[Discussion] At what difficulty can Roger defeat an admiral?

[Vandenre1ch]

Oh my god.
Let me get this straight, I said,



This means - you are not sure about the order in which you want to order your points, its all bits and pieces.
Example - You will start by talking about point 4 then suddenly switch to point 1 and out of the blue you again change the topic to point 3. So you are not sure in what order you want to make your points. Which is way too confusing to give a damn.

The fact remains that you still lied in that thread about me abusing you and then just left. It's not because you loose interest, it's because you have no replies.



And this thread was about Roger fighting 1vs1 against an admiral, and I stressed that Roger was the Pirate King and a King means he is the top dog when it comes to Pirates (This is confirmed when akainu said to Ace that WB always remained second to Roger), Just like A Captain is the top dog on his ship and a Fleet admiral stands at the top of the marine pyramid.

Instead, this thread was steered towards the point that Roger was Pirate king because of his crew, which is partly correct and partly wrong because it was his power to make friends that created the crew and made them stronger in the first place (you see dedication is a 2 way street, if the captain is willing to fight the world for you, then you are ready to fight the world for your captain) and the fact remains he was still the strongest in that crew.

And if his underling rayleigh could land a blow to kizaru and draw his blood and keep Fighting him (without a scratch to himself) after almost 20 years of being in retirement (Gambling and drinking) and still avoid being captured by Kizaru even though he was a wanted man (after the strawhats disappeared) and could still swim across an entire calm belt, then I highly doubt that a Pirate King would be pushed to High diff beating an admiral. It would be mid diff.

"Cohesive" was a typo.

The fact is that I had a perfect understanding of my points. It was YOU who couldn't comprehend them

I never lied. You implied that I was stupid by saying I didn't have a coherent understanding of my very own points. You even called me a *****.

I was gonna reply to that but Riker Slade already said what I was going to say.

See how I structured my replies? I did it the exact same way on the other topic minus the colors. Its your fault for not realizing something so simple.....again...

 

[Anduril]

[/COLOR]

"Cohesive" was a typo.

The fact is that I had a perfect understanding of my points. It was YOU who couldn't comprehend them

I never lied. You implied that I was stupid by saying I didn't have a coherent understanding of my very own points. You even called me a *****.

I was gonna reply to that but Riker Slade already said what I was going to say.

See how I structured my replies? I did it the exact same way on the other topic minus the colors. Its your fault for not realizing something so simple.....again...

Red - You had the understanding but I was your debater and it was confusing for me, which mean you failed to make your debater understand. It's your loss.

Blue - Yes you did, as I explained in my posts in that thread I never implied anything, it's you taking every little thing as an insult.

Green - And I replied to that, but like always when you have no replies you simply ignore it.

See how I replied to your structured post?

 

[Vandenre1ch]

Red - You had the understanding but I was your debater and it was confusing for me, which mean you failed to make your debater understand. It's your loss.

Blue - Yes you did, as I explained in my posts in that thread I never implied anything, it's you taking every little thing as an insult.

Green - And I replied to that, but like always when you have no replies you simply ignore it.

See how I replied to your structured post?

Your loss my loss whatever. Not my fault you couldn't understand a simple post of mine but could understand my other post that were structured the same way. This is strange since all my post are structured the same way yet you claim one is structured and not the other? Make up your mind. You are the ONLY person to not understand the way I structure my posts so someone is wrong on your side.

This isn't going to go anymore as you constantly deny that you said in an attempt to "win" a long over debate.

Or I didn't know you replied to him. You really like to jump to conclusions that support you.

It seems that you'll say and deny anything as long as it means you "win." When someone doesn't reply to you, you assume that they have nothing left to say and "ran away." Please know that you can't be right about everything and will lose from time to time. That goes for everyone.

 

[Punk Hazard]

You might want to re read it. Very little was shown at all and every scene they were at a standstill. There was one scene where Rayleigh was talking and it had 3 small pant texts written in it. You guys are talking the smallest indication that someone is fighting and turning it into a vital weakness that Rayleigh had. He was not running out of stamina. Stop blowing things outta proportion He looks just fine in this scan afterwards.

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In fact where is the panting in the bottom right panels in this scan?. Present one panel before and then gone and you are saying he is fatigued.

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The point of those pants is to show you that it isn't easy to hold off kizaru, it isn't to say he can't hold him off.

It doesn't change the fact that a brief clash caused Rayleigh to become out of breath. He caught his breath because the clashing stopped, but the fact that he WAS huffing due to the clash and Kizaru was not shows superiority for the Admiral.

 

[Anduril]

Your loss my loss whatever. Not my fault you couldn't understand a simple post of mine but could understand my other post that were structured the same way. This is strange since all my post are structured the same way yet you claim one is structured and not the other? Make up your mind. You are the ONLY person to not understand the way I structure my posts so someone is wrong on your side.

This isn't going to go anymore as you constantly deny that you said in an attempt to "win" a long over debate.

Or I didn't know you replied to him. You really like to jump to conclusions that support you.

It seems that you'll say and deny anything as long as it means you "win." When someone doesn't reply to you, you assume that they have nothing left to say and "ran away." Please know that you can't be right about everything and will lose from time to time. That goes for everyone.

I understand I can't be right every time, and as such I have only ever debated when Prime whitebeard and Prime Roger are expected to battle an admiral at High diff. That is going way overboard with the admiral wank.
And what you said about one cannot always be right applies to everyone, but half of the people supporting you make false posts and then start strutting around.

 

[Anduril]

It doesn't change the fact that a brief clash caused Rayleigh to become out of breath. He caught his breath because the clashing stopped, but the fact that he WAS huffing due to the clash and Kizaru was not shows superiority for the Admiral.

@Cloudsblacklightning Look at this prime example of a strut, his panties are in a twist when we get wet over a cut, but he is giving out rivers of wet fatigue over a "Huf" from a pirate who has been doing nothing but gambling and drinking for 20 years.

 

[Vandenre1ch]

@Cloudsblacklightning Look at this prime example of a strut, his panties are in a twist when we get wet over a cut, but he is giving out rivers of wet fatigue over a "Huf" from a pirate who has been doing nothing but gambling and drinking for 20 years.

How is that wank? Again, what Riker Slade said was very simple. Rayleigh was huffing and Kizaru was not. Huffing indicates fatigue/loss of stamina. It implies that Kizaru would've beaten Old Rayleigh because Old Rayligh's stamina isn't good enough.

 

[Punk Hazard]

@Cloudsblacklightning Look at this prime example of a strut, his panties are in a twist when we get wet over a cut, but he is giving out rivers of wet fatigue over a "Huf" from a pirate who has been doing nothing but gambling and drinking for 20 years.

Did you ever stop to think that Rayleigh spending 20 years gambling and drinking, and hadn't picked up a sword for a long time, is precisely why he was out of breath in the first place? Kizaru is no pushover, he has the strength to hold down Whitebeard's bisento with one leg. That kind of force behind Kizaru's sword means Rayleigh is gonna have to give in just as much force, something his body isn't used to doing anymore, hence why he was out of breath.

Kizaru getting a cut on his face is trivial because Kizaru is part of the group of characters that are regularly fighting, regularly shattering steel and smashing through buildings, etc. Rayleigh huffing is significant because it is a sign that he is no longer the combatant he once was; it's a sign of Kizaru's superiority due to Rayleigh's lack of practice and lack of combat over the past 20 years dulling his body to exerting the kind of force it takes to fend off a swing from Kizaru. If the fight had continued, Rayleigh's body would have failed him and he would have depleted his stamina in order to produce the force needed to match Kizaru(energy is converted in order to do work; his stored energy, which is stamina, is converted and transferred to the energy he need to swing his sword and produce enough force to match Kizaru's strikes. Huffing indicates he was running out of stamina, and would have eventually been unable to match Kizaru, who showed no signs of signification depletion of energy). The difference between Kizaru getting a cut and Rayleigh huffing is the difference between an athlete running down a road and a kid who never exercises running down the road.

I was gonna reply with this to your hypocrisy post, but it's become rather uninteresting to actually carry the debate with you in particular, which is why I stopped responding to you for the most part.

 

[Anduril]

How is that wank? Again, what Riker Slade said was very simple. Rayleigh was huffing and Kizaru was not. Huffing indicates fatigue/loss of stamina. It implies that Kizaru would've beaten Old Rayleigh because Old Rayligh's stamina isn't good enough.

Look at Law's fight, he had his heart squeezed at punk hazard, beaten like shit by vergo and then by Fujitora and Doflamingo (almost within the space of a day), shot thrice with lead bullets, got his arm ripped off, was cuffed with Kairoseki and still managed to critically injure Doflamingo, create and sustain a room so big that it was not visible + also take down one of his underlings.

And you tell me that a single huff from an old man means that the fight between the two won't go to Extreme diff/ High diff?
And if that Fight goes to extreme diff/High diff, then there is no way Prime Roger gets a High diff against an admiral.

And nobody here is listening to reason at all.

 

[Vandenre1ch]

Look at Law's fight, he had his heart squeezed at punk hazard, beaten like shit by vergo and then by Fujitora and Doflamingo (almost within the space of a day), shot thrice with lead bullets, got his arm ripped off, was cuffed with Kairoseki and still managed to critically injure Doflamingo, create and sustain a room so big that it was not visible + also take down one of his underlings.

And you tell me that a single huff from an old man means that the fight between the two won't go to Extreme diff/ High diff?
And if that Fight goes to extreme diff/High diff, then there is no way Prime Roger gets a High diff against an admiral.

And nobody here is listening to reason at all.

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Once again, you completely missed the point. I never said anything about difficulty. Rayleigh being out of breath against a freaking admiral while the admiral is just fine is a clear indication that Rayleigh was at a disadvantage and would've lost.

Almost forgot, everything you said about Law has nothing to do with the Rayleigh vs Kizaru topic. Their circumstances were completely different. If you can't see the glaring differences then. I don't know....I can honestly say that I'm done here. My headache has returned and its stronger than ever....

 

[ssjelf]

It doesn't change the fact that a brief clash caused Rayleigh to become out of breath. He caught his breath because the clashing stopped, but the fact that he WAS huffing due to the clash and Kizaru was not shows superiority for the Admiral.

He caught his breath in 3 panels? That tells me he really wasn't that tired. Look at luffy for instance, he was huffing away in that panel. If a 3 second pause is long enough to recover his stamina then it isnt an issue. In OP pauses happen all the time in the fights.

 

[Anduril]

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Once again, you completely missed the point. I never said anything about difficulty. Rayleigh being out of breath against a freaking admiral while the admiral is just fine is a clear indication that Rayleigh was at a disadvantage and would've lost.

Almost forgot, everything you said about Law has nothing to do with the Rayleigh vs Kizaru topic. Their circumstances were completely different. I can honestly say that I'm done here. My headache has returned and its stronger than ever....

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Circumstances my ass!
Read the freaking headline of this thread you obnoxious man. Its all about the freaking topic.
If rayleigh manages to take the fight with Kizaru to High diff at that age, then its clear as day that Roger would be mid-diffing an admiral.
And Law's example was to indicate the kind of stamina chrachters in one piece have, so a freaking huff in one piece means shit.

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[Vandenre1ch]

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Circumstances my ass!
Read the freaking headline of this thread you obnoxious man. Its all about the freaking topic.
If rayleigh manages to take the fight with Kizaru to High diff at that age, then its clear as day that Roger would be mid-diffing an admiral.
And Law's example was to indicate the kind of stamina chrachters in one piece have, so a freaking huff in one piece means shit.

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Again, I never said anything about difficulty. Why even bring up Law? On PH, he was clearly stronger than Vergo. Law just needed to get his heart back and he completely recovered before arriving in Dressrosa. He then fought a losing battle against Fujitora+Doflamingo and every fight afterwards was Law being injured. Every strong OP character has great stamina and a fresh Rayleigh's stamina is lower than a fresh Kizaru's as they stalemated each other. That's means Old Rayleigh would've lost.

Also, admiral level does not exist as the gaps in strength between top tiers is minimal. It was never stated that Roger was on a whole other level and there is a lot more quotes in the manga that directly implies that all top tiers are on the same level. You are just assuming that Roger would med dif an "admiral" which is very unlikely. Pirate King is a title that has nothing to do with strength. Directly that is.

 

[ssjelf]

Again, I never said anything about difficulty. Why even bring up Law? On PH, he was clearly stronger than Vergo. Law just needed to get his heart back and he completely recovered before arriving in Dressrosa. He then fought a losing battle against Fujitora+Doflamingo and every fight afterwards was Law being injured. Every strong OP character has great stamina and a fresh Rayleigh's stamina is lower than a fresh Kizaru's as they stalemated each other. That's means Old Rayleigh would've lost.

Also, admiral level does not exist as the gaps in strength between top tiers is minimal. It was never stated that Roger was on a whole other level and there is a lot more quotes in the manga that directly implies that all top tiers are on the same level. You are just assuming that Roger would med dif an "admiral" which is very unlikely. Pirate King is a title that has nothing to do with strength. Directly that is.

You aren't saying something about difficulty but he is. Doesn't matter about you not mentioning it, he is using it to make an argument and you are decidedly ignoring it.

The gaps between tiers is unclear. Your color theory from OJ does not apply at all. The titlle of PK itself means nothing but that has more to do with luffys strength after obtains the title than it does with rogers. There are no quotes that say the gap is low, in fact multiple quotes I have posted say that only two men could compete with roger, WB and garp. Thats manga fact, stop debating that. No matter how much you try to interpret that in other ways, it means that roger was one of the three strongest people in the world. Not one of the the 15 or so your theory seems to state. WB was strongest in the world when old, stronger when prime. That is all htat needs said and that isnt even my interpretation of it, thats just how it is stated in the manga many times.

 

[Vandenre1ch]

You aren't saying something about difficulty but he is. Doesn't matter about you not mentioning it, he is using it to make an argument and you are decidedly ignoring it.

The gaps between tiers is unclear. Your color theory from OJ does not apply at all. The titlle of PK itself means nothing but that has more to do with luffys strength after obtains the title than it does with rogers. There are no quotes that say the gap is low, in fact multiple quotes I have posted say that only two men could compete with roger, WB and garp. Thats manga fact, stop debating that. No matter how much you try to interpret that in other ways, it means that roger was one of the three strongest people in the world. Not one of the the 15 or so your theory seems to state. WB was strongest in the world when old, stronger when prime. That is all htat needs said and that isnt even my interpretation of it, thats just how it is stated in the manga many times.

I'm not using my color theory as I've thought for the longest time that top tiers are on par with each other and there are minimal gaps between them. Yes. So far, only WB and Garp were said to have almost killed Roger but has it ever been stated that none else could extreme diff Roger? You can have a 10/10 chance of beating but they can still extreme diff you in all 10 fights.

The person in question here is Roger and most of the comments are saying "Rayliegh can high diff an admiral so Roger can mid diff one." Old Rayleigh would've lost to Kizaru and we don't know the difficulty at which Prime Rayleigh would beat Kizaru. If Rayleigh can beat Kizaru high diff, that doesn't mean he'll beat Akainu or Aokiji high diff. You all are generalizing the admirals into their own strength category that does not exist. The top tiers were portrayed to be on par with each other in Marineford. Roger is no god and he would have high diff against Kizaru at least.

 

[ssjelf]

I'm not using my color theory as I've thought for the longest time that top tiers are on par with each other and there are minimal gaps between them. Yes. So far, only WB and Garp were said to have almost killed Roger but has it ever been stated that none else could extreme diff Roger? You can have a 10/10 chance of beating but they can still extreme diff you in all 10 fights.

The person in question here is Roger and most of the comments are saying "Rayliegh can high diff an admiral so Roger can mid diff one." Old Rayleigh would've lost to Kizaru and we don't know the difficulty at which Prime Rayleigh would beat Kizaru. If Rayleigh can beat Kizaru high diff, that doesn't mean he'll beat Akainu or Aokiji high diff. You all are generalizing the admirals into their own strength category that does not exist. The top tiers were portrayed to be on par with each other in Marineford. Roger is no god and he would have high diff against Kizaru at least.

You literally just said that we are generalizing the admirals and then you proceed to put them into this elusive top tier category. You just generalized their strength yourself. Are you saying that defining their strength relative to one another is wrong, because it clear that akainu beats aokiji because he did. Not only that but they do not belong in top tier, thats roger garp and wb maybe sengoku. Why you ask? because the manga explicitly stated only they could fight each other like equals or corner each other. That is the definition of extreme diff. Sure Akainu and aokiji are equal therefore its extreme diff. If you want to say all the admirals are equal, well then that puts them all below top tier.

Im not saying he is a god. At first i said mid-high but I have since changed my mind to high due to the arguments put here. I am not lumping all of them in one either. I realize that akainu is strongest of the admirals and I have said in other posts that he might even be in rogers league. The difference between admirals however in quite small, its not enough to say that "kizaru is high diffed but aokiji is extreme diffed"

extreme diff is almost killing someone but losing as seen with luffy v lucci. Lucci almost killed luffy, he was so beat he couldn't get up for a long time. Akainu vs old wb goes to old wb extreme diff , i dont see how roger would come out of a fight looking like WB did, or losing a leg like aokiji did when he fought akainu. (upper end extreme diff) Roger would struggle and take some injuries but no way would he be left on the verge of dying if fighting anyone other than garp or WB. Why? Because the manga said so.

 

[Vandenre1ch]

You literally just said that we are generalizing the admirals and then you proceed to put them into this elusive top tier category. You just generalized their strength yourself. Are you saying that defining their strength relative to one another is wrong, because it clear that akainu beats aokiji because he did. Not only that but they do not belong in top tier, thats roger garp and wb maybe sengoku. Why you ask? because the manga explicitly stated only they could fight each other like equals or corner each other. That is the definition of extreme diff. Sure Akainu and aokiji are equal therefore its extreme diff. If you want to say all the admirals are equal, well then that puts them all below top tier.

Im not saying he is a god. At first i said mid-high but I have since changed my mind to high due to the arguments put here. I am not lumping all of them in one either. I realize that akainu is strongest of the admirals and I have said in other posts that he might even be in rogers league. The difference between admirals however in quite small, its not enough to say that "kizaru is high diffed but aokiji is extreme diffed"

extreme diff is almost killing someone but losing as seen with luffy v lucci. Lucci almost killed luffy, he was so beat he couldn't get up for a long time. Akainu vs old wb goes to old wb extreme diff , i dont see how roger would come out of a fight looking like WB did, or losing a leg like aokiji did when he fought akainu. (upper end extreme diff) Roger would struggle and take some injuries but no way would he be left on the verge of dying if fighting anyone other than garp or WB. Why? Because the manga said so.

I said you were generalizing the admirals into a category that does not exist. There is no such thing as admiral level as the title itself is just that; a title. Garp comes to mind. Top tiers are simply the strongest people in the world. Roger, Garp and WB are people who would kill each other. Its pretty much Roger=WB=Garp but just because one guy can't kill the other doesn't mean one can't push the other extreme diff. Lucci vs Luffy was an exteme diff fight but Luffy wasn't dying and Lucci still had the strength to go out and slaughter Luffy crew(I'm talking about before Usopp gave Luffy words of wisdom). Who is to say Shanks can't extreme diff Roger? Who says Akainu can't exteme diff Roger? That manga only said WB was Roger's 100%(or 50/50) equal. Who is to say Roger vs Shanks isn't 50.8% vs. 49.2%?

 

[ssjelf]

I said you were generalizing the admirals into a category that does not exist. There is no such thing as admiral level as the title itself is just that; a title. Garp comes to mind. Top tiers are simply the strongest people in the world. Roger, Garp and WB are people who would kill each other. Its pretty much Roger=WB=Garp but just because one guy can't kill the other doesn't mean one can't push the other extreme diff. Lucci vs Luffy was an exteme diff fight but Luffy wasn't dying and Lucci still had the strength to go out and slaughter Luffy crew(I'm talking about before Usopp gave Luffy words of wisdom). Who is to say Shanks can't extreme diff Roger? Who says Akainu can't exteme diff Roger? That manga only said WB was Roger's 100%(or 50/50) equal. Who is to say Roger vs Shanks isn't 50.8% vs. 49.2%?

We call it that admiral class because we all know the admirals are super close in strength. You are just unhappy with the name because it implies that non-admirals can't be there. So instead you just say top tier because it is elusive enough to fit whatever argument into it you want. Im sorry but we need more exact tier listing than 15 or so people for the upper level tiers. The strength difference evidences itself in WB vs akainu. An aging and beat up man managed to do what he did to an admiral. First we scale WBs power an appropriate amount considering damage received from other fighters. We place old WB vs akainu. We consider the turnout of a previously injured old WB vs akainu to be a stalemate. Take back the injuries and we should arrive at the conclusion that old WB beats akainu at extreme diff. Scale power for aging and we get prime WB=Roger. Sub prime WB in for old WB and we should see a large difference. Marco stated that WB should have been able to dodge attacks that instead he tanked if only WB was younger. From extreme diff to high diff is appropriate. Scaling from high extreme diff to low extreme diff seems silly ) Sub in Roger fro Prime WB because Prime WB=Roger and we get Roger beats akainu high diff. Sub aokiji in we get Roger beats aokiji high diff, this is because Akainu> or = aokiji.

Shanks vs Roger is not the topic and because shanks very little screen time and even less action time, an arguments of shanks vs rogers isnt going to produce results that get us any closer to the topics question. We are focusing on fights and evidence that we can give a more exact estimate of strength to. These fights and outcomes allow us to rank the fighters in some sort of relativity. Perhaps shanks is 50.8 to 49.2 with roger who knows right now, but the same argument doesn't apply to anyone with a good relative fight that can be examined. In other words we the readers are to say the power scaling through examination of the manga, if it doesn't add up that someone high diff someone else then we examine that statment and argue against it with manga evidence and until otherwise stated from Oda himself, we can do this.

 

[Vandenre1ch]

We call it that admiral class because we all know the admirals are super close in strength. You are just unhappy with the name because it implies that non-admirals can't be there. So instead you just say top tier because it is elusive enough to fit whatever argument into it you want. Im sorry but we need more exact tier listing than 15 or so people for the upper level tiers. The strength difference evidences itself in WB vs akainu. An aging and beat up man managed to do what he did to an admiral. First we scale WBs power an appropriate amount considering damage received from other fighters. We place old WB vs akainu. We consider the turnout of a previously injured old WB vs akainu to be a stalemate. Take back the injuries and we should arrive at the conclusion that old WB beats akainu at extreme diff. Scale power for aging and we get prime WB=Roger. Sub prime WB in for old WB and we should see a large difference. Marco stated that WB should have been able to dodge attacks that instead he tanked if only WB was younger. From extreme diff to high diff is appropriate. Scaling from high extreme diff to low extreme diff seems silly ) Sub in Roger fro Prime WB because Prime WB=Roger and we get Roger beats akainu high diff. Sub aokiji in we get Roger beats aokiji high diff, this is because Akainu> or = aokiji.

Shanks vs Roger is not the topic and because shanks very little screen time and even less action time, an arguments of shanks vs rogers isnt going to produce results that get us any closer to the topics question. We are focusing on fights and evidence that we can give a more exact estimate of strength to. These fights and outcomes allow us to rank the fighters in some sort of relativity. Perhaps shanks is 50.8 to 49.2 with roger who knows right now, but the same argument doesn't apply to anyone with a good relative fight that can be examined. In other words we the readers are to say the power scaling through examination of the manga, if it doesn't add up that someone high diff someone else then we examine that statment and argue against it with manga evidence and until otherwise stated from Oda himself, we can do this.

It always comes down to assuming what the other thinks or fells doesn't it? All the reasons you gave about me using top tiers..........not only have I never thought of that once, I must have been seeing things when I see non-admiral characters being called admiral level over the years. I don't like the term "admiral level" because it separates characters who are on par with each other into different strength categories and therefore creates imaginary gaps in strength.

Here we go WB vs Akainu the biggest misconception in Marineford. Old WB was still the WSM and there was no clear difference in strength that would say he was another level compared to Akainu. WB hit Akainu in the back of the head with a gura punch via SNEAK ATTACK and Akainu immediately got back up and removed half of WB's face. Afterwards, while Akainu was wide open in the air, WB hit Akainu with another gura punch and he feel into a crater. Some people that WB would've killed Akainu if he hadn't fallen into the crater, but that is very unlikely seeing how fast Akainu got up after the first one and went one to dig a tunnel underground to intercept Jinbe and beat him, Ivankov and fight all WB Commanders without getting hurt. People overrate the damage Akainu took. When we were shown the aftermath of the war, Akainu was shown with no bandages whatsoever. He was simply tending to his banzai tree.

 

[ssjelf]

It always comes down to assuming what the other thinks or fells doesn't it? All the reasons you gave about me using top tiers..........not only have I never thought of that once, I must have been seeing things when I see non-admiral characters being called admiral level over the years. I don't like the term "admiral level" because it separates characters who are on par with each other into different strength categories and therefore creates imaginary gaps in strength.

Here we go WB vs Akainu the biggest misconception in Marineford. Old WB was still the WSM and there was no clear difference in strength that would say he was another level compared to Akainu. WB hit Akainu in the back of the head with a gura punch via SNEAK ATTACK and Akainu immediately got back up and removed half of WB's face. Afterwards, while Akainu was wide open in the air, WB hit Akainu with another gura punch and he feel into a crater. Some people that WB would've killed Akainu if he hadn't fallen into the crater, but that is very unlikely seeing how fast Akainu got up after the first one and went one to dig a tunnel underground to intercept Jinbe and beat him, Ivankov and fight all WB Commanders without getting hurt. People overrate the damage Akainu took. When we were shown the aftermath of the war, Akainu was shown with no bandages whatsoever. He was simply tending to his banzai tree.

So like I said, you dont like admiral level because it implies non admirals can't be in it. And again you would rather place them in this "top tier" where everyone is equal. You do that because you think it makes your arguments of strength plausible. But the argument that admirals are top tier is unjustified. Only roger prime harp and prime wb have existed at the top. This is because he manga said so. Stop trying to turn top tier into fighters who can't win against roger or wb.

Wb was injured previously to fighting akainu. Your argument doesn't work. It's like as soon as you see wb vs akainu you quit reading. Scale for damage taken previously and wb would win extreme diff. Akainu fel in that hole because he was paralyzed. Akainu got his ass beat by a half dead wb. Akainu was the one who Had to fall in a hole to survive. One more gura punch would have done him in. He was even cursing wb because wb got the upper hand. Wb isn't the one who fell in a hole. Marine ford wb is the most misinterpreted because we got people like you saying stuff that isn't evidenced in the manga. Wb fought so many people before getting to akainu that if he fought him fresh he would win.