hiruzen is not the strongest hokage... proof

[oooog]

Urm he said Madara was PRAISED as the strongest in the world, not that he was... Madara said SOME CALLED HASHIRAMA the strongest

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Meaning there were people that considered hashirama the strongest ninja, and people who considered madara the strongest ninja..

Itachi nor obito said "everyone" considered x the strongest

I still don't see how these sources contradict what Itachi said....Are you insinuating there aren't ways to find out about the past? libraries? nothing? How did minato know madara could only maintain control of the fox for a few minutes? you're underestimating the intelligence of these characters..

Show me how madara contradicts itachi
show me how kabuto contradicts itachi

Your only scan is what obito says, and that's what you comprehend from the manga... that him saying his ms was flawless means he had ems.... Ems when being refereed to by itachi etc was said to be a entirely

I find it ironic that you are pointing out that SOME people called him the strongest shinobi when the page YOU posted clearly says PEOPLE CALLED HIM THE STRONGEST... you are accusing people of adding "ALL THE PEOPLE", to make him sound stronger, when you are adding words to make him sound weaker.

I'm not looking to argue or anything, that's just funny to me...

 

[Owarij]

And Manga said it can't?

Yes manga said it can't..

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If you read the manga you would know shadow clones distribute the chakra evenly, and not even the byakugan which has the best insight ability can tell the difference...

However in the anime, part 1, sasuke tells naruto he can see which one is real..

Though the fight happened in the manga , sasuke never such a thing .....



There are many other crap the anime puts in called FILLERS.. that are not in any way canon or associated with Kishi's manga

 

[Owarij]

I find it ironic that you are pointing out that SOME people called him the strongest shinobi when the page YOU posted clearly says PEOPLE CALLED HIM THE STRONGEST... you are accusing people of adding "ALL THE PEOPLE", to make him sound stronger, when you are adding words to make him sound weaker.

I'm not looking to argue or anything, that's just funny to me...

Ugh no, King hashirama or whoever it was insinuating that the world considered hashirama the strongest at that time.... though I paraphrased the scan , I meant to say that people doesn't necessarily mean everyone.. I used the binladen thing as an example... 3 individuals can be "people"

Itachi says madara was praised as the strongest and obito/madara said people called hashirama the strongest..
neither of these statements neccesarily account for the entire collective world of people

 

[Enton]

did hiruzen fans quit the manga when shippuden started?

 

[Unbiased]

1. Present proof where the anime creators say that. And i'll give my proof of something I said with applying common sense. But what are you trying to prove to me again?
2. All the clans combined = Hidden leaf. So they made hidden leaf.. aka they are from the hidden leaf.. Unless your saying Shikamaru was born outside the hidden leaf..
3. Monsterous strength.. which was in a databook. . Madara already said shes below Hashirama. Senju = Physical body... So again where does it say shes above him in even 1 category.





Kishimoto said its not?

And Manga said it can't?

1-

Spoiler

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I can keep going on and on as google has an endless supply of links. So present proof that kishimoto does not have time to add things in his own story.
2-The clans themselves came together and created the leaf. It doesn't mean that their Hidden jutsu's and KKG were able to be obtained as they're clan specific/genetic.
3-Another lie by you again as usual. They were gifted with life force and physical energy.

Spoiler

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Madara stated she could not use mokuton and didn't have medical abilities that compared to hashirama. Not that she was weaker physically then her. Looks like you lied again as usual gee what a surprise.

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[-Logic-]

did hiruzen fans quit the manga when shippuden started?

This.

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[Omnipotent]

Wait wait , I don't get your point

Hashirama is superior to Madara...yes? and ? everyone knows this

Madara and Dan aren't aware of any current day ninja, that statement is automatically invalid

I Don't even know what you're arguing



And your take on the situation is

Madara and izuna born into the uchiha clan , there is a unknown 3 tomoe leader

Madara and izuna both gain mangekyou sharingan, Still there is a unknown 3 tomoe leader

After a a long while , Madara eyes finnally goes blind..he takes izuna's eyes, ems- bam leader?


Though he was the strongest in the clan since he had normal mangekyou.. though he was the FIRST to ever unlock mangekyo.. he became the leader of a clan filled with 3tomoe uchihas at ems?

not buying it

Of course you don't get the point; you only took a part of the quote. The point was that Itachi is contradicted more than once and is thus an unreliable source and even though you say that Hashirama is never outright stated to be the greatest, not only does Madara himself outright say that Hashirama was in fact the greatest ninja of his time, he also says that Hashirama along with his clan were respected and feared as the best.

Well, what current-day ninja would stop Edo Madara while he's inside the head of his Perfect Susanoo without a good dosage of plot? The manga doesn't state that there are, whereas Edo Madara and Dan state only Hashirama can, which means that's what we have to go by.

Itachi and Shisui both had mangekyou sharingan; they weren't clan leader, now were they? Null point.

Hiruzen's once-existent superiority over Hashirama in part one has been retconned via various, more up-to-date Manga pages... from various powerful, reliable (yeah, fuck off Iruka, your opinion is worthless) and trust-worthy characters. It's so blatantly obvious, yet people will still argue otherwise.

^This

 

[Naruto king of Shinobi]

not even close..... sasuke killed oro oro killed hiruzen sasuke is way stronger than in beginning of part two and is more or less equal to naruto naruto may be a bit stronger but you get the point so next is oh yah and if naruto was stronger than sasuke who killed oro a long time ago and oro killed hiruzen so if hiruzen was as strong and hasirama naruto would be able to solo madara

You're all sorts of messed up, Hiruzen was old as hell fighting Orochimaru and the edo Hokages...Enma even said that Hiruzens performance was miserable compared to his prime. Prime Hiruzen > Orochimaru. Another thing, Sasuke himself admitted to only being able to 'kill' orochimaru because orochimaru was in a weakened state.

 

[Enton]

hashirama defeated perfect susanoo and kurama ffs.

 

[KingHashirama]

Yes manga said it can't..

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If you read the manga you would know shadow clones distribute the chakra evenly, and not even the byakugan which has the best insight ability can tell the difference...

However in the anime, part 1, sasuke tells naruto he can see which one is real..

Though the fight happened in the manga , sasuke never such a thing .....



There are many other crap the anime puts in called FILLERS.. that are not in any way canon or associated with Kishi's manga

Again, I thought we were talking about Sharingan. In the anime Byakugan can't see them either ;]. Sasuke didn't do such a thing in the manga.. Well in the manga lee didn't most of his movements he did in the anime. Doesn't mean they aren't canon. ;]. Again its Kishimoto's anime and Manga.. Kishimoto can't make animation or doesn't.. so he has people doing it for him. And those people need Kishimoto's "okay". Therefore you again are proven wrong.

1-

Spoiler

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I can keep going on and on as google has an endless supply of links. So present proof that kishimoto does not have time to add things in his own story.
2-The clans themselves came together and created the leaf. It doesn't mean that their Hidden jutsu's and KKG were able to be obtained as they're clan specific/genetic.
3-Another lie by you again as usual. They were gifted with life force and physical energy.

Spoiler

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1. None of them are Official websites created by the creators of anime and manga. AGAIN WHY ARE YOU MAKING MY STATEMENT I MADE FROM LOGICAL COMMON SENSE? why sir? Fillers are used to expand the universe of that specific series.. already proven by Bleach, DBZ, One piece, and Naruto.

2. OH MY GOD. ANY KKG IS THAT A SPECIFIC CLAN HAS IS PART OF THAT VILLAGE. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?! shit.

3. Thank you for using the image to prove my point 'Physical energy'.. Life force meaning chakra..

 

[Owarij]

Of course you don't get the point; you only took a part of the quote. The point was that Itachi is contradicted more than once and is thus an unreliable source and even though you say that Hashirama is never outright stated to be the greatest, not only does Madara himself outright say that Hashirama was in fact the greatest ninja of his time, he also says that Hashirama along with his clan were respected and feared as the best.

Well, what current-day ninja would stop Edo Madara while he's inside the head of his Perfect Susanoo without a good dosage of plot? The manga doesn't state that there are, whereas Edo Madara and Dan state only Hashirama can, which means that's what we have to go by.

Itachi and Shisui both had mangekyou sharingan; they weren't clan leader, now were they? Null point.

totally different circumstances.... Madara was the first uchiha to advance past the sharingan, and was the strongest in the clan and one of the strongest in the world when he got ms


I very well understand those scans.. but i don't understand how in the world they prove Itachi to be a unreliable source..
Madara may have outright said hashirama was the strongest ninja alive, but that isnt the issue..

Itachi said when madara got ms, he became leader
then when he got ems people "praised him as the strongest shinobi in the world"

How in the world does anything said by any other ninja contradict this? itachi is saying people praised him as the strongest... this does not mean he WAS the strongest or that was the opinion of EVERYONE..

Again, I thought we were talking about Sharingan. In the anime Byakugan can't see them either ;]. Sasuke didn't do such a thing in the manga.. Well in the manga lee didn't most of his movements he did in the anime. Doesn't mean they aren't canon. ;]. Again its Kishimoto's anime and Manga.. Kishimoto can't make animation or doesn't.. so he has people doing it for him. And those people need Kishimoto's "okay". Therefore you again are proven wrong.

What? the sharingan and byakugan can't tell the difference between shadow clones in the manga BECAUSE they distribute chakra evenly...

this is why kakashi can fool the likes of itachi and deva pein with his clone... because it seems just like the original...

A scene in the anime totally contradicted this....
Everything in the anime isn't canon.. only what was shown in the manga and reproduced exactly into the\ anime

 

[Unbiased]

Again, I thought we were talking about Sharingan. In the anime Byakugan can't see them either ;]. Sasuke didn't do such a thing in the manga.. Well in the manga lee didn't most of his movements he did in the anime. Doesn't mean they aren't canon. ;]. Again its Kishimoto's anime and Manga.. Kishimoto can't make animation or doesn't.. so he has people doing it for him. And those people need Kishimoto's "okay". Therefore you again are proven wrong.




1. None of them are Official websites created by the creators of anime and manga. AGAIN WHY ARE YOU MAKING MY STATEMENT I MADE FROM LOGICAL COMMON SENSE? why sir? Fillers are used to expand the universe of that specific series.. already proven by Bleach, DBZ, One piece, and Naruto.

2. OH MY GOD. ANY KKG IS THAT A SPECIFIC CLAN HAS IS PART OF THAT VILLAGE. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?! shit.

3. Sorry, they were gifted with the physical body of the Sage. Which includes life force.

1-If fillers are used to expand the manga then why are the filler specific characters not in the manga or databooks? Again please post proof stating that Kishimoto does not have time to add in things.

2-The KKG and hidden jutsu is apart of a clan. The village is not the clan but a mixture of them. It still doesn't mean those jutsu's are specific to the village.

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Here is choja stating that the clan mastered very rare is secret techniques. That is what a hidden technique is.

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3-Yet you still haven't posted a manga page stating that Hashirama had superior strength to tsunade.

 

[KingHashirama]

totally different circumstances.... Madara was the first uchiha to advance past the sharingan, and was the strongest in the clan and one of the strongest in the world when he got ms


I very well understand those scans.. but i don't understand how in the world they prove Itachi to be a unreliable source..
Madara may have outright said hashirama was the strongest ninja alive, but that isnt the issue..

Itachi said when madara got ms, he became leader
then when he got ems people "praised him as the strongest shinobi in the world"

How in the world does anything said by any other ninja contradict this? itachi is saying people praised him as the strongest... this does not mean he WAS the strongest or that was the opinion of EVERYONE..

Obito : Hashirama was the strongest ninja of his time.

Hashirama : I beat Kurama and Ems Madara so get off of my d!ck .

1-If fillers are used to expand the manga then why are the filler specific characters not in the manga or databooks? Again please post proof stating that Kishimoto does not have time to add in things.

2-The KKG and hidden jutsu is apart of a clan. The village is not the clan but a mixture of them. It still doesn't mean those jutsu's are specific to the village.

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Here is choja stating that the clan mastered very rare is secret techniques. That is what a hidden technique is.

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3-Yet you still haven't posted a manga page stating that Hashirama had superior strength to tsunade.

1. lets see some of the sevenswordmen were introduced in shippuden movie 3... came in the manga later on. Also, fillers are created after the manga ....

2. there is no "hidden jutsu" there is only "jutsu" . Again where does it say that they aren't part of the Hidden leaf's jutsus? please show me in those pictures..

3. And you haven't posted a manga page stating she was superior to Hashirama in strength.

 

[saar0507]

didnt expect so many comments LOL i will answear and try to help the conversetion as much as i can

 

[Unbiased]

Obito : Hashirama was the strongest ninja of his time.

Hashirama : I beat Kurama and Ems Madara so get off of my d!ck .



1. lets see some of the sevenswordmen were introduced in shippuden movie 3... came in the manga later on. Also, fillers are created after the manga ....

2. there is no "hidden jutsu" there is only "jutsu" . Again where does it say that they aren't part of the Hidden leaf's jutsus? please show me in those pictures..

3. And you haven't posted a manga page stating she was superior to Hashirama in strength.

1-We're talking about fillers not movies. Once again Please state where Kishimoto says he does not have time to add things into the story If you are unable to post scans the next time you post I will take it as you conceding as you haven't posted scans since you originally stated so.

2-

Spoiler

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Definition of arcane-Understood by few Secret. So please stop making up lies you can always turn over a new leaf.

3-I already did in our previous discussion several post ago. Please go back and look. Once again Please post manga pages stating hashirama is superior to tsunade in strength If you are unable to post scans the next time you post I will take it as you conceding as you haven't posted scans since you originally stated so.

 

[Omnipotent]

totally different circumstances.... Madara was the first uchiha to advance past the sharingan, and was the strongest in the clan and one of the strongest in the world when he got ms


I very well understand those scans.. but i don't understand how in the world they prove Itachi to be a unreliable source..
Madara may have outright said hashirama was the strongest ninja alive, but that isnt the issue..

Itachi said when madara got ms, he became leader
then when he got ems people "praised him as the strongest shinobi in the world"

How in the world does anything said by any other ninja contradict this? itachi is saying people praised him as the strongest... this does not mean he WAS the strongest or that was the opinion of EVERYONE..

What? the sharingan and byakugan can't tell the difference between shadow clones in the manga BECAUSE they distribute chakra evenly...

this is why kakashi can fool the likes of itachi and deva pein with his clone... because it seems just like the original...

A scene in the anime totally contradicted this....
Everything in the anime isn't canon.. only what was shown in the manga and reproduced exactly into the\ anime

Oh?

And at the time Shisui was the only one who was past the sharingan, the same thing goes for Itachi. Itachi, Shisui, Izuna and Madara were all hypothetically more powerful than the clan leader at the time, yet they weren't.

Itachi says otherwise than what Madara, the original source, says. Meaning that he's an unreliable source. He even told Sasuke that the Uchiha created the Police Force, but that was proven wrong too, wasn't it? Simple as that.

Point is nullified because Itachi is an unreliable source when it comes to Madara and the past of the Uchiha.

Obito (with Madara's inherited will) states that only after Madara received EMS, he became clan leader, and after he became clan leader, he found himself in fights with the Senju, and eventually had fights with Madara.

What you're saying just doesn't make sense, my friend. What you're saying is that even though EMS Madara with Kurama (and hypothetically Perfect Susanoo) lost to Hashirama so badly that everyone presumed he was dead, MS Madara alone would have survived countless fights with Hashirama. Cool story.

 

[Owarij]

Madara, the original source, says. Meaning that he's an unreliable source. He even told Sasuke that the Uchiha created the Police Force, but that was proven wrong too, wasn't it? Simple as that.

What did madara, the original source say that counters what itachi said?


Side note-
obito has madara's inherrited will in him? Could have sword it was black zetsu.. and that obito was made of half white..

Tobi is also a unreliable source, a person who has told so many lies in the manga.. even things like him giving nagato the rinnegan


Once again, I stated your thing makes no sense, because Madara was the FIRST to move beyond sharingan.. and would have been recognized for that..... there were many other ms users afterwards most likely.. so shishui and itachi having it wouldn't be something to put them in power..

Shishui was supposedly a member of root
and itachi was a kid , who's mission was to join anbu and be a pipeline....not become leader of the uchiha clan

 

[KingHashirama]

1-We're talking about fillers not movies. Once again Please state where Kishimoto says he does not have time to add things into the story If you are unable to post scans the next time you post I will take it as you conceding as you haven't posted scans since you originally stated so.

2-

Spoiler

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Definition of arcane-Understood by few Secret. So please stop making up lies you can always turn over a new leaf.

3-I already did in our previous discussion several post ago. Please go back and look. Once again Please post manga pages stating hashirama is superior to tsunade in strength If you are unable to post scans the next time you post I will take it as you conceding as you haven't posted scans since you originally stated so.

1. Movies are fillers.. Are they in the manga? no. they are part of the anime. Anything not in the manga but is in the anime is a filler.

2. arcane? don't know what that is.. But again please show me "hidden jutsus". For example, people say the "Hidden leaf's byakugan/sharingan"

3. Go check again you never posted anything where the words "hashirama" "strength" and "tsunade" are together.

1. I think you mean Gari and Pakura. And they had totally different Kekkei Genkai then. Completely different characters, I think Kishimoto just decided to put them in due to not having any ideas for random resurrected shinobi.

2. This may be what he's referring to:



It also says that the Yamanaka clan mastered hiden techniques, although their jutsu aren't hiden.

1. Thats your opinion though mate. And Edos don't have personalities they can show .

2. Most likely, but this guy is grabbing on to random crap. Even though hes already been proven wrong on many topics.

 

[Unbiased]

1. Movies are fillers.. Are they in the manga? no. they are part of the anime. Anything not in the manga but is in the anime is a filler.

2. arcane? don't know what that is.. But again please show me "hidden jutsus". For example, people say the "Hidden leaf's byakugan/sharingan"

3. Go check again you never posted anything where the words "hashirama" "strength" and "tsunade" are together.





1. Thats your opinion though mate. And Edos don't have personalities they can show .

2. Most likely, but this guy is grabbing on to random crap. Even though hes already been proven wrong on many topics.

1-You conceded by not posting scans.

2-Showed the databook page. You ignored it so you conceded.

3-You conceded by not posting scans.

 

[KingHashirama]

1-You conceded by not posting scans.

2-Showed the databook page. You ignored it so you conceded.

3-You conceded by not posting scans.

1. that made no sense. I already won the anime is canon long time ago.. which was my original argument.
2. Showed a databook page , yet you got 2 people saying they are not hidden "jutsus"
3. Right back at ya.