Does Kisame Wreck Classic Gokage? (Individually)

[Red Slayer]

. . .

Sorry,but it is stupid to put him alonside Itachi or EMS Sasuke.

 

[Silent Hero]

More Kisame wank?

He defeats Mei.
He has the element advantage over Garra, but even than he could still lose.

Placing a character who realistically is on the same level as the rest of the characters in the thread is wank? Please.

I don't even like Kisame.

He factually shreds Tsunade and Mei though.

 

[Red Slayer]

. . .

Well i also don't have problems, it ia their opinion, but putting Kisame in the same tier as EMS Sasuke is clearly wrong....

 

[ToshiZO]

Yes, I agree Kisame cannot beat either. But I've no trouble with people rating him along side them both. Rating him in the same tier doesn't mean he can beat them.

That depends on your definition of tiers. Both those guys low diff him. I know there are actually a couple here that think Kisame beats Itachi, to those people..don't quote me.

 

[Red Slayer]

. . .

Nah, in my opinion the Sasuke who neged Zetsus also negs Kisame.

Maybe he stands more chance to beat MS Sasuke,but still doubte it....

 

[Silent Hero]

Kisame being around the same level as Sick Itachi is not too far fetched.

 

[Red Slayer]

. . .

I am not really gng to start debate sorry, yes it is balanced match more or less,but i'm still leaning towards Sasuke 60%-40%. Ofc i respect ur opinion too.

 

[Haizaki]

. . .

- I'll like you to give me a reason for Samehada not being able to absorb the sand chakra? I'll like a reason for why Kisame too can't absorb the sand chakra

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, Kisame doesn't need to swing to absorb if that's what I believe you're trying to imply.

- Kisame at least for now doesn't need to resort to Voyage yet. Matter of fact Kisame would summon clones and spit a massive amount of water, further turning the field to his advantage. Not just that but Kisame a skilled water element user who can weaken Gaara's sand with his elemental attacks in a similar way in the bottom here

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. Water is a good counter.

- Kisame becomes flexible with the massive amount of water..How does Gaara effectively attack him when he can opt to this as a form of evasion

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If Gaara tries to take away Samaheda, it returns back to Kisame after absborbing the sand chakra. Matter of fact, Samehada can tie itself to the user making it difficult to separate them. There's GSB which Gaara has not intel on here and that as well eats chakra. Gaara would end up tiring out as Kisame gets stronger with more chakra to use while Gaara is left with Kisame continually absorbing his own.

 

[KidGamer65]

Ay can only win if the distance is extremely favorable for him. Gaara probably wins. The rest lose.

 

[Forbidden Technique]

. . .

A completely baseless and outrageous assertion. The Suiton will be directly drawn right into Baku's mouth, exactly how Sasuke's Katon and everything else was. There was never any distortion of anything taking place, nor does it begin to make a shred of sense to even begin with. Baku sucks in whatever is within it's radius, nothing more, nothing less. The Suiton will be working with the suction, not against it. Even then, GSB held it's form and properties despite clashing against Hirudora.

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The notion of Kisame's Suiton being distorted while working with Baku's suction is just outright laughable. Please do better.

Danzo would first have to get directly behind Kisame in order to perform the Futon in conjunction with Baku. In which time, Kisame has already formed his seals and proceeded with whatever jutsu he deems fit. Also, Danzo isn't able to conveniently run along the side of the bridge to get behind Kisame as fast as he did with Sasuke. In this location, he is going to have to traverse widely around Baku's suction range. Then we have the fact that Sasuke was capable of forming his seals, using Katon, and having it reach Baku before Danzou could even get to Sasuke within a very close range despite initiating his movement first [

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]. This is not working the way you'd like it to. Samehada shouldn't have an issue absorbing Danzo's fuuton, which isn't exceptionally fast either.

 

[Private Investigator]

- I'll like you to give me a reason for Samehada not being able to absorb the sand chakra? I'll like a reason for why Kisame too can't absorb the sand chakra

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, Kisame doesn't need to swing to absorb if that's what I believe you're trying to imply.

- Kisame at least for now doesn't need to resort to Voyage yet. Matter of fact Kisame would summon clones and spit a massive amount of water, further turning the field to his advantage. Not just that but Kisame a skilled water element user who can weaken Gaara's sand with his elemental attacks in a similar way in the bottom here

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. Water is a good counter.

- Kisame becomes flexible with the massive amount of water..How does Gaara effectively attack him when he can opt to this as a form of evasion

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If Gaara tries to take away Samaheda, it returns back to Kisame after absborbing the sand chakra. Matter of fact, Samehada can tie itself to the user making it difficult to separate them. There's GSB which Gaara has not intel on here and that as well eats chakra. Gaara would end up tiring out as Kisame gets stronger with more chakra to use while Gaara is left with Kisame continually absorbing his own.

. . .

Let me know if you want me to get serious.

Truly, think about what you're saying for a second. How will Samehada, or Kisame absorb the chakra within the sand? Is Kisame simply going to stick his hand out, and boom the chakra from the sand will surge into him? Or will he simply swing Samehada vigorously hoping that the symbiotic sword eats the minimal amounts of chakra incorporated into each grain of sand.

Literally, the argument for absorbing Gaara's chakra-infused sand is terrible flat.

Terrible counter, on the pretense that now only has Gaara manipulated his Sand with both water, and lightning infused into the initial sand-based assault. That being said, do not bring Gengetsu's unique body composition into it, and play on fallacy that water > sand. That is terrible incorrect.

You also seem to believe that Gaara would simply allow Kisame to do what he likes: "Matter of fact Kisame would summon clones and spit a massive amount of water, further turning the field to his advantage." No. Gaara would already be meters within the air, breaking down the sediments within the ground, readying an ocean of sand to be commanded at the ready.

The amount of sand Gaara can conjure/control > Kisame's limitation of water. Gaara dwarfs Kisame when it comes to their natural affinity usage.

I love debates that use Kisame going in the water, and literally camping there, doing nothing. Literally, that's like a concession to me. People have used that so many times on NF it's funny. Kisame can hide in the water, Gaara can simply netflix, and chill in the air. Pick your poison.

All Gaara needs to do is sand drizzle - sand coffin (on either Kisame's arms/feet) to stop movement, making it easier for Samehada to be removed. Using the sand to fling/carry Samehada miles away from Kisame. GSB isn't touching Gaara get that out of your mind. Gaara will be aerial, GSB is a big ass linear jutsu - Gaara would see it coming miles away, and Gaara's flight speed is the fastest within the manga, he'd be able to dodge an incoming attack like that with ease.

Back to the absorption fallacy. Kisame has to physically interact with the sand to absorb its chakra eg; touch, be penetrated by. Attempting to place his hand on millions of grains of sand is legit the dumbest thing ever, think about it. He attempts to reach out, and absorb the sands chakra. The sand penetrates him, and he's left looking like an asshat because he's just got his neck/face/eyes gouged out attempting to do something foolassery.

 

[Private Investigator]

A completely baseless and outrageous assertion. The Suiton will be directly drawn right into Baku's mouth, exactly how Sasuke's Katon and everything else was. There was never any distortion of anything taking place, nor does it begin to make a shred of sense to even begin with. Baku sucks in whatever is within it's radius, nothing more, nothing less. The Suiton will be working with the suction, not against it. Even then, GSB held it's form and properties despite clashing against Hirudora.

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The notion of Kisame's Suiton being distorted while working with Baku's suction is just outright laughable. Please do better.

Danzo would first have to get directly behind Kisame in order to perform the Futon in conjunction with Baku. In which time, Kisame has already formed his seals and proceeded with whatever jutsu he deems fit. Also, Danzo isn't able to conveniently run along the side of the bridge to get behind Kisame as fast as he did with Sasuke. In this location, he is going to have to traverse widely around Baku's suction range. Then we have the fact that Sasuke was capable of forming his seals, using Katon, and having it reach Baku before Danzou could even get to Sasuke within a very close range despite initiating his movement first [

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]. This is not working the way you'd like it to. Samehada shouldn't have an issue absorbing Danzo's fuuton, which isn't exceptionally fast either.

. . .

First off, fire wouldn't be distorted, because it holds no true form. There was nothing to distort, fire holds little to no density, it holds no true shape, and it holds nothing to deconstruct - Water has every property that can be distorted; a true shape, density to manipulate = properties to deconstruct.

I want to also note, that Baku's suction isn't chakra related, it is merely air pressure manipulation, so GSB would not benefit from it. With that noted, Baku's inhaling would factually distort the water-based techniques Kisame throws at Danzo/it. You're reaching hard as hell if you decline this fact. If deconstructing the shape/jutsu was fallacy than Baku wouldn't have been able to uproot the trees, or the bridges large debris etc.

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If Baku were to use its ability against one of Kisame's many water jutsu like this:

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The shape manipulation would fall apart (the sharks), dismantling the lethality of the jutsu, and simply collapsing turning back into simply a wave of water, rather than continuing to be 1,000 feeding sharks. Think about the logic here: Baku's suction was strong enough to nearly completely inhale Sasuke's complete Susano'o - Complete Susano'o >>> any water-based technique in shape stability; fact.

Believing Baku wouldn't deconstruct Kisame's water techniques is asinine in its own right. Kisame's suiton interacting in any positive way with Baku's suction is false, untrue, and to not be used again, because it's bs.

---

The Hirudora argument is funny in its own right. You can see the insides of GSB being distorted; the bubbles from the impact of Hirudora penetrating the inside of GSB proves that the very impressive water jutsu, can indeed be deconstructed. I also have no idea why you're linking GSB growing stronger based on the opponents ninjutsu strength, when Baku's case is similar to Hirudora in the case of being purely air pressure.

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With that cleared up, Baku while inhaling would funnel in GSB distorting the size, and shape by not only causing its form to disperse into nothing, but a large wave of water, but it'd funnel the water as well into its dimension-sending stomach completely nullifying the technique. Picture a faucet running in reverse. The faucet is Baku, and the water being sucked in is GSB.

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The notion of Kisame's Suiton being distorted while working with Baku's suction is just outright laughable. Please do better.

Kind of hilarious when it just got proven right. That shade is hilarious though.

Onto the rest. The location not being specified has got to be the most annoying thing in this debate to be honest. We'll just imply this is the standard Kimimaro vs Gaara location. You say Danzo will have trouble maneuvering around Baku, but that only brings me to believe you don't know much about Danzo, or Baku for that matter.

Danzo is capable of appearing anywhere upon the battlefield with Izanagi; The fact that you can control your situation, gives an Izanagi user a huge advantage. Izanagi also allows him to show up anywhere on the battlefield which would've caught Sasuke off guard if it weren't for Karin's sensory prowess. But I won't be using that quite yet, because listen:

Danzo still has Sharingan Genjutsu, a plethora of wind-based techniques that not even Samehada can keep up with, Juinjutsu, and wood release. Are you not seeing how Danzo completely outclasses Kisame here?

Let's say Danzo uses Izanagi, and self-inflicts a fatal wound to enable himself to appear several yards away from Kisame. He then uses the same wind technique that was used to strip complete Susano'o, and expose it's ribcage that would be enough to take out Kisame. If Kisame isn't dead by then, he sure as hell is knocked off balance from the sheer brunt of the attack, being sucked into Baku, and dying from OHKO through dimension shift.

Samehada would have trouble absorbing Danzo's wind release because of the very fact that he can release multiple assaults at one time. Multiple assaults >> one chakra absorbing entity like Samehada who must make contact to absorb, unlike Preta Path.

Danzo merely needs to use

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, and

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, Samehada won't be able to absorb them all due to coming from different angles, and Sasuke had a hard time dodging even with Karin warning him thanks to her sensory. So yes, his wind release is fast.

Danzo takes this mid-high (with the exclusion of most of his techniques).

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Still havent seen any decent arguments of Kisame beating Danzo till this day. I have said in the past, once Izanagi activates its game over.

Large scale Suiton hinders Kisame more then Danzo who can Kamikaze out.

Other Suiton jutsu will be copied by Danzo's Sharingan will greatly benefits him via Water Shark or Water Clone, combining it with Danzo's own sealing jutsus tactics.

I just cant see how people actually think Kisame stands a chance for that match up.

 

[super yang]

beats mei, gaara & tsunade

danzo onoki & raikage can deal w/ his AoE

 

[Forbidden Technique]

First off, fire wouldn't be distorted, because it holds no true form. There was nothing to distort, fire holds little to no density, it holds no true shape, and it holds nothing to deconstruct - Water has every property that can be distorted; a true shape, density to manipulate = properties to deconstruct.

I want to also note, that Baku's suction isn't chakra related, it is merely air pressure manipulation, so GSB would not benefit from it. With that noted, Baku's inhaling would factually distort the water-based techniques Kisame throws at Danzo/it. You're reaching hard as hell if you decline this fact. If deconstructing the shape/jutsu was fallacy than Baku wouldn't have been able to uproot the trees, or the bridges large debris etc.

The shape manipulation would fall apart (the sharks), dismantling the lethality of the jutsu, and simply collapsing turning back into simply a wave of water, rather than continuing to be 1,000 feeding sharks. Think about the logic here: Baku's suction was strong enough to nearly completely inhale Sasuke's complete Susano'o - Complete Susano'o >>> any water-based technique in shape stability; fact.

Believing Baku wouldn't deconstruct Kisame's water techniques is asinine in its own right. Kisame's suiton interacting in any positive way with Baku's suction is false, untrue, and to not be used again, because it's bs.

Yeah, well, too bad this is Naruto and the fire is infused with chakra, which does have density.

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Never stated or implied that Baku's suction is chakra related. The suction uprooted the trees and started to dismantle the bridge because its stability wasn't strong enough to resist the suction. That has nothing to do with distorting. After being uprooted and dismantled from it's grounded position, the trees nor debris continued to disfigure (distort) while making its way towards Baku. I can already tell I'm dealing with another one of your alts, Uchicha Nagashi; because there is no mistaken this amount of stupidity. It's suction being almost strong enough to over power Susano'o's stability, once again, has nothing to do with distortion. I'll say it one last time, it didn't distort a single thing. Not Sasuke's Katon (which in fact carries density), not the trees, not the debris. So you can toss this entire argument right in the trash, where it belongs. Suiton is not going to distort and lose it's properties. Sorry, don't feel free to try again, unless you have something that is actually accurate with the manga.

The Hirudora argument is funny in its own right. You can see the insides of GSB being distorted; the bubbles from the impact of Hirudora penetrating the inside of GSB proves that the very impressive water jutsu, can indeed be deconstructed. I also have no idea why you're linking GSB growing stronger based on the opponents ninjutsu strength, when Baku's case is similar to Hirudora in the case of being purely air pressure.

With that cleared up, Baku while inhaling would funnel in GSB distorting the size, and shape by not only causing its form to disperse into nothing, but a large wave of water, but it'd funnel the water as well into its dimension-sending stomach completely nullifying the technique. Picture a faucet running in reverse. The faucet is Baku, and the water being sucked in is GSB.

Oh, so you also lack reading comprehension. GSB clashed against Hirudora, become slightly disfigured, and then regained it's original shape immediately. The jutsu never lost it's properties, dispersed, or cancelled out. Drop the comedy that you're still sadly attempting and failing miserably to prove. The whole point here is, that GSB clashed against Hirudora and was fine. GSB (or whatever Suiton technique) will not be clashing against anything with Baku, rather being enhanced/working with it's suction. Which is very similar to Itachi's statement while facing CT [

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].

Just like it did to Sasuke's Katon, right? Oh, wait... :'(
The pictures and gifs are all nice and dandy, but let me know when you're ready to be concise with the manga for once.

Kind of hilarious when it just got proven right. That shade is hilarious though.

Onto the rest. The location not being specified has got to be the most annoying thing in this debate to be honest. We'll just imply this is the standard Kimimaro vs Gaara location. You say Danzo will have trouble maneuvering around Baku, but that only brings me to believe you don't know much about Danzo, or Baku for that matter.

Danzo is capable of appearing anywhere upon the battlefield with Izanagi; The fact that you can control your situation, gives an Izanagi user a huge advantage. Izanagi also allows him to show up anywhere on the battlefield which would've caught Sasuke off guard if it weren't for Karin's sensory prowess. But I won't be using that quite yet, because listen:

Danzo still has Sharingan Genjutsu, a plethora of wind-based techniques that not even Samehada can keep up with, Juinjutsu, and wood release. Are you not seeing how Danzo completely outclasses Kisame here?

Especially hilarious when your whole argument collapsed from the very jump.

The only good point you've proposed in this entire discussion is that Danzo can take advantage of his Izanagi spawn point by self inflicting damage on himself. I did not think of that, kudos. Too bad the mindset is IC, and that wasn't in character for Danzo to employ. He instead decided to travel alongside the bridge to get behind Sasuke. It wouldn't catch Kisame off guard either, because Samehada is also a sensor, and capable of communicating with Kisame.

The odds of Sharingan genjutsu being successfully employed by a far inferior user then the one that Kisame knows best is not in Danzo's favor. Wind release being too much for Samehada is incorrect. Given the lack of intel - Juinjutsu is the only problem, as I originally mentioned, but was canonically countered by emitting chakra. Danzo's Wood release is nothing notable. So when is Kisame going to be outclassed? I guess I missed that part.

Let's say Danzo uses Izanagi, and self-inflicts a fatal wound to enable himself to appear several yards away from Kisame. He then uses the same wind technique that was used to strip complete Susano'o, and expose it's ribcage that would be enough to take out Kisame. If Kisame isn't dead by then, he sure as hell is knocked off balance from the sheer brunt of the attack, being sucked into Baku, and dying from OHKO through dimension shift.

Samehada would have trouble absorbing Danzo's wind release because of the very fact that he can release multiple assaults at one time. Multiple assaults >> one chakra absorbing entity like Samehada who must make contact to absorb, unlike Preta Path.

Danzo merely needs to use Fūton: Shinkūgyoku, and Fūton: Shinkū Renpa, Samehada won't be able to absorb them all due to coming from different angles, and Sasuke had a hard time dodging even with Karin warning him thanks to her sensory. So yes, his wind release is fast.

Danzo takes this mid-high (with the exclusion of most of his techniques).

Let's not, and actually keep Danzo somewhat in character, like the OP stated. These two would likely engage in CQC before any big jutsu pops off, and Kisame would probably have to come across Danzo's Izanagi spawning. Anyways, Samehada is a sensor, so no unusual surprises will ever happen.

Also, you don't know how Samehada works. It can absorb anything from multiple angles at once, without having to come in direct contact with it, as long as what it's trying to absorb doesn't exceed it's limit (6 Tails of Biju chakra).

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His Fuuton doesn't come close to even touching that amount of chakra, so yes, every jutsu within Samehada's range is absorbed. The very fact that Sasuke could still dodge them, despite being caught off guard from behind with a split second notice is why his Fuuton isn't exceptionally fast. Sasuke was dodging them all day.

Danzo doesn't win, and you've failed to prove this on every aspect you've presented. I've even allowed you to put Kisame in a favorably unlikely position for Danzo, and you've still failed. Can't say I'm really looking forward to a response from you, or continuing this debate though.

 

[NarutoX28]

Danzo would defeat Kisame overall, but Daikodan would literally rupture Baku's internal organs given the Databook's description of the technique:

The shark's roar eats and shredded to pieces the enemy jutsu, while one's own power restores!!

A massive chakra bullet in the shape of a large watershark, the Jutsu bursts towards the target it's aimed at. It has the ability to absorb the enemie's chakra and change that into one's own power. The large shark stores the opponent's chakra in it's belly, it's bottomless appetite is sated by it's fangs shredding the enemy to pieces

The opponent's and this jutsu clash, the chakra is eaten which results in a massive release

 

[TRE MERCER]

Kisame stomps Danzo. Baku ain't gon do shet.

 

[Private Investigator]

-snip-

. . .

You're pretty annoying in the aspect of you acting like your arguments are anywhere near "good". I'll respond in a bit. I don't really care what you're looking forward to, if you spout bullshit, I'll be here to clean it right up.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

People still arguing that Kisame is capable of overpowering curse seal needs to stop bringing that trash argument. It doesn't work as the scenarios arent compatible with Sasuke period.

 

[Haizaki]

. . .

- Kisame can heal heavy damages caused as long as he has Samehada here with him. As long as he can do this, Gaara's attacks are almost useless. Dude withstood and healed his chest being opened by V2 B.

- GSB eats chakra and gets stronger. Gaara would most likely use sand attacks to block Kisame's attacks especially with no intel here. Intel or not, this is another attack that can eat through Gaara's large sand attacks which makes it becomes stronger. Not an issue.

- A thousand sharks is quite large, what would Gaara do to effectively eliminate all the shark at once?

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when Kisame has water clones that replicate attacks he can use. This is a problem for Gaara.

- Let's not forget Kisame's reaction speed. Might Gai who's incredibly fast got reacted to with the Water prison which is difficult to penetrate

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-- another option of defense for Kisame.

- I don't agree with this Mei/Gaara point. Water is naturally weak against lightning and the full effect of water is subdued when lightning is involved. Check the bottom panel here and read the words

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- However, when used as a collaboration, water can work alongside lightning

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and like Mei and Ay showed. Gaara's sand was mixed in the water as a collaboration while it was functioning with Ay's lightning but when Gaara's sand was faced against water, we saw exactly what happened

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and only God knows the explanation one would give when the Jutsu here is explained by Kabuto in the bottom right

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so your "Gengetsu" point is of no use here when it's the hydrification technique from the Hozuki's(Which Kabuto had to alter since it turn into water) he evidently used there, that was undoubtedly what water did. Turning it straight into mud..I really wonder what the explanation here would be.

- Kisame reacted to the likes of V2 B and with him being able to flood the environment. Attacking with sand from underneath won't be happening. Attacking his hands and feet to restrict his feet would be diffculty considering his physical strength. Kimmimaro alone pulled out of sand coffin

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and Kisame physical prowess is immense when you read Yamato's words the bottom right

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and that's ignoring the fact that he was weakened by Gai's Hirudora and was in pain after just biting his own tongue. Let's not ignore the fact that sand binding coffin is a chakra infused sand attack and Samehada absorbs six tails worth of chakra at once

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which further makes it easier for Kisame to break through as the chakra easily makes the sand much stronger but then gets absorbed once it makes contact with Kisame.

- LOL at Gaara already being meters above the air before Kisame create clones out a large body of water or even create a large water dome in 2 panels

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..What even makes this sound funny is the fact that it's manga intel here so just riding upwards with his sand is not a good joke. Meanwhile if Gaara gets caught in the dome it's literally over. Jutsu spitting the water out quickly took B off his feet in that scan. There are also clones here to serve multiple purpose of throwing their own attacks and if you think Gaara is the only one that can go air bound, look at the middle left panel and tell me what's happening from one point to another point across the island?

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..The water prison enabled flight is what I can conclude.

- How about the fact that you need to realize that it Samehada can tie itself to Kisame strengthening the grip if it wishes in a similar manner like in the middle here with B

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and there's the fact that Kisame can just merge making that difficult. End of the day, clones and large techniques that can counter the sand. Water can make it wet like I showed and Kisame can continually absorb his sand chakra, break through if Gaara tries to restrain him and further have his clones counteract forcing Gaara on the defensive since they all can absorb chakra. If the Dome comes out, Gaara loses especially with no intel on this. Random flight isn't happening when he doesn't know what's coming and with multiple distractions, anticipating this is difficult.