Deidara and Onoki vs Sasori and Gaara

[ToshiZO]

Oh damn, is this a good versus thread. Gonna abstain from putting my vote out there. Wanna see some more arguments first.

Gaara vs Crocodile, who wins?

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

Gaara vs Crocodile, who wins?

You must be registered for see images

Dude's a straight Logia. Gaara isn't putting him down. His sand is either assimilated into Croco, or Croco just commands it to move. He gets the moisture sucked out of him in under five minutes.

 

[ToshiZO]

You must be registered for see images

Dude's a straight Logia. Gaara isn't putting him down. His sand is either assimilated into Croco, or Croco just commands it to move. He gets the moisture sucked out of him in under five minutes.

+1 for that gif, fave croc scene.

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

+1 for that gif, fave croc scene.

Dude's straight beast. I fully expect him to come back with a substantial power boost.

 

[ToshiZO]

Dude's straight beast. I fully expect him to come back with a substantial power boost.

His MF portrayal suggests he will. He was getting respect from every top tier he encountered, suggesting that he got rusty in the weak Grand line, but was back to his old form.

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

His MF portrayal suggests he will. He was getting respect from every top tier he encountered, suggesting that he got rusty in the weak Grand line, but was back to his old form.

So true. He literally bumped into everyone, not giving a damn. Mihawk, Dofy, Josue, even Akainu. Hopefully he doesn't get the BB treatment, like the Revolutionary Army. Got a feeling he might be side lined to show off some future antagonist.

 

[ToshiZO]

So true. He literally bumped into everyone, not giving a damn. Mihawk, Dofy, Josue, even Akainu. Hopefully he doesn't get the BB treatment, like the Revolutionary Army. Got a feeling he might be side lined to show off some future antagonist.

I trust Oda will handle him well. I don't see how Croc can provide hype for a top tier or someone at this point. It would feel out of place. Oda said before he hated when fans thought certain villains were weak just because they got beat early, which could be the reason Oda held him in such high regard in MF.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Earth duo shits call me when Sasori gets the mobility to dodge Jinton beam. Deidara spanks Gaara ass again and this time they won't be fighting in a desert where he had a big element advantage.

What are those things best speed feats? Failing against Chiyo and Sakura. Deidara and Oonoki laughs at them.

Lol and i'm still reading "IS speed" when Sakura reacted to it. A lightened Deidara who flies far away is not dodging it? Lmao

I'm gonna need you to read my points carefully. And you need to be careful what you are implying @Bold. Since Sand Drizzle is what I am talking about. IS fastest sand jutsu. Sakura was in no way capable of dodging and Chiyo was only capable of blocking its speed. Which is only impressive for Chiyo, considering she can dodge a KCM FRS lol. Enough with cop out responses

 

[Brother Numpsay]

I trust Oda will handle him well. I don't see how Croc can provide hype for a top tier or someone at this point. It would feel out of place. Oda said before he hated when fans thought certain villains were weak just because they got beat early, which could be the reason Oda held him in such high regard in MF.

Honestly I believe what made Croc beast and worthy to most likely be Shichibukai was the fact that he had his DF at awaking level by that time. At least what I think it was implied. All he needs is haki and he will be back being as strong and dangerous with the rest of the Shichibukai

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

I trust Oda will handle him well. I don't see how Croc can provide hype for a top tier or someone at this point. It would feel out of place. Oda said before he hated when fans thought certain villains were weak just because they got beat early, which could be the reason Oda held him in such high regard in MF.

I hope so. Croco and Enel were my favorite villains, pre time skip, and they both seem like they'll come back. And I get your point I suppose. As long as Croco's not thrown away, I'll be content.

Honestly I believe what made Croc beast and worthy to most likely be Shichibukai was the fact that he had his DF at awaking level by that time. At least what I think it was implied. All he needs is haki and he will be back being as strong and dangerous with the rest of the Shichibukai

Oh, he definitely has awakened his DF at least by the time of MF. I'm not sure if he had it all those years ago, when he joined the Shichibukai though. They let Boa in, and she's not exactly the strongest, either. Probably the weakest member, discounting Buggy and possibly Moriah.

He's going to get Haki armament. He has to, to even compete at this point. He'll definitely be up there with the rest of the Shichibukai, aside from Mihawk and Doflamingo, after that, IMO.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

I hope so. Croco and Enel were my favorite villains, pre time skip, and they both seem like they'll come back. And I get your point I suppose. As long as Croco's not thrown away, I'll be content.


Oh, he definitely has awakened his DF at least by the time of MF. I'm not sure if he had it all those years ago, when he joined the Shichibukai though. They let Boa in, and she's not exactly the strongest, either. Probably the weakest member, discounting Buggy and possibly Moriah.

He's going to get Haki armament. He has to, to even compete at this point. He'll definitely be up there with the rest of the Shichibukai, aside from Mihawk and Doflamingo, after that, IMO.

Well Boa does know how to use Haki though..

 

[Icelerate]

Gaara and Sasori wins.

Deidara nor Onoki has the defense to deal with IS spikes nor its speed(which can also change trajectory). Add Gaara sand pressure and its a definite win.

What speed feats suggest Onoki or Deidara can't evade it when flying? Don't bring up Chiyo when she's not very mobile in comparison to flying Deidara or Onoki. Also the range matters, Sasori used iron sand against mid ranged opponents, not opponents who can fly at long ranges.

 

[makosheva7]

Deidara and Onoki having the ability to fly makes evading anything Gaara and Sasori throw at them much easier.

C4 rips Gaara to shreds (doesn't work on Sasori as he is basically a puppet so not a "lifeform"). If it's intel manga Deidara will know of Sasori's poison and stay in a far and cautious position. C3 would beat Sasori.

Onoki's Earth tech walls and barrages + Jinton would be a constant nuisance for team 2.

Team 1 would win mid-high diff.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

What speed feats suggest Onoki or Deidara can't evade it when flying? Don't bring up Chiyo when she's not very mobile in comparison to flying Deidara or Onoki.

Chiyo not being very mobile compare to flight is irrelevant. It doesnt change the fact that she couldnt avoid the speed of those spike. If you can suggest that Onoki and Deidara can move faster then those pellets or can replicate their flight speed blitzing Chiyo then you will have a point. Till then IS Shard flight speed>Deidara and Onoki. And dont forget my main argument is he can changed its flight while at it. So even if they attempt to dodge something moving faster then them, he easily alters its position.

Also the range matters, Sasori used iron sand against mid ranged opponents, not opponents who can fly at long ranges.

Already address this with Zexion

 

[Icelerate]

Chiyo not being very mobile compare to flight is irrelevant. It doesnt change the fact that she couldnt avoid the speed of those spike. If you can suggest that Onoki and Deidara can move faster then those pellets or can replicate their flight speed blitzing Chiyo then you will have a point. Till then IS Shard flight speed>Deidara and Onoki. And dont forget my main argument is he can changed its flight while at it. So even if they attempt to dodge something moving faster then them, he easily alters its position.

IS being faster than a lightened Deidara bird may or may not be true. But how does it being greater mean it is so much greater than Deidara and Onoki can't react at all. FRS is much faster than Chiyo but she dodged it, correct? If Sasori uses his magnetism to change flight, it won't be as fast if magnetism is focused to propel in one direction. Compare Gaara's Suna shigure to regular wave of sand. Regular wave of sand was easily evaded by Deidara while Suna Shigure is just as fast as laser circus which can't be evaded by Kin/Gin who have better speed feats than Deidara.

Already address this with Zexion

Then I'll let Zexion address this.

Edit: You never countered Zexion's argument.

 

[lelerskates]

"IS speed" lmfao! Someone get this ***** some milk. He took too much molly last night!!! Hhaahaha

 

[Brother Numpsay]

IS being faster than a lightened Deidara bird may or may not be true. But how does it being greater mean it is so much greater than Deidara and Onoki can't react at all. FRS is much faster than Chiyo but she dodged it, correct? If Sasori uses his magnetism to change flight, it won't be as fast if magnetism is focused to propel in one direction. Compare Gaara's Suna shigure to regular wave of sand. Regular wave of sand was easily evaded by Deidara while Suna Shigure is just as fast as laser circus which can't be evaded by Kin/Gin who have better speed feats than Deidara.

If it sounds like I implied @Bold I apologize, it was not my intention. My intention only meant to imply that they wont be able to avoid it properly and lacking a defense makes this a major issue on top of it. The scenario I am addressing is Sasori basically throwing a curse ball. It loses its speed when alter but it will still get the job done, especially when they will have the mindset, thinking they're safe for dodging its linear direction.

Then I'll let Zexion address this

Edit: You never countered Zexion's argument.

Zex said this: "I suppose you're right I just like to take feats more into account than captions written way after. However the fact that he didn't do it in the manga when it would have been beneficial showcases that the control isn't all that good and by the time he turns it around it would be near pointless."

I reply this:

They couldn't dodged the fastest part of IS spikes so I dont know where it would be beneficial in the manga. And 2.) its not like he was fighting in a open field either. So if anything Ill agree that its near pointless base on the range he is firing it between his opponent. But this is definitely a long range battle so its such as hell will be a factor.

 

[ToshiZO]

I hope so. Croco and Enel were my favorite villains, pre time skip, and they both seem like they'll come back. And I get your point I suppose. As long as Croco's not thrown away, I'll be content.


Oh, he definitely has awakened his DF at least by the time of MF. I'm not sure if he had it all those years ago, when he joined the Shichibukai though. They let Boa in, and she's not exactly the strongest, either. Probably the weakest member, discounting Buggy and possibly Moriah.

He's going to get Haki armament. He has to, to even compete at this point. He'll definitely be up there with the rest of the Shichibukai, aside from Mihawk and Doflamingo, after that, IMO.

You're sorta underestimating Hancock. She has all 3 types of Haki which includes conquerors, and she had it at a time when hardly anyone in the manga even showcased haki. She was untouched in the war, and she was one shotting Pacifista's which took the entire strawhat crew combined to take down. Sengoku called her strong. She made one of the marine headquarter Vice Admirals kneel down to her.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Meanwhile Moriah got the teeth knocked out of him in one hit against Jinbei, and the WG wanted to kick him out of the Shichibukai for becoming too weak, with Doflamingo trolling him hard.

There are actually hints and reasons for why some Shichibukai seemed unusually weaker than the rest. Crocodile's excuse was he had let his fangs dull sitting in the beginning of the Grand Line with no threat. Moriah's was actually him getting so used to relying on his zombies from the shock of losing his men to Kaidou, that he let his own strength deteriorate. Notice how the Shichibukai were kicking him out for becoming too weak, which means at one point he was strong enough, there is a certain standard for joining the Shichibukai, Buggy has all the hype (Rogers crewmate, Shanks close friend etc.) and a very strong fleet, Hancock's crew is waste, her second strongest members are nothing to pre timeskip Luffy alone. So her strength alone played a huge role in her recruitment. Crocodile already showed us glimpses at what his true self can do, Moriah is the only one left to display something worthy of the Shichibukai title.

Honestly I believe what made Croc beast and worthy to most likely be Shichibukai was the fact that he had his DF at awaking level by that time. At least what I think it was implied. All he needs is haki and he will be back being as strong and dangerous with the rest of the Shichibukai

Possibly, he is very DF oriented.

 

[Zexion~]

Crocodile was the only good thing to come from OP

 

[Forbidden Technique]

Ok. But Deidara's not going to use C4 against Gaara like he does against Sasuke. It's neither grounded or ground based since Deidara can just make a hollow clay bird or dragon and fill it with C4 bombs. You said Gaara flies upward to avoid it- well, the bird (which is faster than Gaara due to being lightened) will just fly after him so Gaara's going to have to shield himself sooner or later. Even if he did use his giant clay doll, the force from a second explosion would scatter the nano bombs upwards; Onoki can Jinton the area between him and the doll to ensure that any nano bombs headed their way get destroyed.

@Bold Suna Arare takes prep time. Onoki would destroy the cloud of sand with Jinton before he even gets the chance to make it hail, or he blocks with golem.

Point, but Tobi could have genjutsu'd that information out of Deidara. Meh. Don't think they need C4 to take out Gaara anyway.

C4 is not the same as his other techniques.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

Deidara has to eat the clay himself, and then it is regurgitated as a clone of himself. Anything beyond that is baseless speculation. If you're arguing that Deidara takes all these steps, then places the doll inside of another clay creation, and has Onoki lighten it, then fine. However, it would have to be a small C4 doll to fit inside another clay creation; and either way, Gaara (and Sasori) is not going to just sit there and allow all of that to be conveniently executed. In the unlikely scenario that the clay bird/dragon makes it to Gaara, his automatic sand will obviously shield himself with an airtight sphere defense that was shown in their actual fight. I already explained how Gaara disrupts Jinton... Also, an additional explosion may very easily destroy the nano bombs rather then spreading them all over the place.

Prep time? Cloud of sand? Where are you even getting this from? Again, I have countered the usage of Jinton, and Onoki creating a big enough Golem out of his mouth and lightening it doesn't work faster then Suna Arare. The jutsu is utilized extremely fast [

You must be registered for see links

]. Then we have the fact that since these are aerial fighters, and because Gaara canonically likes to use this tactic in tandem with a surprise attack below the feet, he can use an additional Suna Arare coming from below. So Suna Arare is crashing down from above, and coming from below simultaneously as well. These guys do not have a counter to this.

-Onoki attempts Jinton while stationary.
-Accumulated sand disrupts the Jinton prep.
Suna Arare
-Onoki sheds the sand by making it heavy with weighted boulder.
-Onoki learns from his mistake and attempts it again, this time while mobile.

Clay explosions do work to scatter sensor sand as Onoki can just shield against them with a rock golem like he did in the manga. Suna Arare is never ever going to work against Deidara and Onoki so it's not worth mentioning again. They will obviously notice a giant sand cloud being formed above their head and fly out from under it before Gaara makes the chance to make it hail. Or Onoki destroys the cloud with Jinton. Or he blocks the hail with a rock golem.

By the way, I assume you are arguing for a desert location. In the time it takes for Gaara to create a desert then spread his sensor sand around the battlefield Onoki could have already Jinton'd him out of existence.

See the bolded above. Also, being that intel is manga, Gaara knows first hand of how Onoki's weighted manipulation techniques works. What is your reasoning behind Onoki's technique working faster then Gaara's sand coffin, which would be attempted to be used as quickly as possible given the intel. Onoki was clashing with Edo Deidara, and wasn't quick enough with this technique to render Deidara immobile.

There isn't a cloud involved with Suna Arare... Look at

You must be registered for see links

scan carefully. There isn't a sand cloud above their heads, and then notice the 3rd Raikage and Trollkages position as they're dashing. Gaara initiates Suna Arare

You must be registered for see links

and then the

You must be registered for see links

we see the clumps of sand crashing down as Rasa defends. However, the 3rd Raikage and Trollkage advanced by only a few meters, despite dashing before Suna Arare was even initiated. The whole thing takes seconds. Then coming from below, as well as above, guarantees that someone is getting hit.

With his gourd sand alone, Gaara can simulatenously create huge quantities of sand within seconds while also scattering the grains all over the air. You think a Jinton off bat is going to KO Gaara that easily from 40 meters? Doubtful, but then there is no point of this discussion.