Btw training someone to be powerful doesn't make you a great ninja at all.
You say he trained the 3 most powerful ninja correct? By that I assume you mean Naruto,Nagato and Minato???
1)Nagato- trained himself in every jutsu we've seen him use because those are obviously rinnengan only techs.He trained Nagato for about a year and only thought him basic elemental jutsu.
2)Naruto-Jman trained him in Rasengan,Summonings,how to break a genjutsu and im pretty sure that's it.
3)Minato-Summonings and that's all we know.
The one thing they all learned in common which I didn't mention aboive is his ninja way.How to try and find peaceful solutions to problems.But this obviously failed with Nagato and Nagato never really had any talent,he was gifted with the Rinnengan so everything came easy to him,so he really shouldn't be counted as one of the strongest ninja.Since he never had to earn his Rinnengan through hard work like Uchiha Madara.
I didn't say it does or it doesn't but It could be used in a way for justification. For example one might say for Konoha If you look at the line of people who were trained by the hokages or vice versa they tend to be the most powerful ninja's of the leaf and all fall in the same little circle of the sannin, hokages,sasuke,kakashi naruto and so forth. Now easily you can say well that is for the sake of story and that's understandable. But the apple never falls far from the tree but whatever is the case I was just pointing out why someone could bring up the argument. Now a stronger counter than mentoring people does not make you strong is bidding the question of "well how could you say something like that because we don't know kisame's full story?" I don't mean to come here and play devil's advocate I was just posing a point that some of the arguments raised in the thread even from the start, with all the posting of manga scenes, weren't anymore rational to refute the standard claims of those on the side of Jiraiya and actually weaker in some aspects.
This.... this right here is the best post i have seen truly the only argument that people well raise at you is training doesn't mean that he is strong, example the post in between mine and your's xd
Thanks man. I just responded to the training issue above. I didn't mean to say that should be a fundamental reason why Jiraiya is powerful but it sure doesn't hurt to add that to his list of things that boast his reputation.
i just want to say itachi , kisame,pain nobody has grown stronger bcoz nobody practised new jutsus . its just they didnt got to fight much more during the ist part and all fight of akatsuki was in 2nd part.
in fact i say kisame is now wayyyyy weaker than before beacuse he lost samehada so he dnt have chakra absorbing freaking sword so his stamina and strength is low.
and kisame I.Q is really low and he is way too stupid infornt of jiraiya.
i want to add a final thing jiraiya is a versatile fighter who know the weakness and can change his battle plan easily.
see how he used oil to completely immobilized konan as if konan was nothing but that same konana nearly killed tobi .hence kisame stands no chance agnst jiraiya.
1. i'm certain that kisame has his sword in this fight, and kisames' stamina is never low.
2. kisame is a very smart character.
3. konan is nothing special if she can't beat an opponent with one tech (even if it is space/time ninjutsu).
unless they fight we'll never know, all this forum has for debate is fanboys/haters picking up any detail that gives their argument an advantage and refuse to accept that there character could actually lose. Like with the whole Itachi Jiraiya thing, people refuse to accept Itachi could possibly lose despite words he's said and Jiraiyas abilities, and Jiraiya fans refuse to accept he could lose.
Personally, I think Jiraiya would win, Kisame thinks he would lose, and with all respect to Kisame, I still think most scenarios would end in a Jiraiya victory
unless they fight we'll never know, all this forum has for debate is fanboys/haters picking up any detail that gives their argument an advantage and refuse to accept that there character could actually lose. Like with the whole Itachi Jiraiya thing, people refuse to accept Itachi could possibly lose despite words he's said and Jiraiyas abilities, and Jiraiya fans refuse to accept he could lose.
Personally, I think Jiraiya would win, Kisame thinks he would lose, and with all respect to Kisame, I still think most scenarios would end in a Jiraiya victory
This pretty much sums up my thoughts on the subject and you.You seem to love making your one sided clearly bias threads.Guess I can at least say you BS leads to entertainment.
I'm pretty sure people voted for you not to make this pointless one-sided thread.
Also I find it funny that you type in sigh etc and act as if this bores you.
Look at how many posts you have and how often you're on this Base. You like making threads and being on NarutoBase!!
Jiraiya would very likely own Kisame. I can't imagine Kisame would have much to offer him in the way of an opponent. I would not want to say it's certain but I would say it's in Jiraiya's favour.
That's why I make comment like that.Pointless thread like this one.
This pretty much sums up my thoughts on the subject and you.You seem to love making your one sided clearly bias threads.Guess I can at least say you BS leads to entertainment.
I'm pretty sure people voted for you not to make this pointless one-sided thread.
Also I find it funny that you type in sigh etc and act as if this bores you.
Look at how many posts you have and how often you're on this Base. You like making threads and being on NarutoBase!!
Jiraiya would very likely own Kisame. I can't imagine Kisame would have much to offer him in the way of an opponent. I would not want to say it's certain but I would say it's in Jiraiya's favour.
If this is an attempt for me brushing you aside in a previous thread when i told you to take your fail elsewhere?. you arent doing your self any favour. Needless to say, ive retired from making threads, hence the *sigh*, i just needed to make one more thats all. No need to thank me though because ive lost interest in majority of thing going on and with this, will be my last thread hopefully U_U
Water dome + samaheda fusion is countered by spewing oil into the water and making a break for the top of the dome. If kisame follows he'll risk getting oil into his gills, and we all know what that does to fish. Btw, how does kisame deal with Jman's summons?
Blaze, i like you man and i think you are one of the best forum participants in NB but in this thread i seem to notice that you are completely biased. You have said multiple times that there are no good arguments that support Jiraiya's victory but many times i have seen people make valid arguments, even in an earlier post of mine. I'm not trying to flame or troll bro but you are kinda bein one sided
*sigh* i thought my thread creating days was over, but recently ive been forced to create a few. What i will say is that before you repeat what kisame said in part 1, bare in mind that, not only has everybody gotten stronger in part 2 we have seen more techniques demonstrated, Infact this this the thread for you on this issue;
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. Basically come up with strong arguments instead of this. Similarly dont say because gai > klisame, jiraiya > kisame. If thats the case, then kisame > bee, gai > kisame, are you telling me gai > bee, off course not. Neither logic in this thread is needed so it would be best to leave it out U_U.
Im going to talk about 2 possible scenario's going by techniques shown so far. The first one being base jiraiya vs kisame (fused with samahada) and sm jiraiya vs kisame (fused with samahada).
Scenario 1 - Base jiraiya vs kisame (fused with samahada). Reason being i do not believe jiraiya would get into sm and youd see why, i will explain the reason why jiraiya was able to get into sm against pein along the way;
We know that majority of fights take place in open space and only a minority of fights take place in an enclosed space. Only examples i can think of is the chunnin exam fights and sasori vs chiyo and sakura. The chances of this fight taking place in open space is very plausible. We also know that kisame before he fights creates a large amount of water in order to feel right at home.
Against team gai;
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Against bee;
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There is a high chance that if these two meet in would be in open space but going by kisame's fighting style, they would be fighting in water. I believe this is very accurate.
Jiraiya would need sm to defeat a fellow ninja who defeated the 4 tailed jinchrucki and complained about a being a little tired. He also defeat bee who was saved at the last moment. But jiraiya cannot get into sm again kisame and this is why. Jiraiya was able to get into sm against pein because nagato used 1/6 of his power (animal realm only);
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If nagato had used all his power and summoned the 6 path, jiraiya wouldve been defeated in base. Secondly the environment greatly helped him. The environment was made up of hiding places in which he was allowed to enter and activate sm;
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Jiraiya had the advantage of nagato fighting with only 1/6 of his power, but also had places to hide in order to activate sm. How many fights have we seen where there are places to hide. In most fighting scenes there isnt a place to hide. Against kisame he doesnt have this advantage.
Now alot of people would say he can summon a toad of army to fight for him whilst he gets into sm. There are a couple of things wrong with this, first of all summoning technique takes alot of chakra depending on the size and quantity of the summonings. We saw in part 1 that naruto himself has a high chakra reserve and infact gets a 4/5 in the databook;
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. We also saw how much clones he can create with his chakra;
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But even he needed the fox's chakra in order to able to summon gamabunta;
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Jiraiya pushed him off a cliff all in the hope that the fear of death would lead him to use the fox's chakra in order to summon gamabunta;
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Fox's chakra;
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Gamabunta summoned;
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Similarly against gaara, it was because of the fox that allowed naruto to summon gamabunta;
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Similarly before minato was able to transport the fox and himself out of konoha he said he needed to master enough chakra;
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What im trying to say is that summoning techniques or s/t techniques that transports large size's of objects take a huge chunk of the users chakra, depending on the size and quantity and this is one of the reasons i believe this is jiraiya just summoned 1 frog because if he was to summon 2 more making it 3, he wouldnt be able to get into sm because 3 huge frogs would take roughly 2/3 of his chakra and with this cannot go into sm. People seem to forget the requirement of sm therefore let me explain.
Chakra is made up of physical and spiritual energy and both combined is what allows a ninja to use ninjutsu. Sm DOESNT grant the user infinate chakra but rather the user combines natural energy with their chakra (physical and spiritual) which enhances their techniques (ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjutsu);
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Now sm as i said is a combinaion of your chakra (spiritual and physical) and natural energy. Now as its been said keeping all three balanced in nearly impossible. Too little and you cannot use sm. Too much and you'd turn into a frog;
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This is why its for people with high chakra reserve, so that they can balance the natural energy with their chakra;
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If jiraiya has already used alot of his chakra on summonings and was to use sm, his little chakra left isnt enough to balance it with natural energy. He is bound to turn into a frog. Lets not forget that jiraiya receives part transformation already because he hasnt mastered it;
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If you add the fact that he would be low on chakra, he is bound to turn into a frog.
Lets say jiraiya summons. First of all large summons arent effective against ninja's, but here we go. From what we know of kisame before he fights he creates large mass of water. Therefore its likely that if jiraiya was to summon gamabunta and 2 other toads his lower body (feet) would be in water. If kisame was to summon sharks;
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Or;
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Then can easily nibble on gamabunta's feet. Gamabunta and jiraiya's collabination techniques are fire techniques and against one of the best if not the best suiton user in the series with a stupidly large chakra reserve, he is countering this. Kisame has also shown great strength with large animals, which leads me to believe that he can out muscle gamabunta;
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Could argue gamabunta is bigger though U_U. More of kisame's strength feats;
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If jiraiay was to collaborate with the frog's gamabunta;
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Kisame can use;
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Not only is suiton > katon, kisame attack would greatly do damage because jiraiya's attack is made of chakra
Apparently jiraiya can use this technique to stall kisame. Swamp of the underworld;
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First of all that attack is only useful to stop large targets, but also kisame due to his water release ninjutsu's can float above the technique;
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He can also manoeuvre in the swamp of the underworld with his Doton Subterranean Voyage
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People also think that kisame is just a suiton element user.
Kisame is a doton and suiton element user;
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Jiraiya is a katon and doton user;
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Kisame's (suiton) > jiraiya (katon). Both are doton users, but the only problem is that both have only used one earth release technique. Jiraiya's being the swamp of the underworld and kisame's being Doton Subterranean Voyage
If jiraiya was to use;
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We do know that due to kisame's stupidly high chakra reserve's can create his own water. We also know that the oeso****us is a wall of meat. Are you telling me that techniques such as;
Water release 5 feeding sharks
Water release, 'ten thousand FEEDING sharks' cannot devour the wall of MEAT;
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. 1000 feeding shark will easily fill up the technique and either eat their way out of the technique therefore kisame escapes or they can eat devour the technique along with jiraiya
Water Release: Great Exploding Water Colliding Wave (technique he used on bee, the raccoon and the other guy. Such amount of water is bound to eventually make the wall of meet explode. Infact if kisame was to use such a technique in the oeso****us he could turn jiraiya's technique against him because if the oeso****us is filled with water, jiraiya cannot breath underwater whilst kisame can. if he fuses with samahada his speed and strength increases whilst inside the water in the oeso****us, jiraiya's best bet is to release the techique in order for the water to escape, but also allow him to breath );
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If needed Water Release: Great Shark Bullet Technique (technique he used on gai but didnt prove effective because gai's uses taijutsu. Read exactly what how the technique works);
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Alot of people can say jiraiya can use oil technique, but we know that the isnt doing any good. If lets say jiraiya was to use his oil technique (similar way bee did with his ink) in order to get away from kisame;
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in order to use sm, kisame fused with samahada can sense chakra in the water;
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Finally whilst jiraiya starts in base, kisame can upgrade in seconds into his very own sm when he fuses with samahada. After when he fuses he gains sensory abilities, speed and strength upgrade. Just like sage mode. Whilst jiraiya is in base. Lets not underrate kisame's speed and pursuing abilities;
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He didnt give bee any breathing space at all (literally) and was all over him. Now if bee another top class ninja suffered this much and he was in v2 tailed beast mode, tell me what jiraiya in base mode can do. All of what ive explained is why i believe kisame would beat jiraiya, because he wouldnt be able to get into sm.
Scenario 2- This is if jiraiya gets in SM. Highly unlikely imo, but i like to compromise. So basically its sm jiraiya vs kisame fused with samahada. As i noted earlier they have similar abilities in their enhanced form.
Jiraiya in sm has frog katas and the frog genjutsu but neither would work on kisame for different reasons. First of all frog katas is taijutsu. We saw during base kisame vs 7 gates gai that taijutsu isnt doing kisame in base any harm therefore fused with samahada it definitely isnt doing much;
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Secondly afternoon tiger was said to be a 1 hit k.0 technique and i need not show you that kisame wasnt exactly dead. Infact he had more than enough energy to break free from yamato's mokouton. If 7 gates gai's taijutsu which i believe is superior in speed and strength to frog kata's isnt doing any harm to kisame, frog katas isnt either;
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If for whatever reason he gets damaged with frog katas he gain recover;
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As he said the stronger his opponent, the stronger he becomes. I never tire and i never fall
Secondly the frog genjutsu can be countered. Firstly its a sound genjutsu, meaning if you cannot hear it you cannot be caught. Secodnly it can be cancelled. But lets talk about the environment in which jiraiya used it against the paths. Jiraiya was in a tunnel when he used the frog genjutsu. Now we know that in a tunnel, sound would echo and with this increases the volume. Meaning the technique becomes louder and therefore stronger;
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In open space, in most battles there isnt such a hideout to use this genjutsu. Secondly in open space sound volume decreases and going by the frogs reaction, they do not have not only like using this genjutsu, but also they dont have the voice to increase the volume of the technique;
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Now as i said its a sound genjutsu which takes effect through your hearing. But you see kisame being underwater and the frog being on surface, kisame would easily evade the genjutsu because depending on the volume and how deep kisame is underwater he cannot hear sound on the surface;
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Now im no saying for definite that kisame > jiraiya because only kishi has the answer to that. What i am saying is that if you look at his abilities and what he has accomplished, defeating the 4 tailed jinchrucki and complaining about being a little bit tired but also defeating bee (who i think should beat jiraiya), i believe kisame is greatly underrated and whenever i see a thread including him and jiraiya people only mention what he says in part 1 and totally forget his impressive feats in part2. After all its in part 2 that we finally saw what he is made of.
Damn this took long. Please read and savour everything
1.when you siad "kisame before he fights he creates large mass of water"
and jiraiya summon for example gamabunte and with him they can jump to huge hight to anthor place to avoid the water jiraiya is not stupid he wll not fight i the environment that give to kisame advantage.
2.why that jiraiya will try to use katon on a suiton user he has more attacks.
3.swamp of the under world is not only affective on large targets it also very affective on regular targets.Doton Subterranean Voyage is only c rank you really think it can overcome A rank jutsu, that mean that if he caught with this jutsu he probably dead fish.
4.kisame can never do the same to gamabunta as he did to this ponta cause gamabunta is enormous trees look small compare to him gamabunta blade is probably the size of this ponta.
5.you show that kisame said "the stronger my oppenet the stronger I myself become" so base on that he can beat sage of six path-no... he can not...
6.you show that kisame said that he defeated the 4 tailed jinchrucki and complained about a being a little tired" kisame is the best shinobi against jinchrucki because most of them uses the power of their bijuu that is pure chakra power perfect for samehada to absorb their chakra and weakn the them.
7.jiraiya's oil not work like killer B's ink it is offensive attack that prevents enemy from moving this attack effective against a lot of shinobi.
8.you forgot that gamabunta is a suiton user to, and can shot his enormous gun shot jutsu to destroy other kisame's suiton jutsus.
jiraiya has more jutsus than kisame has and they can destroy kisame like twin rasengan or the giant rasengan, his hair jutsu for defence and attack and jiraiya to can take kisame to his environment with jutsu like Toad Gourd Prison when there is no escape moreover than that jiraiya can use Food Cart Destroyer Technique that would smash kisame.
*sigh* i thought my thread creating days was over, but recently ive been forced to create a few. What i will say is that before you repeat what kisame said in part 1, bare in mind that, not only has everybody gotten stronger in part 2 we have seen more techniques demonstrated, Infact this this the thread for you on this issue;
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. Basically come up with strong arguments instead of this. Similarly dont say because gai > klisame, jiraiya > kisame. If thats the case, then kisame > bee, gai > kisame, are you telling me gai > bee, off course not. Neither logic in this thread is needed so it would be best to leave it out U_U.
Im going to talk about 2 possible scenario's going by techniques shown so far. The first one being base jiraiya vs kisame (fused with samahada) and sm jiraiya vs kisame (fused with samahada).
Scenario 1 - Base jiraiya vs kisame (fused with samahada). Reason being i do not believe jiraiya would get into sm and youd see why, i will explain the reason why jiraiya was able to get into sm against pein along the way;
We know that majority of fights take place in open space and only a minority of fights take place in an enclosed space. Only examples i can think of is the chunnin exam fights and sasori vs chiyo and sakura. The chances of this fight taking place in open space is very plausible. We also know that kisame before he fights creates a large amount of water in order to feel right at home.
Against team gai;
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Against bee;
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There is a high chance that if these two meet in would be in open space but going by kisame's fighting style, they would be fighting in water. I believe this is very accurate.
Jiraiya would need sm to defeat a fellow ninja who defeated the 4 tailed jinchrucki and complained about a being a little tired. He also defeat bee who was saved at the last moment. But jiraiya cannot get into sm again kisame and this is why. Jiraiya was able to get into sm against pein because nagato used 1/6 of his power (animal realm only);
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If nagato had used all his power and summoned the 6 path, jiraiya wouldve been defeated in base. Secondly the environment greatly helped him. The environment was made up of hiding places in which he was allowed to enter and activate sm;
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Jiraiya had the advantage of nagato fighting with only 1/6 of his power, but also had places to hide in order to activate sm. How many fights have we seen where there are places to hide. In most fighting scenes there isnt a place to hide. Against kisame he doesnt have this advantage.
Now alot of people would say he can summon a toad of army to fight for him whilst he gets into sm. There are a couple of things wrong with this, first of all summoning technique takes alot of chakra depending on the size and quantity of the summonings. We saw in part 1 that naruto himself has a high chakra reserve and infact gets a 4/5 in the databook;
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. We also saw how much clones he can create with his chakra;
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But even he needed the fox's chakra in order to able to summon gamabunta;
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Jiraiya pushed him off a cliff all in the hope that the fear of death would lead him to use the fox's chakra in order to summon gamabunta;
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Fox's chakra;
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Gamabunta summoned;
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Similarly against gaara, it was because of the fox that allowed naruto to summon gamabunta;
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Similarly before minato was able to transport the fox and himself out of konoha he said he needed to master enough chakra;
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What im trying to say is that summoning techniques or s/t techniques that transports large size's of objects take a huge chunk of the users chakra, depending on the size and quantity and this is one of the reasons i believe this is jiraiya just summoned 1 frog because if he was to summon 2 more making it 3, he wouldnt be able to get into sm because 3 huge frogs would take roughly 2/3 of his chakra and with this cannot go into sm. People seem to forget the requirement of sm therefore let me explain.
Chakra is made up of physical and spiritual energy and both combined is what allows a ninja to use ninjutsu. Sm DOESNT grant the user infinate chakra but rather the user combines natural energy with their chakra (physical and spiritual) which enhances their techniques (ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjutsu);
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Now sm as i said is a combinaion of your chakra (spiritual and physical) and natural energy. Now as its been said keeping all three balanced in nearly impossible. Too little and you cannot use sm. Too much and you'd turn into a frog;
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This is why its for people with high chakra reserve, so that they can balance the natural energy with their chakra;
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If jiraiya has already used alot of his chakra on summonings and was to use sm, his little chakra left isnt enough to balance it with natural energy. He is bound to turn into a frog. Lets not forget that jiraiya receives part transformation already because he hasnt mastered it;
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If you add the fact that he would be low on chakra, he is bound to turn into a frog.
Lets say jiraiya summons. First of all large summons arent effective against ninja's, but here we go. From what we know of kisame before he fights he creates large mass of water. Therefore its likely that if jiraiya was to summon gamabunta and 2 other toads his lower body (feet) would be in water. If kisame was to summon sharks;
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Or;
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Then can easily nibble on gamabunta's feet. Gamabunta and jiraiya's collabination techniques are fire techniques and against one of the best if not the best suiton user in the series with a stupidly large chakra reserve, he is countering this. Kisame has also shown great strength with large animals, which leads me to believe that he can out muscle gamabunta;
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Could argue gamabunta is bigger though U_U. More of kisame's strength feats;
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If jiraiay was to collaborate with the frog's gamabunta;
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Kisame can use;
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Not only is suiton > katon, kisame attack would greatly do damage because jiraiya's attack is made of chakra
Apparently jiraiya can use this technique to stall kisame. Swamp of the underworld;
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First of all that attack is only useful to stop large targets, but also kisame due to his water release ninjutsu's can float above the technique;
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He can also manoeuvre in the swamp of the underworld with his Doton Subterranean Voyage
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People also think that kisame is just a suiton element user.
Kisame is a doton and suiton element user;
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Jiraiya is a katon and doton user;
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Kisame's (suiton) > jiraiya (katon). Both are doton users, but the only problem is that both have only used one earth release technique. Jiraiya's being the swamp of the underworld and kisame's being Doton Subterranean Voyage
If jiraiya was to use;
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We do know that due to kisame's stupidly high chakra reserve's can create his own water. We also know that the oeso****us is a wall of meat. Are you telling me that techniques such as;
Water release 5 feeding sharks
Water release, 'ten thousand FEEDING sharks' cannot devour the wall of MEAT;
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. 1000 feeding shark will easily fill up the technique and either eat their way out of the technique therefore kisame escapes or they can eat devour the technique along with jiraiya
Water Release: Great Exploding Water Colliding Wave (technique he used on bee, the raccoon and the other guy. Such amount of water is bound to eventually make the wall of meet explode. Infact if kisame was to use such a technique in the oeso****us he could turn jiraiya's technique against him because if the oeso****us is filled with water, jiraiya cannot breath underwater whilst kisame can. if he fuses with samahada his speed and strength increases whilst inside the water in the oeso****us, jiraiya's best bet is to release the techique in order for the water to escape, but also allow him to breath );
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If needed Water Release: Great Shark Bullet Technique (technique he used on gai but didnt prove effective because gai's uses taijutsu. Read exactly what how the technique works);
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Alot of people can say jiraiya can use oil technique, but we know that the isnt doing any good. If lets say jiraiya was to use his oil technique (similar way bee did with his ink) in order to get away from kisame;
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in order to use sm, kisame fused with samahada can sense chakra in the water;
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Finally whilst jiraiya starts in base, kisame can upgrade in seconds into his very own sm when he fuses with samahada. After when he fuses he gains sensory abilities, speed and strength upgrade. Just like sage mode. Whilst jiraiya is in base. Lets not underrate kisame's speed and pursuing abilities;
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He didnt give bee any breathing space at all (literally) and was all over him. Now if bee another top class ninja suffered this much and he was in v2 tailed beast mode, tell me what jiraiya in base mode can do. All of what ive explained is why i believe kisame would beat jiraiya, because he wouldnt be able to get into sm.
Scenario 2- This is if jiraiya gets in SM. Highly unlikely imo, but i like to compromise. So basically its sm jiraiya vs kisame fused with samahada. As i noted earlier they have similar abilities in their enhanced form.
Jiraiya in sm has frog katas and the frog genjutsu but neither would work on kisame for different reasons. First of all frog katas is taijutsu. We saw during base kisame vs 7 gates gai that taijutsu isnt doing kisame in base any harm therefore fused with samahada it definitely isnt doing much;
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Secondly afternoon tiger was said to be a 1 hit k.0 technique and i need not show you that kisame wasnt exactly dead. Infact he had more than enough energy to break free from yamato's mokouton. If 7 gates gai's taijutsu which i believe is superior in speed and strength to frog kata's isnt doing any harm to kisame, frog katas isnt either;
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If for whatever reason he gets damaged with frog katas he gain recover;
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As he said the stronger his opponent, the stronger he becomes. I never tire and i never fall
Secondly the frog genjutsu can be countered. Firstly its a sound genjutsu, meaning if you cannot hear it you cannot be caught. Secodnly it can be cancelled. But lets talk about the environment in which jiraiya used it against the paths. Jiraiya was in a tunnel when he used the frog genjutsu. Now we know that in a tunnel, sound would echo and with this increases the volume. Meaning the technique becomes louder and therefore stronger;
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In open space, in most battles there isnt such a hideout to use this genjutsu. Secondly in open space sound volume decreases and going by the frogs reaction, they do not have not only like using this genjutsu, but also they dont have the voice to increase the volume of the technique;
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Now as i said its a sound genjutsu which takes effect through your hearing. But you see kisame being underwater and the frog being on surface, kisame would easily evade the genjutsu because depending on the volume and how deep kisame is underwater he cannot hear sound on the surface;
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Now im no saying for definite that kisame > jiraiya because only kishi has the answer to that. What i am saying is that if you look at his abilities and what he has accomplished, defeating the 4 tailed jinchrucki and complaining about being a little bit tired but also defeating bee (who i think should beat jiraiya), i believe kisame is greatly underrated and whenever i see a thread including him and jiraiya people only mention what he says in part 1 and totally forget his impressive feats in part2. After all its in part 2 that we finally saw what he is made of.
Damn this took long. Please read and savour everything
I've read several of your threads and they've turned out to be bullshit. I wont even bother with this one. Goodluck on your theory, and whatever its based on
I've read several of your threads and they've turned out to be bullshit. I wont even bother with this one. Goodluck on your theory, and whatever its based on
Blaze, i like you man and i think you are one of the best forum participants in NB but in this thread i seem to notice that you are completely biased. You have said multiple times that there are no good arguments that support Jiraiya's victory but many times i have seen people make valid arguments, even in an earlier post of mine. I'm not trying to flame or troll bro but you are kinda bein one sided
1.when you siad "kisame before he fights he creates large mass of water"
and jiraiya summon for example gamabunte and with him they can jump to huge hight to anthor place to avoid the water jiraiya is not stupid he wll not fight i the environment that give to kisame advantage.
2.why that jiraiya will try to use katon on a suiton user he has more attacks.
3.swamp of the under world is not only affective on large targets it also very affective on regular targets.Doton Subterranean Voyage is only c rank you really think it can overcome A rank jutsu, that mean that if he caught with this jutsu he probably dead fish.
4.kisame can never do the same to gamabunta as he did to this ponta cause gamabunta is enormous trees look small compare to him gamabunta blade is probably the size of this ponta.
5.you show that kisame said "the stronger my oppenet the stronger I myself become" so base on that he can beat sage of six path-no... he can not...
6.you show that kisame said that he defeated the 4 tailed jinchrucki and complained about a being a little tired" kisame is the best shinobi against jinchrucki because most of them uses the power of their bijuu that is pure chakra power perfect for samehada to absorb their chakra and weakn the them.
7.jiraiya's oil not work like killer B's ink it is offensive attack that prevents enemy from moving this attack effective against a lot of shinobi.
8.you forgot that gamabunta is a suiton user to, and can shot his enormous gun shot jutsu to destroy other kisame's suiton jutsus.
jiraiya has more jutsus than kisame has and they can destroy kisame like twin rasengan or the giant rasengan, his hair jutsu for defence and attack and jiraiya to can take kisame to his environment with jutsu like Toad Gourd Prison when there is no escape moreover than that jiraiya can use Food Cart Destroyer Technique that would smash kisame.
the only argument that people well raise at you is training doesn't mean that he is strong, example the post in between mine and your's xd
