[Discussion] Can an Admiral one shot Luffy?

Skull Knight

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Jinbei fought Ace, a commander, to a 5 day standstill.
That time Ace was still a Rookie not a commander.

Jinbei has an elemental advantage over Cracker's biscuits and the strength to put him down once past. Also if Luffy taught us anything durability and stamina go a long way in a fight.
The element advantage only work when he's close to sea.
Durability n Stamina doesn't last long. Example Luffy ran out of juice at Dressrosa. If it wasn't for plot Doffy would have won that battle.
Its clear as day n night, if you don't have offensive skills then there's no chance u can beat your opponent.
In luffy's case he had KKG to ko Doffy. He had speed n power to beat those heavenly strings.
This things are missing in Fishman Karate or whatever Jinbei showed so far. Not to forget if Jinbei is commander lvl then that completely destroys the dynamics of SH crew(Monster Trio).
Saying someone can't beat Doffy one on one doesn't prohibit them from being commander level when Doffy himself is. Doffy locked up Jozu, broke free from one of Aokiji's attacks, took close to if not the most and biggest hits from G4 before being put down. To think Doffy is anything under 1st commander is weird.
Doffy isn't anywhere close to Katakuri or Marco's lvl.
He only got Jozu when he was fighting other guys. His strings cant do anything against his diamond skin. It was clear that only way to beat Jozu was when he was distracted(as seen when Aokiji froze his arm).
And luffy having harder time beating Cracker itself shows that Doffy at best is 4th commander lvl not first.

As for Boa there's a lot of advantages to get past but I agree if you can you have a good chance of beating her but a lot are going to be turned to stone before they can get that chance even commanders I would think. Plus the way Smoker said "Kuja haki" and them being one of, if not, the first to show it on a projectile leads me to believe they may have some above normal haki.
She was never ever hyped to be at Commander lvl.
Even BB loves Women does that mean she can turn him to stone???
you can go n watch 3D2Y to see what she can do.
 

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Jinbei fought Ace, a commander, to a 5 day standstill. Jinbei has an elemental advantage over Cracker's biscuits and the strength to put him down once past. Also if Luffy taught us anything durability and stamina go a long way in a fight.
That statement only hypes Ace and does nothing for Jinbei.
Ace a rookie was able to stalemate a veteran like Jinbei. Also I highly doubt that the Jinebi who fought Ace is any different than the one in WCI (maybe it is just me)

And secondly, Jinbei does have an elemental advantage against Cracker but you do realize that even if he breaks Crackers biscuit soldiers they will still reform right? Even Luffy couldn't handle so many biscuit soldiers reforming so that's why he was eating them! Are you saying Jinbei is going to eat all the biscuits?
 

chopstickchakra

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That time Ace was still a Rookie not a commander
Was he I thought it was once he was on WB's ship though. Even still Ace didn't live much longer it's not like there was a vast difference.


The element advantage only work when he's close to sea.
Durability n Stamina doesn't last long. Example Luffy ran out of juice at Dressrosa. If it wasn't for plot Doffy would have won that battle.
No the element advantage is even greater when close to sea, he can produce water from the moisture in the air. Luffy's never fought longer than a day, Jinbei's fought 5 at least once and the point was even if you're weaker than your opponent if you can out last them you can land a hit strong enough to win like Kata vs Luffy.

Its clear as day n night, if you don't have offensive skills then there's no chance u can beat your opponent.
In luffy's case he had KKG to ko Doffy. He had speed n power to beat those heavenly strings.
This things are missing in Fishman Karate or whatever Jinbei showed so far. Not to forget if Jinbei is commander lvl then that completely destroys the dynamics of SH crew(Monster Trio).
Now it sounds like you're saying he doesn't have offensive skills which would be inaccurate. He had hits that could push back BM, albeit a weakened one, and he had the ability to withstand hits from an Admiral and a Yonkou. Commanders aren't bringing as much hit as an Admiral or a Yonkou.

Doffy isn't anywhere close to Katakuri or Marco's lvl.
He only got Jozu when he was fighting other guys. His strings cant do anything against his diamond skin. It was clear that only way to beat Jozu was when he was distracted(as seen when Aokiji froze his arm).
And luffy having harder time beating Cracker itself shows that Doffy at best is 4th commander lvl not first.
I don't thinkDoffy wouldn't lose against any 2nd or 3rd division commanders given what we've seen, thus anything under first is odd. Yes he would lose to the 1st division commanders. Jozu, Vista, Smoothie, Cracker, Jack, Queen; we've seen 4 of them and I don't see anything in their arsenal that would put Doffy down. They'd give him a hard time no question but how would any of them win? Jozu - too slow, Vista - Doffy strings couldn't be cut by Fuji why would Vista?, Jack - same as Jozu, Cracker - swarm him with biscuits but only IF they can't be broken or cut by Doffy's strings. Queen and Smoothie are in the air but I don't have high hopes for Smoothie in that scenario.

Luffy had a harder time because of Crackers technique and that doesn't mean that other fighters with different skill sets would have that same trouble, that's borderline ABC logic. Cracker can make a lot of biscuits but can he awaken? Luffy's force broke a dry biscuit how can you say with certainty then that Doffy's awakened strings couldn't? Doffy should by all reason be able to make as many string clones as Cracker can biscuit soldiers.


She was never ever hyped to be at Commander lvl.
Even BB loves Women does that mean she can turn him to stone???
you can go n watch 3D2Y to see what she can do.
She's barely been used relative to how much story has happened and not every character needs to get explicit hype. Her title is hype and that titles' hype alone puts them around a similar level. That's the main idea behind the balance - Admirals for the yonkou and shichibukai for the commanders. Plus I still feel there's some deeper connection to the Kuja and haki and her being the queen would imply her to have some of the best haki even if not the most physically strong and yes I know that's speculation.
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That statement only hypes Ace and does nothing for Jinbei.
Ace a rookie was able to stalemate a veteran like Jinbei. Also I highly doubt that the Jinebi who fought Ace is any different than the one in WCI (maybe it is just me)

And secondly, Jinbei does have an elemental advantage against Cracker but you do realize that even if he breaks Crackers biscuit soldiers they will still reform right? Even Luffy couldn't handle so many biscuit soldiers reforming so that's why he was eating them! Are you saying Jinbei is going to eat all the biscuits?
And the Ace that was a commander probably wasn't much different either, he didn't live much longer after that.

Jinbei would likely be able to dissolve them better than Nami did since he should be able to produce more water and in that time before they've reformed, since we see it took time enough for Luffy to eat them, to land a hit strong enough to put Cracker down. Let's not forget Cracker's only hit was being shot from Luffy's stomach through 3-4 of his biscuits then some trees then some gap time until he hits the building. Luffy took more than 3-4 hits from those same biscuits so Cracker's durability is incredibly shaky imo. Jinbei despite his size is quick from what I remember, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume he'd be able to close a gap against Cracker.
 

Skull Knight

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Was he I thought it was once he was on WB's ship though. Even still Ace didn't live much longer it's not like there was a vast difference.
He was on WBs ship for a good period of time. In that time frame even BB praised his strength n he become 2nd Division commander.


No the element advantage is even greater when close to sea, he can produce water from the moisture in the air.
@bold
wait when did he do that???

Luffy's never fought longer than a day, Jinbei's fought 5 at least once and the point was even if you're weaker than your opponent if you can out last them you can land a hit strong enough to win like Kata vs Luffy.
You still not getting. The 5day long fight didn't yield any result is because he didn't have the ability to pin Ace down which BB had.
You cannot keep standing up saying i will outlast my opponent. Doffy vs Luffy was best example. Luffy ran out of juice. No matter how much stamina he had if he cannot hit the killing blow then its useless.

Now it sounds like you're saying he doesn't have offensive skills which would be inaccurate. He had hits that could push back BM, albeit a weakened one, and he had the ability to withstand hits from an Admiral and a Yonkou. Commanders aren't bringing as much hit as an Admiral or a Yonkou.
that hit from Mama sent him flying.
He stopped one punch from Akainu n immediately needed help from others to stop him.
And pushing someone a lil far doesn't mean he has high offensive attacks.
(Even G3 luffy pushed Fuji back).

i don't know why u r adamant that Jinbei is commander lvl but the simple fact that most of the commanders are shown with a bounty close to billion beli is enough to say who is a commander lvl guy n whose not(n unlike Doffy Jinbei's bounty wasn't frozen after MF arc). So that's 2 years where he aligned himself with another Yonko n still his bounty didn't rise.

I don't thinkDoffy wouldn't lose against any 2nd or 3rd division commanders given what we've seen, thus anything under first is odd. Yes he would lose to the 1st division commanders. Jozu, Vista, Smoothie, Cracker, Jack, Queen; we've seen 4 of them and I don't see anything in their arsenal that would put Doffy down. They'd give him a hard time no question but how would any of them win? Jozu - too slow, Vista - Doffy strings couldn't be cut by Fuji why would Vista?, Jack - same as Jozu, Cracker - swarm him with biscuits but only IF they can't be broken or cut by Doffy's strings. Queen and Smoothie are in the air but I don't have high hopes for Smoothie in that scenario.
Jozu wasn't slow. He successfully intercepted Mihawks slash and Aokiji freezing WB.
And Doffy has nothing where he can beat any of the commander u mentioned above.
I think once we see queen,jack n king in action we will have a clear idea about the power difference between Yonko commanders n shichibhkai like doffy n jinbei

Luffy had a harder time because of Crackers technique and that doesn't mean that other fighters with different skill sets would have that same trouble, that's borderline ABC logic. Cracker can make a lot of biscuits but can he awaken? Luffy's force broke a dry biscuit how can you say with certainty then that Doffy's awakened strings couldn't? Doffy should by all reason be able to make as many string clones as Cracker can biscuit soldiers.
And luffy needed to constantly eat those biscuits. unless doffy start eating them they will keep coming back.
And how many clones did doffy made in dressrosa ??? Only one.
So i don't understand the argument that he can make more clones.

She's barely been used relative to how much story has happened and not every character needs to get explicit hype. Her title is hype and that titles' hype alone puts them around a similar level. That's the main idea behind the balance - Admirals for the yonkou and shichibukai for the commanders. Plus I still feel there's some deeper connection to the Kuja and haki and her being the queen would imply her to have some of the best haki even if not the most physically strong and yes I know that's speculation.
her title isn't hype.
Oda already showed us what she's capable of in 3D2Y. She has nothing that can bring a Commander to his/her knee. Forget about knocking one.
And Shichibukais are not equal to Commanders(except few).
 
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chopstickchakra

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He was on WBs ship for a good period of time. In that time frame even BB praised his strength n he become 2nd Division commander.
I'm not saying Ace wasn't strong or deserving of his title, trust me I've been saying Ace is under-rated and argued he should be assumed to have haki before the novel came out, I'm just saying that the Ace that fought Jinbei and the Ace who died at MF aren't that far apart most likely. Ace was 20 when he died, he left Dawn Island at 17. That's a 3 year pirate career.

Also I just double checked and you're right he did fight Jinbei before being a WB pirate. WB also heard about the battle and arrived at the end offering Ace to join, so... Ace fought Jinbei about a year, a little after, forming the Spade pirates according to the novel.

@bold
wait when did he do that???


He also did it when he used Vagabond Drill against Wadatsumi


You still not getting. The 5day long fight didn't yield any result is because he didn't have the ability to pin Ace down which BB had.
You cannot keep standing up saying i will outlast my opponent. Doffy vs Luffy was best example. Luffy ran out of juice. No matter how much stamina he had if he cannot hit the killing blow then its useless.
Yes he did, FMK allows users to hit those who are usually resistant because of the water particles in the body, this includes logias and Luffy.
Also I never said he could win solely on that, you're the one who keeps insisting on this notion that Jinbei has no offensive strength/capabilities for some reason.


that hit from Mama sent him flying.
He stopped one punch from Akainu n immediately needed help from others to stop him.
So? Did it knock him out? Did it break anything? Did it incapacitate him? That same one punch went through two other characters, and no since I see how you react, no I am NOT saying Jinbei>WB in durability or strength.

And pushing someone a lil far doesn't mean he has high offensive attacks.
(Even G3 luffy pushed Fuji back).
Not a good example man, G3 Luffy has HIGH offensive attacks so what point are you trying to make here?

i don't know why u r adamant that Jinbei is commander lvl but the simple fact that most of the commanders are shown with a bounty close to billion beli is enough to say who is a commander lvl guy n whose not(n unlike Doffy Jinbei's bounty wasn't frozen after MF arc). So that's 2 years where he aligned himself with another Yonko n still his bounty didn't rise.
Because I think he is and that's what having a discussion is, adamantly presenting the points you feel represent your feeling. Commanders bounties are not frozen like Shichibukai so that has no bearing, in fact every shichibukai who has been knocked out of the system has had their bounty increased iirc. Just because it became unfrozen after MF arc doesn't negate it was frozen how ever many years he was a shichibukai.


Jozu wasn't slow. He successfully intercepted Mihawks slash and Aokiji freezing WB.

Too slow and slow are not the same thing. I didn't say Jozu was slow but that he was too slow to be able to catch and keep up with Doffy in a fight.

And Doffy has nothing where he can beat any of the commander u mentioned above.
I think once we see queen,jack n king in action we will have a clear idea about the power difference between Yonko commanders n shichibhkai like doffy n jinbei
I'm guessing this is in reply to none of them have anything to beat Doffy? So no counter point to how they would win just changing the subject then?

Jozu - he showed he was able to catch in Parasite, couple that with Black knight and all his other moves that's your chance of victory.

Cracker - Use awakening to pierce and break biscuits and attack real body. Shit since his biscuits are technically inorganic things created who's to say Doffy's awakening wouldn't also turn them to string in the one instance we saw it turned everything not a living in the vicinity to string. Using your reasoning that's the way we saw it work so that's how it has to work all the time..right?

Jack it would come down to if his endurance and Vista his skill, I think in both these cases Doffy has them edged - Doffy's attack strength and versatility > Jack's endurance and Doffy's string strength > Vista's sword strength as evidenced by Fuji and Zoro having problems cutting them.

And luffy needed to constantly eat those biscuits. unless doffy start eating them they will keep coming back.
Luffy needed to eat to maintain his energy for G4 which Doffy doesn't use so his energy isn't getting burned as bad, we've already seen a damaged Doffy outlast a G4 so we know his energy use is lower than that of G4.

And how many clones did doffy made in dressrosa ??? Only one.
So i don't understand the argument that he can make more clones.
So now the absence of evidence is the evidence of absence? Because the only time we've seen him use it he did it X way so that's the only way it can be done? That's not a reasonable argument. It's just using strings, his awakening turned the entire town to string, what's stopping them from becoming black knights?


her title isn't hype.
Oda already showed us what she's capable of in 3D2Y. She has nothing that can bring a Commander to his/her knee. Forget about knocking one.
And Shichibukais are not equal to Commanders(except few).
Yes the title of shichibukai exists as a hype tool. Getting that title makes your name more reputable to others and let's them know what the WG thinks of your power, i.e. being good enough to be part of the main power balancing factions. Also I disagree I would argue 4 are definitely and 2 are arguable and Moriah is not, he may have been at one point back when they offered him the spot but as Luffy said he got lazy with his shadow army.
 
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Skull Knight

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I'm not saying Ace wasn't strong or deserving of his title, trust me I've been saying Ace is under-rated and argued he should be assumed to have haki before the novel came out, I'm just saying that the Ace that fought Jinbei and the Ace who died at MF aren't that far apart most likely. Ace was 20 when he died, he left Dawn Island at 17. That's a 3 year pirate career.

Also I just double checked and you're right he did fight Jinbei before being a WB pirate. WB also heard about the battle and arrived at the end offering Ace to join, so... Ace fought Jinbei about a year, a little after, forming the Spade pirates according to the novel.
I haven't read Ace's novel but the fight happened in his 1St year(if i m not wrong ). That means he had like 2years with WB.
Lets also not forget he spent good deal of time at WB's ship. That's the reason BB immediately told his crew that he wasnt the Average Joe they facing which means he closely saw Ace's strength.
And in 3years time one can grow a lot. Just look at Luffy.



He also did it when he used Vagabond Drill against
he can only manipulate water, he cant produce it.

Yes he did, FMK allows users to hit those who are usually resistant because of the water particles in the body, this includes logias and Luffy.
Also I never said he could win solely on that, you're the one who keeps insisting on this notion that Jinbei has no offensive strength/capabilities for some reason.
We already saw FMK capabilities and the whole water manipulating is nice but when it comes to top lvl guys like Kata n Marco they can simply bypass it like seen when Kata was following Luffy. It also cant beat guys who has good defence like hack trying to use FMK on Barto but he broke his own hand in that process.


So? Did it knock him out? Did it break anything? Did it incapacitate him? That same one punch went through two other characters, and no since I see how you react, no I am NOT saying Jinbei>WB in durability or strength.
Not a good example man, G3 Luffy has HIGH offensive attacks so what point are you trying to make here?
Point is G3 ain't doing shit to Commander lvl guys now.

So G3 attacks doesn't make Luffy Commander lvl even when he can push an Admiral with that.


Because I think he is and that's what having a discussion is, adamantly presenting the points you feel represent your feeling. Commanders bounties are not frozen like Shichibukai so that has no bearing, in fact every shichibukai who has been knocked out of the system has had their bounty increased iirc. Just because it became unfrozen after MF arc doesn't negate it was frozen how ever many years he was a shichibukai.
And he had 2years.
he aligned himself with Mama n still his bounty didn't rise.
That shows he isn't a commander lvl threat.
Even SHs dynamics also collapse if Jinbei is shown as Yonko commander lvl guy as both Zoro n Sanji needs to beat one to prove they are at that lvl.


Too slow and slow are not the same thing. I didn't say Jozu was slow but that he was too slow to be able to catch and keep up with Doffy in a fight.
No. Doffy only caught him when Jozu was fighting Crocodile{DISTRACTION}.
even Crocodile said he's so big yet so fast.
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I'm guessing this is in reply to none of them have anything to beat Doffy? So no counter point to how they would win just changing the subject then?

Jozu - he showed he was able to catch in Parasite, couple that with Black knight and all his other moves that's your chance of victory.
he only caught him when he was distracted. those strings cant bypass his diamond skin if its one vs one sort of fight.

Cracker - Use awakening to pierce and break biscuits and attack real body. Shit since his biscuits are technically inorganic things created who's to say Doffy's awakening wouldn't also turn them to string in the one instance we saw it turned everything not a living in the vicinity to string. Using your reasoning that's the way we saw it work so that's how it has to work all the time..right?
How u r sure his strings can destroy those biscuits???
Lets not forget Luffy himself said Cracker had strongest Armament Haki till that date.


Jack it would come down to if his endurance and Vista his skill, I think in both these cases Doffy has them edged - Doffy's attack strength and versatility > Jack's endurance
How's Doffy Versatility > Jacks endurance. Jack was fighting Minks, Dukes for 5days. His subordinates kept falling but he kept fighting. Minks are most versatile fighters as they got electric gloves, Shulong n other stuff yet they cant beat Jack.

and Doffy's string strength > Vista's sword strength as evidenced by Fuji and Zoro having problems cutting them.
Now u r reaching. Vista was holding Mihawk(WSS) but u saying Doffy's strings > Vistas Sword :lmao:


Luffy needed to eat to maintain his energy for G4 which Doffy doesn't use so his energy isn't getting burned as bad, we've already seen a damaged Doffy outlast a G4 so we know his energy use is lower than that of G4.
Doffy outlasted only 1 G4. We don't even know how many G4 Cracker outlasted. Not to forget Luffy had an advantage inform of eating biscuits n kept regaining his stamina.


Yes the title of shichibukai exists as a hype tool. Getting that title makes your name more reputable to others and let's them know what the WG thinks of your power, i.e. being good enough to be part of the main power balancing factions.
its not hype tool.
Shichibukais are Privateers who works for WG n inreturn they can continue there piracy which WG will ignore to a certain limit.
Lets also not forget that this system will be soon abolished so the whole balance thing will also end with it.
They were never made to counter Yonko.
Also I disagree I would argue 4 are definitely and 2 are arguable and Moriah is not, he may have been at one point back when they offered him the spot but as Luffy said he got lazy with his shadow army.
No just no.
Only Mihawk, BB, Weevil n Doffy(if u consider him like 4th commander lvl).
Rest are nowhere near Commander lvl.
 
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chopstickchakra

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I haven't read Ace's novel but the fight happened in his 1St year(if i m not wrong ). That means he had like 2years with WB.
Lets also not forget he spent good deal of time at WB's ship. That's the reason BB immediately told his crew that he wasnt the Average Joe they facing which means he closely saw Ace's strength.
And in 3years time one can grow a lot. Just look at Luffy.
It was into his 1st year which means about a year and half a Spade Pirate about a year and a half a WB Pirate. He had 2 years at best on WB's ship and he was made commander before the 2 years. So knowing what wb thought of Ace, his power at the time and his growth rate it's not unreasonable to assume he was a commander within the first 6 months of joining.

he can only manipulate water, he cant produce it.

We already saw FMK capabilities and the whole water manipulating is nice but when it comes to top lvl guys like Kata n Marco they can simply bypass it like seen when Kata was following Luffy. It also cant beat guys who has good defence like hack trying to use FMK on Barto but he broke his own hand in that process.
Did you not look at the panels in the spoiler? It's literally dripping from his hand, you can go read the descriptions too it says they secret the liquid for the attack. How would they bypass a wide aoe attack that travels through the water particles in the air and their body? They could defend sure but how exactly would they bypass it so nonchalantly? You're comparing Hack to Jinbei, the Jinbei downplay game is strong with you.


Point is G3 ain't doing shit to Commander lvl guys now.

So G3 attacks doesn't make Luffy Commander lvl even when he can push an Admiral with that.
Maybe not, I think it would do well against the likes of Jozu and Jack, enough hits from G3 and they'd go down but G will do it quicker and look better.

And he had 2years.
he aligned himself with Mama n still his bounty didn't rise.
That shows he isn't a commander lvl threat.
Even SHs dynamics also collapse if Jinbei is shown as Yonko commander lvl guy as both Zoro n Sanji needs to beat one to prove they are at that lvl.
Now that he's joined SH's it'll jump up. Ace was 550 and Snack was 600, Jinbei's at 438 higher than Zoro and Sanji atm. in fact higher than a majority of the Worst Gen. and close to Law who is arguably commander level as well.

No. Doffy only caught him when Jozu was fighting Crocodile{DISTRACTION}.
even Crocodile said he's so big yet so fast.
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Replace Croc with a Black Knight and you can get the same result....

Again, not saying he isn't fast, saying he's not fast enough.

Even luffy was caught in Parasite n he broke free.
Yeah and go back and check because Luffy's been the ONLY person shown to break those strings so far. Not Jozu, not Fuji, not Zoro and if you reread it is implied it was due to the expansion of his body which is a feat Jozu can't do.

How u r sure his strings can destroy those biscuits???
Lets not forget Luffy himself said Cracker had strongest Armament Haki till that date.


Because Luffy did break a biscuit with G3 iirc and piercing is easier than breaking and Doffy had hits that matched G3's power iirc.

How's Doffy Versatility > Jacks endurance. Jack was fighting Minks, Dukes for 5days. His subordinates kept falling but he kept fighting. Minks are most versatile fighters as they got electric gloves, Shulong n other stuff yet they cant beat Jack.
Because Doffy has enough moves to keep the distance from Jack and whittle him down. String Bullet, Black Knight, Pentachromatic string, Flight, Overheat, awakening. Don't forget Jack couldn't get the upper hand on the Dukes until he used his poison gas weapon which we don't know if that's a regular weapon or brought for that one time occasion yet.

We just learned about Sulong and it only happens during full moons which if there was just one then there wouldn't have been one during the Jack fight.
Now u r reaching. Vista was holding Mihawk(WSS) but u saying Doffy's strings > Vistas Sword :lmao:
Only because Fuji was unable to cut them so if Fuji can't Vista shouldn't be able to either and Doffy has ten fingers to block his two blades. If Doffy was a slow character I'd say there's a better case for Vista but Vista didn't show any exceptional speed feats.

Doffy outlasted only 1 G4. We don't even know how many G4 Cracker outlasted. Not to forget Luffy had an advantage inform of eating biscuits n kept regaining his stamina.
That's what I said A G4, why feel the need to reiterate it? Doffy survived 1 G4 session and 2 G4 beatings being KO'd at the end of the 2nd. Cracker evaded an unknown amount of G4 seesions but got KO'd on the first hit from G4.

its not hype tool.
Shichibukais are Privateers who works for WG n inreturn they can continue there piracy which WG will ignore to a certain limit.
I don't think you know what a hype tool is in story telling, a hype tool is any device used in the context of the story to imply strength of a character before anything else is known. This can be legends, titles, reputation etc. Defining what the shichibukai adds nothing to this discussion. When someone is assigned the Shichibukai title, their hype goes up by extension. The OP world sees the shichibukai as one of the 3 great balances in their world.

Lets also not forget that this system will be soon abolished so the whole balance thing will also end with it.
They were never made to counter Yonko.
What does that have at all to do with the conversation? Please try to stay on as narrow of a topic as you can this is already diverging way more than it should be. Also I never said they were made to counter Yonko that's the Admirals, the Shichibukai are meant to counter the commanders if and when the WG has to fight a Yonkou crew.

No just no.
Only Mihawk, BB, Weevil n Doffy(if u consider him like 4th commander lvl).
Rest are nowhere near Commander lvl.
Yes just yes. Also said 4 and you listed 4, smh.
Mihawk, Kuma, Doffy and Jinbei - yes
Croc, Boa - maybe
Moriah - no
BB, Law, Weevil - yes
Buggy - of course he's PK level Mihawk can't even beat him.

All in all there's more evidence to support Jinbei being able to hang with and beat some of the 3rd commanders particularly Cracker maybe Jack or Jozu than there is against it. Same for Doffy particularly beating Jozu or Jack maybe Vista Queen or Smoothie based on their showings later.
 

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It was into his 1st year which means about a year and half a Spade Pirate about a year and a half a WB Pirate. He had 2 years at best on WB's ship and he was made commander before the 2 years. So knowing what wb thought of Ace, his power at the time and his growth rate it's not unreasonable to assume he was a commander within the first 6 months of joining.
No he wasn't commander when he joined. It took some time for him to climb that rank. In that time frame he defeated lots of WB allies n travelled to Wano.

Did you not look at the panels in the spoiler? It's literally dripping from his hand, you can go read the descriptions too it says they secret the liquid for the attack. How would they bypass a wide aoe attack that travels through the water particles in the air and their body? They could defend sure but how exactly would they bypass it so nonchalantly? You're comparing Hack to Jinbei, the Jinbei downplay game is strong with you.
Here u can clearly see FMK has no effect on Katakuri

So that thing does nothing to Commander lvl guys


Maybe not, I think it would do well against the likes of Jozu and Jack, enough hits from G3 and they'd go down but G will do it quicker and look better.
Lol No. You are probably the last one who thinks G3 hits can beat a commander lvl guy when its clear that it cant beat Doffy.

Now that he's joined SH's it'll jump up. Ace was 550 and Snack was 600, Jinbei's at 438 higher than Zoro and Sanji atm. in fact higher than a majority of the Worst Gen. and close to Law who is arguably commander level as well.
Law isn't a commander lvl guy yet.
For his bounty to jump he needs to showcase better power display.

Replace Croc with a Black Knight and you can get the same result....

Again, not saying he isn't fast, saying he's not fast enough.
A shichibukai himself said he's fast yet you disagree.

Yeah and go back and check because Luffy's been the ONLY person shown to break those strings so far. Not Jozu, not Fuji, not Zoro and if you reread it is implied it was due to the expansion of his body which is a feat Jozu can't do.
One Fuji n Zoro were never caught in Parasyte.
Two nobody knows how Jozu broke free of Parasyte. It can be same way like Luffy did.
Three those strings pierced luffy because his G4 armament works a lil different then how it works for others.



Because Luffy did break a biscuit with G3 iirc and piercing is easier than breaking and Doffy had hits that matched G3's power iirc.
No he didn't. It was G4 last i check which broke that biscuit armor.
And no piercing doesn't help as luffy n Jinbei was hit by swords when they used Armament n the sword didn't pierced through there body.

Because Doffy has enough moves to keep the distance from Jack and whittle him down. String Bullet, Black Knight, Pentachromatic string, Flight, Overheat, awakening. Don't forget Jack couldn't get the upper hand on the Dukes until he used his poison gas weapon which we don't know if that's a regular weapon or brought for that one time occasion yet.
Even if we remove that Gas weapon one should not forger that Jack fought 5days continuous with Dukes. Dukes had 12hour rest. Jack didn't. Even Zunisha's trunk attack didnt do much. So how r u sure that Doffy can beat a brawler like Jack when he himself lost to Luffy?


Only because Fuji was unable to cut them so if Fuji can't Vista shouldn't be able to either and Doffy has ten fingers to block his two blades. If Doffy was a slow character I'd say there's a better case for Vista but Vista didn't show any exceptional speed feats.
Lol Vista hardly had screentime yet u dismiss him saying he didn't have speed feats when he clearly stopped Mihawk n Akainu with Marco.

That's what I said A G4, why feel the need to reiterate it? Doffy survived 1 G4 session and 2 G4 beatings being KO'd at the end of the 2nd. Cracker evaded an unknown amount of G4 seesions but got KO'd on the first hit from G4.
Cracker wasn't knocked by G4attacks. He was sent flying because of the high tension of enlarged Luffy where he got stuck n luffy used that opportunity to sent him towards his own biscuits. Not to forget Luffy explicitly told Nami not to soften the biscuits.
If it wasn't for Nami he can keep making those biscuits n kept using them as his frontal assault while he can occasionally jump to hit his opponent when he is at his lowest.
Doffy doesn't have things to weaken his biscuit form. Piercing doesn't help with armament too.
I don't think you know what a hype tool is in story telling, a hype tool is any device used in the context of the story to imply strength of a character before anything else is known. This can be legends, titles, reputation etc. Defining what the shichibukai adds nothing to this discussion. When someone is assigned the Shichibukai title, their hype goes up by extension. The OP world sees the shichibukai as one of the 3 great balances in their world.
And now they want to get rid of one of the balance. Shuchibukais were only used by WG to get rid of rookies n do there bidding.
No matter how much famous they are they are replaceable. Heck even a guy like BB just ask for a shichibukai title n they gave it to him inexchange of Ace.
At that point half of the OPverse had no idea who or what BB was.

What does that have at all to do with the conversation? Please try to stay on as narrow of a topic as you can this is already diverging way more than it should be. Also I never said they were made to counter Yonko that's the Admirals, the Shichibukai are meant to counter the commanders if and when the WG has to fight a Yonkou crew.
Now i will come to the point. At MF how many shichibukai did u see fighting Yonko commanders???
and by Yonko commanders i mean top 3.
Only Mihawk n Doffy.
That itself will show you that they were not meant to fight Commanders or act as equivalent to them.
To a certain extent even Crocodile tried to stir things but he got his a** kicked by Jozu.
Yes just yes. Also said 4 and you listed 4, smh.
Mihawk, Kuma, Doffy and Jinbei - yes
Croc, Boa - maybe
Moriah - no
BB, Law, Weevil - yes
Buggy - of course he's PK level Mihawk can't even beat him.
Oh for heavens sake stop saying Boa even has a chance to beat Yonko Commander and kuma is a speculation.
All in all there's more evidence to support Jinbei being able to hang with and beat some of the 3rd commanders particularly Cracker maybe Jack or Jozu than there is against it. Same for Doffy particularly beating Jozu or Jack maybe Vista Queen or Smoothie based on their showings later.
No.
lol how can he beat Jack who is also a half human half fishman. Even jack fought for 5days straight not with rookies but with experience fighters n yet didn't fall down like Jinbei.
Lets also not forget Jinbei had an element advantage over Ace n he still lost as he was the first one to fall. Yet u think he can beat Jack.
 

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Ot: if kaido could hit an angered Luffy, so can an admiral. And if an admiral hits Luffy with a head shot like kaido, he's done for.
 

Dęvîa Puęrî

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He was on WBs ship for a good period of time. In that time frame even BB praised his strength n he become 2nd Division commander.



@bold
wait when did he do that???


You still not getting. The 5day long fight didn't yield any result is because he didn't have the ability to pin Ace down which BB had.
You cannot keep standing up saying i will outlast my opponent. Doffy vs Luffy was best example. Luffy ran out of juice. No matter how much stamina he had if he cannot hit the killing blow then its useless.


that hit from Mama sent him flying.
He stopped one punch from Akainu n immediately needed help from others to stop him.
And pushing someone a lil far doesn't mean he has high offensive attacks.
(Even G3 luffy pushed Fuji back).

i don't know why u r adamant that Jinbei is commander lvl but the simple fact that most of the commanders are shown with a bounty close to billion beli is enough to say who is a commander lvl guy n whose not(n unlike Doffy Jinbei's bounty wasn't frozen after MF arc). So that's 2 years where he aligned himself with another Yonko n still his bounty didn't rise.


Jozu wasn't slow. He successfully intercepted Mihawks slash and Aokiji freezing WB.
And Doffy has nothing where he can beat any of the commander u mentioned above.
I think once we see queen,jack n king in action we will have a clear idea about the power difference between Yonko commanders n shichibhkai like doffy n jinbei


And luffy needed to constantly eat those biscuits. unless doffy start eating them they will keep coming back.
And how many clones did doffy made in dressrosa ??? Only one.
So i don't understand the argument that he can make more clones.


her title isn't hype.
Oda already showed us what she's capable of in 3D2Y. She has nothing that can bring a Commander to his/her knee. Forget about knocking one.
And Shichibukais are not equal to Commanders(except few).
I don't know why people believe cracker would defeat doffy. I mean the awakeneing can attack from all sides and if dodgy starts flying exactly how would cracker hit him? Don't worry I'll wait
 

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I don't know why people believe cracker would defeat doffy. I mean the awakeneing can attack from all sides and if dodgy starts flying exactly how would cracker hit him? Don't worry I'll wait
Didn't Cracker beat Urogue who is a skypiean.
Skypieans use dials to fly so if he can beat a guy like that what makes your think he cant beat Doffy.
With flight Doffy can only maintain distance from Cracker. Who knows Cracker has long slash attacks to counter that after all he is a swordsman.
 

chopstickchakra

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No he wasn't commander when he joined. It took some time for him to climb that rank. In that time frame he defeated lots of WB allies n travelled to Wano.
All right comprehensions gonna continue to be an issue I see so I'll be stopping this after this, I feel I've presented ample reasons to consider Jinbei and Doffy as commander level. To your points;

I didn't say he was a commander when he joined I said he was made commander soon after joining likely within the first 6 months. Ace had a 3 year career. He left at 17 and spent the 1st year forming the Spade Pirates, that's 17-18. He spent the next year, that's 18-19, searching for whitebeard, fighting Jinbei and joining the WB Pirates. This probably happened within the year, so Ace would be likely be 18 and a few months when he joined. He then spent 1 year-ish, 18 and months - 20, as a WB Pirate and at some point became a commander. Ace died at 20.

My original point about this was that Ace became a commander of WB's soon after the fight with Jinbei, within a year, and that the growth in that period likely wasn't that great, so Jinbei fighting Ace is an example of him contending with commander level opponents.

Here u can clearly see FMK has no effect on Katakuri

So that thing does nothing to Commander lvl guys
Because all commanders are the same? As if Katakuri isn't clearly above Cracker? And fair point he was able to get around it but that doesn't mean if he was still in the aoe that he would be unaffected.

Lol No. You are probably the last one who thinks G3 hits can beat a commander lvl guy when its clear that it cant beat Doffy.
Gear 3 couldn't beat Doffy because it was too slow to hit him, a problem that likely wouldn't exist against the likes of Jozu or Jack.

Law isn't a commander lvl guy yet.
For his bounty to jump he needs to showcase better power display.
Yes, he is, he's showcased the power and tactical ability to compete against top level opponents and bounty doesn't equal commander level especially when those commanders had years longer to gain that bounty. You're so hung up on Cracker or Kata's bounty but Law got half way to Kata's bounty in a few years.

A shichibukai himself said he's fast yet you disagree.
Show me where I said that, because and again, not being fast enough to dodge a faster opponent is not the same as not being fast. Luffy is fast but he's not fast enough to catch Kizaru, am I saying Luffy's not fast now?

One Fuji n Zoro were never caught in Parasyte.
Who said they were and how does that change that they were unable to cut his strings?

Two nobody knows how Jozu broke free of Parasyte. It can be same way like Luffy did.
Doffy released it when Croc refused his offer and attacked. Jozu was never shown breaking out and to assume he did is baseless.

Three those strings pierced luffy because his G4 armament works a lil different then how it works for others.
What does that have to do with no one else being shown to break them? Actually that just helps to show the strength of his strings that were able to pierce him which iirc Cracker's stab didn't.

No he didn't. It was G4 last i check which broke that biscuit armor.
You could be right, I thought I remembered him breaking a shield with a G3 punch but I could be wrong.

And no piercing doesn't help
Yes, piercing does make it easier to go through something than blunt force. If you take the force and focus it to a single point it will travel with less resistance. It's easier to drive a nail in a board than it is to drive a square peg into a board.

as luffy n Jinbei was hit by swords when they used Armament n the sword didn't pierced through there body.
This doesn't negate physics. It means in that instance their defense was above the force against them. This isn't a valid counter point.

Even if we remove that Gas weapon one should not forger that Jack fought 5days continuous with Dukes. Dukes had 12hour rest. Jack didn't. Even Zunisha's trunk attack didnt do much. So how r u sure that Doffy can beat a brawler like Jack when he himself lost to Luffy?
I'm not sure, but from what we've seen the indication for me is he can. Also Luffy is faster and probably stronger than Jack so that doesn't really mean anything. The Dukes as far as we know had to get in close which is something Doffy doesn't need to do.

Lol Vista hardly had screentime yet u dismiss him saying he didn't have speed feats when he clearly stopped Mihawk n Akainu with Marco.
He didn't have any exceptional speed feats, he didn't blitz anyone who showed to be a top speed style fighter. He's shown top tier level speed but nothing to imply he has speed far greater than the rest of those in his grouping. Also isn't that the same reasoning you used earlier, that's what we saw when we saw it so that's the only way it'll ever be? I seem to recall you using that.

Cracker wasn't knocked by G4attacks. He was sent flying because of the high tension of enlarged Luffy where he got stuck n luffy used that opportunity to sent him towards his own biscuits.
Not to forget Luffy explicitly told Nami not to soften the biscuits.
If it wasn't for Nami he can keep making those biscuits n kept using them as his frontal assault while he can occasionally jump to hit his opponent when he is at his lowest.
Doffy doesn't have things to weaken his biscuit form. Piercing doesn't help with armament too.
That's still a G4 attack, Luffy was in G4 mode when he took him in and launched him. You're acting like his biscuits are the hardest things in the world because Luffy said his arm haki was the strongest he had felt yet. Those biscuits weren't colored like they were coated in haki like everything else is when he hit them so all we can assume is he hit his biscuits not hakified biscuits.

And now they want to get rid of one of the balance. Shuchibukais were only used by WG to get rid of rookies n do there bidding.
That's why they were called in to help against WB right?

No matter how much famous they are they are replaceable. Heck even a guy like BB just ask for a shichibukai title n they gave it to him inexchange of Ace.
At that point half of the OPverse had no idea who or what BB was.
You're helping prove my point, before the Shichibukai title barely anyone knew BB which proves that the Shichibukai title helped boost his hype around the world.

Now i will come to the point. At MF how many shichibukai did u see fighting Yonko commanders???
and by Yonko commanders i mean top 3.
Only Mihawk n Doffy.
That itself will show you that they were not meant to fight Commanders or act as equivalent to them.
To a certain extent even Crocodile tried to stir things but he got his a** kicked by Jozu.
The 3 commanders had to deal with the Admirals until WB got involved, once he got involved and the Admirals focused on him that's when you started to see the commanders clash with the Shichibukai.

Oh for heavens sake stop saying Boa even has a chance to beat Yonko Commander and kuma is a speculation.
No.

Yes.

lol how can he beat Jack who is also a half human half fishman. Even jack fought for 5days straight not with rookies but with experience fighters n yet didn't fall down like Jinbei.
Lets also not forget Jinbei had an element advantage over Ace n he still lost as he was the first one to fall. Yet u think he can beat Jack.
As I laid out numerous times already, he can keep the distance and whittle away at Jack's endurance with attacks like Bullet String, Overheat, Black Knight and his awakening.

Ot: if kaido could hit an angered Luffy, so can an admiral. And if an admiral hits Luffy with a head shot like kaido, he's done for.
If Kaido, the stated best bet in a 1v1, can do it people comparable to him can as well isn't really the best argument. Also Akainu would probably be the only one who could do that I would think.[/quote][/quote]
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Didn't Cracker beat Urogue who is a skypiean.
Skypieans use dials to fly so if he can beat a guy like that what makes your think he cant beat Doffy.
With flight Doffy can only maintain distance from Cracker. Who knows Cracker has long slash attacks to counter that after all he is a swordsman.
Have you ever seen Urogue fly? Just giving people abilities you haven't even seen because it sounds right and helps your case?
 

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All right comprehensions gonna continue to be an issue I see so I'll be stopping this after this, I feel I've presented ample reasons to consider Jinbei and Doffy as commander level.

To your points;

I didn't say he was a commander when he joined I said he was made commander soon after joining likely within the first 6 months. Ace had a 3 year career. He left at 17 and spent the 1st year forming the Spade Pirates, that's 17-18. He spent the next year, that's 18-19, searching for whitebeard, fighting Jinbei and joining the WB Pirates. This probably happened within the year, so Ace would be likely be 18 and a few months when he joined. He then spent 1 year-ish, 18 and months - 20, as a WB Pirate and at some point became a commander. Ace died at 20.

My original point about this was that Ace became a commander of WB's soon after the fight with Jinbei, within a year, and that the growth in that period likely wasn't that great, so Jinbei fighting Ace is an example of him contending with commander level opponents.
If he was a commander lvl guy then he would have been given the 2nd division commander after the fight.
He spent decent amount of time on WBs ship thats why BB knew very well how strong he was.
Have u ever thought if Jinbei was commander lvl WB pirates would have given that seat to him.
So your argument is flawed.
Because all commanders are the same? As if Katakuri isn't clearly above Cracker? And fair point he was able to get around it but that doesn't mean if he was still in the aoe that he would be unaffected.
I showed u the scan n given examples of Hack yet u disagree.

Gear 3 couldn't beat Doffy because it was too slow to hit him, a problem that likely wouldn't exist against the likes of Jozu or Jack.
lmao. again that slow argument

Yes, he is, he's showcased the power and tactical ability to compete against top level opponents and bounty doesn't equal commander level especially when those commanders had years longer to gain that bounty. You're so hung up on Cracker or Kata's bounty but Law got half way to Kata's bounty in a few years.
Its easy to get bounty till 300-500mil. After that u need to beat top players to get a raise. Its clear as luffy got a raise because he defeated 2 Yonko commanders n caused trouble in Cake island. BB another guy who has billions of bounty in 2years because he fought top lvl guys in that span.
Jinbei hasnt.

Show me where I said that, because and again, not being fast enough to dodge a faster opponent is not the same as not being fast. Luffy is fast but he's not fast enough to catch Kizaru, am I saying Luffy's not fast now?



Who said they were and how does that change that they were unable to cut his strings?



Doffy released it when Croc refused his offer and attacked. Jozu was never shown breaking out and to assume he did is baseless.



What does that have to do with no one else being shown to break them? Actually that just helps to show the strength of his strings that were able to pierce him which iirc Cracker's stab didn't.
You keep posting the same thing. Crocodile clearly said for a guy of that size he is fast. He intercepted Mihawks best slash Pre TS, stopped Aokiji from freezing WB(and these guys are top lvl guys) yet you keep saying he's slow??

Secondly what you are talking about is Bird Cage strings which are different than the strings he use in his clone.
his clones was made up of strings which were easily cut by Kyros and broken by Luffys g2 punches.

Thirdly Doffy never broke the bond between him n Jozu, neither did Crocodile helped Jozu. So Jozu breaking the bond like luffy is still a possibility.

Finally the form which he used against Crackers final hit was different than the one which he used against Doffy.

You could be right, I thought I remembered him breaking a shield with a G3 punch but I could be wrong.
Lol even when you know you are wrong you will still argue.

Yes, piercing does make it easier to go through something than blunt force. If you take the force and focus it to a single point it will travel with less resistance. It's easier to drive a nail in a board than it is to drive a square peg into a board.
Real life examples don't work in Mangaverse.

This doesn't negate physics. It means in that instance their defense was above the force against them. This isn't a valid counter point.
Howcome Jinbei's defence will be more than a Yonko's attacking power??? And BM knew very well she is fighting Jinbei n the attack was meant for him not for Nami or Chopper.


I'm not sure, but from what we've seen the indication for me is he can. Also Luffy is faster and probably stronger than Jack so that doesn't really mean anything. The Dukes as far as we know had to get in close which is something Doffy doesn't need to do.
Why you think Jack is slow in first place???
The guy destroyed 2/4 marines ships which got 2Admiral lvl guys.
The guy can take a beating from Dukes who got so many tricks like swordplay, electric gloves etc.
Minks are fast as seen Pedro cutting Kata's mochi.
For no reason you are downplaying Jack.
He didn't have any exceptional speed feats, he didn't blitz anyone who showed to be a top speed style fighter. He's shown top tier level speed but nothing to imply he has speed far greater than the rest of those in his grouping. Also isn't that the same reasoning you used earlier, that's what we saw when we saw it so that's the only way it'll ever be? I seem to recall you using that.
Okay i guess Attacking Akainu isn't consider a speed feat

That's still a G4 attack, Luffy was in G4 mode when he took him in and launched him. You're acting like his biscuits are the hardest things in the world because Luffy said his arm haki was the strongest he had felt yet. Those biscuits weren't colored like they were coated in haki like everything else is when he hit them so all we can assume is he hit his biscuits not hakified biscuits.
If they were not hard why will he tell Nami not to use Rain???

That's why they were called in to help against WB right?
Were they called to counter WBs commander???

You're helping prove my point, before the Shichibukai title barely anyone knew BB which proves that the Shichibukai title helped boost his hype around the world.
you still didn't get the point. If someone can simply go to marines saying i want to deal with you. Just give me a shichibukai rank n i give u Cracker then Marines will obviously take that offer. They know they getting a guy for free to do there bidding.
There are lots of guys who are famous n they not even Shuchibukai.
The legends n fame you talking about can be attained even if one is not a part of that Shuchibukai group. So that title doesn't hype anything.
Rather some of the people were famous before they become a Shichibukai like buggy n Law.

The 3 commanders had to deal with the Admirals until WB got involved, once he got involved and the Admirals focused on him that's when you started to see the commanders clash with the Shichibukai.
No Boa, kuma, Moria never clashed with Jozu, Marco or Vista. Only Mihawk clashed with Vista.


As I laid out numerous times already, he can keep the distance and whittle away at Jack's endurance with attacks like Bullet String, Overheat, Black Knight and his awakening.
Yea right. And Jack is way too slow to defend himself.
Wait Doffy's clone is enough i think. Fuk Doffy is Yonko lvl. he can beat Shanks with his strings. Shanks cant cut his strings.
We probably need God Ussop to stop Doffy.

Have you ever seen Urogue fly? Just giving people abilities you haven't even seen because it sounds right and helps your case?
How else do you think he can escape from that island if he didn't have flight ability?
The island is full of surveillance by those snails n the best way to escape is by flight.
 

chopstickchakra

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If he was a commander lvl guy then he would have been given the 2nd division commander after the fight.
He spent decent amount of time on WBs ship thats why BB knew very well how strong he was.
Have u ever thought if Jinbei was commander lvl WB pirates would have given that seat to him.
So your argument is flawed.
"Decent amount of time" You mean a year, two tops. You can make it bold if you want it doesn't change the math.

Jinbei wasn't a crew member he was an alliance captain like Squard. Your argument's flawed.

I showed u the scan n given examples of Hack yet u disagree.
Yes because A. Jinbei is stronger than Hack. and B. Barto's barriers as said in the manga are unbreakable so until proven otherwise Oda has proclaimed his barriers are unbreakable. So yes I disagree that that's a valid counter point.

lmao. again that slow argument
Yes because Doffy is still faster than those two characters and you've given nothing to disprove it.

Its easy to get bounty till 300-500mil. After that u need to beat top players to get a raise. Its clear as luffy got a raise because he defeated 2 Yonko commanders n caused trouble in Cake island. BB another guy who has billions of bounty in 2years because he fought top lvl guys in that span.
Jinbei hasnt.
And because he hasn't fought/beat any top players that we know of under WB or BM means he can't or won't under SH's? And you don't see the flaw in that reasoning? Jinbei's bounty went to $438 mil. just when he quit the Shichibukai, now he's joined with SH's and fought BM and what you think it won't go up more?

You keep posting the same thing. Crocodile clearly said for a guy of that size he is fast. He intercepted Mihawks best slash Pre TS, stopped Aokiji from freezing WB(and these guys are top lvl guys) yet you keep saying he's slow??
Why don't you show me this mythical quote where I said Jozu was slow. Comprehension goes a long way.

Secondly what you are talking about is Bird Cage strings which are different than the strings he use in his clone.
his clones was made up of strings which were easily cut by Kyros and broken by Luffys g2 punches.
I'm also talking about the strings from his fingers that clashed with swords and meteors. Nothing has said his strings are any different based on the attack not sure why Black Knight was beat by cuts but it did block Jet Pistol for the record.

From the wikia;
Black Knight (影騎糸(ブラックナイト), Burakku Naito , literally meaning "Shadow Knight String"): Doflamingo forms a clone of himself made entirely out of compressed strings. The technique was used to survive attempted decapitation, with remarking that she had never seen it before herself, suggesting that it is rarely used given her to see everything going on in Dressrosa. Doflamingo has shown great skill in manipulating his clone to orchestrate combined attacks with his real body, such as a double Goshikito or unravel it for use of Torikago.
Doflamingo has shown great skill in manipulating his clone to orchestrate combined attacks with his real body, such as a double Goshikito or unravel it for use of Torikago.

He unraveled his Black Knight to make Birdcage so it's the same strings.

Thirdly Doffy never broke the bond between him n Jozu, neither did Crocodile helped Jozu. So Jozu breaking the bond like luffy is still a possibility.
The difference being we saw Luffy break the strings and you're assuming Jozu did. Also Croc did help Jozu, even if it was unintentional.

Finally the form which he used against Crackers final hit was different than the one which he used against Doffy.
Yes, it is. And that means what to the discussion?

Lol even when you know you are wrong you will still argue.
I don't think you know what an argument is.

Real life examples don't work in Mangaverse.
I'll take "replies given when reason defeats your point" for $100 Alex

How come Jinbei's defence will be more than a Yonko's attacking power??? And BM knew very well she is fighting Jinbei n the attack was meant for him not for Nami or Chopper.
It won't always but in the instance you're referring to she was being weakened by her hunger and he used haki against her non haki attack. You brought up Luffy and Jinbei being pierced to disprove piercing works better than blunt force, why are you trying to change it to Jinbei's defense vs BM's offense now? You just can't help but get off topic can you? Stick to piercing being more effective than punching.

Also to the whole biscuit destroying topic, since you were so wrapped up in the piercing aspect I blanked on the cutting aspect, Doffy wouldn't have to pierce the biscuits he can also cut them. Gonna try to argue breaking something with a punch is as easy or easier than cutting it too?

Why you think Jack is slow in first place???
Because of his size and style of fighting.

The guy destroyed 2/4 marines ships which got 2Admiral lvl guys.
The guy can take a beating from Dukes who got so many tricks like swordplay, electric gloves etc.
How does that showcase his speed?

Minks are fast as seen Pedro cutting Kata's mochi.
For no reason you are downplaying Jack.
When you're a strength fighter you don't need to be fast to beat a speed fighter. Anyone's downplaying anyone it's you on Jinbei comparing his strength to Hack.

Okay i guess Attacking Akainu isn't consider a speed feat
A single attack, on a character not really noted for speed like Kizaru for instance, no not really I don't see how or why it would be. It's not like he kept up in battle against him and again Akainu has never been noted for speed he has typical top tier speed.

If they were not hard why will he tell Nami not to use Rain???
Jesus Christ you can't actually have that hard of a time comprehending the things written here can you? I didn't say they weren't hard but they're not the hardest thing around either. He hit 3-4 Biscuits, Doffy took dozens of G4 hits including a King Kong Gun, which do you honestly think has more impact, the biscuit collision or all of those punches?

Were they called to counter WBs commander???
Yes do I really need to tell you that? Do you need me to break it out? 3 Admirals - Yonko / Shichibukai - Commanders / Pacifista&VA's - Allied crews / Marine grunts - Pirate grunts / FA&Garp - Worst case scenario(which turned out to be Luffy)

you still didn't get the point. If someone can simply go to marines saying i want to deal with you. Just give me a shichibukai rank n i give u Cracker then Marines will obviously take that offer.
Yeah because you'd be defeating and giving them a big name pirate, wtf do you not see this? If they could give the WG Cracker and get the Shichibukai title THEN THEY'RE COMMANDER LEVEL. The ****?

They know they getting a guy for free to do there bidding.
There are lots of guys who are famous n they not even Shuchibukai.
The legends n fame you talking about can be attained even if one is not a part of that Shuchibukai group. So that title doesn't hype anything.
Rather some of the people were famous before they become a Shichibukai like buggy n Law.
Because they're not strong enough to contend which is why the ones who do become Shichibukai should be recognized as strong. The title hypes up the holders strength to the world, other pirates msy view them bad for working with WG but they know they're strong.

No Boa, kuma, Moria never clashed with Jozu, Marco or Vista. Only Mihawk clashed with Vista.
No what? I never said those particular Shichibukai fought them I said we started to see the Shichibukai engage them. Croc and Doffy also engaged Jozu.

Yea right. And Jack is way too slow to defend himself.
Wait Doffy's clone is enough i think. Fuk Doffy is Yonko lvl. he can beat Shanks with his strings. Shanks cant cut his strings.
We probably need God Ussop
Against an opponent with more maneuverability, speed and range, seems likely. I didn't realize Jack was such a monster that he could beat Roger with one hand WB with the other and Akainu with his trunk though, my mistake. See we can both be patronizing.

How else do you think he can escape from that island if he didn't have flight ability?
The island is full of surveillance by those snails n the best way to escape is by flight.
So the only way he could have done it is the way you feel would be best?
 
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Skull Knight

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"Decent amount of time" You mean a year, two tops. You can make it bold if you want it doesn't change the math.

Jinbei wasn't a crew member he was an alliance captain like Squard. Your argument's flawed.
Just stop it. U know very well Ace was a rookie when he fought Jinbei. He was on WBs for a year or so n yet u keep saying he was a commander lvl.
In a year or so Ace was travelling, fighting WBs allies n even venturing to Kaido's territory.
He was given 2nd commander seat after some time.
Jinbei cant even beat that Rookie Ace as after that fight Ace standup n fought WB whereas Jinbei was ko'd.

Yes because A. Jinbei is stronger than Hack. and B. Barto's barriers as said in the manga are unbreakable so until proven otherwise Oda has proclaimed his barriers are unbreakable. So yes I disagree that that's a valid counter point.
You are basically arguing for argument sake.
FMK has no effects on Katakuri and to strong defence charaters.
The whole manipulating water doesn't help Hack when he attacked Barto.
Similarly it didn't helped Jinbei stopping Katakuri.
At best it pushed Mama off the ship which G3 can also do.
But then again u think G3 is enough to beat Yonko commander so what to say.

And because he hasn't fought/beat any top players that we know of under WB or BM means he can't or won't under SH's? And you don't see the flaw in that reasoning? Jinbei's bounty went to $438 mil. just when he quit the Shichibukai, now he's joined with SH's and fought BM and what you think it won't go up more?
his bounty was recently increased to 438mil. That's after BM incident. So even after that incident it didn't reached closer to Ace's bounty.

Why don't you show me this mythical quote where I said Jozu was slow. Comprehension goes a long way.
So you agree he isn't slow???

I'm also talking about the strings from his fingers that clashed with swords and meteors. Nothing has said his strings are any different based on the attack not sure why Black Knight was beat by cuts but it did block Jet Pistol for the record.

From the wikia;
Black Knight (影騎糸(ブラックナイト), Burakku Naito , literally meaning "Shadow Knight String"): Doflamingo forms a clone of himself made entirely out of compressed strings. The technique was used to survive attempted decapitation, with remarking that she had never seen it before herself, suggesting that it is rarely used given her to see everything going on in Dressrosa. Doflamingo has shown great skill in manipulating his clone to orchestrate combined attacks with his real body, such as a double Goshikito or unravel it for use of Torikago.
Doflamingo has shown great skill in manipulating his clone to orchestrate combined attacks with his real body, such as a double Goshikito or unravel it for use of Torikago.

He unraveled his Black Knight to make Birdcage so it's the same strings.



The difference being we saw Luffy break the strings and you're assuming Jozu did. Also Croc did help Jozu, even if it was unintentional.
BC strings and his clone strings are obviously different otherwise its a plot hole or inconsistency.
Even Parasyte strings is different than his awakening as one cant see Parasyte but can see his awakening strings. So he uses a combination of different strings.
Yes, it is. And that means what to the discussion?
That means you cant compare those 2 scenarios.

I don't think you know what an argument is.
And you don't know when to stop. Even when you are wrong you are adamant that maybe G3 broke those biscuits or using G3 is enough to pin a commander down who is apparently slow.

I'll take "replies given when reason defeats your point" for $100 Alex
yea right. real life logic works very well in Opverse that's why Magma defeated Fire.

It won't always but in the instance you're referring to she was being weakened by her hunger and he used haki against her non haki attack. You brought up Luffy and Jinbei being pierced to disprove piercing works better than blunt force, why are you trying to change it to Jinbei's defense vs BM's offense now? You just can't help but get off topic can you? Stick to piercing being more effective than punching.
You are the one who brought the logic piercing is effective when its not.
Cracker used his sword who according to luffy had a stronger armament haki n it was ineffective.

Also to the whole biscuit destroying topic, since you were so wrapped up in the piercing aspect I blanked on the cutting aspect, Doffy wouldn't have to pierce the biscuits he can also cut them. Gonna try to argue breaking something with a punch is as easy or easier than cutting it too?
so you gonna use more real life logic here i guess.

Because of his size and style of fighting.



How does that showcase his speed?



When you're a strength fighter you don't need to be fast to beat a speed fighter. Anyone's downplaying anyone it's you on Jinbei comparing his strength to Hack.
Wow you finally said it U don't need to be fast to beat a speedy guy.

Yes because Doffy is still faster than those two characters and you've given nothing to disprove it.
And he lost to Luffy. Speed doesn't guarantee victory. If that was the case Hakuba would be one of the strongest guys in OP. Or do u think Hakuba can also beat Jack, Jozu n Cracker???

A single attack, on a character not really noted for speed like Kizaru for instance, no not really I don't see how or why it would be. It's not like he kept up in battle against him and again Akainu has never been noted for speed he has typical top tier speed.
Seriously now Akainu is also not fast.
Even Kizaru was sent flying by Marco's kick. But i guess you will say Marco is also slow as Garp easily intercepted him.
Jesus Christ you can't actually have that hard of a time comprehending the things written here can you? I didn't say they weren't hard but they're not the hardest thing around either. He hit 3-4 Biscuits, Doffy took dozens of G4 hits including a King Kong Gun, which do you honestly think has more impact, the biscuit collision or all of those punches?
and it took kong gun to destroy those biscuits. go read the chapter again. You can clearly see Cracker was ko'd after he got hit by his own biscuits. so its ridiculous to say those biscuits aren't hard as it needs G4 punches not G3 to break them when they are not soggy.

Yes do I really need to tell you that? Do you need me to break it out? 3 Admirals - Yonko / Shichibukai - Commanders / Pacifista&VA's - Allied crews / Marine grunts - Pirate grunts / FA&Garp - Worst case scenario(which turned out to be Luffy)
So now Shichibukais are in same tier as Yonkos.
Yea the way u r boasting Doffy i guess very soon u will claim he is Yonko lvl.


Because they're not strong enough to contend which is why the ones who do become Shichibukai should be recognized as strong. The title hypes up the holders strength to the world, other pirates msy view them bad for working with WG but they know they're strong.
Howcome they are strong when characters like law couldn't beat Doffy???
Buggy isn't a VA lvl guy yet u claim all of them are strong as commander lvl.

No what? I never said those particular Shichibukai fought them I said we started to see the Shichibukai engage them. Croc and Doffy also engaged Jozu.
Crocodile was never summoned by Marines. And it was Jozu who fought n kicked his a**.
As i said Moria, Boa n Pacifistas never fought with any commanders.
Mihawk had small skirmish with Vista that too when Vista stopped Mihawk on his own terms. Most of the commanders were engaged by Admirals.
lets see who fought whom at MF:
Marco was fighting akainu, Kizaru, Garp, Aokiji
Jozu- Aokiji, Croco, Doffy
Vista- Akainu, Mihawk
That's only 2Shichibukai who fought or got engaged with a Yonko Commander. Rest were busy with fodders.

Against an opponent with more maneuverability, speed and range, seems likely. I didn't realize Jack was such a monster that he could beat Roger with one hand WB with the other and Akainu with his trunk though, my mistake. See we can both be patronizing.
Did i ever claim he can fight with them. Did i ever boast his one hand or trunk strength??? On the other hand u are blindly patronising Doffy's speed feat.
So the only way he could have done it is the way you feel would be best?
How else could he escape genius.
He obviously doesn't have a magical door in his pocket which he can summon n travel to a sky island.

We already say Skypieans fly with dials n stuff n still u think he wont have one of those things.
 

Dęvîa Puęrî

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Didn't Cracker beat Urogue who is a skypiean.
Skypieans use dials to fly so if he can beat a guy like that what makes your think he cant beat Doffy.
With flight Doffy can only maintain distance from Cracker. Who knows Cracker has long slash attacks to counter that after all he is a swordsman.
No with flight he negates crackers way to hit him with his awakening he can attack cracker from any angle. Not to mention doffy is just as much as tank as luffy if not more

Not to mention intellect cracker is stupid as shit considering he didn't just take nami out and had her pour water on his crackers for 11 hours straight

Lastly we haven't seen cracker do damage out put considerable to gamma knife + kong gun + king kong gun

Cracker wasn't that impressive he's only strong against someone who's a one dimensional fighter or has no way of avoiding (flight speed etc) biscuits..

Since dressrosa doflamingk might have been the shortest fight (out of dog tooth himself and cracker)

However in terms of damage needed to put down he out classes the other two.. Who honestly didn't need that much damage to put down if you really think about it. Cracker a glass cannon dog tooth took way less damage then luffy..
 

Skull Knight

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No with flight he negates crackers way to hit him with his awakening he can attack cracker from any angle. Not to mention doffy is just as much as tank as luffy if not
If he has long slash attacks then flight doesn't help much.
Luffy himself said Crackers armament was stronger than any of his previous opponents. So the question is can Doffy break his biscuits??? Or pierce him???

Not to mention intellect cracker is stupid as shit considering he didn't just take nami out and had her pour water on his crackers for 11 hours
Seriously its like saying why didn't Doffy went for Luffy when he ran out of juice?
Why he kept wasting time on Rebecca n Viola?
Why didn't Doffy himself went to colosseum to kill Luffy?
Its because of plot. It has nothing to do with Intelligence.

Lastly we haven't seen cracker do damage out put considerable to gamma knife + kong gun + king kong gun

Cracker wasn't that impressive he's only strong against someone who's a one dimensional fighter or has no way of avoiding (flight speed etc) biscuits..

Since dressrosa doflamingk might have been the shortest fight (out of dog tooth himself and cracker)

However in terms of damage needed to put down he out classes the other two.. Who honestly didn't need that much damage to put down if you really think about it. Cracker a glass cannon dog tooth took way less damage then luffy..
Cracker fought 11some hours. U seriously think Luffy didn't used those attacks on Cracker???
he used Kong Gun to break his biscuits.
We don't even know how many times he evaded Luffys G4.
We should also not forget Luffy also has flight but it didn't help him.
Lastly luffy used a different form n rather than punching his way n beating his opponent(Cracker), he used a different method where he sent him flying towards his own hardened biscuits to Ko him.
 

Dęvîa Puęrî

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If he has long slash attacks then flight doesn't help much.
Luffy himself said Crackers armament was stronger than any of his previous opponents. So the question is can Doffy break his biscuits??? Or pierce him???


Seriously its like saying why didn't Doffy went for Luffy when he ran out of juice?
Why he kept wasting time on Rebecca n Viola?
Why didn't Doffy himself went to colosseum to kill Luffy?
Its because of plot. It has nothing to do with Intelligence.


Cracker fought 11some hours. U seriously think Luffy didn't used those attacks on Cracker???
he used Kong Gun to break his biscuits.
We don't even know how many times he evaded Luffys G4.
We should also not forget Luffy also has flight but it didn't help him.
Lastly luffy used a different form n rather than punching his way n beating his opponent(Cracker), he used a different method where he sent him flying towards his own hardened biscuits to Ko him.
Luffy doesn't have flight he has bounce that's it

Doffy has complete mobility in the area

Also your first sentence started with If as in it didnt happen in the manga and yes he didn't use the attacks on doffy when he fought doffy minus two kong guns one to break a biscut solider and the other to knock out cracker

What does plot have to do with a fictional battle that between to chars who havrnt met in the series.

Also logic from the story shows cracker does not have the tools to actually put doffy down let alone knock him out of the sky with his imaginary "flying slashes" -.-

As for why didn't he run at luffy when he ran out of juice reread law switched him via shambles to unknown area doffy was then bombarded by 100s of citizens and viola

Speaking of running out of juice that's another thing you guys are not getting what damage output has cracker shown to be comparable to a gamma knife + kong gun + king kong gun???

doffy has awakening flight parasite regular strings clones and bird cage which would rek cracker if he manipulates the strings into the crackers while staying in the sky. Strings that even zoro cabbage barto and even an admiral couldn't break

Hell 1000's of well known fights plus the entire country couldn't keep it from shrinking im sorry but until you somehow probe that cracker can knock doffy out of the sky he's just a sitting duck for everything doffy has in his arsenal


Now haki wise id def give it to cracker (i even say crackers haki is stronger then dog tooth ardemabt because of lufffys statement towards cracker. He also didn't bother changing it when meeting dog tooth)
 

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Just stop it. U know very well Ace was a rookie when he fought Jinbei. He was on WBs for a year or so n yet u keep saying he was a commander lvl.
In a year or so Ace was travelling, fighting WBs allies n even venturing to Kaido's territory.
He was given 2nd commander seat after some time.
Jinbei cant even beat that Rookie Ace as after that fight Ace standup n fought WB whereas Jinbei was ko'd.
Ace was halfway into his career when he fought Jinbei. I don't know why you're having such a hard time with the math. Even if Ace spent a year on WB's ship before becoming commander that's only a years growth which Jinbei also grew during. The Ace Jinbei fought was commander level because he wasn't there much longer before being made a commander.

You are basically arguing for argument sake.
FMK has no effects on Katakuri and to strong defence charaters.
The whole manipulating water doesn't help Hack when he attacked Barto.
Similarly it didn't helped Jinbei stopping Katakuri.
At best it pushed Mama off the ship which G3 can also do.
But then again u think G3 is enough to beat Yonko commander so what to say.
I'm arguing because you're using shit examples and liking a Shichibukai to random mid tier people to try and downplay him to help prove a point you've given nothing substantial to back. You use 1st commanders as examples of why things won't work against 3rd commanders who are clearly below 1st commanders.

his bounty was recently increased to 438mil. That's after BM incident. So even after that incident it didn't reached closer to Ace's bounty.
I thought the Databook came out before WCI ended, never mind.

So you agree he isn't slow???
I never said he was slow you fucking dolt, that's what I've been trying to tell you for the last 4-5 posts. He has a comparable speed to the rest of the top tiers which is fast but there are still people in said tiers faster than him. What about that can you not get. Would you be having as hard a time with this notion if I had said Mihawk is too fast for Jozu?

BC strings and his clone strings are obviously different otherwise its a plot hole or inconsistency.
Take that up with Oda, Doffy unraveled a Black Knight to make Birdcage, that's a fact.

Even Parasyte strings is different than his awakening as one cant see Parasyte but can see his awakening strings. So he uses a combination of different strings.
Awakening is a completely different beast and are you comparing being able to see a single thread to seeing an entire building turned to strings? The **** is wrong with your head?

That means you cant compare those 2 scenarios.
Yes you can, oh wait I forgot you can't compare things that aren't exactly the same.

And you don't know when to stop. Even when you are wrong you are adamant that maybe G3 broke those biscuits or using G3 is enough to pin a commander down who is apparently slow.
You don't know what adamant is or when to use it properly, you should stop. Saying things like maybe and I think and iirc aren't adamant, stating something improvable as a fact like Urouge flies is adamant.

yea right. real life logic works very well in Opverse that's why Magma defeated Fire.
Is there real life logic that says it wouldn't? Was it purely elemental and not Haki related? The real life reasoning behind it is lava being molten rock would be able to envelop the fire and cut off the oxygen to the fire. Yay logic.

You are the one who brought the logic piercing is effective when its not.
Cracker used his sword who according to luffy had a stronger armament haki n it was ineffective.
How do you not see the points you keep bringing up actually go against your argument? If Cracker has stronger haki than Doffy but couldn't pierce G4 Luffy while Doffy could then what does that mean? Hmm? Stronger haki isn't all you need, stronger attack force is needed as well and all this does is shows that Doffy despite having weaker haki has greater impact force than Cracker.

so you gonna use more real life logic here i guess.
It's ALL logic you twit, show me any fictional world that doesn't hold cutting easier than breaking with blunt force. foh clown.

Wow you finally said it U don't need to be fast to beat a speedy guy.
You don't look at Joe Frasier vs Ali, power vs speed. Since you don't like real world examples that prove you wrong, how about comics where Hulk beats speedsters all the time. Still not good enough for you, how about how Robin caught Hakuba?

And he lost to Luffy. Speed doesn't guarantee victory. If that was the case Hakuba would be one of the strongest guys in OP. Or do u think Hakuba can also beat Jack, Jozu n Cracker???
Doffy wasn't faster than G4 Luffy which is what he lost to so what's your point? You act like I said Doffy ONLY has speed, I said his speed advantage is what would give him the edge, he still has strength way greater than Hakuba. Hakuba also doesn't have the ranged attacks Doffy does which helps against a tank style fighter.

Seriously now Akainu is also not fast.
Even Kizaru was sent flying by Marco's kick. But i guess you will say Marco is also slow as Garp easily intercepted him.
You don't seem to understand how to differentiate being within the stats of your peers and being a reputable speedy character. At that level ALL of them are fast in the general sense but that doesn't mean some aren't faster than others within that grouping. Doffy is faster than Jack based on everything we've seen and him being able to catch Jozu also implies he's faster than him as well.

Being sent flying by a kick isn't a speed feat that's a power feat. Intercepting someone who moves through light is a speed feat. I don't think you know how to use examples to prove your point because most of your examples are contrary to your points.

and it took kong gun to destroy those biscuits. go read the chapter again. You can clearly see Cracker was ko'd after he got hit by his own biscuits. so its ridiculous to say those biscuits aren't hard as it needs G4 punches not G3 to break them when they are not soggy.
Man your comprehension really is shit, show me where I said they weren't hard. Doffy took more than 3-4 Kong guns is still the point.

So now Shichibukais are in same tier as Yonkos.
Yea the way u r boasting Doffy i guess very soon u will claim he is Yonko lvl.
Wow, just wow. Here I'll make it simple for you since that was apparently too much.
3 Admirals - Yonko
Shichibukai - Commanders
Pacifista&VA's - Allied crews
Marine grunts - Pirate grunts
FA&Garp - Worst case scenario(which turned out to be Luffy)

See it now? I never had Shichibukai on Yonkou tier.

Howcome they are strong when characters like law couldn't beat Doffy???
Buggy isn't a VA lvl guy yet u claim all of them are strong as commander lvl.
What does Law not being able to beat Doffy prove when both are Shichibukai and both commander level? How come Shichibukai are strong, what kind of question is that?

Crocodile was never summoned by Marines. And it was Jozu who fought n kicked his a**.
As i said Moria, Boa n Pacifistas never fought with any commanders.
Mihawk had small skirmish with Vista that too when Vista stopped Mihawk on his own terms. Most of the commanders were engaged by Admirals.
lets see who fought whom at MF:
Marco was fighting akainu, Kizaru, Garp, Aokiji
Jozu- Aokiji, Croco, Doffy
Vista- Akainu, Mihawk
That's only 2Shichibukai who fought or got engaged with a Yonko Commander. Rest were busy with fodders.
And? Is this not Shichibukai fighting with Commanders?

Did i ever claim he can fight with them. Did i ever boast his one hand or trunk strength??? On the other hand u are blindly patronising Doffy's speed feat.
You don't know what patronizing is do you? Talking good about someones ability isn't patronizing. Don't try to reuse words just because I did.

How else could he escape genius.
He obviously doesn't have a magical door in his pocket which he can summon n travel to a sky island.
The SH's didn't escape by flying away either genius.

We already say Skypieans fly with dials n stuff n still u think he wont have one of those things.
Urouge's not a confirmed Skypiean, I'll wait for you to find proof that he is, he's from an unnamed sky island and as we saw in Weatheria where Nami went they don't all have wings or fly.

I'm done with this. You're just making me repeat myself or diverging off the point onto other issues like Urouge and him escaping or Jinbei vs BM who isn't a commander so has no real relevance in this you get the point...or maybe you don't.[/quote][/quote]
 
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Skull Knight

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Luffy doesn't have flight he has bounce that's

Doffy has complete mobility in the area
And with that Luffy can take aerial route n can attack whenever he wants.
That bounce thing is similar to flight.


Also your first sentence started with If as in it didnt happen in the manga and yes he didn't use the attacks on doffy when he fought doffy minus two kong guns one to break a biscut solider and the other to knock out cracker
2kong guns



Barrage of Kong organ guns

not counting any G2 or G3 attacks mind it.
Lets also not forget that the fight continues for 11some hours.
We don't even know how many times Cracker evaded Luffys G4.
We should also not forget that at the end of the Dressrosa Luffy said If kong gun is not working then i will use something different i.e KKG. So that's also a possibility that he might have tried that also in that 11hr fight.
So if u call Doffy a tank since he took
1 kong gun
1 rhino schieder
1 Cavalry canon
1 leo bazuka
1 KKG
That's it Doffy only took 5hits from G4 before he went down while Cracker took 6hits from G4 Kong organ alone(barrage of punches), 2 kong gun n one hit from his final form.
So Cracker took more hits than Doffy.

Also logic from the story shows cracker does not have the tools to actually put doffy down let alone knock him out of the sky with his imaginary "flying slashes" -.-

As for why didn't he run at luffy when he ran out of juice reread law switched him via shambles to unknown area doffy was then bombarded by 100s of citizens
Luffy was infront of him.
Gatz pick him n ran away
Doffy had Conqueror Haki to ko fodders n that's before Law shambles him.
See its similar to your Nami point.
Speaking of running out of juice that's another thing you guys are not getting what damage output has cracker shown to be comparable to a gamma knife + kong gun + king kong gun???

doffy has awakening flight parasite regular strings clones and bird cage which would rek cracker if he manipulates the strings into the crackers while staying in the sky. Strings that even zoro cabbage barto and even an admiral couldn't break

Hell 1000's of well known fights plus the entire country couldn't keep it from shrinking im sorry but until you somehow probe that cracker can knock doffy out of the sky he's just a sitting duck for everything doffy has
Cracker pushed Luffy to his limits. if i m not wrong he even said a statement like fighting one of his biscuit is like fighting a strong guy(something of that sort).
He had shit tonne of stamina n as i showed above he took more punishment than Doffy.
Unlike Luffy, Doffy also doesn't have the advantage of Rain. So cracker doesn't even have to worry about soggy biscuits.
Now the point of flight. Luffy himself can go aerial route n keep his distance from Cracker but i expect a Yonko commander probably have mid- long range attacks.
Doffy uses BC n then what run away???
In crackers case he doesn't have any limitations(G4 time limit) n he can create infinite no. of biscuits to stop BC.
Lets also not forget Cracker was able to cut G4 luffy(Boundman).
So in close quarter he can cut Doffy easily.

Ace was halfway into his career when he fought Jinbei. I don't know why you're having such a hard time with the math. Even if Ace spent a year on WB's ship before becoming commander that's only a years growth which Jinbei also grew during. The Ace Jinbei fought was commander level because he wasn't there much longer before being made a commander.
Bruh if someone was part of a crew for a year u think he wont grow???
I guess Luffy didn't grow from Fishman Island to Wano arc???
Ace was still fighting with others after he joined WBs crew. He kept travelling before he become a 2nd commander. Whats so hard to understand that Ace wasnt a commander when that fight broke out?
its even funny that Jinbei lost to Ace when he had an element advantage over him n he was close to the sea.

I'm arguing because you're using shit examples and liking a Shichibukai to random mid tier people to try and downplay him to help prove a point you've given nothing substantial to back. You use 1st commanders as examples of why things won't work against 3rd commanders who are clearly below 1st commanders.
So u want to say the whole water manipulation doesn't work on 1st commanders but will effect 3rd Commanders???
Even tho it only showed G3 sort of damage so far but then again who i m arguing with. U think G3 hits can take down a commander.

I thought the Databook came out before WCI ended, never mind.
It came out in September this year if i m not wrong.

Good thing u kept rest of the things in your own quote since u are like a broken record saying the same thing again after again.
Its even funny u wrote the worst case scenario for WG was Luffy n for that they appointed Garp n Sengoku :lmao:
 
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