i agree with all you said and have always thought that all along
yes itachi is a bad match up for minato
even fanboys will agree that this is a good thread.
but lol. im seeing some of minatos fans in the comments saying he can use the kage bunshin no jutsu. a technique which he has never used and probably can't use.
I'm going to go ahead and call a little bit of BS on that one.
He probably can't make a clone? There are tons of people who make clones, Sai, Naruto, kakashi, Gaara, Onoki, Akatsuchi, Yamato, Itachi, Hiruzen, etc.
Now what in the world makes you think that someone who has only ever been hailed as a genius in the manga, cannot make a clone? Is it chakra levels? Because I can tell you right now that Minato has more chakra than kakashi or Itachi, and definitely more than an old Hiruzen who could make clones.
Is it skill level? Are you saying the man who invented almost all of his jutsus, and mastered those he didn't, cannot learn to make a clone?
What is it that makes you think Minato can't make a shadow clone?
I think Itachi would win but don't say ridiculous stuff like that, don't underrate Minato just because it makes it easier.
No character possesses the speed feats to touch healthy Itachi one on one - even on even ground - given that current Naruto and Bee were unable to. FTG is, of course, an exception, but given that Bee countered it to an extent - Itachi likely can as well.
WTF is this fanboy talking about? **** that health, kishi made him that way because that is his character's limitation...review the manga and anime and you'll see jounin level characters touching him and countering his jutsus...
OK well let me start off by saying that these are my two favorite characters in the manga, (which usually gets me alot of grief from all sides because there are so many haters of both).
Ok Blaze Release, your scenario 1 is the most likely to happen. Genjutsu is what makes Itachi such a force to be reckoned with, (that and his MS abilities). I think Itachi would win but I honestly think that his victory would only come from a genjutsu.
You kind of ignored some of Minato's positive attributes.
You didn't once mention Minato's summons. If Minato wasn't caught right off the bat in a genjutsu then his summons would likely play a big part in this battle as he can use long range attacks with them.
So there is that, and you didn't mention his ST barriers. You admitted that Minato was faster, so if he were to get out of a regular genjutsu in time, he could make a ST barrier to deflect any incoming attacks. However that relies on him getting out of the genjutsu in time.
Another area where you are wrong is him running out of FTG tags. He can tag anything he puts his hand on. He can tag a person, a rock, a tree, anything. Not only that but he can use multishadow clone on his kunai, like Hiruzen did with his shuriken.
So do I think Itachi would win? Yes, because his genjutsu is too good. There are very few people who can successfully counter genjutsu of Itachi's level.
However in the off chance that Minato does not get caught in a genjutsu I can see him pulling off the win. Minato has too many ways to dodge Itachi's moves.
Oh another thing I almost forgot, when you say counter the FTG kunai, what do you mean? Because if you mean knock them away from Itachi, well than that is not the point of Minato spreading around his FTG kunai. It is to give him a large number of places to teleport in the battlefield to escape/attack from.
So if Itachi "countered" Minato's FTG kunai, then all that would happen is that the kunai would fall in different spots than Minato threw them, which wouldn't hurt his usage of FTG at all. You get my point? FTG is not a direct attack, it is a means of setting up attacks, and either way those kunai will be there for him to teleport to.
Anyway back to my conclusion. I think Itachi would win through the use of a genjutsu followed up with a finishing move. However if Minato is not caught in a genjutsu right off the bat I can't see Itachi hitting him, because Minato is too fast in base speed, and can use FTG to dodge, and most of Itachi's moves are chakra consuming, so Itachi would be forced to use taijutsu which would be foolhardy against Minato.
If Minato gets caught in a genjutsu, Itachi wins.
If not, Minato wins.
As ive said if itachi counters all his kunai's and is out of reach of ftg's tags minato cannot teleport to him because it the tag isnt near itachi he cannot teleport there.
Also summonings are used when the opponent have used one to counter. A summoning is hardly used against a ninja because a ninja can easily evade anything a summoning can do but also deal sereve blows to it.
Personally i dont believe minato would have the chance to summon unless he uses ftg to go to an ideal location and summon.
Even that thats not the best move. Summonings depending on the their size and quantity can easily half the users chakra supply. Not to forget they can be controlled as sasuke has demonstrated with manda, as tobi and madara has shown us with the fox.
Also as we see large targets are easy targets. Amaterasu got the 8 tailed. Amaterasu got nagato's summonings. It will surely get minato's summonings. Similarly the totsuka sword was able to get nagato and oro, ive no doubt that no summoning is fast enough to evade it.
Basically it will half minato's chakra supply
They can be controlled and used against minato
Easy targets for amaterasu
Easy targets for the totsuka sword
What you forget is that genjutsu will always be available for itachi to use because he can use it long range aswell and not just short
Personally i believe itachi has the advantage short, mid and long range
What i will like to say first of all is that im going to explain 3 scenarios.
The first one being genjutsu rendering ftg useless thus minato is vulnerable to real life attacks.
In all these instances, its bloodlust, meaning both characters can use their strongest attacks to finish of the match and from what we have seen from itachi's he isnt afraid to use the ms from the get of
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After all what we have seen from both, they like to end their matches pretty quickly.
Scenario 1, ftg useless under genjutsu;
From what we know both characters a close range fighters as seen in all their fights. They arent long range fighters like gaara, diedora, etc.....
Now in all of itachi's fights he has used genjutsu from the start. He has demonstrated 3 forms of simple genjutsu.
The first one being a paralyses genjutsu he used on oro;
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Oro who has a 5/5 and a genius was caught in a paralyses genjutsu. When he was about to dispell it he got his hand cut. Itachi shouldve amaterasu'ed the bastard or cut of his head instead of his hand. As you can see genjutsu renders the opponent vulnerable to real life attacks.
Madara has demonstrated a similar paraylses genjutsu which again render the opponent vulnerable to real life attacks;
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Kurenai arugable konoha's best genjutsu user, tried a genjutsu on itachi and itachu countered it and put her in a state where she had to play the defensive;
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Even though itachi countered the genjutsu, since kurenai is the one who utilised it she already knew that she was in a genjutsu and dispelled it. Even after she dispelled it in time she was vulnerable to a real life attack;
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In the link above as i said kurenai was vulnerable to real life attack. She did break the genjutsu in time since she created it and she knew she was in one, but the most important this is that she even though she blocked itachi's kick, it showed us that not even her was able to dispel it in time and evade that kick at all. Now if this was bloodlust itachi he couldve amaterasu'd her instead tried to kick her in the face
The next genjutsu itachi has displayed is a genjutsu that is so real that, the user doesnt even know that he is in one as demonstrated with deidora. In the genjutsu everything in the real world was exactly the same, including the setting. This is what fooled deidora.
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Deidora was fooled from the start because the genjutsu was so real. As you also saw he nearly blew himself up in the real world. Again genjutsu renders the opponent vulnerable to real life attacks.
The third genjutsu itachi has shown us is when he can burst into crows at will. He has demonstrated to be able to do this in real life but also in a genjutsu.
Genjutsu crow;
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After their genjutsu duel, the real life battle started and even then itachi could still burst into crows in real life at will;
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As i said both fighters are short range/mid range fighters and ill show you links to demonstrate this. Ive already shown you two links of itachi being a short range fighter and this was him vs oro and him vs deidora. Notice the distance between him and his opponent, then notice the distance between minato and his opponents.
More images of itachi being a short range fighter;
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Now ill show links of minato being a short range fighter. Its actually obvious because in all his fights, either in the war or against A or tobi, he has used ftg to in close in order to use a kunai or ransegan. Either way ill show you links;
Notice the space gap between him and tobi;
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Similarly the space gap between him and A and notice the time he spams ftg kunai's
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From what weve have seen both are short/mid range fighters. In all of itachi's encounters he has used genjutsu from the start. What im trying to say is that, tack tobi/A out of the picture and include itachi instead. The chances are minato would be in a genjutsu from the start even before he can spam ftg kunai.
Once in a genjutsu as i said he is vulnerable to attacks. In order for him to use ftg he has to dispell the genjutsu that same second or else in that second it takes him to try and get out of a paralyses genjutsu or a genjutsu that seems so real that, he doesnt know that he is in one, itachi can use any technique he wants in real life to end the fight.
Ill give you two scenario's of other genjuitsu's itachi has demonstrated that copied the real life so much that it fooled his opponents. They didnt even know that they were in a genjutsu;
Genjustu was so real naruto thought it was real life;
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In the link below itachi saying wont/cannot use the ms on naruto, due to him being a 30% clone or because he obviously doenst want to physical hurt/capture naruto. This link proves that if itachi really wanted to hurt naruto and he wasnt a 30% clone, he couldve easily used the ms on him in real life because he is vulnerable to real life attacks, as ive proved earlier;
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Similar sasuke got caught in a genjutsu that seemed so real that it fooled him;
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In all the links above ive showed yout that both are close range fighters. Also showed you that itachi can make either paralysis his opponents and with this are vulnerable to real life attacks, but also he can make his genjutsu so real that his opponents wouldnt even know that they are in one. Minato would be caught in a genjutsu even before he spams his ftg, whilst in this genjutsu and he doesnt realise, he is vulnerable to real life attacks.
This can be amaterasu, tsukuyomi, cut minato's hand off the same way he did to oro or seal him with the totsuka sword in real life whilst he is still trying to figure out whether he is a genjutsu or not. Or him in the process of trying to dispell the genjutsu.
Talking about the totsuka sword. Poepl underestimate its speed. It caught both oro and nagato in the middle of a speech. Similar in the process of minato trying to dispel the genjutsu, it will also pierce him;
Similarly like oro didnt finish his sentence, minato wouldnt dispell the genjutsu
in tell to avoid to avoid the totsuka sword in real life;
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From the moment ct was destroyed, the sword had already peirced nagato. Similarly even before minato can try to either figure out that he is in a genjutsu or has realised and is trying to dispell it, the sword wouldve pierced him in real life even before he can dispell the genjutsu;
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Now that we know both are short/mid range fighter and we know that itachi uses genjutsu from the start. The question who do you think will be able to make the first move. The person who can catch you in a genjutsu with merely a finger, his body or his eyes or somebody who has to spam ftg tags around the area. Think its fair to say that minato would be in a genjutsu before he can most likely throw the first kunai or in the middle or spamming it.
The next question is once in a genjutsu that seems so real that he doesnt even know he is in one, how long will it take him before he realises and tried to dispel it.
If he is a paralysis genjutsu its even harder to dispel it because it paralysis the opponent. Even before he can dispell itachi couldve attacked and ended this fight, like the way he has done to ninja's above.
Alot of minato fans know this and say minato is either immune to genjutsu, he can fight long range because itachi's genjutsu ios short range. Ill tear that claim in peices, starting with minato is immune to genjutsu.
Alot of people say kage level ninja's are immune to genjutsu. Allow me to destroy not only that myth but the myth about genjutsu immunity totally.
Sarutobi a hokage getting put into genjutsu by the first hokage;
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Clearly he isnt immune to it.
Real life attacks;
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The 2nd mizukage, killed muu the 2nd tsuckage, the 2nd miukage is a genjutsu user and i have no doubt in my mind that this helped him defeat muu, both died though;
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There is also a myth around jinchircki;s being immune to genjutsu. What i will tell you know if you havent realised about naruto is that there is no such thing as invincible, immune, immortal, invisible and although minato isnt a jinchrucki i want to show you that if genjutsu works on a perfect jinchricki, its working on minato.
The 4th mizukage who was also said to be a perfect jinckrucki was controlled in a genjutsu by tobi;
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Bee was caught in a genjutsu by sasuke. It affected him as we see him on the floor but he later broke it and countered sasuke;
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Unlike sasuke, itachi actually successfully caught bee in it again;
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Now elite genjutsu user have been caught in genjutsu (kurenai, sasuke and itachi), kage level ninja's have been caught in genjutsu (oro was a hokage candidate, sarutobi, muu, itachi), geniuses have been caught in genjutsu ( sarutobi, itachi, oro), jinchrucki have been caught in genjutsu (yagura, bee), Sharigan users have been caught in genjutsu (kakashi, itachi sasuke). If in all these scenario's a these people have caught how can you possibly say minato is immune when not even the people ive named above are immune to it.
Read this thread if you want to know how dumb some minato fans are; (
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Another thing minato fans have said is that minato can stay away from itachi around (70 yards) and throw ftg kunai. They say that because they believe this way minato will not be caught in genjutsu because they believe itachi's genjutsu is short range. Not only are they being ignorant because itachi has displayed long range genjutsu but also in the manga AO says that itachi can produce long range genjutsu. Ill show you images of itachi using long range genjutsu, but also the link of Ao claims.
What people fail to realise is that before itachi met with naruto and sasuke during their pursit of him the real itachi was already at the uchiha hideout waiting for sasuke. The itachi that faced naruto and sasuke were kage bunshins, what people fail to realise is that kage bunshins can use the original techniques as naruto;s clones has showed us several times.
The itachi that put naruto in a genjutsu was a kage bunshin;
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Its this same kage bunshin that met put sasuke in a genjutsu then told him to come to the hideout;
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In the link below, sasuke finally reaches the hidout, where the real itachi was there waiting for him;
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Ao and shukaku talking;
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What minato fans either dont get or refuse to believe is that, once in a genjutsu (illusion), minato has to dispel it, before he can actually come back to real life and spam ftg tags.
In the first scenario if comes down to who would make the first move.
Itachi who genjutsu comes to him easy or minato who can spam ftg tags?. Personally i believe itachi.
The second senario would be me assuming minato has full knowledge of itachi's techniques therefore he doesnt look into his eyes when he fights and instead his feet
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Therefore he avoids eye contact, what they fail to get is that itachi doesnt even need eye contact as ive said above and demonstrated this with manga links.
There are many things wrond with this stragety. Firstly itachi doesnt need eye contact but also it leaves the opponent vulnerable to amaterasu as the link below would explain;
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How would minato know that he is about to get amateru'ed, if he cannot see above itachi's chin, as this link proves;
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Now if minato is looking at itachi's eyes he would no doubt be able to evade amaterasu, but if he cannot see it he cannot evade it. You cannot evade something you cannot see.
A was able to see sasuke's eyes and evade it;
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If minato is looking at his feet he cannot evade it as ive said, in order to evade it you have to be able to see it. As ive demonstrated minato either has to face the fact that he has look into itachi's eyes and fight, therefore tsukuyomi is on the card. If he decides to use gai's counter, its useless because itachi can still use genjutsu but also, he would be able to use amaterasu.
So how would minato fight this one.
Now what minato fans forget is that minato doesnt have infinite ftg kunai's he would run out of kunai's to through depending on how many he has. Minato fans say he would stand 70 yards and spam kunai, what they forget is that even if itachi's doenst know of ftg, if somebody throws a kunai at you you would obviously counter it. What i would also say is that if itachi can counter the kunai's even before it gets half way between him and minato, he is out of range of the ftg kunai's.
Do i believe itachi can counter all those kunai's?, off course. He is arguably the best kunai/shuriken thrower in the series.
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Minato fans say he would avoid close range due to genjutsu and spam ftg from long range. Well itachi's genjutsu are long range, but also those ftg kunai's wouldnt reach him because as ive showed you he would counter all of them even before it reaches him.
Now if does try close range, he would be an easier target for genjutsu but again his ftg tags would be countered.
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In long range its a pointless fight for minato, In short range he has a chance but also pointless because, ftg kunai's would be countered but also genjutsu is on the cards.
Whilst itachi is countering minato's kunai's he has shown to be so fast with handseals that he can counter every kunai and create a clone
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If minato was to rasengan itachi its highly possible that he will disperse into a flock of frows and tsukuyomi;
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Scenario 2 summary. In close range itachi has the advantage as ive described in scenario 1. In scenario 2 were minato has knowledge of itachi's techs and avoid close range and chooses long range as minat fans say, he is still as a disadvantage because at long range ftg kunai's would be countered even easier, he can still be put under genjutsu. If he tries gai's counter to the sharigan, he is vulnerable to amaterasu and if he chooses to ignore gai's counter and fight whilst looking at itachi, he can evade amaterasu but all of itachi;s other techniques/genjutsu will affect him regardless.
The final scenario is that both have full knowledge of each others techniques.
How would he fight, becaue in senario 1 its close range he is at a disadvantage as its shwoed you. In long range he is also at a disadvantage as ive showed you even if he has info on itachi.
Now if itachi can counter all of those ftg tags and isnt in range of him, minato doesnt have an ftg tag close to itachi to teleport to him and obviously minato doesnt have an infinite ftg kunai. Meaning once all those kunai's have been countered and itachi is out of range of the ftg seals, does it come down to a true fight, since minato wouldnt be given the time to try and regain his ftg kunai in order to spam it again.
Once he has finished with his kunai's and the tag still isnt in range of itachi, he has to fight using his base speed. To all the minato fans out there he didnt get his nickname, yellow flash due to his base speed but rather ftg
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Now what people seem to forget is that his base speed in high speed movement. Shunshin no jutsu as ive been said several times. Majority of ninja's who have high speed movement use this technique. I'll decode the difference betwee minato base speed, ftg and A's raiton armour.
Now A also uses shunshin (body flciker), but his body flicker isnt as fast as base minato. Its still fast as zetsu said. This is base A vs base minato.
Base A is noted to be very fast as Zetsu said;
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Still not fast enough against minato's base speed even if both use the shunshin no jutsu.
A in v1 raiton is the same speed as base minato, because he combines his shunshin no jutsu with raiton, whilst in minato's case its just shunshin but minato's shunshin as ive said is faster therefore the combination of A is shunsin and raiton v1 makes it on par with it.
As madara said, the lightning release body flicker;
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In v1 A and minato's base speed are the same. In v2 his speed is faster than minato. He has heard of A and has acknwloedged his speed;
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Thats why in the next page he decided to spam ftg, because A went v2 straight away and minato's base speed isnt as on par with v2, whilst ftg is faster than v2.
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Its because of ftg that allowed him to evade it;
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Basically what im trying to say is that;
Minato's shunshin (base speed)> A (base speed)
Minato's base speed = A raiton v1
A raiton v2 > minato's base speed
Ftg > A v2 raiton
Now that we have already established that in the 3 rd senario if itachi counters all the ftg kunai's and obviously minato doesnt have an infinite amount, he would have to fight using his base speed, especially if his ftg kunai's are out of itachi's range. Neither will he have the time to go on his kees and try to recover some of his ftg kunai's to use again. Therefore whilst he can use his base speed for offence, he can use ftg for defence because he can teleport back to where those kunai's are, but then again genjutsu is available to itachi to use if minato's teleports back to where the kunais are. That of course on how which stragety he plans on using against itachi. Looking at his feet and being amaterasu'ed or looking at his eyes and the possibility of tsukuyomi?.
Anyway now that we have seen that minato's base speed = A v1 raiton, although its still fast i can see itachi living with him.
Sasuke was able to keep up with A in v1 raiton, but also wound him.
This shows sasuke's speed (4.5/5) and reflexes ability
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Sasuke's reflexes and speed is great but not compared to itachi's. Although able to evade be's assault, he still got wounded;
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Now there is a reason why itachi has a 5/5 for speed in the data book. His reflexes and speed is greater than sasuke's.
Able to keep up with km naruto;
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Evaded both him and bee's attack;
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Evaded the same attack sasuke did, but in his case he wasnt injured at all;
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Now, im not saying itachi base = minato's base. What im saying is that he himself is no slow turtule. He has demonstrated many speed feats in the manga and deserves kishi rating of a 5/5 for speed. His speed and reflexes are faster than sasuke's.
Now bee was able to counter ftg in time in the sense that he had a knife at minato's belly.
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Now im not saying base itachi speed is ftg speed, but in this image bee wasnt able to counter the same way he did to minato;
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If itachi can get out of reach of those ftg kunai's, afterall if those kunai's do not reach the target minato also doesnt meaning that minato has to use his base speed as his main offence and ftg as his defence because at least he can teleport back to where his ftg markings are, itachi has a great chance to win this, because even if he does teleport back to where the tags are, itachi's genjutsu is long range, he still has ways to attack minato whilst minato doesnt. Not to forget he either has to chose to look at itachi's feet when he fights therefoer amarasu is on the card, If he doesnt and looks in his eyes tsukuyomis is on the card. If itachi can counter all those ftg tags and leave enough space between himself and those tags, im sure he can deal with minato's base speed not to forget he is at the advantage due to minato either not looking into his eyes or looking into his eyes. He still has long and short range attacks. In the form of defence, he can create a clone, that if gets hit he disperse. He still has susano if needed.
Minato fans are clearly biting more than they can chew, calling me out. successfully champion scenario 1. Doubt anybody would get past it LOGICALLY let alone 2 and even 3. You minato fans are clearly biting more than you can chew, running before you can walk.
This isnt a vs thread. Its just for my convenience in future debates.
If you plan on debating feel free but if it isnt worthy of a responce ill ignore it
i AGREE with you it obv they both have their chances
a good draw can be made here.
because we saw the poll going to minato while most comments were on feats of itachi.
As ive said if itachi counters all his kunai's and is out of reach of ftg's tags minato cannot teleport to him because it the tag isnt near itachi he cannot teleport there.
Also summonings are used when the opponent have used one to counter. A summoning is hardly used against a ninja because a ninja can easily evade anything a summoning can do but also deal sereve blows to it.
Personally i dont believe minato would have the chance to summon unless he uses ftg to go to an ideal location and summon.
Even that thats not the best move. Summonings depending on the their size and quantity can easily half the users chakra supply. Not to forget they can be controlled as sasuke has demonstrated with manda, as tobi and madara has shown us with the fox.
Also as we see large targets are easy targets. Amaterasu got the 8 tailed. Amaterasu got nagato's summonings. It will surely get minato's summonings. Similarly the totsuka sword was able to get nagato and oro, ive no doubt that no summoning is fast enough to evade it.
Basically it will half minato's chakra supply
They can be controlled and used against minato
Easy targets for amaterasu
Easy targets for the totsuka sword
What you forget is that genjutsu will always be available for itachi to use because he can use it long range aswell and not just short
Personally i believe itachi has the advantage short, mid and long range
You are missing the point about FTG. It isn't used to go directly to the opponent. If you reread the Minato vs. A and Bee fight you will see that he spreads them out, and that they are nowhere near A and Bee.
The point of FTG is to have many places to move to if you need to dodge and/or set up an attack.
So it doesn't matter if Itachi knocks them two feet from where they were originally going to land because they still have to land somewhere and that allows Minato to be able to move freely about the battlefield.
About the summons. If Itachi tries controlling them then Minato just breaks that control with his sealing jutsu. He did it to Tobi and the 9-tails, so he can do it here, they were both being controlled with genjutsu. So all he has to do is touch Itachi, and as we have seen Itachi only pulls out Susanoo when he is going to seal someone or protect himself from a large attack.
Genjutsu is the only way Itachi wins. That is my point. If for some reason Minato is able to get out of Itachi's genjutsu easily, then Itachi's only chance is random eye contact and Tsukuyomi, because Itachi's attacks are not fast enough to be able to hit Minato.
Would you agree that that is the case? That if Itachi's regular genjutsu were not a factor, then Itachi's best chance is through Tsukuyomi, or Minato would likely win?
Keep in mind that I'm not saying Minato would get past the first genjutsu, just that if he could, then the battle is in Minato's favor.
You are missing the point about FTG. It isn't used to go directly to the opponent. If you reread the Minato vs. A and Bee fight you will see that he spreads them out, and that they are nowhere near A and Bee.
The point of FTG is to have many places to move to if you need to dodge and/or set up an attack.
So it doesn't matter if Itachi knocks them two feet from where they were originally going to land because they still have to land somewhere and that allows Minato to be able to move freely about the battlefield.
About the summons. If Itachi tries controlling them then Minato just breaks that control with his sealing jutsu. He did it to Tobi and the 9-tails, so he can do it here, they were both being controlled with genjutsu. So all he has to do is touch Itachi, and as we have seen Itachi only pulls out Susanoo when he is going to seal someone or protect himself from a large attack.
Genjutsu is the only way Itachi wins. That is my point. If for some reason Minato is able to get out of Itachi's genjutsu easily, then Itachi's only chance is random eye contact and Tsukuyomi, because Itachi's attacks are not fast enough to be able to hit Minato.
Would you agree that that is the case? That if Itachi's regular genjutsu were not a factor, then Itachi's best chance is through Tsukuyomi, or Minato would likely win?
Keep in mind that I'm not saying Minato would get past the first genjutsu, just that if he could, then the battle is in Minato's favor.
Whilst i agree that ftg is to mark the surroundings and he can teleport back to those surroundings. If itachi can get out of range of those surroundings where ftg has been marked then who knows.
And i said bllodlust from the start meaning both can use their strongest attacks, if thats the case those summongings would be sealed, or amaterasu'ed.
I do agree to some extend that genjutsu could be the deciding factor because he can not only use it at ease he can use it both short and long range if thats the case, this imo would be the end for minato.
Also if he does break the genjutsu in time, itachi can catch him in another one. Thats his fighting style. Also as ive explained in scenario 2, even if minato is fast enough to evade amaterasu if he is looking at itachi's feet amaterasu would get him. If he looks in his eyes, tsukuyomi is there as well.
You have to atleast admit that minato is at the disadvantage from almost every angle, but as you agreed the first scenario is what is most likely to happen going by their fighting style
Whilst i agree that ftg is to mark the summonings and he can teleport back to those summondings. If itachi can get out of range of those surroundings where ftg has been marked then who knows.
And i said bllodlust from the start meaning both can use their strongest attacks, if thats the case those summongings would be sealed, or amaterasu'ed.
I do agree to some extend that genjutsu could be the deciding factor because he can not only use it at ease he can use it both short and long range if thats the case, this imo would be the end for minato.
Also if he does break the genjutsu in time, itachi can catch him in another one. Thats his fighting style. Also as ive explained in scenario 2, even if minato is fast enough to evade amaterasu if he is looking at itachi's feet amaterasu would get him. If he looks in his eyes, tsukuyomi is there as well.
You have to atleast admit that minato is at the disadvantage from almost every angle, but as you agreed the first scenario is what is most likely to happen going by their fighting style
Yes the first one is what would likely happen, but I'm just saying that if for some reason Minato had some haxxed jutsu or technique or weapon that helped him with genjutsu, then I can't see Itachi winning.
I know that and have acknowledged it. I'm just saying though that there are certain crazy things that have popped out of nowhere before. Like how Samehada can break you out of a genjutsu. Random stuff like that.
These two are my favorite characters though. And genjutsu is sort of my thing. I think it and sealing jutsu are the most useful things in the Narutoverse (which is part of the reason why these two are my favorite characters)
Yes the first one is what would likely happen, but I'm just saying that if for some reason Minato had some haxxed jutsu or technique or weapon that helped him with genjutsu, then I can't see Itachi winning.
Im sure he has some other techniques but im going by what we have seen.
He can get out of genjutsu in sure of it, but how long will he realise he is in one or how long will it take him to get out of one. Even that how many genjutsu can he break.
Doubt he can have/counter all of itachi's genjutsu like sasuke a genjutsu user and a skilled sharigan user can do. Even that itachi could not only disperse into crows at will, still caught him in tsukuyomi.
Anyway this thread should end future debates and that was the aim U_U
What i will like to say first of all is that im going to explain 3 scenarios.
The first one being genjutsu rendering ftg useless thus minato is vulnerable to real life attacks.
In all these instances, its bloodlust, meaning both characters can use their strongest attacks to finish of the match and from what we have seen from itachi's he isnt afraid to use the ms from the get of
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After all what we have seen from both, they like to end their matches pretty quickly.
Scenario 1, ftg useless under genjutsu;
From what we know both characters a close range fighters as seen in all their fights. They arent long range fighters like gaara, diedora, etc.....
Now in all of itachi's fights he has used genjutsu from the start. He has demonstrated 3 forms of simple genjutsu.
The first one being a paralyses genjutsu he used on oro;
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Oro who has a 5/5 and a genius was caught in a paralyses genjutsu. When he was about to dispell it he got his hand cut. Itachi shouldve amaterasu'ed the bastard or cut of his head instead of his hand. As you can see genjutsu renders the opponent vulnerable to real life attacks.
Madara has demonstrated a similar paraylses genjutsu which again render the opponent vulnerable to real life attacks;
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Kurenai arugable konoha's best genjutsu user, tried a genjutsu on itachi and itachu countered it and put her in a state where she had to play the defensive;
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Even though itachi countered the genjutsu, since kurenai is the one who utilised it she already knew that she was in a genjutsu and dispelled it. Even after she dispelled it in time she was vulnerable to a real life attack;
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In the link above as i said kurenai was vulnerable to real life attack. She did break the genjutsu in time since she created it and she knew she was in one, but the most important this is that she even though she blocked itachi's kick, it showed us that not even her was able to dispel it in time and evade that kick at all. Now if this was bloodlust itachi he couldve amaterasu'd her instead tried to kick her in the face
The next genjutsu itachi has displayed is a genjutsu that is so real that, the user doesnt even know that he is in one as demonstrated with deidora. In the genjutsu everything in the real world was exactly the same, including the setting. This is what fooled deidora.
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Deidora was fooled from the start because the genjutsu was so real. As you also saw he nearly blew himself up in the real world. Again genjutsu renders the opponent vulnerable to real life attacks.
The third genjutsu itachi has shown us is when he can burst into crows at will. He has demonstrated to be able to do this in real life but also in a genjutsu.
Genjutsu crow;
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After their genjutsu duel, the real life battle started and even then itachi could still burst into crows in real life at will;
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As i said both fighters are short range/mid range fighters and ill show you links to demonstrate this. Ive already shown you two links of itachi being a short range fighter and this was him vs oro and him vs deidora. Notice the distance between him and his opponent, then notice the distance between minato and his opponents.
More images of itachi being a short range fighter;
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Now ill show links of minato being a short range fighter. Its actually obvious because in all his fights, either in the war or against A or tobi, he has used ftg to in close in order to use a kunai or ransegan. Either way ill show you links;
Notice the space gap between him and tobi;
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Similarly the space gap between him and A and notice the time he spams ftg kunai's
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From what weve have seen both are short/mid range fighters. In all of itachi's encounters he has used genjutsu from the start. What im trying to say is that, tack tobi/A out of the picture and include itachi instead. The chances are minato would be in a genjutsu from the start even before he can spam ftg kunai.
Once in a genjutsu as i said he is vulnerable to attacks. In order for him to use ftg he has to dispell the genjutsu that same second or else in that second it takes him to try and get out of a paralyses genjutsu or a genjutsu that seems so real that, he doesnt know that he is in one, itachi can use any technique he wants in real life to end the fight.
Ill give you two scenario's of other genjuitsu's itachi has demonstrated that copied the real life so much that it fooled his opponents. They didnt even know that they were in a genjutsu;
Genjustu was so real naruto thought it was real life;
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In the link below itachi saying wont/cannot use the ms on naruto, due to him being a 30% clone or because he obviously doenst want to physical hurt/capture naruto. This link proves that if itachi really wanted to hurt naruto and he wasnt a 30% clone, he couldve easily used the ms on him in real life because he is vulnerable to real life attacks, as ive proved earlier;
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Similar sasuke got caught in a genjutsu that seemed so real that it fooled him;
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In all the links above ive showed yout that both are close range fighters. Also showed you that itachi can make either paralysis his opponents and with this are vulnerable to real life attacks, but also he can make his genjutsu so real that his opponents wouldnt even know that they are in one. Minato would be caught in a genjutsu even before he spams his ftg, whilst in this genjutsu and he doesnt realise, he is vulnerable to real life attacks.
This can be amaterasu, tsukuyomi, cut minato's hand off the same way he did to oro or seal him with the totsuka sword in real life whilst he is still trying to figure out whether he is a genjutsu or not. Or him in the process of trying to dispell the genjutsu.
Talking about the totsuka sword. Poepl underestimate its speed. It caught both oro and nagato in the middle of a speech. Similar in the process of minato trying to dispel the genjutsu, it will also pierce him;
Similarly like oro didnt finish his sentence, minato wouldnt dispell the genjutsu
in tell to avoid to avoid the totsuka sword in real life;
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From the moment ct was destroyed, the sword had already peirced nagato. Similarly even before minato can try to either figure out that he is in a genjutsu or has realised and is trying to dispell it, the sword wouldve pierced him in real life even before he can dispell the genjutsu;
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Now that we know both are short/mid range fighter and we know that itachi uses genjutsu from the start. The question who do you think will be able to make the first move. The person who can catch you in a genjutsu with merely a finger, his body or his eyes or somebody who has to spam ftg tags around the area. Think its fair to say that minato would be in a genjutsu before he can most likely throw the first kunai or in the middle or spamming it.
The next question is once in a genjutsu that seems so real that he doesnt even know he is in one, how long will it take him before he realises and tried to dispel it.
If he is a paralysis genjutsu its even harder to dispel it because it paralysis the opponent. Even before he can dispell itachi couldve attacked and ended this fight, like the way he has done to ninja's above.
Alot of minato fans know this and say minato is either immune to genjutsu, he can fight long range because itachi's genjutsu ios short range. Ill tear that claim in peices, starting with minato is immune to genjutsu.
Alot of people say kage level ninja's are immune to genjutsu. Allow me to destroy not only that myth but the myth about genjutsu immunity totally.
Sarutobi a hokage getting put into genjutsu by the first hokage;
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Clearly he isnt immune to it.
Real life attacks;
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The 2nd mizukage, killed muu the 2nd tsuckage, the 2nd miukage is a genjutsu user and i have no doubt in my mind that this helped him defeat muu, both died though;
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There is also a myth around jinchircki;s being immune to genjutsu. What i will tell you know if you havent realised about naruto is that there is no such thing as invincible, immune, immortal, invisible and although minato isnt a jinchrucki i want to show you that if genjutsu works on a perfect jinchricki, its working on minato.
The 4th mizukage who was also said to be a perfect jinckrucki was controlled in a genjutsu by tobi;
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Bee was caught in a genjutsu by sasuke. It affected him as we see him on the floor but he later broke it and countered sasuke;
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Unlike sasuke, itachi actually successfully caught bee in it again;
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Now elite genjutsu user have been caught in genjutsu (kurenai, sasuke and itachi), kage level ninja's have been caught in genjutsu (oro was a hokage candidate, sarutobi, muu, itachi), geniuses have been caught in genjutsu ( sarutobi, itachi, oro), jinchrucki have been caught in genjutsu (yagura, bee), Sharigan users have been caught in genjutsu (kakashi, itachi sasuke). If in all these scenario's a these people have caught how can you possibly say minato is immune when not even the people ive named above are immune to it.
Read this thread if you want to know how dumb some minato fans are; (
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Another thing minato fans have said is that minato can stay away from itachi around (70 yards) and throw ftg kunai. They say that because they believe this way minato will not be caught in genjutsu because they believe itachi's genjutsu is short range. Not only are they being ignorant because itachi has displayed long range genjutsu but also in the manga AO says that itachi can produce long range genjutsu. Ill show you images of itachi using long range genjutsu, but also the link of Ao claims.
What people fail to realise is that before itachi met with naruto and sasuke during their pursit of him the real itachi was already at the uchiha hideout waiting for sasuke. The itachi that faced naruto and sasuke were kage bunshins, what people fail to realise is that kage bunshins can use the original techniques as naruto;s clones has showed us several times.
The itachi that put naruto in a genjutsu was a kage bunshin;
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Its this same kage bunshin that met put sasuke in a genjutsu then told him to come to the hideout;
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In the link below, sasuke finally reaches the hidout, where the real itachi was there waiting for him;
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Ao and shukaku talking;
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What minato fans either dont get or refuse to believe is that, once in a genjutsu (illusion), minato has to dispel it, before he can actually come back to real life and spam ftg tags.
In the first scenario if comes down to who would make the first move.
Itachi who genjutsu comes to him easy or minato who can spam ftg tags?. Personally i believe itachi.
The second senario would be me assuming minato has full knowledge of itachi's techniques therefore he doesnt look into his eyes when he fights and instead his feet
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Therefore he avoids eye contact, what they fail to get is that itachi doesnt even need eye contact as ive said above and demonstrated this with manga links.
There are many things wrond with this stragety. Firstly itachi doesnt need eye contact but also it leaves the opponent vulnerable to amaterasu as the link below would explain;
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How would minato know that he is about to get amateru'ed, if he cannot see above itachi's chin, as this link proves;
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Now if minato is looking at itachi's eyes he would no doubt be able to evade amaterasu, but if he cannot see it he cannot evade it. You cannot evade something you cannot see.
A was able to see sasuke's eyes and evade it;
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If minato is looking at his feet he cannot evade it as ive said, in order to evade it you have to be able to see it. As ive demonstrated minato either has to face the fact that he has look into itachi's eyes and fight, therefore tsukuyomi is on the card. If he decides to use gai's counter, its useless because itachi can still use genjutsu but also, he would be able to use amaterasu.
So how would minato fight this one.
Now what minato fans forget is that minato doesnt have infinite ftg kunai's he would run out of kunai's to through depending on how many he has. Minato fans say he would stand 70 yards and spam kunai, what they forget is that even if itachi's doenst know of ftg, if somebody throws a kunai at you you would obviously counter it. What i would also say is that if itachi can counter the kunai's even before it gets half way between him and minato, he is out of range of the ftg kunai's.
Do i believe itachi can counter all those kunai's?, off course. He is arguably the best kunai/shuriken thrower in the series.
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Minato fans say he would avoid close range due to genjutsu and spam ftg from long range. Well itachi's genjutsu are long range, but also those ftg kunai's wouldnt reach him because as ive showed you he would counter all of them even before it reaches him.
Now if does try close range, he would be an easier target for genjutsu but again his ftg tags would be countered.
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In long range its a pointless fight for minato, In short range he has a chance but also pointless because, ftg kunai's would be countered but also genjutsu is on the cards.
Whilst itachi is countering minato's kunai's he has shown to be so fast with handseals that he can counter every kunai and create a clone
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If minato was to rasengan itachi its highly possible that he will disperse into a flock of frows and tsukuyomi;
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Scenario 2 summary. In close range itachi has the advantage as ive described in scenario 1. In scenario 2 were minato has knowledge of itachi's techs and avoid close range and chooses long range as minat fans say, he is still as a disadvantage because at long range ftg kunai's would be countered even easier, he can still be put under genjutsu. If he tries gai's counter to the sharigan, he is vulnerable to amaterasu and if he chooses to ignore gai's counter and fight whilst looking at itachi, he can evade amaterasu but all of itachi;s other techniques/genjutsu will affect him regardless.
The final scenario is that both have full knowledge of each others techniques.
How would he fight, becaue in senario 1 its close range he is at a disadvantage as its shwoed you. In long range he is also at a disadvantage as ive showed you even if he has info on itachi.
Now if itachi can counter all of those ftg tags and isnt in range of him, minato doesnt have an ftg tag close to itachi to teleport to him and obviously minato doesnt have an infinite ftg kunai. Meaning once all those kunai's have been countered and itachi is out of range of the ftg seals, does it come down to a true fight, since minato wouldnt be given the time to try and regain his ftg kunai in order to spam it again.
Once he has finished with his kunai's and the tag still isnt in range of itachi, he has to fight using his base speed. To all the minato fans out there he didnt get his nickname, yellow flash due to his base speed but rather ftg
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Now what people seem to forget is that his base speed in high speed movement. Shunshin no jutsu as ive been said several times. Majority of ninja's who have high speed movement use this technique. I'll decode the difference betwee minato base speed, ftg and A's raiton armour.
Now A also uses shunshin (body flciker), but his body flicker isnt as fast as base minato. Its still fast as zetsu said. This is base A vs base minato.
Base A is noted to be very fast as Zetsu said;
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Still not fast enough against minato's base speed even if both use the shunshin no jutsu.
A in v1 raiton is the same speed as base minato, because he combines his shunshin no jutsu with raiton, whilst in minato's case its just shunshin but minato's shunshin as ive said is faster therefore the combination of A is shunsin and raiton v1 makes it on par with it.
As madara said, the lightning release body flicker;
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In v1 A and minato's base speed are the same. In v2 his speed is faster than minato. He has heard of A and has acknwloedged his speed;
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Thats why in the next page he decided to spam ftg, because A went v2 straight away and minato's base speed isnt as on par with v2, whilst ftg is faster than v2.
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Its because of ftg that allowed him to evade it;
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Basically what im trying to say is that;
Minato's shunshin (base speed)> A (base speed)
Minato's base speed = A raiton v1
A raiton v2 > minato's base speed
Ftg > A v2 raiton
Now that we have already established that in the 3 rd senario if itachi counters all the ftg kunai's and obviously minato doesnt have an infinite amount, he would have to fight using his base speed, especially if his ftg kunai's are out of itachi's range. Neither will he have the time to go on his kees and try to recover some of his ftg kunai's to use again. Therefore whilst he can use his base speed for offence, he can use ftg for defence because he can teleport back to where those kunai's are, but then again genjutsu is available to itachi to use if minato's teleports back to where the kunais are. That of course on how which stragety he plans on using against itachi. Looking at his feet and being amaterasu'ed or looking at his eyes and the possibility of tsukuyomi?.
Anyway now that we have seen that minato's base speed = A v1 raiton, although its still fast i can see itachi living with him.
Sasuke was able to keep up with A in v1 raiton, but also wound him.
This shows sasuke's speed (4.5/5) and reflexes ability
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Sasuke's reflexes and speed is great but not compared to itachi's. Although able to evade be's assault, he still got wounded;
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Now there is a reason why itachi has a 5/5 for speed in the data book. His reflexes and speed is greater than sasuke's.
Able to keep up with km naruto;
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Evaded both him and bee's attack;
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Evaded the same attack sasuke did, but in his case he wasnt injured at all;
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Now, im not saying itachi base = minato's base. What im saying is that he himself is no slow turtule. He has demonstrated many speed feats in the manga and deserves kishi rating of a 5/5 for speed. His speed and reflexes are faster than sasuke's.
Now bee was able to counter ftg in time in the sense that he had a knife at minato's belly.
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Now im not saying base itachi speed is ftg speed, but in this image bee wasnt able to counter the same way he did to minato;
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If itachi can get out of reach of those ftg kunai's, afterall if those kunai's do not reach the target minato also doesnt meaning that minato has to use his base speed as his main offence and ftg as his defence because at least he can teleport back to where his ftg markings are, itachi has a great chance to win this, because even if he does teleport back to where the tags are, itachi's genjutsu is long range, he still has ways to attack minato whilst minato doesnt. Not to forget he either has to chose to look at itachi's feet when he fights therefoer amarasu is on the card, If he doesnt and looks in his eyes tsukuyomis is on the card. If itachi can counter all those ftg tags and leave enough space between himself and those tags, im sure he can deal with minato's base speed not to forget he is at the advantage due to minato either not looking into his eyes or looking into his eyes. He still has long and short range attacks. In the form of defence, he can create a clone, that if gets hit he disperse. He still has susano if needed.
Minato fans are clearly biting more than they can chew, calling me out. successfully champion scenario 1. Doubt anybody would get past it LOGICALLY let alone 2 and even 3. You minato fans are clearly biting more than you can chew, running before you can walk.
This isnt a vs thread. Its just for my convenience in future debates.
If you plan on debating feel free but if it isnt worthy of a responce ill ignore it[/QUOTE
Good thread! Well explained and researched. Must have taken you a lot of time and effort.
Although I think it might also be possible that both are dying(draw), itachi will most likely win. Especially if Minato get's caught in genjutsu.
But I think your giving Itachi too much credit about his speed and underrate minatos speed. Even if Itachi is fast, I'm sure his base speed is far inferior to Minato's.
I still don't get why people are saying that the title "Yellow Flash of Konoha" comes from the FTG. That's just wrong. He got the title from his (own) speed! It's because of his yellow hair, better said the yellow trail he leaves when he's moving! FTG is teleportation, that means instant movement -> there is no trail! He has shwon how fast he is when he saved young kakashi and at the same time marked the enemy or when he saved baby naruto. Tobi even says there: "You live up to the yellow flash moniker" It couldn't be stated more obvious!!
Also the fight between KM Naruto and Itachi
You say that Itachi was able to keep up with KM Naruto. Do you really think Naruto was going all out there? No way. Some chapters before he dodged a full powered up Raikage. See the difference? Itachi is fast but if km naruto would have used full speed there is no way Itachi could keep up.
Good thread! Well explained and researched. Must have taken you a lot of time and effort.
Although I think it might also be possible that both are dying(draw), itachi will most likely win. Especially if Minato get's caught in genjutsu.
But I think your giving Itachi too much credit about his speed and underrate minatos speed. Even if Itachi is fast, I'm sure his base speed is far inferior to Minato's.
I still don't get why people are saying that the title "Yellow Flash of Konoha" comes from the FTG. That's just wrong. He got the title from his (own) speed! It's because of his yellow hair, better said the yellow trail he leaves when he's moving! FTG is teleportation, that means instant movement -> there is no trail! He has shwon how fast he is when he saved young kakashi and at the same time marked the enemy or when he saved baby naruto. Tobi even says there: "You live up to the yellow flash moniker" It couldn't be stated more obvious!!
Also the fight between KM Naruto and Itachi
You say that Itachi was able to keep up with KM Naruto. Do you really think Naruto was going all out there? No way. Some chapters before he dodged a full powered up Raikage. See the difference? Itachi is fast but if km naruto would have used full speed there is no way Itachi could keep up.
You do not want me to upload links of itachi's speed feats.
His speed and reaction time is faster than sasuke's. Thats all i need to say and there is a reason for his speed stat of 5/5
You do not want me to upload links of itachi's speed feats. His speed and reaction time is faster than sasuke's. Thats all i need to say and there is a reason for his speed stat of 5/5
Bolded part: So what? Sasuke couldn't keep up with the speed of the raikage. That's why he was hiding in a by amaterasu's flames protected susanno. And naruto and minato are faster than the raikage.
And even if Itachi has a speed stat of 5/5. Do you seriously think Itachi has a greater or equal speed than minato or naruto? I don't think so.
Don't get me wrong, Itachi definately is a genius(especially with the sharingan) and very powerful but speedwise you overrate him by far. Itachi truly is a genjutsu master. But minato's, (km)naruto's and the raikage's speed is on whole other level than itachi's speed.
Bolded part: So what? Sasuke couldn't keep up with the speed of the raikage. That's why he was hiding in a by amaterasu's flames protected susanno. And naruto and minato are faster than the raikage.
And even if Itachi has a speed stat of 5/5. Do you seriously think Itachi has a greater or equal speed than minato or naruto? I don't think so.
Don't get me wrong, Itachi definately is a genius(especially with the sharingan) and very powerful but speedwise you overrate him by far. Itachi truly is a genjutsu master. But minato's, (km)naruto's and the raikage's speed is on whole other level than itachi's speed.
An important part at the beginning of your explanation in scenario three already starts wrong. "Minato got his nickname the yellow flash because of FTG". That's where you are wrong. He got that name becuause of his speed not FTG! When he uses FTG there is NO TRAIL!! Teleportation is instant movement. It's because his yellow hair leaves a trail when he's moving so fast
-> "Konoha's Yellow Flash" "Konoha no Kiiroi Senko"
kiiroi means yellow on japanese. Hence the yellow trail from his hair.
Once again, there is no trail when he uses FTG(teleportation).
In chapter 501 page 4 Tobi clearly says: "You live up to the yellow flash moniker". And what did Minato use there? His speed, not FTG. I don't see why people don't get that.
I like both characters, Minato and Itachi. Both are genius. I just think that you underrate Minato or even hate the guy. And on the other hand you give Itachi so much credit. And please don't say it's because of the fanboys of minato. Disliking a character because of the fanboys is kinda lame. You like a character or you don't. That's it, I said what I wanted to.
