Yeah, this is bullshit. Oda may not have developed the idea of Haki to the Koka appearances we've seen after the timeskip, but this "Haki wasn't developed shit" is just that.
This is the same guy who has lots of foreshadowing throughout his manga(fans overblow it, but there is an impressive amount there). This is the same guy who drew Kuma for the first time and told his editor "This man will separate the Strawhat Pirates someday," and then did so about 6 years later. This is the same man who dropped clues about Sanji's heritage. This is the same guy who foreshadowed Marineford by having Ace tell Luffy they'll meet again at the summit, and they did indeed meet again at the Summit War. This is the same guy who had Rayleigh introduced in chapter 19 knowing that he'd be the first mate of the Pirate King and an important figure in the story.
Haki was displayed in chapter 1 when Shanks scared the Sea King. Haoshoku Haki was shown knocking out fodder during the Water 7 Arc when Shanks met Whitebeard, and was shown damaging WB's ship, both things it's continued to do to this day. The original Japanese text had Teach commenting on Luffy's Haki all the way back in Jaya. Kenbonshoku Haki was in prime display during Skypeia. Armament Haki was developed well enough that Oda introduced an entire nation of people who were famous for their usage of Armament Haki. Prior to the timeskip, 15 people displayed Armament Haki. This idea that Oda had underdeveloped Haki in his mind is a bunch of bullshit.
Obviously he had the idea of Haki for quite some time in his head, but the man is only human, and ideas can change over time. Armament Haki was obviously one, just need to look at the way it was presented before and after the time skip to notice that. It was not a fully realized idea yet, which is probably why he chose to barely use it in One Piece's Pre Timeskip and have it abundantly in Post.
Not to mention, Ace never had much of a chance to showcase his skills. I can only remember one proper on screen fight we saw him in, and that was against Blackbeard. Its not that ridiculous to think he has Armament Haki, even if he's not that good at it, and chose not to use it at the time.
Yeah I'm with Guntah all the signs were there that he'd have it people were just holding on to feats too much to allow the thought. The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.
Yes he would have died for two reasons, he had to die for the story and Akainu is stronger than him physically, in DF and logically in haki as well. I argue though that Ace did use it in that punch a bit because how else do we really explain Akainu's arm stopping just before Luffy? If that was Ace's human body alone taking that punch there's no reason it stopped in his chest when Akainu put his arm almost to his elbow inside WB who dwarfs Ace and ace a much higher durability.
BB was stronger than him as well. Shanks went to stop it because he must have known both of their strengths fairly well.
Obviously he had the idea of Haki for quite some time in his head, but the man is only human, and ideas can change over time. Armament Haki was obviously one, just need to look at the way it was presented before and after the time skip to notice that. It was not a fully realized idea yet, which is probably why he chose to barely use it in One Piece's Pre Timeskip and have it abundantly in Post.
Not to mention, Ace never had much of a chance to showcase his skills. I can only remember one proper on screen fight we saw him in, and that was against Blackbeard. Its not that ridiculous to think he has Armament Haki, even if he's not that good at it, and chose not to use it at the time.
Yeah....No. Because Haki prior to the timeskip was definitely developed enough that Ace had ample opportunity to display it. This idea that Ace didn't display Haki because Oda didn't develop it enough makes no sense when we've had 14 users of Armament Haki using it pre-timeskip. And not just using it, but explicitly using it, meaning it was made perfectly clear in the manga Haki was being used.
Examples, comments that the Admirals blocked WB's wave with a wall of Haki. Or Smoker commenting on the Kuja Haki when Hancock attacked him. Blackbeard mentioning Haki when he first saw Luffy's bounty. Or Jozu striking Crocodile. Or Akainu commenting that Vista and Marco were Haki users when the cut at him. It would have been very easy for Ace to attack Blackbeard with Haki and have it mentioned by either him or a crewmate, like Van Ogre commented on Ace having fearsome hand to hand skills.
Ace had two opportunities to use Haki: Against Smoker in Alabasta when his fire powers cancelled out with his, Haki would be the natural choice to turn to. The second is against Blackbeard. Blackbeard reveals to Ace that he's a Logia, and Ace attacks him with Firefly. When Teach is struck, Ace comments confusedly saying an attack like that (Non-Haki) shouldn't have hurt Teach. The only reasonable options are that Ace is an idiot who thinks it's fine to attack other Logias without Haki, or he didn't have it as his disposal at the time.
"Oda didn't have Haki developed properly" isn't applicable because it's blatantly untrue with everything I've pointed out before. You can probably argue it wasn't developed completely, but it was definitely developed enough that Ace could have shown it.
Yeah I'm with Guntah all the signs were there that he'd have it people were just holding on to feats too much to allow the thought. The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.
The absence of evidence is still the absence of evidence. Unless you can tangibly prove something, which you couldn't do with regards to Ace having Haki, it doesn't hold up in a VS battle. There were signs that Ace likely knew Haki, but that meant nothing without confirmation, and that goes double with as many signs as there were that he didn't.
Yeah....No. Because Haki prior to the timeskip was definitely developed enough that Ace had ample opportunity to display it. This idea that Ace didn't display Haki because Oda didn't develop it enough makes no sense when we've had 14 users of Armament Haki using it pre-timeskip. And not just using it, but explicitly using it, meaning it was made perfectly clear in the manga Haki was being used.
Examples, comments that the Admirals blocked WB's wave with a wall of Haki. Or Smoker commenting on the Kuja Haki when Hancock attacked him. Blackbeard mentioning Haki when he first saw Luffy's bounty. Or Jozu striking Crocodile. Or Akainu commenting that Vista and Marco were Haki users when the cut at him. It would have been very easy for Ace to attack Blackbeard with Haki and have it mentioned by either him or a crewmate, like Van Ogre commented on Ace having fearsome hand to hand skills.
Ace had two opportunities to use Haki: Against Smoker in Alabasta when his fire powers cancelled out with his, Haki would be the natural choice to turn to. The second is against Blackbeard. Blackbeard reveals to Ace that he's a Logia, and Ace attacks him with Firefly. When Teach is struck, Ace comments confusedly saying an attack like that (Non-Haki) shouldn't have hurt Teach. The only reasonable options are that Ace is an idiot who thinks it's fine to attack other Logias without Haki, or he didn't have it as his disposal at the time.
"Oda didn't have Haki developed properly" isn't applicable because it's blatantly untrue with everything I've pointed out before. You can probably argue it wasn't developed completely, but it was definitely developed enough that Ace could have shown it.
The absence of evidence is still the absence of evidence. Unless you can tangibly prove something, which you couldn't do with regards to Ace having Haki, it doesn't hold up in a VS battle. There were signs that Ace likely knew Haki, but that meant nothing without confirmation, and that goes double with as many signs as there were that he didn't.
I'm not talking about NB vs rules I'm talking about in general, it was pretty clear Ace should have had haki based on his rank, his time in NW, his pedigree and his grooming by WSM to be next PK. Just because he never displayed it doesn't over ride any of that it just means there's no proof to confirm the logical conclusion that Ace had Bosu haki.
Him not using it at times you feel it would have been crucial isn't evidence he didn't have it though and that stance is moot now because it doesn't matter why he didn't use it in those situations but he didn't. Though I'll argue the Smoker and Akainu times as him having used it.
Akainu I've said before, if Ace took that punch with his body why did it stop going forward? Ace's body isn't anything special, Akainu with a superior DF and strength should have went right to it's target but Ace stopped the punch, his body alone shouldn't be able to do that.
Smoker, I need a clarification on but when a Logia discharges an element like Aokiji with pheasant beak or Ace with fire fist the elements react as elements if they clash right? If so then how did fire stop smoke?
As for BB those aren't the only reasonable options just the ones you'll accept. It's reasonable he didn't trust Teach when he told him he was a Logia or he knew about the YYnM and was being sarcastic.
comments that the Admirals blocked WB's wave with a wall of Haki. Or Smoker commenting on the Kuja Haki when Hancock attacked him. Or Jozu striking Crocodile. Or Akainu commenting that Vista and Marco were Haki users when the cut at him
All of these took place after Ace vs BB or Aec vs Smoker so they don't really serve as counter points to it not being as developed at the time of Ace's occurances.
Blackbeard mentioning Haki when he first saw Luffy's bounty
Yeah....No. Because Haki prior to the timeskip was definitely developed enough that Ace had ample opportunity to display it. This idea that Ace didn't display Haki because Oda didn't develop it enough makes no sense when we've had 14 users of Armament Haki using it pre-timeskip. And not just using it, but explicitly using it, meaning it was made perfectly clear in the manga Haki was being used.
Examples, comments that the Admirals blocked WB's wave with a wall of Haki. Or Smoker commenting on the Kuja Haki when Hancock attacked him. Blackbeard mentioning Haki when he first saw Luffy's bounty. Or Jozu striking Crocodile. Or Akainu commenting that Vista and Marco were Haki users when the cut at him. It would have been very easy for Ace to attack Blackbeard with Haki and have it mentioned by either him or a crewmate, like Van Ogre commented on Ace having fearsome hand to hand skills.
Ace had two opportunities to use Haki: Against Smoker in Alabasta when his fire powers cancelled out with his, Haki would be the natural choice to turn to. The second is against Blackbeard. Blackbeard reveals to Ace that he's a Logia, and Ace attacks him with Firefly. When Teach is struck, Ace comments confusedly saying an attack like that (Non-Haki) shouldn't have hurt Teach. The only reasonable options are that Ace is an idiot who thinks it's fine to attack other Logias without Haki, or he didn't have it as his disposal at the time.
"Oda didn't have Haki developed properly" isn't applicable because it's blatantly untrue with everything I've pointed out before. You can probably argue it wasn't developed completely, but it was definitely developed enough that Ace could have shown it.
The absence of evidence is still the absence of evidence. Unless you can tangibly prove something, which you couldn't do with regards to Ace having Haki, it doesn't hold up in a VS battle. There were signs that Ace likely knew Haki, but that meant nothing without confirmation, and that goes double with as many signs as there were that he didn't.
The smoker situation wouldn't count in my opinion because I don't think ace wanted to fight him anyway. Plus the way their DF cancelled out was similar to the ace vs kuzan clash. The black beard situation makes sense. The only reason I can think of is that Oda wanted to show that BB DF was special. He should have shown it tbh and the only thing that makes sense is he didnt have it. However if he does end up having it in the novel it means that either Oda changed his mind or just didn't think it through properly at the time
I'm not talking about NB vs rules I'm talking about in general, it was pretty clear Ace should have had haki based on his rank, his time in NW, his pedigree and his grooming by WSM to be next PK. Just because he never displayed it doesn't over ride any of that it just means there's no proof to confirm the logical conclusion that Ace had Bosu haki.
None of those things actually change the fact that there are also very clear signs that he didn't have it. There are circumstances around Ace's position, time in the NW, and rank that allow those things to exist without him having Haki, so they hardly act as likely indicators or evidence.
The argument that Ace was being groomed to become PK by itself doesn't mean that Ace had Haki. Let's look at power in respect to what's expected of the Pirate King and Ace's power; with the idea of what should be the power of the PK in mind(since Ace was being groomed in power to be PK), does the Pirate King sound like someone who would stalemate with a Captain, hunt down someone and be soundly defeated, and then executed by an Admiral in one-shot after sitting helpless unable to escape from jail and a scafford? No.
The point I'm trying to make here is that "Ace was being groomed to be PK" is a phrase full of buzz-words, and ultimately means nothing when we look at the limit of Ace's capabilities given to us. To be groomed to become the PK, Ace has to start somewhere, meaning there will be a period where Ace is being groomed, but doesn't have things related to being PK, including Haki. The time between Ace's start to privacy and his death is likely that period.
This is reinforced by the timeline and Rayleigh's words. Ray stated that 2 years typically isn't enough time to learn the basics of Haki. Ace was a pirate for just over 3 years. He met Masked Deuce and formed the Spade Pirates over a year, building up the reputation to getting the Shichibukai invite. He then joined the WB pirates, leaving less than two years that he was with the crew, which leaves less time than it takes to learn the basics of Haki, much less be proficient in it.
Him not using it at times you feel it would have been crucial isn't evidence he didn't have it though and that stance is moot now because it doesn't matter why he didn't use it in those situations but he didn't. Though I'll argue the Smoker and Akainu times as him having used it.
Sorry, but it does. Not using an ability, by itself, breaks down support that you can use it. Not using that ability in two situations that need that specific ability breaks down support even more. Referencing that that specific ability is needed during one of those situations, acknowledging that you NEEDED it, and still didn't use it, that clinches it.
Akainu I've said before, if Ace took that punch with his body why did it stop going forward? Ace's body isn't anything special, Akainu with a superior DF and strength should have went right to it's target but Ace stopped the punch, his body alone shouldn't be able to do that.
You answered the question yourself. Because the attack hit Ace's actual body. For one thing, Ace doesn't have a choice in how Akainu's DF powers hit his body, since they neutralize his powers and burn his actual body regardless.
Secondly, Ace's body was strong enough to withstand fighting a Fishman for five days and Ogre stated his physical abilities were fearsome, so yeah, it's not hard to imagine that his actual body stopped the fist. I don't know why you're expecting a simple punch from Akainu to destroy his entire body and continue on or some shit. Looking at how Akainu's attacks hit Jinbei, someone else portrayed on his level, you shouldn't be surprised. There's also that your idea that Ace stopped the punch isn't even concrete, and all that the punch was was what Akainu intended it to be.
Smoker, I need a clarification on but when a Logia discharges an element like Aokiji with pheasant beak or Ace with fire fist the elements react as elements if they clash right? If so then how did fire stop smoke?
They cancelled out. The physics of it all wasn't explained, and frankly doesn't matter when it happened.
As for BB those aren't the only reasonable options just the ones you'll accept. It's reasonable he didn't trust Teach when he told him he was a Logia or he knew about the YYnM and was being sarcastic.
Why would he not trust Teach? What reason would Ace have to doubt Teach when he's bragadocious and doesn't have any qualms about bragging about his abilities.
All of these took place after Ace vs BB or Aec vs Smoker so they don't really serve as counter points to it not being as developed at the time of Ace's occurances.
Given that Oda has drawn things knowing what relevance they would have up to 6-8 years later, and those things happened in proximity to Ace vs Teach, yeah, they should he had the idea developed enough in time.
That didn't really do anything to clear up what haki was at the time.
Please show me where I said it did anything to clear up what Haki was to us, because I'm certain I said it shows that Oda had the concept in his mind then.
Not really. Kuzan and Ace clashed one long-range technique, and then Ace continued running. Smoker and Ace faced off against each other for several attacks, then noted that continuing to fight was useless since their powers were completely useless against each other
The black beard situation makes sense. The only reason I can think of is that Oda wanted to show that BB DF was special. He should have shown it tbh and the only thing that makes sense is he didnt have it. However if he does end up having it in the novel it means that either Oda changed his mind or just didn't think it through properly at the time
Ace didn't care to use Haki because he never had any competition until he came across BB and later Akainu. Also, if Ace used Haki with these two, the plot would've stopped right there.
None of those things actually change the fact that there are also very clear signs that he didn't have it. There are circumstances around Ace's position, time in the NW, and rank that allow those things to exist without him having Haki, so they hardly act as likely indicators or evidence.
The argument that Ace was being groomed to become PK by itself doesn't mean that Ace had Haki. Let's look at power in respect to what's expected of the Pirate King and Ace's power; with the idea of what should be the power of the PK in mind(since Ace was being groomed in power to be PK), does the Pirate King sound like someone who would stalemate with a Captain, hunt down someone and be soundly defeated, and then executed by an Admiral in one-shot after sitting helpless unable to escape from jail and a scafford? No.
The point I'm trying to make here is that "Ace was being groomed to be PK" is a phrase full of buzz-words, and ultimately means nothing when we look at the limit of Ace's capabilities given to us. To be groomed to become the PK, Ace has to start somewhere, meaning there will be a period where Ace is being groomed, but doesn't have things related to being PK, including Haki. The time between Ace's start to privacy and his death is likely that period.
This is reinforced by the timeline and Rayleigh's words. Ray stated that 2 years typically isn't enough time to learn the basics of Haki. Ace was a pirate for just over 3 years. He met Masked Deuce and formed the Spade Pirates over a year, building up the reputation to getting the Shichibukai invite. He then joined the WB pirates, leaving less than two years that he was with the crew, which leaves less time than it takes to learn the basics of Haki, much less be proficient in it.
Sorry, but it does. Not using an ability, by itself, breaks down support that you can use it. Not using that ability in two situations that need that specific ability breaks down support even more. Referencing that that specific ability is needed during one of those situations, acknowledging that you NEEDED it, and still didn't use it, that clinches it.
You answered the question yourself. Because the attack hit Ace's actual body. For one thing, Ace doesn't have a choice in how Akainu's DF powers hit his body, since they neutralize his powers and burn his actual body regardless.
Secondly, Ace's body was strong enough to withstand fighting a Fishman for five days and Ogre stated his physical abilities were fearsome, so yeah, it's not hard to imagine that his actual body stopped the fist. I don't know why you're expecting a simple punch from Akainu to destroy his entire body and continue on or some shit. Looking at how Akainu's attacks hit Jinbei, someone else portrayed on his level, you shouldn't be surprised. There's also that your idea that Ace stopped the punch isn't even concrete, and all that the punch was was what Akainu intended it to be.
They cancelled out. The physics of it all wasn't explained, and frankly doesn't matter when it happened.
Why would he not trust Teach? What reason would Ace have to doubt Teach when he's bragadocious and doesn't have any qualms about bragging about his abilities.
Given that Oda has drawn things knowing what relevance they would have up to 6-8 years later, and those things happened in proximity to Ace vs Teach, yeah, they should he had the idea developed enough in time.
Please show me where I said it did anything to clear up what Haki was to us, because I'm certain I said it shows that Oda had the concept in his mind then.
He was a Marine hunting his little brother. He killed Crocodile's Billions for less motivation.
Not really. Kuzan and Ace clashed one long-range technique, and then Ace continued running. Smoker and Ace faced off against each other for several attacks, then noted that continuing to fight was useless since their powers were completely useless against each other
For one thing, that's misleading, since these novels weren't written by Oda nor did he directly make that statement.
Not only that, but is it confirmed the books are canon? I know Oda supervised it, but he also has supervision over filler and the movies (even wrote two), and those aren't canon.
Thirdly, our debate is on whether or not there were enough signs to assume whether Ace had Haki or not before this novel was released, so it bears no weight on what we're talking about.
You guys are forgetting he used conquerors haki against those bandits in grey terminal, he maybe lost the ability to use it for lack of training or needing to use it.. (he could regain it though)
None of those things actually change the fact that there are also very clear signs that he didn't have it. There are circumstances around Ace's position, time in the NW, and rank that allow those things to exist without him having Haki, so they hardly act as likely indicators or evidence.
You're "clear signs" aren't signs though and you just refuse to accept that. If I say I have $5 but don't have it in my pocket to show you that doesn't mean I don't have $5, that's the equivalent of your stance, well he didn't show it at this time so he must not have it. There's nothing around his position or time, his position is comparable to a VA or higher which all have Armament haki as a requirement, he spent years in the NW where arrogant Logias who rely on ther DF die quick before he ever met WB and got his "protection" as you like to call it.
The argument that Ace was being groomed to become PK by itself doesn't mean that Ace had Haki. Let's look at power in respect to what's expected of the Pirate King and Ace's power; with the idea of what should be the power of the PK in mind(since Ace was being groomed in power to be PK), does the Pirate King sound like someone who would stalemate with a Captain, hunt down someone and be soundly defeated, and then executed by an Admiral in one-shot after sitting helpless unable to escape from jail and a scafford? No.
I'm genuinely starting to wonder if you know the difference between evidence and proof. Being groomed to be PK isn't proof he had haki and I didn't say it was I said it's evidence to support the notion that he did because why would the WSM, rival to the PK, groom a successor and not give him the tools he would need to reach that goal especially seeing as he's a logia who will need arm haki in the NW? When the PK was a 19 year old kid who knows? Not you so your false question holds no merit. Food for thought though, the next PK is pretty much what you just described so....
The point I'm trying to make here is that "Ace was being groomed to be PK" is a phrase full of buzz-words, and ultimately means nothing when we look at the limit of Ace's capabilities given to us. To be groomed to become the PK, Ace has to start somewhere, meaning there will be a period where Ace is being groomed, but doesn't have things related to being PK, including Haki. The time between Ace's start to privacy and his death is likely that period.
True but let's look at the other example of PK grooming, Luffy Ace's "brother", one of the first things Rayleigh told him was he'd need better haki. Ace started his journey 2 years prior to Luffy who already had haki
This is reinforced by the timeline and Rayleigh's words. Ray stated that 2 years typically isn't enough time to learn the basics of Haki. Ace was a pirate for just over 3 years. He met Masked Deuce and formed the Spade Pirates over a year, building up the reputation to getting the Shichibukai invite. He then joined the WB pirates, leaving less than two years that he was with the crew, which leaves less time than it takes to learn the basics of Haki, much less be proficient in it.
I'll admit I enjoy your attempt at rationalizing. Rayleigh says typically and you try to lump Ace in there despite just saying that Ogres commented on his ability and he fought Fishmen for 5 days so is he typical or not? Plus let's not try to act like Ace would be a typical student, we've all seen the hype laid out around the 3 brothers and Ace had always been better than Luffy who learned it in two years so by what logical reason would Ace not be able to also?
Sorry, but it does. Not using an ability, by itself, breaks down support that you can use it. Not using that ability in two situations that need that specific ability breaks down support even more. Referencing that that specific ability is needed during one of those situations, acknowledging that you NEEDED it, and still didn't use it, that clinches it.
No it doesn't, that's just the only angle you want to see it from and refute any and all other scenarios. Not using something is not proof of not being able to. No matter how many times you say it, it won't make it proof. It's a reason to doubt and nothing more. If I say I can jump a fence but climb it instead that's not proof I couldn't jump it but it is a reason for you to doubt the claim. If I say my friend can break that board and when you ask him to break it for you he says "I don't wanna" that's not proof he can't break the board if he wanted to, that's the equivalent to your stance on this matter.
You answered the question yourself. Because the attack hit Ace's actual body. For one thing, Ace doesn't have a choice in how Akainu's DF powers hit his body, since they neutralize his powers and burn his actual body regardless.
That's my point Magma nullifies Ace's fire defense so now it's magma vs skin and Akainu's strength vs Ace's strength; Ace's body shouldn't have been able to stop his arm after it already pierced through his body, it's like he tightened his stomach to trap the arm but you can't trap Logia without using haki to touch them.
Secondly, Ace's body was strong enough to withstand fighting a Fishman for five days and Ogre stated his physical abilities were fearsome, so yeah, it's not hard to imagine that his actual body stopped the fist. I don't know why you're expecting a simple punch from Akainu to destroy his entire body and continue on or some shit. Looking at how Akainu's attacks hit Jinbei, someone else portrayed on his level, you shouldn't be surprised. There's also that your idea that Ace stopped the punch isn't even concrete, and all that the punch was was what Akainu intended it to be.
Fishmen are 10 times stronger than humans as a species, you're comparing a fishman body to a human body. And yea Ace was above average but Akainu still shoved his arm to almost the elbow inside WB, that size alone is wider than Ace's body so if Akainu can get elbow deep into WB who has a tougher body and defense then why wouldn't it go further through Ace's body? Akianu's DF already gave him an edge in attacking Ace so the fact that he had a smaller body than WB would mean he'd also have less natural resistance to offer.
They cancelled out. The physics of it all wasn't explained, and frankly doesn't matter when it happened.
Of course it matters you just want to dismiss it because it pokes a hole in your side. If the elements react as elements then how did fire stop smoke? And technically there was only one clash on panel anything else you're putting in like this "Smoker and Ace faced off against each other for several attacks, then noted that continuing to fight was useless since their powers were completely useless against each other" is conjecture, like how you jump on people about Shanks/Kaidou we don't know how that instance really went after the first panel. You're using anime material and in the manga he says "Your powers don't stand a chance against mine" not "A fight would be pointless" also notice no big explosion behind as they run away like was in the anime in fact the manga suggests Ace just blocked them off
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Why would he not trust Teach? What reason would Ace have to doubt Teach when he's bragadocious and doesn't have any qualms about bragging about his abilities.
Why would he not trust a deceitful backstabbing pirate who betrayed his crew and captain? Gee idk. Could have something to do with him not having a fruit last time Ace saw him so he wanted to test if he was bluffing or telling the truth to help determine his next moves. Could be Ace thought he may over exaggerate as you said he is braggadocios. Could be Ace is a bit air headed(which I think we've all seen to be true to a point)
Given that Oda has drawn things knowing what relevance they would have up to 6-8 years later, and those things happened in proximity to Ace vs Teach, yeah, they should he had the idea developed enough in time.
The first time we see arm haki really is Garp at W7 so how can it have been as fully developed in Ace's situation when those instances you show happened well after the Ace encounters? Shanks used CoC back at RD and Luffy used it pre skip before it was named, we can look at Ace and Garp as in a similar boat where both displayed arm haki but before it was named and detailed in manga.
Please show me where I said it did anything to clear up what Haki was to us, because I'm certain I said it shows that Oda had the concept in his mind then.
"but explicitly using it, meaning it was made perfectly clear in the manga Haki was being used.
Examples, comments that the Admirals blocked WB's wave with a wall of Haki. Or Smoker commenting on the Kuja Haki when Hancock attacked him. Blackbeard mentioning Haki when he first saw Luffy's bounty. Or Jozu striking Crocodile. Or Akainu commenting that Vista and Marco were Haki users when the cut at him."
You made the claim in bold that it had been explicitly clear prior to MF how Haki worked and used BB in italics as an example. Not to mention all of those examples were after Ace's moments aside from MF so they don't serve as any sign of haki being as developed a concept at the time of Ace's situations.
IF Ace did use haki at Alabasta vs Smoker it would be the first instance in the manga and as we've seen first instances aren't fully thought out as we've seen CoC expand on uses since being introduced.
You're "clear signs" aren't signs though and you just refuse to accept that. If I say I have $5 but don't have it in my pocket to show you that doesn't mean I don't have $5, that's the equivalent of your stance, well he didn't show it at this time so he must not have it.
The concept of reasonable doubt is gonna blow your mind.
If you don't have tangible evidence to support a statement, that statement is worthless. If you say "I have $5" and you can't prove that you have $5, then yes, there is reason to doubt that you have five dollars. This isn't a hard concept.
There's nothing around his position or time, his position is comparable to a VA or higher which all have Armament haki as a requirement
For one thing, this is misinformation for more than one reason.
1. It was stated that all VAs and up have Haki, not specifically Buso Haki
2. Ace's position is not comparable to any one rank in Marines because A)These are completely different organizations B) The power of VAs and Commanders on either side have been shown to fluctuate widely in strength(Garp compared to Smoker compared to Vergo)/(Marco being able to hold back Akainu while Curiel got ran over without a sweat).
So this comparison is a terrible argument.
he spent years in the NW where arrogant Logias who rely on ther DF die quick before he ever met WB and got his "protection" as you like to call it.
Nope. The One Piece Magazine gave Ace's backstory from forming the Spade Pirates to joining WB. He spent a year in Paradise, and then went to the New World, fought Jinbei, joined WB, and sailed with them for two years(according to the magazine, Ace unlocked Buso before entering the NW on Sabaody).
I'm genuinely starting to wonder if you know the difference between evidence and proof
proof
pro͞of/Submit
noun
1.
evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement.
"you will be asked to give proof of your identity"
synonyms: evidence
ev·i·dence
ˈevədəns/Submit
noun
1.
the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.
"the study finds little evidence of overt discrimination"
synonyms: proof,
Being groomed to be PK isn't proof he had haki and I didn't say it was I said it's evidence to support the notion that he did because why would the WSM, rival to the PK, groom a successor and not give him the tools he would need to reach that goal especially seeing as he's a logia who will need arm haki in the NW? When the PK was a 19 year old kid who knows? Not you so your false question holds no merit. Food for thought though, the next PK is pretty much what you just described so....
I never said Whitebeard wouldn't give Ace Haki while grooming him to become Pirate King, now did I? I said that, given the timeline that Ace was with the WB pirates(at most 2 years) and that Ray stated 2 years isn't enough time to learn the basics of Haki, there is the possibility that Ace had not yet learned even the basics, much less be as proficient as even Luffy.
You say Ace is a Logia who'd need Buso in the NW, yet you've presented nothing to refute that Ace could survive in the NW through the support of the Whitebeard Pirates who have Haki until Ace gets his own, and that WB's name would protect him from many fights. There's also that Teach stated it was some time since Ace was hit, indicating that coming across people able to hit him with Haki wasn't even something Ace encountered often.
You also mention that arrogant Logias tend to be defeated quickly in the NW. Funny how that's exactly what happened to Ace. After entering the NW, he went to find Shanks, then went looking for Whitebeard. He stalemated with Jinbei, was defeated by Whitebeard, and was soundly defeated by Whitebeard over and over and over because of his arrogance. So the thing you're saying would happen if Ace didn't use Haki? That's exactly what DID happen.
True but let's look at the other example of PK grooming, Luffy Ace's "brother", one of the first things Rayleigh told him was he'd need better haki. Ace started his journey 2 years prior to Luffy who already had haki
The last paragraph in the above section serves to address this as well. The very thing Luffy had to learn Haki for in order to avoid is exactly what happened to Ace.
I'll admit I enjoy your attempt at rationalizing. Rayleigh says typically and you try to lump Ace in there despite just saying that Ogres commented on his ability and he fought Fishmen for 5 days so is he typical or not?
Yes? That is how a rule with exceptions work. In order for Ace to be an exception, he has to be demonstrated to be an exception. His abilities in fighting physically doesn't automatically mean he'd be as talented as Luffy in learning Haki. In order to state Ace has the same talent in Haki, he needs to demonstrate that talent in Haki.
Plus let's not try to act like Ace would be a typical student, we've all seen the hype laid out around the 3 brothers and Ace had always been better than Luffy who learned it in two years so by what logical reason would Ace not be able to also?
Show proof that Ace has the same talent in Haki then.
No it doesn't, that's just the only angle you want to see it from and refute any and all other scenarios. Not using something is not proof of not being able to.
Nope. When it comes to manga, if you don't demonstrate feats in an ability, then it can't be said that you have it. You could assume Ace had Haki, but that wasn't even the most likely assumption based on what was shown. Sorry.
No matter how many times you say it, it won't make it proof. It's a reason to doubt and nothing more. If I say I can jump a fence but climb it instead that's not proof I couldn't jump it but it is a reason for you to doubt the claim.
Until you show that you can jump the fence, then your claim that you can is worthless, yes.
If I say my friend can break that board and when you ask him to break it for you he says "I don't wanna" that's not proof he can't break the board if he wanted to, that's the equivalent to your stance on this matter.
Yes. That is how the concept of evidence works. No evidence=doubt. No evidence in a situation where it's what's needed=major doubt. If someone says to you "I can totally do a triple backflip" and you ask them to show you and they say "I don't feel like it," the most likely scenario is they are indeed lying.
That's my point Magma nullifies Ace's fire defense so now it's magma vs skin and Akainu's strength vs Ace's strength; Ace's body shouldn't have been able to stop his arm after it already pierced through his body
Says who? You realize that this happens all the time right? Like, bullets and blades that can be fired into the body, pierce it, and not exit the other side or stop without going completely through? What kind of reach is this?
Fishmen are 10 times stronger than humans as a species, you're comparing a fishman body to a human body.
A human who's been shown to be as strong as that Fishman, yes. Did you miss where Red Hawk defeated Hody Jones but only made Doflamingo stagger when both were hit by direct contact? Human bodies can surpass Fishman bodies.
And yea Ace was above average but Akainu still shoved his arm to almost the elbow inside WB, that size alone is wider than Ace's body so if Akainu can get elbow deep into WB who has a tougher body and defense then why wouldn't it go further through Ace's body?
He did go through Ace's body? Did...did you miss where Akainu's arm was coming out of the other side of Ace's body and Akainu's entire arm was inside of him?
Of course it matters you just want to dismiss it because it pokes a hole in your side. If the elements react as elements then how did fire stop smoke?
How does this matter to the topic we're debating? Ace couldn't hurt Smoker with his flames, so he'd need Haki infused blows to strike his actual body. That's as relevant as it gets. The mechanics of why Ace's fire couldn't hurt Smoker's flames doesn't have any impact on the fact that he'd need to stop using flames, and start using other attacks with Haki to bypass his Logia defense.
And technically there was only one clash on panel anything else you're putting in like this "Smoker and Ace faced off against each other for several attacks, then noted that continuing to fight was useless since their powers were completely useless against each other" is conjecture, like how you jump on people about Shanks/Kaidou we don't know how that instance really went after the first panel. You're using anime material and in the manga he says "Your powers don't stand a chance against mine" not "A fight would be pointless" also notice no big explosion behind as they run away like was in the anime in fact the manga suggests Ace just blocked them off
Ace's actual quote: "We're too evenly matched to settle this now."
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Given that he was talking in reference to their Devil Fruit powers right after their powers visibly cancelled out, the fight being pointless wasn't conjecture but fact. I was mistaken about their fight being multiple attacks, haven't read Alabasta in a while.
Why would he not trust a deceitful backstabbing pirate who betrayed his crew and captain? Gee idk. Could have something to do with him not having a fruit last time Ace saw him so he wanted to test if he was bluffing or telling the truth to help determine his next moves. Could be Ace thought he may over exaggerate as you said he is braggadocios. Could be Ace is a bit air headed(which I think we've all seen to be true to a point)
Haha, very smartass. In actuality, there would be no reason for Ace to doubt Teach when he announced his fruit was a Logia, especially since Ace could visibly see Teach's body turning into the Darkness and leaking it out. It's extremely common for people to announce straight up what their powers are, even deceitful enemies(Crocodile and Enel, for example). For us, it's just a vehicle of exposition, in-universe it's just something people do.
The first time we see arm haki really is Garp at W7 so how can it have been as fully developed in Ace's situation when those instances you show happened well after the Ace encounters? Shanks used CoC back at RD and Luffy used it pre skip before it was named, we can look at Ace and Garp as in a similar boat where both displayed arm haki but before it was named and detailed in manga.
I am not talking about Haki being fully explained, I'm talking about Oda knowing what Haki will be. I'm talking about Oda knowing, in his head, in real life, what the purpose and forms of Haki will be by the time he got to Ace vs Teach. How is this hard to understand? Jesus.
You made the claim in bold that it had been explicitly clear prior to MF how Haki worked
To ODA, not to the AUDIENCE. In MF, it was made clear to the AUDIENCE, but ODA, prior to MF, knew, IN HIS HEAD, TO HIMSELF, how Haki would be used.
and used BB in italics as an example. Not to mention all of those examples were after Ace's moments aside from MF so they don't serve as any sign of haki being as developed a concept at the time of Ace's situations.
As mentioned before, Oda has shown that he's had ideas and concepts finalized years before they're implemented. Given how he's dropped signs of Haki since the first chapter, Jaya, and Skypeia, it's far more likely Haki was such a concept.
IF Ace did use haki at Alabasta vs Smoker it would be the first instance in the manga and as we've seen first instances aren't fully thought out as we've seen CoC expand on uses since being introduced.
It would seem to me he only case where ace should have shown haki and didn't is when he fought smoker. At that point, even though conquerors haki had been shown, the full realized idea of haki wasn't developed. At that point in the story, observation haki hadn't happened yet (happens the next arc) and armament was still years away. I think it is safe to say armament haki wasn't implemented into the story yet. Ace suffers the same power scaling issues as every other side character in every shonen ever in that he was introduced too early to benefit from developing ideas.
It would seem to me he only case where ace should have shown haki and didn't is when he fought smoker. At that point, even though conquerors haki had been shown, the full realized idea of haki wasn't developed. At that point in the story, observation haki hadn't happened yet (happens the next arc) and armament was still years away. I think it is safe to say armament haki wasn't implemented into the story yet. Ace suffers the same power scaling issues as every other side character in every shonen ever in that he was introduced too early to benefit from developing ideas.
It would seem to me he only case where ace should have shown haki and didn't is when he fought smoker. At that point, even though conquerors haki had been shown, the full realized idea of haki wasn't developed. At that point in the story, observation haki hadn't happened yet (happens the next arc) and armament was still years away. I think it is safe to say armament haki wasn't implemented into the story yet. Ace suffers the same power scaling issues as every other side character in every shonen ever in that he was introduced too early to benefit from developing ideas.
The only reason it doesn't seem that way about Blackbeard is that we know Blackbeard can be harmed without it. However, Ace doesn't know that, and attacked him several times without Haki, and then voiced his surprise that it worked. Both were situations that, to the knowledge of Ace, needed Haki.
Armament wasn't implemented into the story, but it still stands to reason that Oda had it in his mind when Ace fought Teach at the very least.
For one thing, that's misleading, since these novels weren't written by Oda nor did he directly make that statement.
Not only that, but is it confirmed the books are canon? I know Oda supervised it, but he also has supervision over filler and the movies (even wrote two), and those aren't canon.
Thirdly, our debate is on whether or not there were enough signs to assume whether Ace had Haki or not before this novel was released, so it bears no weight on what we're talking about.
The only reason it doesn't seem that way about Blackbeard is that we know Blackbeard can be harmed without it. However, Ace doesn't know that, and attacked him several times without Haki, and then voiced his surprise that it worked. Both were situations that, to the knowledge of Ace, needed Haki.
Armament wasn't implemented into the story, but it still stands to reason that Oda had it in his mind when Ace fought Teach at the very least.
If ace knew non-haki type attacks wouldn't hurt BB, (and it seems that you are saying Ace knew about haki being able to affect logias) then Ace knew of haki but wasn't able to use it himself... that would be kinda weird.
There are a few potential explanations for this:
1: Ace hit BB with a ranged attack, we haven't seen ranged attacks imbued with haki to my knowledge (If I am wrong, let me know). Therefore ace was saying a ranged attack shouldn't have hurt BB because it didn't have haki.
2: At this point in the story, armament haki wasn't colored. If ace hit BB with haki imbued attacks after the first, would we really have known?
3: Ace felt no reason to use haki here. His first attack was to test if BB was lying about being a logia and eating a DF. Once he realized he could hit him without haki he decided he didn't need it (maybe for stamina reasons or maybe because he was overconfident)
If ace knew non-haki type attacks wouldn't hurt BB, (and it seems that you are saying Ace knew about haki being able to affect logias) then Ace knew of haki but wasn't able to use it himself... that would be kinda weird.
Not quite. Consider the countless people aware of Haoshoku Haki, but can't use it. Hell, I'm sure even Coby knew of Haki before he unlocked his. It would just mean Ace hadn't yet got to the point where he couldn't use it.
There are a few potential explanations for this:
1: Ace hit BB with a ranged attack, we haven't seen ranged attacks imbued with haki to my knowledge (If I am wrong, let me know). Therefore ace was saying a ranged attack shouldn't have hurt BB because it didn't have haki.
A character might have made note of it, as in other cases before coloring. We know Ace didn't do it because he described it as such himself.
3: Ace felt no reason to use haki here. His first attack was to test if BB was lying about being a logia and eating a DF. Once he realized he could hit him without haki he decided he didn't need it (maybe for stamina reasons or maybe because he was overconfident)
Not quite. Consider the countless people aware of Haoshoku Haki, but can't use it. Hell, I'm sure even Coby knew of Haki before he unlocked his. It would just mean Ace hadn't yet got to the point where he couldn't use it.
Zoro did it on a flying slash to cut Monet's cheek.
A character might have made note of it, as in other cases before coloring. We know Ace didn't do it because he described it as such himself.
Not all Logias can transform reflexively though. That would be a terrible way to test it because he attacked Teach while he was off-guard both times.
1: that's true
2:also true
3: I meant any attacks after the ones he commented on. Particularly dai enkai: entei. Would a person with a regular body really be able to tell they got hit by haki though?
4: I think the not being able to transform reflexively was a gag more than anything. I also only remember it happening once when luffy ran into ace and smoker.
