Ending the Kisame vs Jiraiya debate
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MinatoFLASH
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Dude he clearly proved his point! Kishi made Kisame say- "You can probably go against him but i dont know about me". What does this mean?? J-man wins sorry man learn to accept facts
Jiraiya because he has one of the strongest genjutsu and taijutsu in SM that will not be handled by kisame and his samehada. He also has Gamabunta or the other giant frogs with him. If Kisame has that water dome, the pervy sage has his own = frog's stomach. Worse, they might end up as frog statues
Did you not even read what Kisame said?
This all comes down to this: do I trust the character who isn't Tobia liar and had no ulterior motives? In this case, Kishi had Kisame say it. So yes, assuming he had most of, if not all of the abilities he displayed about 3 years later back then, yes, it is a fact as far as Kishimoto is concerned that Jiraiya > Kisame.Viewtiful said:
And I'm talking to Owarij Blaze, don't want you thinking I'm ignoring you or something.
I personally just go with the manga so long as it isn't contradicted with certainty. U_U
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White Zetsu
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Kisame wins with ease.Jman can't kill Kisame aslong as Kisame has Samehada with him to give him chakra because he was regenerate from any attack.SM or not Kisame wins.Only thing that Jman has to kill Kisame would be his genjutsu and his frog stomach jutsus.And genjutsu was already proven ineffective by Blaze.
This is how Kisame wins.Makes his water dome and swims around Jiraiya in circles until he drowns.What is so hard to understand about that?
Would link the manga chapters but i forgot what page.
But enough proof is there to show that Kisame was just showing a little praise towards one of the sannin.Not to mention Orochimaru used to be in Akatsuki when Kisame was there also.So odds are that Kisame thinks they are probably on an equal level and remember that the time Orochimaru used to be in Akatsuki he was alot weaker than he was later on because he didn't know much forbidden jutsu if any at all.I doubt there were romours going around that Jiraiya was any stronger than Orochimaru.Because from what I could see in all the flashbacks is that Orochimaru was always the superior one.Which is why he was suppose to be Hokage but the Third knew he was too self absorbed.
Proof that Orochimaru was weak in his Akatsuki days.13 yr old Itachi beat him in 10 secs and made Orochimaru flee.So the question is why would Itachi think Jiraiya is any stronger than Orochimaru???Exactly he wouldn't.Itachi's purpose for saying what he said was because he didn't want to kill him.Remember Itachi killed his whole clan to protect the Leaf Village in the end and with Jiraiya dead no one else would be strong enough to protect the village if it was ever under attack.Not to mention the Third Hokage recently died.And the reason Kisame said this was to just get his blood pumping a bit,but nothing more.He didn't fear Jiraiya in the least.
This is how Kisame wins.Makes his water dome and swims around Jiraiya in circles until he drowns.What is so hard to understand about that?
He was clearly just being overdramatic because he was trying to scare Itachi a little.You can see during the fight that Kisame doesn't consider Jiraiya much of a threat (atleast when Itachi is around) because when Itachi starts bullying Sasuke he turns his back to Jiraiya and watches the fight.Did you not even read what Kisame said?
This all comes down to this: do I trust the character who isn't Tobia liar and had no ulterior motives? In this case, Kishi had Kisame say it. So yes, assuming he had most of, if not all of the abilities he displayed about 3 years later back then, yes, it is a fact as far as Kishimoto is concerned that Jiraiya > Kisame.
And I'm talking to Owarij Blaze, don't want you thinking I'm ignoring you or something.
Would link the manga chapters but i forgot what page.
But enough proof is there to show that Kisame was just showing a little praise towards one of the sannin.Not to mention Orochimaru used to be in Akatsuki when Kisame was there also.So odds are that Kisame thinks they are probably on an equal level and remember that the time Orochimaru used to be in Akatsuki he was alot weaker than he was later on because he didn't know much forbidden jutsu if any at all.I doubt there were romours going around that Jiraiya was any stronger than Orochimaru.Because from what I could see in all the flashbacks is that Orochimaru was always the superior one.Which is why he was suppose to be Hokage but the Third knew he was too self absorbed.
Proof that Orochimaru was weak in his Akatsuki days.13 yr old Itachi beat him in 10 secs and made Orochimaru flee.So the question is why would Itachi think Jiraiya is any stronger than Orochimaru???Exactly he wouldn't.Itachi's purpose for saying what he said was because he didn't want to kill him.Remember Itachi killed his whole clan to protect the Leaf Village in the end and with Jiraiya dead no one else would be strong enough to protect the village if it was ever under attack.Not to mention the Third Hokage recently died.And the reason Kisame said this was to just get his blood pumping a bit,but nothing more.He didn't fear Jiraiya in the least.
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acdcrockgods
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blazekev90
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i was gonna say the same thing, but blaze be hating on Oro so it would probably be bias as hell lol
He wasn't being overly dramatic. -_- That wasn't even implied. Just because he was willing to fight him didn't mean he thought he could win. I can't point out how many times in the series that has happened. Naruto was willing to join in the fight with the Sannin in Part 1, but does that indicate ANYTHING in regards to him thinking they're not a threat? Heck to the no. Sense, this be not making.
Except he wasn't. He literally said he couldn't beat Jiraiya. It wasn't because he was a Sannin. And Orochimaru has little to do with this. For example, just because, say, Hidan is an Akatsuki member, it doesn't mean someone else is going to believe that he's comparable to say, Itachi, simply because they're both members. And nothing indicates Oro was "a lot weaker". The reason Hiruzen wanted him to be it was because he apparently "admired the genius he had".
Itachi simply acted quickly by putting him in a Genjutsu after cutting off his hand so that he couldn't escape it by using additional pain.
Again, people get things twisted a lot. Just because Jiraiya > Kisame and =Itachi, that doesn't mean Orochimaru is the same.
Match ups don't work that way due to different abilities and techniques that are more or less effective against certain skill sets.
And Kisame started that conversation by saying he couldn't win. Itachi may or may not have believed that, but Kisame without a doubt did. And I, nor Kisame, ever said that he feared Jiraiya, just that he couldn't beat him.
*sigh* i thought my thread creating days was over, but recently ive been forced to create a few. What i will say is that before you repeat what kisame said in part 1, bare in mind that, not only has everybody gotten stronger in part 2 we have seen more techniques demonstrated, Infact this this the thread for you on this issue;You must be registered for see links. Basically come up with strong arguments instead of this. Similarly dont say because gai > klisame, jiraiya > kisame. If thats the case, then kisame > bee, gai > kisame, are you telling me gai > bee, off course not. Neither logic in this thread is needed so it would be best to leave it out U_U.
Im going to talk about 2 possible scenario's going by techniques shown so far. The first one being base jiraiya vs kisame (fused with samahada) and sm jiraiya vs kisame (fused with samahada).
Scenario 1 - Base jiraiya vs kisame (fused with samahada). Reason being i do not believe jiraiya would get into sm and youd see why, i will explain the reason why jiraiya was able to get into sm against pein along the way;
We know that majority of fights take place in open space and only a minority of fights take place in an enclosed space. Only examples i can think of is the chunnin exam fights and sasori vs chiyo and sakura. The chances of this fight taking place in open space is very plausible. We also know that kisame before he fights creates a large amount of water in order to feel right at home.
Against team gai;
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Against bee;
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There is a high chance that if these two meet in would be in open space but going by kisame's fighting style, they would be fighting in water. I believe this is very accurate.
Jiraiya would need sm to defeat a fellow ninja who defeated the 4 tailed jinchrucki and complained about a being a little tired. He also defeat bee who was saved at the last moment. But jiraiya cannot get into sm again kisame and this is why. Jiraiya was able to get into sm against pein because nagato used 1/6 of his power (animal realm only);If nagato had used all his power and summoned the 6 path, jiraiya wouldve been defeated in base. Secondly the environment greatly helped him. The environment was made up of hiding places in which he was allowed to enter and activate sm;You must be registered for see images
Jiraiya had the advantage of nagato fighting with only 1/6 of his power, but also had places to hide in order to activate sm. How many fights have we seen where there are places to hide. In most fighting scenes there isnt a place to hide. Against kisame he doesnt have this advantage.You must be registered for see images
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Now alot of people would say he can summon a toad of army to fight for him whilst he gets into sm. There are a couple of things wrong with this, first of all summoning technique takes alot of chakra depending on the size and quantity of the summonings. We saw in part 1 that naruto himself has a high chakra reserve and infact gets a 4/5 in the databook;
You must be registered for see links. We also saw how much clones he can create with his chakra;
But even he needed the fox's chakra in order to able to summon gamabunta;You must be registered for see images
Similarly against gaara, it was because of the fox that allowed naruto to summon gamabunta;You must be registered for see images
Jiraiya pushed him off a cliff all in the hope that the fear of death would lead him to use the fox's chakra in order to summon gamabunta;
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Fox's chakra;
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Gamabunta summoned;
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Similarly before minato was able to transport the fox and himself out of konoha he said he needed to master enough chakra;
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What im trying to say is that summoning techniques or s/t techniques that transports large size's of objects take a huge chunk of the users chakra, depending on the size and quantity and this is one of the reasons i believe this is jiraiya just summoned 1 frog because if he was to summon 2 more making it 3, he wouldnt be able to get into sm because 3 huge frogs would take roughly 2/3 of his chakra and with this cannot go into sm. People seem to forget the requirement of sm therefore let me explain.
Chakra is made up of physical and spiritual energy and both combined is what allows a ninja to use ninjutsu. Sm DOESNT grant the user infinate chakra but rather the user combines natural energy with their chakra (physical and spiritual) which enhances their techniques (ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjutsu);
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Now sm as i said is a combinaion of your chakra (spiritual and physical) and natural energy. Now as its been said keeping all three balanced in nearly impossible. Too little and you cannot use sm. Too much and you'd turn into a frog;
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This is why its for people with high chakra reserve, so that they can balance the natural energy with their chakra;
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If jiraiya has already used alot of his chakra on summonings and was to use sm, his little chakra left isnt enough to balance it with natural energy. He is bound to turn into a frog. Lets not forget that jiraiya receives part transformation already because he hasnt mastered it;If you add the fact that he would be low on chakra, he is bound to turn into a frog.You must be registered for see images
Lets say jiraiya summons. First of all large summons arent effective against ninja's, but here we go. From what we know of kisame before he fights he creates large mass of water. Therefore its likely that if jiraiya was to summon gamabunta and 2 other toads his lower body (feet) would be in water. If kisame was to summon sharks;You must be registered for see images
Or;You must be registered for see images
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Then can easily nibble on gamabunta's feet. Gamabunta and jiraiya's collabination techniques are fire techniques and against one of the best if not the best suiton user in the series with a stupidly large chakra reserve, he is countering this. Kisame has also shown great strength with large animals, which leads me to believe that he can out muscle gamabunta;
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Could argue gamabunta is bigger though U_U. More of kisame's strength feats;You must be registered for see links
If jiraiay was to collaborate with the frog's gamabunta;
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Kisame can use;
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Not only is suiton > katon, kisame attack would greatly do damage because jiraiya's attack is made of chakra
Apparently jiraiya can use this technique to stall kisame. Swamp of the underworld;
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First of all that attack is only useful to stop large targets, but also kisame due to his water release ninjutsu's can float above the technique;You must be registered for see images
He can also manoeuvre in the swamp of the underworld with his Doton Subterranean VoyageYou must be registered for see links
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People also think that kisame is just a suiton element user.
Kisame is a doton and suiton element user;You must be registered for see links
Jiraiya is a katon and doton user;
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Kisame's (suiton) > jiraiya (katon). Both are doton users, but the only problem is that both have only used one earth release technique. Jiraiya's being the swamp of the underworld and kisame's being Doton Subterranean Voyage
If jiraiya was to use;
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We do know that due to kisame's stupidly high chakra reserve's can create his own water. We also know that the oeso****us is a wall of meat. Are you telling me that techniques such as;
Water release 5 feeding sharks
Water release, 'ten thousand FEEDING sharks' cannot devour the wall of MEAT;. 1000 feeding shark will easily fill up the technique and either eat their way out of the technique therefore kisame escapes or they can eat devour the technique along with jiraiyaYou must be registered for see images
Water Release: Great Exploding Water Colliding Wave (technique he used on bee, the raccoon and the other guy. Such amount of water is bound to eventually make the wall of meet explode. Infact if kisame was to use such a technique in the oeso****us he could turn jiraiya's technique against him because if the oeso****us is filled with water, jiraiya cannot breath underwater whilst kisame can. if he fuses with samahada his speed and strength increases whilst inside the water in the oeso****us, jiraiya's best bet is to release the techique in order for the water to escape, but also allow him to breath );
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If needed Water Release: Great Shark Bullet Technique (technique he used on gai but didnt prove effective because gai's uses taijutsu. Read exactly what how the technique works);
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Alot of people can say jiraiya can use oil technique, but we know that the isnt doing any good. If lets say jiraiya was to use his oil technique (similar way bee did with his ink) in order to get away from kisame;
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in order to use sm, kisame fused with samahada can sense chakra in the water;
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Finally whilst jiraiya starts in base, kisame can upgrade in seconds into his very own sm when he fuses with samahada. After when he fuses he gains sensory abilities, speed and strength upgrade. Just like sage mode. Whilst jiraiya is in base. Lets not underrate kisame's speed and pursuing abilities;
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He didnt give bee any breathing space at all (literally) and was all over him. Now if bee another top class ninja suffered this much and he was in v2 tailed beast mode, tell me what jiraiya in base mode can do. All of what ive explained is why i believe kisame would beat jiraiya, because he wouldnt be able to get into sm.
Scenario 2- This is if jiraiya gets in SM. Highly unlikely imo, but i like to compromise. So basically its sm jiraiya vs kisame fused with samahada. As i noted earlier they have similar abilities in their enhanced form.
Jiraiya in sm has frog katas and the frog genjutsu but neither would work on kisame for different reasons. First of all frog katas is taijutsu. We saw during base kisame vs 7 gates gai that taijutsu isnt doing kisame in base any harm therefore fused with samahada it definitely isnt doing much;You must be registered for see images
Secondly afternoon tiger was said to be a 1 hit k.0 technique and i need not show you that kisame wasnt exactly dead. Infact he had more than enough energy to break free from yamato's mokouton. If 7 gates gai's taijutsu which i believe is superior in speed and strength to frog kata's isnt doing any harm to kisame, frog katas isnt either;
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If for whatever reason he gets damaged with frog katas he gain recover;
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As he said the stronger his opponent, the stronger he becomes. I never tire and i never fall
Secondly the frog genjutsu can be countered. Firstly its a sound genjutsu, meaning if you cannot hear it you cannot be caught. Secodnly it can be cancelled. But lets talk about the environment in which jiraiya used it against the paths. Jiraiya was in a tunnel when he used the frog genjutsu. Now we know that in a tunnel, sound would echo and with this increases the volume. Meaning the technique becomes louder and therefore stronger;
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In open space, in most battles there isnt such a hideout to use this genjutsu. Secondly in open space sound volume decreases and going by the frogs reaction, they do not have not only like using this genjutsu, but also they dont have the voice to increase the volume of the technique;
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Now as i said its a sound genjutsu which takes effect through your hearing. But you see kisame being underwater and the frog being on surface, kisame would easily evade the genjutsu because depending on the volume and how deep kisame is underwater he cannot hear sound on the surface;
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Now im no saying for definite that kisame > jiraiya because only kishi has the answer to that. What i am saying is that if you look at his abilities and what he has accomplished, defeating the 4 tailed jinchrucki and complaining about being a little bit tired but also defeating bee (who i think should beat jiraiya), i believe kisame is greatly underrated and whenever i see a thread including him and jiraiya people only mention what he says in part 1 and totally forget his impressive feats in part2. After all its in part 2 that we finally saw what he is made of.
Damn this took long. Please read and savour everything
sounds travels faster in water stupid!:flaw:
i'm new to NB but i read alot of threads and to be honest u made some good points but i think jiraiya got this for the fact that in sm kisame cant take his chakra and jiraiya was able to take on 6 pains aloe and kill three so i do believe he can take kisame alone and if u need anymore convincing there still this
read naruto 144 page 8
read naruto 144 page 8
White Zetsu
Member
You obviously don't get what im trying to say.Orochimaru trained with Jiraiya under the same sensei.Hiruzen knew that Orochimaru was the more talented ninja which is why he wanted Orochimaru to be Hokage but he couldn't do this because as we all know Orochimaru is a very twisted person.Okay now Kisame would know Orochimaru fairly well because he was in the same organization with him for some time.Everyone knew that Orochimaru was more talented than Jiraiya.Itachi easily defeated Jman.Why in the world would Itachi and Kisame both fear Jman so much if Orochimaru was basically a no contest against Itachi alone (while Itachi was still just a kid).
Just because Kisame says he couldn't beat Jiraiya doesn't mean he couldn't.Most likely he has never faced him in battle and doesn't know anything about his jutsu.The only thing he knows is that he is famous for being a Sannin.
Remember when Kakashi first meets Tobi??? He says it is impossible that he had S/T jutsu which were more advanced than the 4th Hokages.
In this Kakashi is clearly underestimating his opponent which he knows nothing about.Kakashi was proved to be wrong because in the end he found out that he did know better Space Time jutsu than even Minato.
It is just the opposite with Kisame he is overestimating Jman just because he is suppose to be a powerful ninja based of rumours which he heard.
Had to edit my post to put this in:Itachi>Jiraiya 100:1.Victory is as easy as Amaterasu before Jman could even comprehend what just happened.
Personal Experience Example
I went to this new school and there was this kid who was supposedly the best Basketballer in the State for his age group.I knew I was pretty good because at my old school I was the best.When me and this kid played a 1v1 I was really nervous because everything I heard about him.I was sure I was going to lose but in the end I ended up beating him pretty easy too and I realized that it was all just hype.
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Jirayaerosennin
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Obviously by name my name I will be on the side Jiraiya and I haven't been on this website for a long time to see the common consensus but I don't think Kisame could beat Jiraiya. I'm pretty sure every other person who agrees with me has pointed out every reason why they think Jiraiya would beat kisame, from the multiple titles Jiraiya held, to the subtle comments Itachi an Pein made, to the fact that he trained the 3 of the most powerful ninjas. I personally thought that some of the arguments made by you Blaze were weak especially in the first one were you are refuting the comments of what characters like Itachi made over not focusing much attention on Jiraiya; when you get into analyzing people's body parts and such you have to take into account for what purpose it has toward the story and what was the character's main intention in the scene. I think Kishi made it to be assumed that Jiraiya was one of the strongest and was on a level equal to that of kages and other legendary warriors. Also almost any board involving of Itachi will end with the result of Itachi being favored to win due to him being the most highly favored character after sasuke and naruto so I try to avoid bringing Itachi into any justification over a battle. I thought Blaze you did make a solid point that yes that its not as easy as people tend to make it that Jiraiya is magically able to turn into sage mode. But like I said the role the character played comes with the certain assumption that he could find a way. Whatever the case my be it should be left to each his own as we will never see such battles ourselves.
White Zetsu
Member
He didn't really take on 6 while killing 3.It was more like he killed 3 then they got revived + 3 more.When the 6 paths came out Jiraiya couldn't do anything.
Not to mention Nagato decided to not use his strongest Path's abilities (Deva Path) ability to defy gravity by pushing and pulling.What could Jiraiya do if Nagato Pulled him and threw 3 kunai at his face???NOTHING!!!!
Hiruzen, nor anyone else, EVER said Oro was more talented in Jiraiya when they were older, only when they weren't even official Genin yet. First off, Jiraiya was always traveling, so of course Hiruzen wasn't going to be able to make him Hokage. He was never even able to find him in his lifetime according to Ebisu. Tsunade even said that "the old man always thought you should've been Hokage..." And Kisame may have known Orochimaru as a person, but his techniques and abilities, not necessarily.
Again, no one said that Oro was more talented than Jiraiya other than when they were kids.
Itachi never beat Jiraiya.
Because match ups are never 100% true in all cases. Like I said before, just because Jiraiya = Itachi, that doesn't make Oro about the same. Abilities and techniques are more effective against certain opponents than others.
That's some BS. Why would he be wrong? If he places high doubt on the fact that between he and Itachi, only the latter stood a real chance of winning, why should we doubt what he believes about himself and his own abilities?
Not quite. When Kakashi saw it, he indeed said "Impossible..." However, unlike what you said, he didn't say that it was impossible that such a technique existed. And do you realize just how many times the words "impossible" and "unbeatable" are used in this series? He didn't underestimate him, he simply didn't think an S/T technique could go to that level.
He simply said he couldn't win. Obviously being a Sannin means he's extremely powerful, but that isn't what he complimented him for. He just didn't think he could win.
Just saying, Jiraiya can seal away Amaterasu. The flames obviously burn quite slowly given all that we've seen them do in the series.
Your experiences don't have any bearing on this, since it was written as fact by the author. >.>
White Zetsu
Member
Btw training someone to be powerful doesn't make you a great ninja at all.
You say he trained the 3 most powerful ninja correct? By that I assume you mean Naruto,Nagato and Minato???
1)Nagato- trained himself in every jutsu we've seen him use because those are obviously rinnengan only techs.He trained Nagato for about a year and only thought him basic elemental jutsu.
2)Naruto-Jman trained him in Rasengan,Summonings,how to break a genjutsu and im pretty sure that's it.
3)Minato-Summonings and that's all we know.
The one thing they all learned in common which I didn't mention aboive is his ninja way.How to try and find peaceful solutions to problems.But this obviously failed with Nagato and Nagato never really had any talent,he was gifted with the Rinnengan so everything came easy to him,so he really shouldn't be counted as one of the strongest ninja.Since he never had to earn his Rinnengan through hard work like Uchiha Madara.
White Zetsu
Member
I would love to see Jiraiya seal away the flames while they are burning all over his body.Hiruzen, nor anyone else, EVER said Oro was more talented in Jiraiya when they were older, only when they weren't even official Genin yet. First off, Jiraiya was always traveling, so of course Hiruzen wasn't going to be able to make him Hokage. He was never even able to find him in his lifetime according to Ebisu. Tsunade even said that "the old man always thought you should've been Hokage..." And Kisame may have known Orochimaru as a person, but his techniques and abilities, not necessarily.
Again, no one said that Oro was more talented than Jiraiya other than when they were kids.
Itachi never beat Jiraiya.
Because match ups are never 100% true in all cases. Like I said before, just because Jiraiya = Itachi, that doesn't make Oro about the same. Abilities and techniques are more effective against certain opponents than others.
That's some BS. Why would he be wrong? If he places high doubt on the fact that between he and Itachi, only the latter stood a real chance of winning, why should we doubt what he believes about himself and his own abilities?
Not quite. When Kakashi saw it, he indeed said "Impossible..." However, unlike what you said, he didn't say that it was impossible that such a technique existed. And do you realize just how many times the words "impossible" and "unbeatable" are used in this series? He didn't underestimate him, he simply didn't think an S/T technique could go to that level.
He simply said he couldn't win. Obviously being a Sannin means he's extremely powerful, but that isn't what he complimented him for. He just didn't think he could win.
Just saying, Jiraiya can seal away Amaterasu. The flames obviously burn quite slowly given all that we've seen them do in the series.
Your experiences don't have any bearing on this, since it was written as fact by the author. >.>
This.... this right here is the best post i have seen truly
the only argument that people well raise at you is training doesn't mean that he is strong, example the post in between mine and your's xdInk is different from oil tho, have you ever seen oil in water that doesn't kill water breaths in the water? Also ask anyonewho knows the rules of cooking, Water+oil is flammable. Jiraiya would use swamp of the underworld after Kisame use his exploding water colliding wave so he would know how big to make it. You are mistaking about the sharks, I said Jiraiya's shadow clone will attack Kisame with toad stomach as soon as it's summon. Kisame can't summon his sharks or use water shark without water and I already gave details on how Jiraiya can stop this. Kisame can't even make water clones without water, he's not on the level as the 2nd Hokage where he can make water out of no where. Kisame can only heal himeself with chakra from Samehada so if he got seperated from samehada then he will be weaken by alot. You said Jiraiya can summon 1 strong summon without hurting his chakra reserve too much right? well Jiraiya can just summon Pa toad and fuse with him (he takes to long because he was trying to summon both Ma and Pa toad and that was after already summoning a giant toad). Pa toad would gather Natural chakra and balance it for Jiraiya (note: Jiraiya was still in SM when he only had Pa toad but went base mode after Pa seperated from him) and summon Ma toad also. Ma and Pa toad can use their tongue to grab samehada and pull it away from Kisame then Jiraiya can summon a toad to eat samehada and disperse back to the toad mountain. Also the justu with the from tongues are strong from the natural chakra they focus in it, it's strong enough to cut thru most enemies. Jiraiya can also use his hair in this fashion. after that Kisame's only powerful justu would be that big shark absorbing one which can be dodged with Jiraiya's improve speed he gains by transforming his hands and legs toad-like, all of Kisame's other jutsus can be dealt with ultra oodama rasengan and oil+fire+wind combo spamming plus frog song (attack with finishing blow before any escape).
Both are stong but we haven't seen either fight more all-out fights (Jiraiya only against Pain and Kisame against Guy and Bee.)
- Status