Edo Kimimaro Vs Tsunade

[Gakido]

Alive Kimmimaro is enough to beat Tsunade.

 

[RicardoA]

Small piercing attacks are enough to kill the fodder even if he is hiding inside the Katsuyu clone.

I doubt his long range bullets are enough to pierce through one of the most durable characters in the manga.
A clone the size of a hand palm tanked the pressure of a Chibaku Tensei, imagine how durable are her bigger versions (which she can also use).
Ofc this doesn't matter at all because the op didn't include any fodder, therefore there's no sealing jutsu for anybody.

 

[Curse Mark]

I doubt his long range bullets are enough to pierce through one of the most durable characters in the manga.
A clone the size of a hand palm tanked the pressure of a Chibaku Tensei, imagine how durable are her bigger versions (which she can also use).
Ofc this doesn't matter at all because the op didn't include any fodder, therefore there's no sealing jutsu for anybody.

It can go clean through Gaara's sand but can't penetrate a slug?

 

[RicardoA]

It can go clean through Gaara's sand but can't penetrate a slug?

If it had got clean through Gaara's sand he would've end up with his brain blown...
He slowly

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the bones from the sand. You can see the sand moving in a circular way, similar to a volcano shape.
And i don't think Gaara's perfect defense can tank a CT, making her more durable than his sand (if there's nothing wrong with my logic).

 

[Black Wolf]

The extrusions on Gaara's sand indicate that those finger bullets, while failing to fully penetrate the sand, pushed it very close to its limit.

 

[Bantos]

Of course he would have been stronger.

I'm applying the same logic most people here use when assuming current Tsunade would not get man-handled by Part I Kabuto because she is no longer "rusty." If you are going to afford Tsunade the benefit of the doubt, you'd have to extend Kimimaro the same courtesy, especially given you have much more reason to do so. Being "rusty" doesn't quite measure up to being an intensive care patient hooked up to a life support machine.

That's not the same thing at all. Kimimaro couldn't get fatigued while moving by his willpower. He probably didn't even feel pain at all.

 

[Black Wolf]

Say what? Will power isn't magic. It does not make you immune to ailments you are afflicted with.

When an individual performs their last rep in any given workout, it usually takes a significant amount of willpower because you are exhausted by that point. To perform that last rep, you are pushing your body beyond its prescribed limit, essentially "forcing" yourself through it. That last rep is the most difficult of all, and for most people, its their discipline that sees them through it. They are by no means "immune to pain," as you are saying.

I have no idea how you reached the unsubstantiated conclusion that because he was essentially forcing himself to move that he would be immune to fatigue and other physiological problems.

 

[Bantos]

Say what? Will power isn't magic. It does not make you immune to ailments you are afflicted with.

When an individual performs their last rep in any given workout, it usually takes a significant amount of willpower because you are exhausted by that point. To perform that last rep, you are pushing your body beyond its prescribed limit, essentially "forcing" yourself through it. That last rep is the most difficult of all, and for most people, its their discipline that sees them through it. They are by no means "immune to pain," as you are saying.

I have no idea how you reached the unsubstantiated conclusion that because he was essentially forcing himself to move that he would be immune to fatigue and other physiological problems.

That actually makes a lot of sense. I have never given Kimimaro much thought, I mean as a character, only in versus situations.

It could be that I watched the part wrong six years ago. I was pretty young back then and simply understood wrong I guess.

This still doesn't change anything though. Tsunade takes alive Kimimaro.

 

[Black Wolf]

This still doesn't change anything though. Tsunade takes alive Kimimaro.

To requote myself:

Kimimaro is essentially a better version of Tsunade. From a purely combat perspective, he is superior to her in practically every relevant department. While he lacks her physical power, he can inflict equally lethal damage with his bone weapons, which are sharp enough to resist samurai chakra flow in base (without Cursed Seal enhancements) - the same type of samurai chakra flow that Mifune used to match Sasuke's Chidorigatana.

He is faster, possesses comparable regeneration capabilities, and is far more physically durable than she is - especially with CS2. He is not restricted to close range attacks thanks to bone bullets and bone forest. His Taijutsu style, rather than being linear, is unpredictable. He has better reach in CQC as well thanks to implementing Kenjutsu into his fighting style.

It's a shame people tend to write off Kimimaro because he is a Part I character. His hype, DB stats, and feats all put him comfortably at the Kage level. Unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of this forum falls back on the outstanding logic that because Kimimaro lost to a bunch of "Genin," he too, in turn, must be a sub-par fighter. They of course choose to ignore the fact that while Naruto, Lee, and Gaara were Genin by rank, they were by no means Genin in strength.

Naruto defeated a Chunin back in chapter 1, and that's before he began tapping into the Kyuubi's chakra, learned the Rasengan, and received basic ninja training. An unserious Rock Lee casually defeated two-tomoe Sasuke, who in turn defeated two Chunin prior to the Zabuza arc before even properly awakening the Sharingan. That same Rock Lee, while going all out, was defeated by Gaara, who in turn is inferior to SRA Gaara with a pseudo desert at his disposal, not to mention mineral enhancements.

Kimimaro defeated bloodlusted SRA Naruto (albeit KN0, not KN1). If Naruto was stronger than a Chunin in chapter 1, by the time he was using Kyuubi chakra and had received proper training, he was at the very least low Jonin level. The same goes for Rock Lee - he manhandled a stronger version of an individual who defeated two Chunin simultaneously, thus he would at least be low if not mid Jonin level.

I shouldn't have to elaborate on Gaara - he was killing the Kazekage's hired assassins as a child, cleared the Chunin exam with no scratches, beat a gated Rock Lee . . . the list goes on. Gaara was high Jonin if not low Kage by the Sasuke Retreival Arc, especially with mineral enhanced sand. He was probably made Kazekage shortly after that battle. Given how quickly Konoha rushed to appoint Kakashi / Danzo as Hokages after Tsunade's short-lived coma, it only makes sense that the sand village had similar policies and would find it unacceptable to go on for prolonged periods of time without a Kage.

Sadly enough, the majority will turn a blind eye to the undeniable facts provided above and instead choose to resort to the primitive logic plaguing these forums: "lolKage > Genin."

 

[Curse Mark]

If it had got clean through Gaara's sand he would've end up with his brain blown...
He slowly

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the bones from the sand. You can see the sand moving in a circular way, similar to a volcano shape.
And i don't think Gaara's perfect defense can tank a CT, making her more durable than his sand (if there's nothing wrong with my logic).

Why would Gaara pull them out? That was just the bone forcing its way through the sand.

 

[Bantos]

To requote myself:

Kimimaro is essentially a better version of Tsunade. From a purely combat perspective, he is superior to her in practically every relevant department. While he lacks her physical power, he can inflict equally lethal damage with his bone weapons, which are sharp enough to resist samurai chakra flow in base (without Cursed Seal enhancements) - the same type of samurai chakra flow that Mifune used to match Sasuke's Chidorigatana.

He is faster, possesses comparable regeneration capabilities, and is far more physically durable than she is - especially with CS2. He is not restricted to close range attacks thanks to bone bullets and bone forest. His Taijutsu style, rather than being linear, is unpredictable. He has better reach in CQC as well thanks to implementing Kenjutsu into his fighting style.

It's a shame people tend to write off Kimimaro because he is a Part I character. His hype, DB stats, and feats all put him comfortably at the Kage level. Unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of this forum falls back on the outstanding logic that because Kimimaro lost to a bunch of "Genin," he too, in turn, must be a sub-par fighter. They of course choose to ignore the fact that while Naruto, Lee, and Gaara were Genin by rank, they were by no means Genin in strength.

Naruto defeated a Chunin back in chapter 1, and that's before he began tapping into the Kyuubi's chakra, learned the Rasengan, and received basic ninja training. An unserious Rock Lee casually defeated two-tomoe Sasuke, who in turn defeated two Chunin prior to the Zabuza arc before even properly awakening the Sharingan. That same Rock Lee, while going all out, was defeated by Gaara, who in turn is inferior to SRA Gaara with a pseudo desert at his disposal, not to mention mineral enhancements.

Kimimaro defeated bloodlusted SRA Naruto (albeit KN0, not KN1). If Naruto was stronger than a Chunin in chapter 1, by the time he was using Kyuubi chakra and had received proper training, he was at the very least low Jonin level. The same goes for Rock Lee - he manhandled a stronger version of an individual who defeated two Chunin simultaneously, thus he would at least be low if not mid Jonin level.

I shouldn't have to elaborate on Gaara - he was killing the Kazekage's hired assassins as a child, cleared the Chunin exam with no scratches, beat a gated Rock Lee . . . the list goes on. Gaara was high Jonin if not low Kage by the Sasuke Retreival Arc, especially with mineral enhanced sand. He was probably made Kazekage shortly after that battle. Given how quickly Konoha rushed to appoint Kakashi / Danzo as Hokages after Tsunade's short-lived coma, it only makes sense that the sand village had similar policies and would find it unacceptable to go on for prolonged periods of time without a Kage.

Sadly enough, the majority will turn a blind eye to the undeniable facts provided above and instead choose to resort to the primitive logic plaguing these forums: "lolKage > Genin."

I have never thought that Kimimaro was actually weak, it doesn't matter that he lost to a bunch of genins. Although they were probably in a higher level than genin. And I think you're overrating part one Naruto a bit.

Tsunade's fighting style is also pretty unpredictable. As you could probably see in her fight against Kabuto. She uses her whole body as a weapon, which was already stated earlier. And she has ranshinsho which ultimately will take him down.

I have never stated said that a kage always wins against a kage. I mean Naruto is a genin. And Sasuke, too. AND KABUTO.

Also, Katsuyu is a problem for Kimimaro. That slug will be spitting acid from every direction.

 

[Black Wolf]

Although they were probably in a higher level than genin. And I think you're overrating part one Naruto a bit.

Elaborate as to how I am overrating Naruto.

Is it not a fact that Naruto beat a Chunin in chapter 1 of this manga? Based on that, Naruto, at least strength-wise, was Chunin level with no training whatsoever and only Kage Bunshin usage. If he was already Chunin level, then after he gained Rasengan, learned to manipulate Kyuubi chakra, and ultimately received more ninja training from Kakashi and Jiraiya, he would only get even stronger. Those are all huge powerups, especially Kyuubi chakra, thus it makes sense for him to be at least low Jonin at the end of Part I.

Tsunade's fighting style is also pretty unpredictable. As you could probably see in her fight against Kabuto. She uses her whole body as a weapon, which was already stated earlier.

It sure is unpredictable. That is why a relatively slow and unskilled Taijutsu fighter like Kabuto casually dodged and flanked her, successfully tagging her multiple times on the back and would have killed her if he chose a more lethal attack then movement inhibiting chakra scalpels.

And she has ranshinsho which ultimately will take him down.

Ranshinsho is a laughable alternative when Kimimaro has the capability of casually pulling out his spine, which has tons of nerves attached to it and is an overall crucial component of the central nervous system, with no side effects whatsoever. Scrambling the nerves of a man who can operate without any nerves in the first place is not a feasible proposition.

Also, Katsuyu is a problem for Kimimaro. That slug will be spitting acid from every direction.

Fully within Kimimaro's capability to dodge. The slug is also a huge target for getting skewered by bone forest.

 

[Bantos]

It sure is unpredictable. That is why a relatively slow and unskilled Taijutsu fighter like Kabuto casually dodged and flanked her, successfully tagging her multiple times on the back and would have killed her if he chose a more lethal attack then movement inhibiting chakra scalpels.



Ranshinsho is a laughable alternative when Kimimaro has the capability of casually pulling out his spine, which has tons of nerves attached to it and is an overall crucial component of the central nervous system, with no side effects whatsoever.



Fully within Kimimaro's capability to dodge. The slug is also a huge target for bone forest.

He still has a nervous system because he keeps moving after removing his spine. I believe he grows one the same time he takes the original one out. Ranshinsho will work against him.
Seven hells. At the moment Tsunade tackled Kabuto(and by that attack I meant it's unpredictable) Kabuto couldn't have used lethal attacks. He has just enough time to place his hands on Tsunade's muscles.

How about thousands of slugs? And that Bone forest isn't doing anything to Katsuyu. She can easily take people inside her. Why would the bones hurt her?

 

[Black Wolf]

He still has a nervous system because he keeps moving after removing his spine. I believe he grows one the same time he takes the original one out. Ranshinsho will work against him.

The spine is probably the second most important component in the central nervous system after the brain itself and has a plethora of significant nerves attached to it. Any regular person would be paralyzed when sustaining spine damage. Kimimaro does not need a spine to operate at all, thus I have no idea how you can suggest that nerve scrambling will work against him, because given the evidence given to us, it is completely unsubstantiated.

It's really odd that people continue to pretend that Kimimaro has a normal biological structure to everyone else. He clearly does not have a normal anatomy, and to be so adamant as to not even entertain the notion that he is immune to nerve scrambling when he has shown the ability to operate without crucial nerves to begin with is ridiculous.

Seven hells. At the moment Tsunade tackled Kabuto(and by that attack I meant it's unpredictable) Kabuto couldn't have used lethal attacks. He has just enough time to place his hands on Tsunade's muscles.

You do realize Kabuto was not trying to kill her at that point? Kabuto is capable of two types of chakra scalpels - the ones that disable muscles, and the ones that essentially

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, carving up the opponent. If he wanted to kill her, he would have hit her with the lethal type of chakra scalpel rather than just disabling her muscles.

How about thousands of slugs? And that Bone forest isn't doing anything to Katsuyu. She can easily take people inside her. Why would the bones hurt her?

Stop pretending that Kimimaro's bones are normal. Mifune countered Chidorigatana with samurai chakra flow. That same samurai chakra flow was

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. If he chooses to enhance it with Cursed Seal level 2, or uses thicker bones, it would be even more powerful. So yes, Katsuyu will get skewered by an attack that sharp.

Swallowing a person is not the same as being gutted by one of the most powerful piercing attacks in the manga.

 

[Bantos]

The spine is probably the second most important component in the central nervous system after the brain itself and has a plethora of significant nerves attached to it. Any regular person would be paralyzed when sustaining spine damage. Kimimaro does not need a spine to operate at all, thus I have no idea how you can suggest that nerve scrambling will work against him, because given the evidence given to us, it is completely unsubstantiated.

It's really odd that people continue to pretend that Kimimaro has a normal biological structure to everyone else. He clearly does not have a normal anatomy, and to be so adamant as to not even entertain the notion that he is immune to nerve scrambling when he has shown the ability to operate without crucial nerves to begin with is ridiculous.



You do realize Kabuto was not trying to kill her at that point? Kabuto is capable of two types of chakra scalpels - the ones that disable muscles, and the ones that essentially

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, carving up the opponent. If he wanted to kill her, he would have hit her with the lethal type of chakra scalpel rather than just disabling her muscles.



Stop pretending that Kimimaro's bones are normal. Mifune countered Chidorigatana with samurai chakra flow. That same samurai chakra flow was

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. If he chooses to enhance it with Cursed Seal level 2, or uses thicker bones, it would be even more powerful. So yes, Katsuyu will get skewered by an attack that sharp.

Swallowing a person is not the same as being gutted by one of the most powerful piercing attacks in the manga.

Kimimaro does need his nerves to do anything. Ranshinsho will work, even if his biological structure is different from a normal person.

It doesn't matter if the attack is piercing. Katsuyu can let people go trough her. As she did when she flew at Ino in pain arc.
We obviously can't change each others opinion on this so I don't see a point in continuing.

 

[Black Wolf]

Kimimaro does need his nerves to do anything. Ranshinsho will work, even if his biological structure is different from a normal person.

Please provide sufficient evidence that Kimimaro needs nerves to operate rather than making completely unsubstantiated statements like this one. I'm not sure what part of "the spine has nerve bundles attached to it, and Kimimaro has shown zero side affects from removing it" you don't understand.

It doesn't matter if the attack is piercing. Katsuyu can let people go trough her. As she did when she flew at Ino in pain arc.

Please provide evidence before making a ridiculous proposal, such as the one you are making right now. How exactly does swallowing a person indicate that Katsuyu can survive one of the strongest piercing attacks in the manga?

We obviously can't change each others opinion on this so I don't see a point in continuing.

I have presented nothing but facts to support my argument. You have presented zero evidence and logic, thus I find your stubbornness on the matter to be quite odd. You're obviously allowed to have your own opinion, but it holds very little weight if, time and time again, you fail to support it with any tangible evidence.

 

[Bantos]

Please provide sufficient evidence that Kimimaro needs nerves to operate rather than making completely unsubstantiated statements. I'm not sure what part of "the spine has nerve bundles attached to it, and Kimimaro has shown zero side affects from removing it" you don't understand.

As I said earlier, I believe he grows a new spine the same time he removes the first one. Gee.



Please provide evidence before making a ridiculous proposal, such as the one you are making now. How exactly does swallowing a person indicate that Katsuyu can survive one of the strongest piercing attacks in the manga?

Ugh. Do I really have to find a scan for you about how it Ino just went trough it? She didn't swallow Ino at all.
And I actually found it. And it was Shizune actually. Look how she gets out from that Katsuyu, not from her mouth but just her side. Katsuyu can absorb physical attacks.

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I have presented nothing but facts. You have presented zero evidence and zero logic, thus I find your stubbornness on the matter to be quite odd.

You do realize that EVERYTHING here is just assumptions?

 

[Black Wolf]

As I said earlier, I believe he grows a new spine the same time he removes the first one. Gee.

Regeneration does not have Hiraishin level speed, as seen when Tsunade recovered from Madara's Magatamas and Kimimaro recovered from the bones puncturing him - it takes a few seconds. Upon pulling out his spine, if what you say is true, he would be disabled until he can fully regenerate it. He was not disabled at all, though.

The only other alternative, if we are to hold true to your hypothesis that Kimimaro regrew his spine, would be the ridiculous suggestion that Kimimaro can regrow a bone as large as his spine, not to mention all the nerves attached to it, in under a split second. If that is the case, then I'm not sure how you can simultaneously believe that Tsunade would stand any chance here whatsoever. Any damage she would potentially inflict on him, assuming she manages to land a hit at all, would be recovered from before she can capitalize on any openings thanks to his Hiraishin augmented regeneration capabilities.

Ugh. Do I really have to find a scan for you about how it Ino just went trough it? She didn't swallow Ino at all.
And I actually found it. And it was Shizune actually. Look how she gets out from that Katsuyu, not from her mouth but just her side. Katsuyu can absorb physical attacks.

You did not at all understand what I said.

Nowhere did I ask you for a scan - I am fully aware that Katsuyu can "swallow" people up with her body. I'm asking how you reached the conclusion that swallowing / absorbing people whole indicates that she can resist an attack with high piercing power, like Kimimaro's bones.

How does Katsuyu swallowing up Ino with her body support your argument that she can resist the sharpness Kimimaro's bones? The two are not comparable in the slightest.

You do realize that EVERYTHING here is just assumptions?

Sure, but there is a difference between a largely unsupported assumption and an assumption that is backed with multitudes of scans, feats, and evidence.

 

[Bantos]

Regeneration does not have Hiraishin level speed, as seen when Tsunade recovered from Madara's Magatamas and Kimimaro recovered from the bones puncturing him - takes a few seconds. Upon pulling out his spine, assuming he has a normal body, he would be disabled until he can regenerate it. He was not disabled at all.

If you're suggesting that Kimimaro can regrow a bone as large as his spine, not to mention all the nerves attached to it, in under a second, then I'm not sure how you can simultaneously believe that Tsunade would stand any chance here whatsoever. Any damage she would potentially inflict on hi, assuming she manages to land a hit, would be recovered from before she can capitalize on any openings.



You did not at all understand what I said.

Nowhere did I ask you for a scan - I am fully aware that Katsuyu can "swallow" people up with her body. I'm asking how you reached the conclusion that swallowing / absorbing people whole indicates that she can resist an attack with high piercing power, like Kimimaro's bones.

How does Katsuyu swallowing up Ino with her body support your argument that she can resist the sharpness Kimimaro's bones?



Sure, but there is a difference between a largely unsupported assumption and an assumption that is backed with multitudes of scans, feats, and evidence.

Because the bones will just casually go trough her. And she is left unharmed. She is like a pudding that can change her body's density... :| She is immune to physical attacks.
It took Kimimaro more than a couple of seconds to take the spine out. It could be that he was growing a new one the same time he was taking the other one out.

 

[Black Wolf]

Because the bones will just casually go trough her. And she is left unharmed.

There are two things wrong with this statement:

(1) Ino's bones are not extruded from her body, thus Katsuyu is not in contact with any potential sharpness of Ino's bones (which would not at all be comparable to Kimimaro's to begin with) but rather the surface of Ino's body, which is smooth. Kimimaro can extrude his bones from his body, ensuring that Katsuyu's innards get skewered.

(2) Even if Ino's bones were to contact Katsuyu's innards, they are not in any way, shape, or form comparable to bones that can cut through a chakra flow enhanced sword.

Thus, swallowing Ino is not a feat you can apply to tanking Kimimaro's bones with no damage.

She is like a pudding that can change her body's density... :| She is immune to physical attacks.

That does not grant her immunity to piercing attacks. The Hachibi tanked his own Bijuudama. capable of nuking an entire valley, yet his tentacles were getting chopped off by mere shuriken. Piercing attacks and physical attacks are in no way comparable.

Katsuyu's resistance to blunt attacks is excellent, given her ability to shield villagers from Shinra Tensei. It does not mean that she is equally capable of being carved up by cutting or piercing attacks, including Susano'o blades, Kimimaro's bones, Chidori, Raikiri, or finger nukite. They are two completely different types of attacks.

It took Kimimaro more than a couple of seconds to take the spine out. It could be that he was growing a new one the same time he was taking the other one out.

He would still be disabled for a noticeable interval. Even minor spine damage can result in paralysis, Kimimaro's body would cease to function during that short interval because it is impossible to move without a spine.

You're clinging on to the notion that Kimimaro will be affected by nerve scrambling despite overwhelming evidence showing otherwise. I'm not just talking about spine removal, either - the man extrudes bones, casually puncturing vitals that most likely include the lungs and heart, without any physical detriments that can be observed. Despite all this, you still think a petty nerve scrambling technique will be effective against him to the same extent it was against Kabuto?

If his spine is healing while he is simultaneously removing it, you are still suggesting that Kimimaro's regeneration has nigh instant speed, which would make it impossible to actually hurt him because he would recover from any damage he sustains before his opponent can actually do anything about it.