Blaze Release
Active member
*sigh* i thought my thread creating days was over, but recently ive been forced to create a few. What i will say is that before you repeat what kisame said in part 1, bare in mind that, not only has everybody gotten stronger in part 2 we have seen more techniques demonstrated, Infact this this the thread for you on this issue;
Im going to talk about 2 possible scenario's going by techniques shown so far. The first one being base jiraiya vs kisame (fused with samahada) and sm jiraiya vs kisame (fused with samahada).
Scenario 1 - Base jiraiya vs kisame (fused with samahada). Reason being i do not believe jiraiya would get into sm and youd see why, i will explain the reason why jiraiya was able to get into sm against pein along the way;
Scenario 2- This is if jiraiya gets in SM. Highly unlikely imo, but i like to compromise. So basically its sm jiraiya vs kisame fused with samahada. As i noted earlier they have similar abilities in their enhanced form.
Now im no saying for definite that kisame > jiraiya because only kishi has the answer to that. What i am saying is that if you look at his abilities and what he has accomplished, defeating the 4 tailed jinchrucki and complaining about being a little bit tired but also defeating bee (who i think should beat jiraiya), i believe kisame is greatly underrated and whenever i see a thread including him and jiraiya people only mention what he says in part 1 and totally forget his impressive feats in part2. After all its in part 2 that we finally saw what he is made of.
Damn this took long. Please read and savour everything
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. Basically come up with strong arguments instead of this. Similarly dont say because gai > klisame, jiraiya > kisame. If thats the case, then kisame > bee, gai > kisame, are you telling me gai > bee, off course not. Neither logic in this thread is needed so it would be best to leave it out U_U.Im going to talk about 2 possible scenario's going by techniques shown so far. The first one being base jiraiya vs kisame (fused with samahada) and sm jiraiya vs kisame (fused with samahada).
Scenario 1 - Base jiraiya vs kisame (fused with samahada). Reason being i do not believe jiraiya would get into sm and youd see why, i will explain the reason why jiraiya was able to get into sm against pein along the way;
We know that majority of fights take place in open space and only a minority of fights take place in an enclosed space. Only examples i can think of is the chunnin exam fights and sasori vs chiyo and sakura. The chances of this fight taking place in open space is very plausible. We also know that kisame before he fights creates a large amount of water in order to feel right at home.
Jiraiya would need sm to defeat a fellow ninja who defeated the 4 tailed jinchrucki and complained about a being a little tired. He also defeat bee who was saved at the last moment. But jiraiya cannot get into sm again kisame and this is why. Jiraiya was able to get into sm against pein because nagato used 1/6 of his power (animal realm only);
If nagato had used all his power and summoned the 6 path, jiraiya wouldve been defeated in base. Secondly the environment greatly helped him. The environment was made up of hiding places in which he was allowed to enter and activate sm;
Jiraiya had the advantage of nagato fighting with only 1/6 of his power, but also had places to hide in order to activate sm. How many fights have we seen where there are places to hide. In most fighting scenes there isnt a place to hide. Against kisame he doesnt have this advantage.
Now alot of people would say he can summon a toad of army to fight for him whilst he gets into sm. There are a couple of things wrong with this, first of all summoning technique takes alot of chakra depending on the size and quantity of the summonings. We saw in part 1 that naruto himself has a high chakra reserve and infact gets a 4/5 in the databook;
But even he needed the fox's chakra in order to able to summon gamabunta;
Jiraiya pushed him off a cliff all in the hope that the fear of death would lead him to use the fox's chakra in order to summon gamabunta;
Fox's chakra;
Gamabunta summoned;
Similarly against gaara, it was because of the fox that allowed naruto to summon gamabunta;
Similarly before minato was able to transport the fox and himself out of konoha he said he needed to master enough chakra;
What im trying to say is that summoning techniques or s/t techniques that transports large size's of objects take a huge chunk of the users chakra, depending on the size and quantity and this is one of the reasons i believe this is jiraiya just summoned 1 frog because if he was to summon 2 more making it 3, he wouldnt be able to get into sm because 3 huge frogs would take roughly 2/3 of his chakra and with this cannot go into sm. People seem to forget the requirement of sm therefore let me explain.
Chakra is made up of physical and spiritual energy and both combined is what allows a ninja to use ninjutsu. Sm DOESNT grant the user infinate chakra but rather the user combines natural energy with their chakra (physical and spiritual) which enhances their techniques (ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjutsu);
Now sm as i said is a combinaion of your chakra (spiritual and physical) and natural energy. Now as its been said keeping all three balanced in nearly impossible. Too little and you cannot use sm. Too much and you'd turn into a frog;
This is why its for people with high chakra reserve, so that they can balance the natural energy with their chakra;
If jiraiya has already used alot of his chakra on summonings and was to use sm, his little chakra left isnt enough to balance it with natural energy. He is bound to turn into a frog. Lets not forget that jiraiya receives part transformation already because he hasnt mastered it;
If you add the fact that he would be low on chakra, he is bound to turn into a frog.
Lets say jiraiya summons. First of all large summons arent effective against ninja's, but here we go. From what we know of kisame before he fights he creates large mass of water. Therefore its likely that if jiraiya was to summon gamabunta and 2 other toads his lower body (feet) would be in water. If kisame was to summon sharks;
Or;
Then can easily nibble on gamabunta's feet. Gamabunta and jiraiya's collabination techniques are fire techniques and against one of the best if not the best suiton user in the series with a stupidly large chakra reserve, he is countering this. Kisame has also shown great strength with large animals, which leads me to believe that he can out muscle gamabunta;
Could argue gamabunta is bigger though U_U. More of kisame's strength feats;
If jiraiay was to collaborate with the frog's gamabunta;
Kisame can use;
Not only is suiton > katon, kisame attack would greatly do damage because jiraiya's attack is made of chakra
Apparently jiraiya can use this technique to stall kisame. Swamp of the underworld;
First of all that attack is only useful to stop large targets, but also kisame due to his water release ninjutsu's can float above the technique;
He can also manoeuvre in the swamp of the underworld with his Doton Subterranean Voyage
People also think that kisame is just a suiton element user.
Kisame is a doton and suiton element user;
Jiraiya is a katon and doton user;
Kisame's (suiton) > jiraiya (katon). Both are doton users, but the only problem is that both have only used one earth release technique. Jiraiya's being the swamp of the underworld and kisame's being Doton Subterranean Voyage
If jiraiya was to use;
We do know that due to kisame's stupidly high chakra reserve's can create his own water. We also know that the oeso****us is a wall of meat. Are you telling me that techniques such as;
Water release 5 feeding sharks
Water release, 'ten thousand FEEDING sharks' cannot devour the wall of MEAT;
. 1000 feeding shark will easily fill up the technique and either eat their way out of the technique therefore kisame escapes or they can eat devour the technique along with jiraiya
Water Release: Great Exploding Water Colliding Wave (technique he used on bee, the raccoon and the other guy. Such amount of water is bound to eventually make the wall of meet explode. Infact if kisame was to use such a technique in the oeso****us he could turn jiraiya's technique against him because if the oeso****us is filled with water, jiraiya cannot breath underwater whilst kisame can. if he fuses with samahada his speed and strength increases whilst inside the water in the oeso****us, jiraiya's best bet is to release the techique in order for the water to escape, but also allow him to breath );
If needed Water Release: Great Shark Bullet Technique (technique he used on gai but didnt prove effective because gai's uses taijutsu. Read exactly what how the technique works);
Alot of people can say jiraiya can use oil technique, but we know that the isnt doing any good. If lets say jiraiya was to use his oil technique (similar way bee did with his ink) in order to get away from kisame;
in order to use sm, kisame fused with samahada can sense chakra in the water;
Finally whilst jiraiya starts in base, kisame can upgrade in seconds into his very own sm when he fuses with samahada. After when he fuses he gains sensory abilities, speed and strength upgrade. Just like sage mode. Whilst jiraiya is in base. Lets not underrate kisame's speed and pursuing abilities;
He didnt give bee any breathing space at all (literally) and was all over him. Now if bee another top class ninja suffered this much and he was in v2 tailed beast mode, tell me what jiraiya in base mode can do. All of what ive explained is why i believe kisame would beat jiraiya, because he wouldnt be able to get into sm.
Against team gai;
Against bee;
There is a high chance that if these two meet in would be in open space but going by kisame's fighting style, they would be fighting in water. I believe this is very accurate.
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Against bee;
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There is a high chance that if these two meet in would be in open space but going by kisame's fighting style, they would be fighting in water. I believe this is very accurate.
Jiraiya would need sm to defeat a fellow ninja who defeated the 4 tailed jinchrucki and complained about a being a little tired. He also defeat bee who was saved at the last moment. But jiraiya cannot get into sm again kisame and this is why. Jiraiya was able to get into sm against pein because nagato used 1/6 of his power (animal realm only);
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Now alot of people would say he can summon a toad of army to fight for him whilst he gets into sm. There are a couple of things wrong with this, first of all summoning technique takes alot of chakra depending on the size and quantity of the summonings. We saw in part 1 that naruto himself has a high chakra reserve and infact gets a 4/5 in the databook;
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. We also saw how much clones he can create with his chakra;
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Jiraiya pushed him off a cliff all in the hope that the fear of death would lead him to use the fox's chakra in order to summon gamabunta;
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Fox's chakra;
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Gamabunta summoned;
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Similarly before minato was able to transport the fox and himself out of konoha he said he needed to master enough chakra;
You must be registered for see images
What im trying to say is that summoning techniques or s/t techniques that transports large size's of objects take a huge chunk of the users chakra, depending on the size and quantity and this is one of the reasons i believe this is jiraiya just summoned 1 frog because if he was to summon 2 more making it 3, he wouldnt be able to get into sm because 3 huge frogs would take roughly 2/3 of his chakra and with this cannot go into sm. People seem to forget the requirement of sm therefore let me explain.
Chakra is made up of physical and spiritual energy and both combined is what allows a ninja to use ninjutsu. Sm DOESNT grant the user infinate chakra but rather the user combines natural energy with their chakra (physical and spiritual) which enhances their techniques (ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjutsu);
You must be registered for see images
Now sm as i said is a combinaion of your chakra (spiritual and physical) and natural energy. Now as its been said keeping all three balanced in nearly impossible. Too little and you cannot use sm. Too much and you'd turn into a frog;
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This is why its for people with high chakra reserve, so that they can balance the natural energy with their chakra;
You must be registered for see images
If jiraiya has already used alot of his chakra on summonings and was to use sm, his little chakra left isnt enough to balance it with natural energy. He is bound to turn into a frog. Lets not forget that jiraiya receives part transformation already because he hasnt mastered it;
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Lets say jiraiya summons. First of all large summons arent effective against ninja's, but here we go. From what we know of kisame before he fights he creates large mass of water. Therefore its likely that if jiraiya was to summon gamabunta and 2 other toads his lower body (feet) would be in water. If kisame was to summon sharks;
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Or;
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Then can easily nibble on gamabunta's feet. Gamabunta and jiraiya's collabination techniques are fire techniques and against one of the best if not the best suiton user in the series with a stupidly large chakra reserve, he is countering this. Kisame has also shown great strength with large animals, which leads me to believe that he can out muscle gamabunta;
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Could argue gamabunta is bigger though U_U. More of kisame's strength feats;
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If jiraiay was to collaborate with the frog's gamabunta;
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Kisame can use;
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Not only is suiton > katon, kisame attack would greatly do damage because jiraiya's attack is made of chakra
Apparently jiraiya can use this technique to stall kisame. Swamp of the underworld;
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First of all that attack is only useful to stop large targets, but also kisame due to his water release ninjutsu's can float above the technique;
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He can also manoeuvre in the swamp of the underworld with his Doton Subterranean Voyage
You must be registered for see links
You must be registered for see images
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People also think that kisame is just a suiton element user.
Kisame is a doton and suiton element user;
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Jiraiya is a katon and doton user;
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Kisame's (suiton) > jiraiya (katon). Both are doton users, but the only problem is that both have only used one earth release technique. Jiraiya's being the swamp of the underworld and kisame's being Doton Subterranean Voyage
If jiraiya was to use;
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We do know that due to kisame's stupidly high chakra reserve's can create his own water. We also know that the oeso****us is a wall of meat. Are you telling me that techniques such as;
Water release 5 feeding sharks
Water release, 'ten thousand FEEDING sharks' cannot devour the wall of MEAT;
You must be registered for see images
Water Release: Great Exploding Water Colliding Wave (technique he used on bee, the raccoon and the other guy. Such amount of water is bound to eventually make the wall of meet explode. Infact if kisame was to use such a technique in the oeso****us he could turn jiraiya's technique against him because if the oeso****us is filled with water, jiraiya cannot breath underwater whilst kisame can. if he fuses with samahada his speed and strength increases whilst inside the water in the oeso****us, jiraiya's best bet is to release the techique in order for the water to escape, but also allow him to breath );
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If needed Water Release: Great Shark Bullet Technique (technique he used on gai but didnt prove effective because gai's uses taijutsu. Read exactly what how the technique works);
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Alot of people can say jiraiya can use oil technique, but we know that the isnt doing any good. If lets say jiraiya was to use his oil technique (similar way bee did with his ink) in order to get away from kisame;
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in order to use sm, kisame fused with samahada can sense chakra in the water;
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Finally whilst jiraiya starts in base, kisame can upgrade in seconds into his very own sm when he fuses with samahada. After when he fuses he gains sensory abilities, speed and strength upgrade. Just like sage mode. Whilst jiraiya is in base. Lets not underrate kisame's speed and pursuing abilities;
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He didnt give bee any breathing space at all (literally) and was all over him. Now if bee another top class ninja suffered this much and he was in v2 tailed beast mode, tell me what jiraiya in base mode can do. All of what ive explained is why i believe kisame would beat jiraiya, because he wouldnt be able to get into sm.
Scenario 2- This is if jiraiya gets in SM. Highly unlikely imo, but i like to compromise. So basically its sm jiraiya vs kisame fused with samahada. As i noted earlier they have similar abilities in their enhanced form.
Jiraiya in sm has frog katas and the frog genjutsu but neither would work on kisame for different reasons. First of all frog katas is taijutsu. We saw during base kisame vs 7 gates gai that taijutsu isnt doing kisame in base any harm therefore fused with samahada it definitely isnt doing much;
Secondly afternoon tiger was said to be a 1 hit k.0 technique and i need not show you that kisame wasnt exactly dead. Infact he had more than enough energy to break free from yamato's mokouton. If 7 gates gai's taijutsu which i believe is superior in speed and strength to frog kata's isnt doing any harm to kisame, frog katas isnt either;
If for whatever reason he gets damaged with frog katas he gain recover;
As he said the stronger his opponent, the stronger he becomes. I never tire and i never fall
Secondly the frog genjutsu can be countered. Firstly its a sound genjutsu, meaning if you cannot hear it you cannot be caught. Secodnly it can be cancelled. But lets talk about the environment in which jiraiya used it against the paths. Jiraiya was in a tunnel when he used the frog genjutsu. Now we know that in a tunnel, sound would echo and with this increases the volume. Meaning the technique becomes louder and therefore stronger;
In open space, in most battles there isnt such a hideout to use this genjutsu. Secondly in open space sound volume decreases and going by the frogs reaction, they do not have not only like using this genjutsu, but also they dont have the voice to increase the volume of the technique;
Now as i said its a sound genjutsu which takes effect through your hearing. But you see kisame being underwater and the frog being on surface, kisame would easily evade the genjutsu because depending on the volume and how deep kisame is underwater he cannot hear sound on the surface;
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Secondly afternoon tiger was said to be a 1 hit k.0 technique and i need not show you that kisame wasnt exactly dead. Infact he had more than enough energy to break free from yamato's mokouton. If 7 gates gai's taijutsu which i believe is superior in speed and strength to frog kata's isnt doing any harm to kisame, frog katas isnt either;
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If for whatever reason he gets damaged with frog katas he gain recover;
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As he said the stronger his opponent, the stronger he becomes. I never tire and i never fall
Secondly the frog genjutsu can be countered. Firstly its a sound genjutsu, meaning if you cannot hear it you cannot be caught. Secodnly it can be cancelled. But lets talk about the environment in which jiraiya used it against the paths. Jiraiya was in a tunnel when he used the frog genjutsu. Now we know that in a tunnel, sound would echo and with this increases the volume. Meaning the technique becomes louder and therefore stronger;
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In open space, in most battles there isnt such a hideout to use this genjutsu. Secondly in open space sound volume decreases and going by the frogs reaction, they do not have not only like using this genjutsu, but also they dont have the voice to increase the volume of the technique;
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Now as i said its a sound genjutsu which takes effect through your hearing. But you see kisame being underwater and the frog being on surface, kisame would easily evade the genjutsu because depending on the volume and how deep kisame is underwater he cannot hear sound on the surface;
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Now im no saying for definite that kisame > jiraiya because only kishi has the answer to that. What i am saying is that if you look at his abilities and what he has accomplished, defeating the 4 tailed jinchrucki and complaining about being a little bit tired but also defeating bee (who i think should beat jiraiya), i believe kisame is greatly underrated and whenever i see a thread including him and jiraiya people only mention what he says in part 1 and totally forget his impressive feats in part2. After all its in part 2 that we finally saw what he is made of.
Damn this took long. Please read and savour everything
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