Deidara and Onoki vs Sasori and Gaara

[Brother Numpsay]

Lel Sasori will never be as fast as any of the other 3 in flight speed, simply because he has no feats.

Is that sarcasm or are you being serious?

 

[Lord Tywin]

Is that sarcasm or are you being serious?

Why would I not be serious? Can you show any manga evidence that Sasori can ever be as fast as them flying? You can't.

 

[Icelerate]

Lmao its not a simple trick. Not when the attack speed already can't be avoided. Your arguing that Deidara's lighten clay gets a speed boost when IS literally can increase its own speed too. The difference here is that we have feats on how fast the IS can move and you and others are speculating how fast Deidara will be moving in comparison.

Proof that Sasori's attack speed already can't be avoided? IS's max speed was shown

You must be registered for see links

. No reason to think it can go faster. The databook entry you posted that proves IS can be made to go faster is irrelevant because that statement's caption references this panel (

You must be registered for see links

) where it was already made to go faster than previously. You can't use no limit fallacy to claim it can go even faster since there is absolutely no reason to believe Sasori was holding back the speed of iron sand when he was already shown using additional amount of time to charge this particular attack.

Saying lightened Deidara bird>>regular Deidara bird in speed is sound because we've seen how much faster characters get when they are lightened. On the other hand, we've seen the fastest IS attack and there is no reason to believe it can go even faster.

Mentioning this is not relevant since I never denied this.

It is relevant because avoiding an attack at greater range is easier thus whatever feat IS had against Chiyo and Sakura is not going to be as effective at longer range.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Why would I not be serious? Can you show any manga evidence that Sasori can ever be as fast as them flying? You can't.

Ah that right there's no manga evidence that IS can replicate Gaara's abilities.
There's no manga evidence that IS can move faster then Gaara's sand.
Any other Manga support, such as DB, is some how not valid for more back ground manga info.

 

[Lord Tywin]

Ah that right there's no manga evidence that IS can replicate Gaara's abilities.
There's no manga evidence that IS can move faster then Gaara's sand.
Any other Manga support, such as DB, is some how not valid for more back ground manga info.

It was never shown to be as versatile as Gaara's.
There is a limit to what IS can do, as shown in the manga. We need proof more than speculations

 

[Brother Numpsay]

It was never shown to be as versatile as Gaara's. There is a limit to what IS can do, as shown in the manga.

[

You must be registered for see links

]

I have no idea why you make these claim when manga makes these statement false.

The jutsu is literally a copy of the previous Shukaku jinjiruki.
The jutsu was stated to make any shape of for the caster desires.
Rasa, who Gaara gets some influences not just from his his Beast but his Father too,was the one who copied the 3rd Kazekage jutsu[

You must be registered for see links

].

IS is limited? False.
Not shown to be versatile as Gaara? False by feats and manga statement.

 

[Zexion~]

[

You must be registered for see links

]

I have no idea why you make these claim when manga makes these statement false.

The jutsu is literally a copy of the previous Shukaku jinjiruki.
The jutsu was stated to make any shape of for the caster desires.
Rasa, who Gaara gets some influences not just from his his Beast but his Father too,was the one who copied the 3rd Kazekage jutsu[

You must be registered for see links

].

IS is limited? False.
Not shown to be versatile as Gaara? False by feats and manga statement.

Notice how it had to be formed into a weapon for it to be useful though, it moves in such a linear fashin that using it in clumps would be near useless, hence why it has to be transformed into things that deal damage when moved in straight lines.

 

[TRE MERCER]

lol this should be common sense. 1.) Sasori has the same jutsu as Gaara in his possession but with IS. 2) DB states Rasa copied 3rd Kazekage jutsu, which Gaara obviously pick up some from his father. 3.) DB states IS can make any form at any situation. This is indisputable.
Not having the feats is irrelevant when 1) as I mentioned before he has a faster version of Gaara's jutsu. 2.) Gaara = Onoki in flight speed. 3.) IS can increase its speed by pumping more chakra. And I dont know where you get that from, saying Deidara and Onoki can fly faster then Gaara. When manga shows they are neck to nect in that department.

Not really why must you always use these fanfic feats> You can't ever have a debate without you creating some bs fanfic feat for someone but anyways. Not really and i was talking about Sasori speed feats in the air lmao

IS spikes never failed to do anything that refutes my point. Chiyo was forced to block the speed of its attacks, when she was capable of dodging a KCM FRS as an Edo (which only brings out close to your full potential). Team 1 having the entire sky means more room for IS to work, as DB states IS can be manipulated in mid flight.
Unless Team 1 has the feats to dodge something as fast as that then you will have a point.

They failed to get the target that's what they did. The fact that Chiyo even reacted to them should tell you there speed isn't impressive enough to blitz Deidara or Oonoki. Deidara reacted to Sasuke shunshin[

You must be registered for see links

] Sasuke shunshin completely escaped Sakura and Naruto los seeing as they both were still looking up plus Sakura didn't even see him move[

You must be registered for see links

] She was clearly aware of Sasori's attack[

You must be registered for see links

] That was Deidara on foot in the air he'd be much faster plus his bird being lighten up by Oonoki makes him even faster IS isn't blitzing anything. All the pain bodies reacted and successfully dodged FRS[

You must be registered for see links

] One was only caught because they lacked knowlegde on Naruto being able to expand it. So they already replicated a feat Chiyo did. Deidara reaction and speed shits on the Pain bodies since they were easily owned by Naruto clones in cqc. Sasuke base speed>>>Naruto base speed end the IS argument now.

Your premise is to separate team 1 lmao, you separate them then Gaara boxes in Onoki and Sasori gang bangs. Since Clay birds (lighten) wont be effective for Gaara. Then Sasori picks up Deidara. And lmao at Dediara dropping off C3 to an aerial battle like it will be work.

Gaara still never boxes Oonoki in. Oonoki uses Jinton blast the moment he gets airborn. He swings around in a 360 like he did in cannon. Jinton vaporize all his sand before he can even try to trap him him. How come? Klay birds fuse in with Gaara's sand once again and blow his ass up again. What funny about that? Deidara sends a clone on a suicide mission. Once the bird is lighten up Deidara clone flies towards Gaara and then Deidara sets off C3 when it gets in range.

 

[Lord Tywin]

[

You must be registered for see links

]

I have no idea why you make these claim when manga makes these statement false.

The jutsu is literally a copy of the previous Shukaku jinjiruki.
The jutsu was stated to make any shape of for the caster desires.
Rasa, who Gaara gets some influences not just from his his Beast but his Father too,was the one who copied the 3rd Kazekage jutsu[

You must be registered for see links

].

IS is limited? False.
Not shown to be versatile as Gaara? False by feats and manga statement.

Manga literally shits on that statement by having sasori form geometric structures. I'm still waiting to see it being as versatile as Gaara's sand

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Notice how it had to be formed into a weapon for it to be useful though, it moves in such a linear fashin that using it in clumps would be near useless, hence why it has to be transformed into things that deal damage when moved in straight lines.

??? What does forming to weapons, to deal with lethal damage, have any relevance to the caster desire to use it for anything else? Nothing. I have no idea why you mention this.

Not really why must you always use these fanfic feats> You can't ever have a debate without you creating some bs fanfic feat for someone but anyways. Not really and i was talking about Sasori speed feats in the air lmao

Lmao read the manga theres nothing fan fic about IS being used for at any form the casters desires. Please tell me your going to deny a manga fact. Sasori speed feats in the air is not relevant because Im arguing the speed of IS itself.

Can IS replicate Gaara's ussage of sand structure? Yup.
Is Iron Sand capable of increasing the speed of its flight? Yup.
Is Iron Sand superior to Gaara's sand in speed and power? Yup because manga and DB states it can not only increase its speed by pumping more chakra into the sand, but since its orignal material is Iron, its harder and packs more power into to an attack. And the feats show it.

They failed to get the target that's what they did. The fact that Chiyo even reacted to them should tell you there speed isn't impressive enough to blitz Deidara or Oonoki.

I hate the fact I have to show scans as if you never read the manga[

You must be registered for see links

]. Sasori outright stated Chiyo knew well to avoid the attack but fail to so Sakura would be safe.

[

You must be registered for see links

] Then he decide to not only aim for both of them, he increase its speed to where she was force to block the attack again.

And you sitting here telling me it failed when scans clearly shows that they had no hope avoiding the speed of the attack? Lol

Deidara reacted to Sasuke shunshin[

You must be registered for see links

] Sasuke shunshin completely escaped Sakura and Naruto los seeing as they both were still looking up plus Sakura didn't even see him move[

You must be registered for see links

] She was clearly aware of Sasori's attack[

You must be registered for see links

].

@Bold Lmao round 2, sitting here reading manga for you. Ignoring the fact she couldnt avoid the speed of Sand Drizzle to begin with, and somehow being aware of the fact that the speed increased even further is suppose to make your argument stronger? But no, selective reading for you, as you think it will support your point. How about turning to the next page where you see why she was surprised?[

You must be registered for see links

] she was surprise because Chiyo had a back up Shield to protector her again. Cut the crap. Deidara reacting to Sasuke doesnt even come close to mean Deidara can avoid IS spikes. Please dont even start saying bs that Sasauke can move relatively fast as the IS spikes.

That was Deidara on foot in the air he'd be much faster plus his bird being lighten up by Oonoki makes him even faster IS isn't blitzing anything. All the pain bodies reacted and successfully dodged FRS[

You must be registered for see links

] One was only caught because they lacked knowlegde on Naruto being able to expand it. So they already replicated a feat Chiyo did. Deidara reaction and speed shits on the Pain bodies since they were easily owned by Naruto clones in cqc. Sasuke base speed>>>Naruto base speed end the IS argument now.

The fastest thing Deidara maneuver in the air was Gaara's attack. And you think being lighten automatically means it can avoid IS with no back up point whats so ever.

Lol at you bringing up Pain and failing to prove your point as much as Edogawa did. Your gonna sit he and show me a scan where they barley reacted and the reaction was based on the distance they all were inbetween the FRS[

You must be registered for see links

].While Edo Chiyo was way of out KCM FRS range thrown at her lmao. You have no point. Chiyo shits on Pains reaction, not even her best since shes Edo. Argument invalid .

Gaara still never boxes Oonoki in. Oonoki uses Jinton blast the moment he gets airborn. He swings around in a 360 like he did in cannon. Jinton vaporize all his sand before he can even try to trap him him. How come? Klay birds fuse in with Gaara's sand once again and blow his ass up again. What funny about that? Deidara sends a clone on a suicide mission. Once the bird is lighten up Deidara clone flies towards Gaara and then Deidara sets off C3 when it gets in range.

Forbidden Technique already crap on that point of Onoki ever pulling out Jinton successfully so no. Onoki gets boxed in and Sasori chews him up.

Yeah only if Gaara was a dumb character that would work. Gaara is never using his mother sand for Deidara to do the same trick. Not when there will be a wall of sand boxing in Onoki, blocking Deidara out. Gaara's third eye and clone will never make this successful as it would keep Deidara busy then Clone transfer info back to the orignal on Deidara's plan.

Manga literally shits on that statement by having sasori form geometric structures. I'm still waiting to see it being as versatile as Gaara's sand

I literally have no idea what you are talking about. If creating anything the caster desires doesnt share = versatility. What makes Gaara sand more versatile?

 

[Lord Tywin]

??? What does forming to weapons, to deal with lethal damage, have any relevance to the caster desire to use it for anything else? Nothing. I have no idea why you mention this.



Lmao read the manga theres nothing fan fic about IS being used for at any form the casters desires. Please tell me your going to deny a manga fact. Sasori speed feats in the air is not relevant because Im arguing the speed of IS itself.

Can IS replicate Gaara's ussage of sand structure? Yup.
Is Iron Sand capable of increasing the speed of its flight? Yup.
Is Iron Sand superior to Gaara's sand in speed and power? Yup because manga and DB states it can not only increase its speed by pumping more chakra into the sand, but since its orignal material is Iron, its harder and packs more power into to an attack. And the feats show it.




I hate the fact I have to show scans as if you never read the manga[

You must be registered for see links

]. Sasori outright stated Chiyo knew well to avoid the attack but fail to so Sakura would be safe.

[

You must be registered for see links

] Then he decide to not only aim for both of them, he increase its speed to where she was force to block the attack again.

And you sitting here telling me it failed when scans clearly shows that they had no hope avoiding the speed of the attack? Lol



@Bold Lmao round 2, sitting here reading manga for you. Ignoring the fact she couldnt avoid the speed of Sand Drizzle to begin with, and somehow being aware of the fact that the speed increased even further is suppose to make your argument stronger? But no, selective reading for you, as you think it will support your point. How about turning to the next page where you see why she was surprised?[

You must be registered for see links

] she was surprise because Chiyo had a back up Shield to protector her again. Cut the crap. Deidara reacting to Sasuke doesnt even come close to mean Deidara can avoid IS spikes. Please dont even start saying bs that Sasauke can move relatively fast as the IS spikes.



The fastest thing Deidara maneuver in the air was Gaara's attack. And you think being lighten automatically means it can avoid IS with no back up point whats so ever.

Lol at you bringing up Pain and failing to prove your point as much as Edogawa did. Your gonna sit he and show me a scan where they barley reacted and the reaction was based on the distance they all were inbetween the FRS[

You must be registered for see links

].While Edo Chiyo was way of out KCM FRS range thrown at her lmao. You have no point. Chiyo shits on Pains reaction, not even her best since shes Edo. Argument invalid .




Forbidden Technique already crap on that point of Onoki ever pulling out Jinton successfully so no. Onoki gets boxed in and Sasori chews him up.

Yeah only if Gaara was a dumb character that would work. Gaara is never using his mother sand for Deidara to do the same trick. Not when there will be a wall of sand boxing in Onoki, blocking Deidara out. Gaara's third eye and clone will never make this successful as it would keep Deidara busy then Clone transfer info back to the orignal on Deidara's plan.






I literally have no idea what you are talking about. If creating anything the caster desires doesnt share = versatility. What makes Gaara sand more versatile?

Manga feats

 

[Edogawa]

It does when you try to make a point that 1 Path lacking Taijutsu shows dodging doesnt make FRS all that in speed, despite we witness Animal Path on the same exact boat (closer range) failed and relied on other bodies to react for them or giving them a heads up. Despite it was thrown more then once with them still struggling against it.

The distance, being 2-3 meters, isn't going to have an effect Animal Path wasn't good at Taijutsu, either. Even Black Zetsu dodged FRS at point-blank. FRS isn't as fast as you think it is; Chiyo reacting to it, while it speaks good for her reaction, it's not going to mean higher tier can't, Onoki's case.

He failed to react to an ambush, stated in the next page. That does not prove Onoki can blitz Kabuto.

Hence you concede with the bold: Onoki was fast enough for them not to react to the ambush, which they were aware of, which speaks speed prowess, greater than anything Early Shippuden Sakura and Chiyo could do.

Never said Mu wasn't travelling at such speed. I said it doesn't prove they move in comparable speed to IS fastest.

Author wouldn't then have bothered spending hours drawing the motion line and writing ''Kyun''/Woosh comparison between two speed instances, if he didn't want the readers to know both are comparable.

Second paragraph is based on feats. By feats mouth source was never shown to be as big as on the ground feats. If you can back up @Bold then Ill concede this point. Because either way Ill just make another argument countering a justu that can deal with bigger shield anyway lol

I see you're now holding tight on feats, but wouldn't rely on feats for Iron Sand. In any case, the ground argument will only mean the time he needs to form the Golem is lesser than forming it from the mouth. Regardless, Onoki can dodge it since the Golem was an additional backup.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

The distance, being 2-3 meters, isn't going to have an effect Animal Path wasn't good at Taijutsu, either. Even Black Zetsu dodged FRS at point-blank. FRS isn't as fast as you think it is; Chiyo reacting to it, while it speaks good for her reaction, it's not going to mean higher tier can't, Onoki's case.

How are you going to say isnt going to have an effect, then argue why it did have an effect when it came to reaction timing? You are proving my point while being in denial.
Didnt know Black Zetsu dodging FRS was ever in the manga. The only scenario I remembered Black Zetsu encountering FRS is when he took Naruto's footing to stop him for hitting him. And I hope you arent talking about the same scenario.
Stop down playing feats. Just because Onoki is stronger then Chiyo does not make him superior to her in every category. This is the same case as Madara and Tobirama. Madara is clearly superior and higher tier then Tobirama yets admits inferiority when it came to movement speed. Chiyo was trained to be an evasive character, and feats backs it up with it. While you have yet to show me what the fastest attack speed Onoki was capable of avoiding to even argue he could be superior then Chiyo.

Hence you concede with the bold: Onoki was fast enough for them not to react to the ambush, which they were aware of, which speaks speed prowess, greater than anything Early Shippuden Sakura and Chiyo could do.

I'm conceding to a point you dont have? You are assuming that this means Onoki is moving a relative speed then IS fastest. Heck this is even assuming Onoki is moving faster then FRS.

How are people going to argue that Deidara and Onoki flight speed are neck to neck (which manga outright shows) then decide to make an argument that Onoki is capable of blitzing him is beyond me.

Author wouldn't then have bothered spending hours drawing the motion line and writing ''Kyun''/Woosh comparison between two speed instances, if he didn't want the readers to know both are comparable.

So you are saying that the author wanted the readers to make sure that the sound effected of all speed = all speeds in the manga are relatively equal? This is your argument?

I see you're now holding tight on feats, but wouldn't rely on feats for Iron Sand. In any case, the ground argument will only mean the time he needs to form the Golem is lesser than forming it from the mouth. Regardless, Onoki can dodge it since the Golem was an additional backup.

Stop I relied on both feats and evidence provided to support my case. I dont have feats of IS making a platform to fly, but evidence makes this validated that it can. As I can prove that IS can be formed at any shape the caster desires. I can also prove that IS can increase its speed faster then Gaara's sand. Thats the difference between your point and mine.
From 100 meters start up, forming Golem gives Gaara and Sasori more then enough time to box Onoki in via Gaara building up sand around Onoki's area. And once boxed in he gets spiked. And since its further distance, Sasori can changed sand spikes (or disks) direction to bypass Golem from blocking for him. Or obliterate him along the Golem with ISWO.

 

[Edogawa]

This will just go on forever, so I'll end it here. Exaggerating a technique is always one of your negative habits in a debate/discussion.

 

[blazekev90]

Notice how it had to be formed into a weapon for it to be useful though, it moves in such a linear fashin that using it in clumps would be near useless, hence why it has to be transformed into things that deal damage when moved in straight lines.

He was fighting against Sakura...that could've been plot. Otherwise, had Sasori maneuvered IS similar to Garra in that fight it would've been over. You have to consider the context in which a technique was used, and how Plot could've been a major factor.

I don't think it HAS to be formed, let alone formed into such oversized targets. That was for Sakura's sake. We've seen its initial release have no form, so it's possible. Also, it could take the form into several marble balls, Magneto style, becoming a harder to defense and greater offensively.

Overall, everyone seems too focused on the speed feats IS, it doesn't need fast speed feats.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

This will just go on forever, so I'll end it here. Exaggerating a technique is always one of your negative habits in a debate/discussion.

There nothing exaggerated here. I made a point that the speed of the technique was something Chiyo couldn't avoid.
I compared it to another technique she was capable of avoiding, a well known fast jutsu.
You guys attempt to refute that it isnt all that in comparison, which my rebuttal clearly shows that its not true at all.
You guys have YET made a point, to where the team you are defending has properly avoided an attack thats relativity as fast.
Just more downplay with no back up on y'all claims.