your post and you have completely ignored a lot of Jiraiya's options. More like you have tried to find a way for Kisame to win...
First of all frog katas is taijutsu. We saw during base kisame vs 7 gates gai that taijutsu isnt doing kisame in base any harm therefore fused with samahada it definitely isnt doing much;
Secondly afternoon tiger was said to be a 1 hit k.0 technique and i need not show you that kisame wasnt exactly dead. Infact he had more than enough energy to break free from yamato's mokouton. If 7 gates gai's taijutsu which i believe is superior in speed and strength to frog kata's isnt doing any harm to kisame, frog katas isnt either;”
Gai clearly defeated Kisame and it would be absurd to claim otherwise. Gai could have killed off Kisame had he wanted to but instead opted to interrogate him.Gai KO’d him, carried him on his back all the way to the tree he escaped from. You make it sound like Kisame was playing possum- no he was defeated and he would have been dead had the intention been such- you also assume that all taijutsu effects people the same...
Taijutsu is incredible important and I also hope you aren’t suggesting that Kisame could’ve survived the double lariat the two brothers performed on Zetzu. Thing is, senjutsu enhances everything and is on a completely different level than anything we have previously seen. Jiraiya would destroy Kisame up close and It would be unwise for kisame to engage, especially when he can turn into a frog- at any given time.
We know that majority of fights take place in open space and only a minority of fights take place in an enclosed space. Only examples i can think of is the chunnin exam fights and sasori vs chiyo and sakura. The chances of this fight taking place in open space is very plausible. We also know that kisame before he fights creates a large amount of water in order to feel right at home.
You’re forgetting the Sasuke/Orochimaru battle, Konan/Jiraiya fight, and the Itachi/Sasuke battle. A fight can take place anywhere (these are shinobi after all) and it would be foolish to be narrow-minded about it but, yes, the majority of fights so far have been outside. Jiraiya is not limited by space however, on the contrary, he uses whatever helps him the battle and as a counter fighter he will adapt to the opponent’s fighting style- in this case Kisame.
Jiraiya would need sm to defeat a fellow ninja who defeated the 4 tailed jinchrucki and complained about a being a little tired. He also defeat bee who was saved at the last moment. But jiraiya cannot get into sm again kisame and this is why. Jiraiya was able to get into sm against pein because nagato used 1/6 of his power (animal realm only);
This is false and very nooby of you. Kisame is the perfect jinhuuriki hunter because of the hosts’ chakra shrouds which he can easily devour with samahada i.e. perfect matchups for him. It is also wrong to use ABC logic since it doesn’t work like that
Now a lot of people would say he can summon a toad of army to fight for him whilst he gets into sm. There are a couple of things wrong with this, first of all summoning technique takes alot of chakra depending on the size and quantity of the summonings. We saw in part 1 that naruto himself has a high chakra reserve and infact gets a 4/5 in the databook;
Jiraiya is a chakra beast, canon ( Databook, specifically, clarifies this, -not only in his score- and as you said he completed the sage mode training) so you can’t really compare him to Naruto who had a horrible chakra control, at that time and he actually wasted much more chakra to make a single clone than any of his classmates(including Sakura and Sasuke) plus you’re forgetting that Ma and Pa can summon toads too; they would simply do it if Jiraiya wanted to spare some chakra.
honestly if j man cant beat kisame i cant see y he is called a legendary sannin. i dont need to giv proofs. i tink d legendary sannins are more underrated than d akatsuki
Siyo i will counter all youve said, for now you asked why i said kisame can fuse with samahada and jiraiya is in base. Well he has the luxury to enhance his abilities in seconds whilst jiraiya cannot. Its fair to say, he would get into his enhancement before jiraiya can get into sm, therefore it would be kisama fused with samahada vs base jiraiya
Dude u r totally against jman, n e how u fail to mention why kisame didn't really tire after fight the 4tail jinchuriki, it bcoz he used samedeha to drain the chakra from his opponent, of course he couldn't do the same with jman bcoz sage mode is a bitch! Jman is perfectly capable of adapting to his surroundings all jman needs to do is to reverse summon him self to mount myboku using body flicker, get into sage mode and body flick bak to the battle field
