I'm gonna need you to read my points carefully. And you need to be careful what you are implying @Bold. Since Sand Drizzle is what I am talking about. IS fastest sand jutsu. Sakura was in no way capable of dodging and Chiyo was only capable of blocking its speed. Which is only impressive for Chiyo, considering she can dodge a KCM FRS lol. Enough with cop out responses
Im saying it's useless against two opponents who can fight from extreme long ranges[
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] If Oonoki and Deidara decides to get this high theres literally nothing Sasori can do here. Oonoki lights up Deidara bird to increase it's speed which means Deidara evades Gaara attacks with even more ease. What also stops him from lighting up all his clay as a whole which would make His offense attacks faster as well.
Oonoki simple blows Sasori away with Jinton at this distance. It's not impossible since Oonoki Jinton beam as alot of range[
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] So Sasori gets erased. Deidara and Oonoki proceed to gang rape Gaara.
Deidara has to eat the clay himself, and then it is regurgitated as a clone of himself. Anything beyond that is baseless speculation. If you're arguing that Deidara takes all these steps, then places the doll inside of another clay creation, and has Onoki lighten it, then fine. However, it would have to be a small C4 doll to fit inside another clay creation; and either way, Gaara (and Sasori) is not going to just sit there and allow all of that to be conveniently executed.
Gotcha. Then all Deidara has to do is simply make the doll and Onoki uses a weighted punch to send it flying towards Gaara. All of Deidara's clay in his pouches is lightened at the beginning of the battle so any creations he makes with it will already be weightless. This is not a lengthy process, it can actually be executed fairly quickly.
In the unlikely scenario that the clay bird/dragon makes it to Gaara, his automatic sand will obviously shield himself with an airtight sphere defense that was shown in their actual fight. I already explained how Gaara disrupts Jinton... Also, an additional explosion may very easily destroy the nano bombs rather then spreading them all over the place.
War Arc Gaara doesn't have automatic sand since he lost Shukaku, and if he does hole up in his sand sphere like you're saying, Deidara will just hammer away at it with C3 missiles until Gaara gets blown to smithereens faster than he can say "this was a bad idea". @Bold- it would destroy the nano bombs in the immediate blast radius but the force from the explosion would scatter the rest of them.
Prep time? Cloud of sand? Where are you even getting this from? Again, I have countered the usage of Jinton, and Onoki creating a big enough Golem out of his mouth and lightening it doesn't work faster then Suna Arare. The jutsu is utilized extremely fast [
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]. Then we have the fact that since these are aerial fighters, and because Gaara canonically likes to use this tactic in tandem with a surprise attack below the feet, he can use an additional Suna Arare coming from below. So Suna Arare is crashing down from above, and coming from below simultaneously as well. These guys do not have a counter to this.
Please stop with the Suna Arare gg nonsense, it's not going to happen. Nothing about the page you linked me indicates that the jutsu is utilized "extremely fast" when
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and Rasa was able to block it. Muu is as fast as Onoki,
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, so the both of them manage to easily avoid it on Deidara's lightened bird.
Using an additional Suna Arare from below does nothing since it won't enable the sand hail to catch them, especially when the one coming from below is going against gravity and therefore slower than the hail coming from above. Using a golem to block the sand rain is also an option since they can be created
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which speaks a lot. Onoki doesn't need to lighten it if Onoki himself is already lightened since it is produced with the chakra within his body, which is already lightened.
See the bolded above. Also, being that intel is manga, Gaara knows first hand of how Onoki's weighted manipulation techniques works. What is your reasoning behind Onoki's technique working faster then Gaara's sand coffin, which would be attempted to be used as quickly as possible given the intel. Onoki was clashing with Edo Deidara, and wasn't quick enough with this technique to render Deidara immobile.
That's right, intel is manga which means Onoki knows that:
-Gaara can spread sensor sand throughout a battlefield.
-Gaara
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.
So why would he stay stationary when charging Jinton knowing what Gaara can do? I'm getting tired of you saying Jinton has been countered. It's not. Nothing is stopping Onoki from charging and firing Jinton from on top of Deidara's mobile bird. Saying "it's out of character" is a weak argument when Onoki, an experienced fighter, knows that maximizing his speed is key to winning this battle.
There isn't a cloud involved with Suna Arare... Look at
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scan carefully. There isn't a sand cloud above their heads, and then notice the 3rd Raikage and Trollkages position as they're dashing. Gaara initiates Suna Arare
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and then the
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we see the clumps of sand crashing down as Rasa defends. However, the 3rd Raikage and Trollkage advanced by only a few meters, despite dashing before Suna Arare was even initiated. The whole thing takes seconds. Then coming from below, as well as above, guarantees that someone is getting hit.
I might be wrong about the sand cloud. I assumed that
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mass of sand is where the sand hail came from, but now I'm thinking the sand hail is likely created via accumulated sensor sand. Doesn't change anything since they can still dodge it or tank it.
With his gourd sand alone, Gaara can simulatenously create huge quantities of sand within seconds while also scattering the grains all over the air. You think a Jinton off bat is going to KO Gaara that easily from 40 meters? Doubtful, but then there is no point of this discussion.
If Gaara is simultaneously creating a desert and spreading out his grains, he's not going to be able to focus on defending himself properly against these two heavy hitters. Not a good thing when you have superfast C3 birds breathing down your neck and a guy who can literally turn you into dust.
Vaporizing Gaara right off the bat to me seems more likely than Gaara soloing both Deidara and Onoki, something which you seem to think possible considering you haven't used Sasori in your arguments. But here I am discussing this with you.
If it sounds like I implied @Bold I apologize, it was not my intention. My intention only meant to imply that they wont be able to avoid it properly and lacking a defense makes this a major issue on top of it. The scenario I am addressing is Sasori basically throwing a curse ball. It loses its speed when alter but it will still get the job done, especially when they will have the mindset, thinking they're safe for dodging its linear direction.
Deidara is Sasori's partner and you think he'll fall for such a simple trick? By the time it misses and Sasori changes its momentum, Deidara's clay bird will be far from the iron sand so it gets evaded again.
Zex said this: "I suppose you're right I just like to take feats more into account than captions written way after. However the fact that he didn't do it in the manga when it would have been beneficial showcases that the control isn't all that good and by the time he turns it around it would be near pointless."
Well your reply is irrelevant as it doesn't counter my argument that hitting a target at long range is harder than hitting a target at a closer range which is simple logic.
Gotcha. Then all Deidara has to do is simply make the doll and Onoki uses a weighted punch to send it flying towards Gaara. All of Deidara's clay in his pouches is lightened at the beginning of the battle so any creations he makes with it will already be weightless. This is not a lengthy process, it can actually be executed fairly quickly.
Doesn't work like that. Try punching or throwing something weightless as hard as you can and tell me how far and fast it goes. Then we have the fact that the exterior of the C4 bomb swallows Sasuke and the clay bird from the outside [
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], so it's highly unlikely to get a solid punch on that thing anyways. It's not exactly a lengthy process, but it still requires for Deidara to swallow a lump of clay, mold it, regurgitate it, and allow it to form into the doll. By this time, Gaara should very easily have his sand grains dispersed all over the battlefield, and a plethora of sand made from the ground.
War Arc Gaara doesn't have automatic sand since he lost Shukaku, and if he does hole up in his sand sphere like you're saying, Deidara will just hammer away at it with C3 missiles until Gaara gets blown to smithereens faster than he can say "this was a bad idea". @Bold- it would destroy the nano bombs in the immediate blast radius but the force from the explosion would scatter the rest of them.
, the automatic defense doesn't come from Shukaku. You understand that Gaara doesn't just sit blindly in the sand sphere, right? He has the third eye, and is still very capable of using his other sand offensively and defensively to counter the opponent. For Deidara to even detonate a C3, he'd have to first successfully drop it on Gaara, and then make sure he is out of it's range. Not happening.
Again, weightless objects don't travel long distances like that. And then there is no way of dictating where all the nano bombs travel. Before detonating, you'd have to bank on Onoki using Jinton to cover an all 360 degree radius without hitting Deidara (according to you); but then why even go through all that trouble if Onoki can just Jinton. He should just Jinton laser the sand sphere. But he can't, because of Gaara's scattered sand grains that'll disrupt it, so Deidara can't detonate an untrackably scattered C4. This is sloppiness. Then we have Gaara's automatic defense, that I completely forgot to consider. It comes to Gaara's defense on it's own dependence, so it's very plausible that it will detect the nano-bombs (A sensory ability, I'm assuming) and automatically shield Gaara from it regardless.
Please stop with the Suna Arare gg nonsense, it's not going to happen. Nothing about the page you linked me indicates that the jutsu is utilized "extremely fast" when
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and Rasa was able to block it. Muu is as fast as Onoki,
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, so the both of them manage to easily avoid it on Deidara's lightened bird.
Using an additional Suna Arare from below does nothing since it won't enable the sand hail to catch them, especially when the one coming from below is going against gravity and therefore slower than the hail coming from above. Using a golem to block the sand rain is also an option since they can be created
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which speaks a lot. Onoki doesn't need to lighten it if Onoki himself is already lightened since it is produced with the chakra within his body, which is already lightened.
Sure, I'll stop once you provide an actual adequate counter for it. Mu never avoided the technique, because it was never targeting Mu. It was literally established right next to Gaara that Mu was Onoki's opponent [
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]. The two of them were shown flying off to the side to engage in their own secluded fight as Suna Arare was initiated. The SA were also charging in at that point as well, so the AoE of Suna Arare couldn't even be that large. Rasa forming a defense out of his gold dust to block it doesn't provide for valid reasoning to support Deidara and Onoki here. His gold dust was shown to be just as fast as Gaara's gourd sand, and the proper way to counter this jutsu is to form a defense against it, not dodge it.
Lol, Gaara effortlessly can suspend an immense amount of sand
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very quickly, so I don't want to hear about working against gravity being even a slight factor here. The absolutely ridiculous amount of AoE that Gaara can cover at his desire is simply not allowing anyone to escape a Suna Arare, especially coming from above and below. Your best argument is utilizing a golem, but even that doesn't form an absolute defense from all angles.
That's right, intel is manga which means Onoki knows that:
-Gaara can spread sensor sand throughout a battlefield.
-Gaara
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.
So why would he stay stationary when charging Jinton knowing what Gaara can do? I'm getting tired of you saying Jinton has been countered. It's not. Nothing is stopping Onoki from charging and firing Jinton from on top of Deidara's mobile bird. Saying "it's out of character" is a weak argument when Onoki, an experienced fighter, knows that maximizing his speed is key to winning this battle.
You didn't answer how Onoki's weighted boulder is faster then Gaara's sand coffin.
How is Onoki going to find the concentration to charge up Jinton while having to hold a steady balance on top of a fast moving object that has to change sudden direction at high speeds to avoid Gaara's sand accumulations. You're not thinking any of your tactics through. If mere movement
I might be wrong about the sand cloud. I assumed that
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mass of sand is where the sand hail came from, but now I'm thinking the sand hail is likely created via accumulated sensor sand. Doesn't change anything since they can still dodge it or tank it.
If Gaara is simultaneously creating a desert and spreading out his grains, he's not going to be able to focus on defending himself properly against these two heavy hitters. Not a good thing when you have superfast C3 birds breathing down your neck and a guy who can literally turn you into dust.
Vaporizing Gaara right off the bat to me seems more likely than Gaara soloing both Deidara and Onoki, something which you seem to think possible considering you haven't used Sasori in your arguments. But here I am discussing this with you.
It doesn't require a whole lot of focus, and Gaara has been shown to multitask with his sand all the time. Both are extremely easily accomplished simultaneously. Some gourd sand is used to create a plethora of sand underneath the surface, while other gourd sand is scattered all over the place into the air.
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Just like C4, C3 animal clay creations don't exist. I literally mentioned in that very post that Sasori, along with Gaara, won't sit idly to allow Deidara and Onoki to execute everything. You have just yet to give me any reason to even begin to utilize Sasori yet. No one is forcing you to discuss anything with me, that is your choice.
Im saying it's useless against two opponents who can fight from extreme long ranges[
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] If Oonoki and Deidara decides to get this high theres literally nothing Sasori can do here. Oonoki lights up Deidara bird to increase it's speed which means Deidara evades Gaara attacks with even more ease. What also stops him from lighting up all his clay as a whole which would make His offense attacks faster as well.
Um no its not. Not when literally Gaara can move at the same range yet along w/ Sasori, who can replicate Gaara's moveset with his own IS (which he literally also increase his speed additionally). If they decide to go this high then both team 2 has no difficult doing the same thing. I never argued Gaara being the main offence. I literally only mentioning him boxing in his opponent so Sasori can pick them up with Spikes. Come see me when you have the feats of anyone in Team 1 avoiding a move breaking the sound barrier attack speed, other than speculating Deidara light clay moving fast enough avoid them, yet alone stoping an attack which can change its direction mid flight.
Deidara is Sasori's partner and you think he'll fall for such a simple trick? By the time it misses and Sasori changes its momentum, Deidara's clay bird will be far from the iron sand so it gets evaded again.
Lmao its not a simple trick. Not when the attack speed already can't be avoided. Your arguing that Deidara's lighten clay gets a speed boost when IS literally can increase its own speed too. The difference here is that we have feats on how fast the IS can move and you and others are speculating how fast Deidara will be moving in comparison.
Well your reply is irrelevant as it doesn't counter my argument that hitting a target at long range is harder than hitting a target at a closer range which is simple logic.
Come see me when you have the feats of anyone in Team 1 avoiding a move breaking the sound barrier attack speed, other than speculating Deidara light clay moving fast enough avoid them, yet alone stoping an attack which can change its direction mid flight.
You're repeating burden or proof fallacy. It failed to blitz them, period. Or if you wanted me to be precise, it failed to kill two lower tier characters than team 1. Onoki and Deidara showed better speed feats than what you're overrating.
You're repeating burden or proof fallacy. It failed to blitz them, period. Or if you wanted me to be precise, it failed to kill two lower tier characters than team 1. Onoki and Deidara showed better speed feats than what you're overrating.
You want me to disprove a baseless claim? Not how it works period. I literally address why my point stands already:
No hype by feats. IS speed has shown to move way faster then FRS(which is also a fast jutsu) as we seen the results of attacking the same character with different result via Chiyo. Onoki lighten speed is not faster then IS speed and Deidara lighten has to be faster then his orignal but speculation if implying that he will move faster then IS.
''IS speed has shown to move way faster then FRS(which is also a fast jutsu) as we seen the results of attacking the same character with different result via Chiyo.'' - Brother Numpsay
FRS is a fast Jutsu, correct, but is not as fast as you speculate it to be. FRS was dodged by Naraka Path, whom out of the 6 Paths, has the worst Taijutsu. This debunks the notion Chiyo is fast. Since it was mentally reacted by Chiyo; note: I said mentally and not physically, just in case you twist my word.
''Show me where Onoki and Deidara showed any better speed feats'' - Brother Numpsay
Onoki blitzed a genetically enhanced Kabuto [
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] and was able to physically keep up with Mu hit by a rotational Rasengan [
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], which for the latter is a legit speed feat, because the powerful Rasengan pushed Mu back so fast as one can determine it by the motion line. Deidara was keeping up with Onoki on his bird. [
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] They dodge it without trying, both mentally and physically; if they fail to dodge it physically, Doton Golem blocks it.
FRS is a fast Jutsu, correct, but is not as fast as you speculate it to be. FRS was dodged by Naraka Path, whom out of the 6 Paths, has the worst Taijutsu. This debunks the notion Chiyo is fast. Since it was mentally reacted by Chiyo; note: I said mentally and not physically, just in case you twist my word.
Bro Naraka Path dodging makes sense base on the fact that he was the furthest from the back[
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] out of the other pains(which they all struggled or had a hard time dodging, and not just that 1 scenario). 2) I never said Chiyo is some speedster, but she sure as hell have impressive dodging/reaction feats. @Bold I dont want to twist your words but I hope your talking about mentally reacting to IS then FRS. Because she physically avoided KCM FRS thrown at her. So I fail to see your point.
] and was able to physically keep up with Mu hit by a rotational Rasengan [
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], which for the latter is a legit speed feat, because the powerful Rasengan pushed Mu back so fast as one can determine it by the motion line. Deidara was keeping up with Onoki on his bird. [
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] They dodge it without trying, both mentally and physically; if they fail to dodge it physically, Doton Golem blocks it.
First scan doesn't prove or validate anything. Unless Kabuto saw that coming. Mu flying back from a Rasegan does not prove its on par with IS Shard travel speed lmao, come on bro. This isnt good ABC logic at all.
IS eats bed rock for breakfast, and Onoki can only provide small Golem in aerial battle. He needs the ground for Buijuu size Doton. So no Onoki is screw if he stays on ground and he is screw for lacking a strong defense in the air.
Um no its not. Not when literally Gaara can move at the same range yet along w/ Sasori, who can replicate Gaara's moveset with his own IS (which he literally also increase his speed additionally). If they decide to go this high then both team 2 has no difficult doing the same thing. I never argued Gaara being the main offence. I literally only mentioning him boxing in his opponent so Sasori can pick them up with Spikes. Come see me when you have the feats of anyone in Team 1 avoiding a move breaking the sound barrier attack speed, other than speculating Deidara light clay moving fast enough avoid them, yet alone stoping an attack which can change its direction mid flight.
So Sasori can take flight now? If he does that then he's def getting one shot since he has 0 evasive feats while he's in the air thats if he can even fly to begin with. Sasori cannot replicate Gaara's moveset at all. Gaara is never boxing in 2 people that can fly much faster than he can while also being 100m+ in the air it just isn't happening especially since they won't even be near each other when they begin to fight. Deidara flies in a completely different direction from Oonoki while Oonoki does the same and then they both attack from a huge distance. Sasori spikes were used in an closed in area and still failed to do what it was supposed to. Deidara and Oonoki have the entire sky as there playground what makes you think they wont effortlessly dodge this as well?
Already addressed IS attack speed+Sand interrupts any Jinton. And I'm not repeating my counters.
Yes and i assume Deidara is going to be watching while they stop Oonoki from using Jinton? Plus Oonoki can block himself with Rock golem then uses Jinton. They also should be thinking about going for the quick kill because once Deidara has enough time he'll drop c3 on them and unlike last time Gaara won't have the entire desert at his aid to block it. Sand duo get shat on face it.
First scan doesn't prove or validate anything. Unless Kabuto saw that coming. Mu flying back from a Rasegan does not prove its on par with IS Shard travel speed lmao, come on bro. This isnt good ABC logic at all.
Ninjas can sense things without having to see it, and he did notice it hence the exclamation mark.
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Dude, I'm comparing the motion line. At Sasori's scan it has ''woosh'' which means quick movement. The motion line indicate Mu was travelling at such speed from the Rasengan.
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IS eats bed rock for breakfast, and Onoki can only provide small Golem in aerial battle. He needs the ground for Buijuu size Doton. So no Onoki is screw if he stays on ground and he is screw for lacking a strong defense in the air.
You haven't illustrated how fast that attack is, that it's fast enough to blitz Onoki, but I clearly showed it's not blitzing him in anyway. Besides that, I don't know how you came to conclusion with the second paragraph. The Golem is formed from his mouth, which he can manipulate at any desired size.
It does when you try to make a point that 1 Path lacking Taijutsu shows dodging doesnt make FRS all that in speed, despite we witness Animal Path on the same exact boat (closer range) failed and relied on other bodies to react for them or giving them a heads up. Despite it was thrown more then once with them still struggling against it.
Dude, I'm comparing the motion line. At Sasori's scan it has ''woosh'' which means quick movement. The motion line indicate Mu was travelling at such speed from the Rasengan.
You haven't illustrated how fast that attack is, that it's fast enough to blitz Onoki, but I clearly showed it's not blitzing him in anyway. Besides that, I don't know how you came to conclusion with the second paragraph. The Golem is formed from his mouth, which he can manipulate at any desired size.
Yes I did. I compare the attack speed to another fast jutsu used against the same character with good reaction feats (better then Onoki). You failed to properly rebuttal against using 6 Paths as examples. Then you tried to validate feats, claims such as Onoki "blitzing Kabuto" and reacting to Muu traveling from the hit of Rasengan. Which my rebuttal shows not validated or comparable
Second paragraph is based on feats. By feats mouth source was never shown to be as big as on the ground feats. If you can back up @Bold then Ill concede this point. Because either way Ill just make another argument countering a justu that can deal with bigger shield anyway lol
So Sasori can take flight now? If he does that then he's def getting one shot since he has 0 evasive feats while he's in the air thats if he can even fly to begin with. Sasori cannot replicate Gaara's moveset at all. Gaara is never boxing in 2 people that can fly much faster than he can while also being 100m+ in the air it just isn't happening especially since they won't even be near each other when they begin to fight. Deidara flies in a completely different direction from Oonoki while Oonoki does the same and then they both attack from a huge distance. Sasori spikes were used in an closed in area and still failed to do what it was supposed to. Deidara and Oonoki have the entire sky as there playground what makes you think they wont effortlessly dodge this as well?
lol this should be common sense. 1.) Sasori has the same jutsu as Gaara in his possession but with IS. 2) DB states Rasa copied 3rd Kazekage jutsu, which Gaara obviously pick up some from his father. 3.) DB states IS can make any form at any situation. This is indisputable.
Not having the feats is irrelevant when 1) as I mentioned before he has a faster version of Gaara's jutsu. 2.) Gaara = Onoki in flight speed. 3.) IS can increase its speed by pumping more chakra. And I dont know where you get that from, saying Deidara and Onoki can fly faster then Gaara. When manga shows they are neck to nect in that department.
IS spikes never failed to do anything that refutes my point. Chiyo was forced to block the speed of its attacks, when she was capable of dodging a KCM FRS as an Edo (which only brings out close to your full potential). Team 1 having the entire sky means more room for IS to work, as DB states IS can be manipulated in mid flight.
Unless Team 1 has the feats to dodge something as fast as that then you will have a point.
Yes and i assume Deidara is going to be watching while they stop Oonoki from using Jinton? Plus Oonoki can block himself with Rock golem then uses Jinton. They also should be thinking about going for the quick kill because once Deidara has enough time he'll drop c3 on them and unlike last time Gaara won't have the entire desert at his aid to block it. Sand duo get shat on face it.
Your premise is to separate team 1 lmao, you separate them then Gaara boxes in Onoki and Sasori gang bangs. Since Clay birds (lighten) wont be effective for Gaara. Then Sasori picks up Deidara. And lmao at Dediara dropping off C3 to an aerial battle like it will be work.
