[VS] Beansandcornbread VS Draegod!
- Thread starter TheAncientCenturion
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Funky Tiger
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kakashi owns all
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First i want to let you guys know how lucky you are to have a boss like this guy. He is literally one of the best ever, along with a few others (that are not longer active for the most part).
Take your time man, i think you should pick the team (See who you can get), the fight made me sad btw ( i just got back from it)
I wont be judging as i have a rather strong bias in this debate, and dont want that to cloud my judgement (or cause argument after it).
I like everyone you listed.
Uzimaki and Negative are the only ones that are still active (from what i see)
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kakashi owns all
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tell him how floydical is judging ? Its kinda like a last judgment for old time sakes lol
kakashi owns all
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Ya man, i have not been active really for about 2 years. These kids got lots of spunk! Regardless i cant say i know who the better part of 1/2 of them are.Glad to see some familiar faces. Saw a few others on this thread I recognize, but for the most part I'm dated by 2 years when it comes to the debates. 0_o
Question to the thread creator. From my count, Dragod managed 4 posts when Beans only had 3. In a situation like that, I don't even count the 4th post as its an obvious advantage. That's what I plan to do here. Side note, 4 posts each is very standard in a nicely sized debate, but you have to drastically limit post lengths. This evens the playing field and forces the users to concentrate their posts more precisely.
The agreement was 4 is what he wanted originally. But 3 is fine, they don't go by how we debated like in the past.
I'm not quite done but I should have my judging up by tomorrow evening. On a side note, I messaged Uzumaki and Owarij that I mentioned from my list (as they seem active enough to check their mail) and asked if they'd be interested in judging. I feel every debate needs 3 judges, and I'd agree the judges need to be picked before a debate begins just to save people headaches .
.Draegod and I already agreed on KIFFLOM and paratise on judges but Kiff says that it might be a while before he can post a judgment and paratise/caterpillar hasn't responded to me. Floydical if you can find judges who can post a verdict relatively soon then that would be even better.
Analysis of the debaters' first 3 posts each (mostly for the debaters themselves):
Summary:
In general, I disagreed with both of the debaters on a variety of occasions.
I felt that both of you did very well to establish a strategy and incorporate your own advantages. I felt Drae made some pretty heavy assumptions from the go and Beans crushed them quite confidently. But once Drae greatly started utilizing summons and Beans largely obliged, it became an uphill battle for Beans. The fact that Drae was able to combine a series of assaults that had potential to restrict and kill Kisame was very important to me. Yet, Beans eventually bolstering his CQC made me rethink Oro's ability to actually kill him, which was equally important.
Generally I felt I agreed with Beans more-so when it came to raw arguments, but I felt Draegod had more battle tactics. Beans clearly changed his CQC tactics during the debate multiple times. Beans also changed his stance on the small snakes ability to swim underwater. Beans went with the mass summons scenario yet claimed at the end of the debate that Oro did not have the chakra to summon them all. All these facts prove inconsistency.
Did I believe Kisame could kill Oro? Yes, but only in a non-hydra form which would require Kisame's Giant Shark missile to work just as Beans suggested it might (ie not certain to happen). Did I believe Oro could kill Kisame? Unlikely in CQC, but certainly by combining his summons, which Beans generally seemed to accept. Drae's relentless strategy, more consistent debating, and generally superior proof of creating a death scenario eventually put him ahead for me. I vote for Draegod.
Suggestion for both? Don't wait till the end of your post to suddenly drop in new strategies to progress the battle. Do that earlier and avoid re-defending the same points over and over, this simply adds clutter to the debate that yields no profit for you in my eyes. Beans final counter strategies I felt were too little too late.
@Draegod
I have to say that your battle setup at the start is mere conjecture at best. By that I mean I can't confirm Oro can create 4 perfect (non shadow clone) Zetsu copies, but I can't say its an impossibility either. Your counter regarding snakes swimming in water is sound, you used it well. I like your 10,000 snakes vs. 1000 sharks idea. I would agree that Kisame has to channel his giant shark missile attack, making him vulnerable while using it, well analyzed. I found your analysis of Oro countering Kisame's chakra absorption to also be sound.
@beansandcornbread2
You did well to make your starting abilities seem more competitive than Drae gave them credit for. Your statements regarding the Zetsu clones Drae brought up align perfectly with my concerns. I generally agree that Oro's summoned shield would be mostly useless in a water environment. To put it bluntly, I don't agree that Kisame would have it so easy against the summons. I think you made valid points, but I think you could have also denied that they all would have likely made it to the field in the first place. Still, you did handle the situation well overall.
I am not convinced the snakes' movement in water would be restricted and wouldn't overwhelm Kisame, nor am I convinced the small snakes wouldn't be capable of the same. I think you did good to defend the possibility that Kisame's giant shark missile could actually consume Oro's Hydra technique. Saying Kisame stomps Oro in close combat is bold considering Drae used the option of numbing him with poison. You proceed to state he wouldn't engage him in CQC later on for that reason, despite defending it before. Be careful not to shoot yourself in the foot whenever possible.
@Draegod
To put it bluntly, I'm not even sure if Oro's AOE wind ability is even canon in part two, it seems to have been removed (or far, far outclassed to the point of uselessness). I generally disagree that V2 Bee is faster than a fused Kisame. Kisame was most likely just playing with him in order to drain his chakra (ie not kill him). Generally I'd agree with your statements regarding the summons overpowering Kisame. I agree that given the possible scenario and ensuing chaos, I feel Hydra Oro does have a good chance of catching a speedy Kisame. Yet I think you overestimate Hydra's durability.
@beansandcornbread2
I think you made a fine point regarding how clumped together the 10,000 snakes might be. Again your concerns regarding the strength of Oro's Zetsu clones align with my thinking. I do not agree that Kisame's water clones get their own Samehada. I generally agree Kisame has great speed feats, but given the scenario, I think its more possible he might get caught than you give it credit. I believe that your evidence regarding the size of the summons compared to the water dome is sound. You were successful in stressing Kisame's great durability and healing. Combining that with his reflexes, you made me believe Oro might find it hard to actually kill Kisame even if Manda or another summon catches him.
@Draegod
I don't agree that a 30% Kisame is equally capable as a 100% Kisame when it come to the scale of his water tech. On the topic of Oro transforming, I'm unwilling to accept the possibility that Zetsu-Oro could transform into a fused Kisame-Samehada. Regarding the Zetsu-Oro clones, I put the burden on you to prove such a feat. The point about Zetsu redistributing chakra is quite important and I feel it might indeed save Oro in a sticky situation. I'm glad you started another scenario for the battle, I liked the combined transformations. The snakes transforming into sharks seemed like a stretch, but perhaps if a lot of them do a combination transformation (as you suggested) it might be possible.
@beansandcornbread2
I agree that we can't be certain Hydra can release snakes from all its mouths like Oro can. I can't really agree nor disagree with how much of a boost Oro would actually get from hosting a Zetsu body. Generally speaking I liked the idea of gouging out the snakes eyes, but I did not find it too convincing as you already proposed he'd suck out their chakra if he got in CQC. You did not propose his clones would manage the same feat, making me believe you were only defending the original Kisame being capable of doing this.
I think you did good to bolster your defense of Kisame's CQC, but underestimated the potential of summons becoming involved. However, I found the counter against Oro decapitating a fused Kisame quite valid and also found the claim of Oro's teeth not piercing his Samehada infused body to also be valid.
This area of the debate relied heavily on who's scenario of the snakes' potential in water I found more likely. If the snakes do have much greater potential in water, than how likely is Oro to get the battle to such a scale if his Zetsu clones are not capable of the same summoning feats the original Oro is? If they don't share his feats, how much does the 35m starting distance matter in the situation?
I have to say that your battle setup at the start is mere conjecture at best. By that I mean I can't confirm Oro can create 4 perfect (non shadow clone) Zetsu copies, but I can't say its an impossibility either. Your counter regarding snakes swimming in water is sound, you used it well. I like your 10,000 snakes vs. 1000 sharks idea. I would agree that Kisame has to channel his giant shark missile attack, making him vulnerable while using it, well analyzed. I found your analysis of Oro countering Kisame's chakra absorption to also be sound.
@beansandcornbread2
You did well to make your starting abilities seem more competitive than Drae gave them credit for. Your statements regarding the Zetsu clones Drae brought up align perfectly with my concerns. I generally agree that Oro's summoned shield would be mostly useless in a water environment. To put it bluntly, I don't agree that Kisame would have it so easy against the summons. I think you made valid points, but I think you could have also denied that they all would have likely made it to the field in the first place. Still, you did handle the situation well overall.
I am not convinced the snakes' movement in water would be restricted and wouldn't overwhelm Kisame, nor am I convinced the small snakes wouldn't be capable of the same. I think you did good to defend the possibility that Kisame's giant shark missile could actually consume Oro's Hydra technique. Saying Kisame stomps Oro in close combat is bold considering Drae used the option of numbing him with poison. You proceed to state he wouldn't engage him in CQC later on for that reason, despite defending it before. Be careful not to shoot yourself in the foot whenever possible.
@Draegod
To put it bluntly, I'm not even sure if Oro's AOE wind ability is even canon in part two, it seems to have been removed (or far, far outclassed to the point of uselessness). I generally disagree that V2 Bee is faster than a fused Kisame. Kisame was most likely just playing with him in order to drain his chakra (ie not kill him). Generally I'd agree with your statements regarding the summons overpowering Kisame. I agree that given the possible scenario and ensuing chaos, I feel Hydra Oro does have a good chance of catching a speedy Kisame. Yet I think you overestimate Hydra's durability.
@beansandcornbread2
I think you made a fine point regarding how clumped together the 10,000 snakes might be. Again your concerns regarding the strength of Oro's Zetsu clones align with my thinking. I do not agree that Kisame's water clones get their own Samehada. I generally agree Kisame has great speed feats, but given the scenario, I think its more possible he might get caught than you give it credit. I believe that your evidence regarding the size of the summons compared to the water dome is sound. You were successful in stressing Kisame's great durability and healing. Combining that with his reflexes, you made me believe Oro might find it hard to actually kill Kisame even if Manda or another summon catches him.
@Draegod
I don't agree that a 30% Kisame is equally capable as a 100% Kisame when it come to the scale of his water tech. On the topic of Oro transforming, I'm unwilling to accept the possibility that Zetsu-Oro could transform into a fused Kisame-Samehada. Regarding the Zetsu-Oro clones, I put the burden on you to prove such a feat. The point about Zetsu redistributing chakra is quite important and I feel it might indeed save Oro in a sticky situation. I'm glad you started another scenario for the battle, I liked the combined transformations. The snakes transforming into sharks seemed like a stretch, but perhaps if a lot of them do a combination transformation (as you suggested) it might be possible.
@beansandcornbread2
I agree that we can't be certain Hydra can release snakes from all its mouths like Oro can. I can't really agree nor disagree with how much of a boost Oro would actually get from hosting a Zetsu body. Generally speaking I liked the idea of gouging out the snakes eyes, but I did not find it too convincing as you already proposed he'd suck out their chakra if he got in CQC. You did not propose his clones would manage the same feat, making me believe you were only defending the original Kisame being capable of doing this.
I think you did good to bolster your defense of Kisame's CQC, but underestimated the potential of summons becoming involved. However, I found the counter against Oro decapitating a fused Kisame quite valid and also found the claim of Oro's teeth not piercing his Samehada infused body to also be valid.
This area of the debate relied heavily on who's scenario of the snakes' potential in water I found more likely. If the snakes do have much greater potential in water, than how likely is Oro to get the battle to such a scale if his Zetsu clones are not capable of the same summoning feats the original Oro is? If they don't share his feats, how much does the 35m starting distance matter in the situation?
Summary:
In general, I disagreed with both of the debaters on a variety of occasions.
I felt that both of you did very well to establish a strategy and incorporate your own advantages. I felt Drae made some pretty heavy assumptions from the go and Beans crushed them quite confidently. But once Drae greatly started utilizing summons and Beans largely obliged, it became an uphill battle for Beans. The fact that Drae was able to combine a series of assaults that had potential to restrict and kill Kisame was very important to me. Yet, Beans eventually bolstering his CQC made me rethink Oro's ability to actually kill him, which was equally important.
Generally I felt I agreed with Beans more-so when it came to raw arguments, but I felt Draegod had more battle tactics. Beans clearly changed his CQC tactics during the debate multiple times. Beans also changed his stance on the small snakes ability to swim underwater. Beans went with the mass summons scenario yet claimed at the end of the debate that Oro did not have the chakra to summon them all. All these facts prove inconsistency.
Did I believe Kisame could kill Oro? Yes, but only in a non-hydra form which would require Kisame's Giant Shark missile to work just as Beans suggested it might (ie not certain to happen). Did I believe Oro could kill Kisame? Unlikely in CQC, but certainly by combining his summons, which Beans generally seemed to accept. Drae's relentless strategy, more consistent debating, and generally superior proof of creating a death scenario eventually put him ahead for me. I vote for Draegod.
Suggestion for both? Don't wait till the end of your post to suddenly drop in new strategies to progress the battle. Do that earlier and avoid re-defending the same points over and over, this simply adds clutter to the debate that yields no profit for you in my eyes. Beans final counter strategies I felt were too little too late.
DemonicAvenger
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kakashi owns all
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BlueMeteor
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DemonicAvenger
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I've got about an hour before I have to go to work. I'll go ahead and read the arguments and If I have time I'll post my verdict, if not I'll put it up this afternoon.
*Edit: Jesus Christ that was a lot of reading. On Drae's last reply and then I'll have the verdict up.
*Edit: Jesus Christ that was a lot of reading. On Drae's last reply and then I'll have the verdict up.
Verdict:
First off there's a few things I want to get out of the way before I get to judging this.
1.) Im not going to entertain any arguing with my judgment, irks tf out of me. (Happened last time I judged a debate)
2.) I was impartial as possible in this judgment. I have history with Drae, but I treated this like I would UMvC3, and their aren't any friends in the ring.
3.) I make my judgments short and sweet. Debates typical have a lot of going back and forth over the same thing over and over (This debate was definitely no exception) so I won't rate each post or anything like that.
At the start of the debate I definitely felt that Drae had the upper hand. He came up with multiple different strategies of how Orochimaru could attack Kisame, and he definitely had me thinking that this was getting wrapped up early (I was more or less clueless about Zetsu Oro before this debate. Its the reason I read it.) Right out of the gate he had Multiple counters to several of Orochimaru's abilities. Though I had two problems with his early posts, one of which Beans never really brought up.
1.) Where is Orochimaru getting all the chakra for all these high level moves (regardless of Senju DNA, the Clones only have the Chakra that Oro would give them and even then its only a portion)
2.) Your strategies were highly specific. Granted it shows the mettle of a debater to be able to come up with these, but Orochimaru wandering across Kisame out of clear blue sky even with full intel couldn't come up with these right off the bat. Just seemed a little out of character.
While Beans on the other hand definitely kept his arguments more "in character" if you will. I felt that you started to come back after the intial post or two, the Samehada absorbing "non-leaking" chakra was a good example of this, but by then the debate was starting to delve into arguments over the size of summons vs Water Dome and petty snake summons vs petty water sharks. Neither of which had a huge impact on the overall outcome of the fight.
I found myself agreeing with Drae in the first half of the debate while I felt that Beans turned it around near the end. Though I felt that Drae had the better arugments in the area's that counted and was, as Floydical said, much more aggressive in his debate.
So Drae gets my vote. Extreme High Diff win.
*This is all I could Think of after seeing the length of some of Drae's responses though
[video=youtube;_gB2iWln0ls]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gB2iWln0ls[/video]
1.) Im not going to entertain any arguing with my judgment, irks tf out of me. (Happened last time I judged a debate)
2.) I was impartial as possible in this judgment. I have history with Drae, but I treated this like I would UMvC3, and their aren't any friends in the ring.
3.) I make my judgments short and sweet. Debates typical have a lot of going back and forth over the same thing over and over (This debate was definitely no exception) so I won't rate each post or anything like that.
At the start of the debate I definitely felt that Drae had the upper hand. He came up with multiple different strategies of how Orochimaru could attack Kisame, and he definitely had me thinking that this was getting wrapped up early (I was more or less clueless about Zetsu Oro before this debate. Its the reason I read it.) Right out of the gate he had Multiple counters to several of Orochimaru's abilities. Though I had two problems with his early posts, one of which Beans never really brought up.
1.) Where is Orochimaru getting all the chakra for all these high level moves (regardless of Senju DNA, the Clones only have the Chakra that Oro would give them and even then its only a portion)
2.) Your strategies were highly specific. Granted it shows the mettle of a debater to be able to come up with these, but Orochimaru wandering across Kisame out of clear blue sky even with full intel couldn't come up with these right off the bat. Just seemed a little out of character.
While Beans on the other hand definitely kept his arguments more "in character" if you will. I felt that you started to come back after the intial post or two, the Samehada absorbing "non-leaking" chakra was a good example of this, but by then the debate was starting to delve into arguments over the size of summons vs Water Dome and petty snake summons vs petty water sharks. Neither of which had a huge impact on the overall outcome of the fight.
I found myself agreeing with Drae in the first half of the debate while I felt that Beans turned it around near the end. Though I felt that Drae had the better arugments in the area's that counted and was, as Floydical said, much more aggressive in his debate.
So Drae gets my vote. Extreme High Diff win.
*This is all I could Think of after seeing the length of some of Drae's responses though
[video=youtube;_gB2iWln0ls]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gB2iWln0ls[/video]
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