hiruzen is not the strongest hokage... proof

[Disquiet]

This is the whole point of what the posts have been arguing. Hiruzen was never legitimately labelled the strongest Hokage because the majority of people never took Hashirama's full strength into account. That's the point of Kabuto's statement. It compromises Iruka's words. It's just like saying Ronaldo is the best footballer in the world when you don't know anything about Messi. Even Tsunade lacked information regarding her grandfather. A fair, accurate and valid comparison by the masses could obviously not take place. Iruka's words cannot be absolute.

@Bold Again, this is an assumption. I understand the point you're trying to make, however, whether Hashirama's full strength was considered or not is unknown. The facts are, that people witnessed it to be able to tell it, (Mito most likely even witnessed the perfect susano'o) the facts are, that some people actually believed it, hell that majority could even be from outside the village. As it stands, we have people that witnessed and/or believed this power and didn't think it was anything God-tier.

You need to understand, that the line "many people didn't believe" doesn't makes Iruka's statement untrue in the least, simply because we don't know of the circumstances surrounding his title. It is assumption that the people that said Hiruzen is the stongest hokage didn't believe in Hashirama's power, is it not? That's the point.


Oh yeah, and the point you keep bringing up about Tsunade and being his granddaughter, and Gokage doesn't have any relevance at all since there's a minority (probably not even related to him lol) that believes in his power.

 

[Unbiased]

1. Copyright means Kishimoto "okays" them. Do you understand that? If you still don't want to count it as canon that is your choice and go take it with Kishimoto. But your on Naruto discussion not on Naruto Manga forum.
2. Never said it doesn't state that. But Mokuton, and other sharingan jutsus are Hidden leaf jutsus.
3. Go check the date. Susano'o was already revealed.



20 Elite ninjas > 2 edos who toyed you and a low kage level ninja

Never said it has nothing to do with all the time.. But its the samething as the SO6P. He had the rinnegan to control the Juubi.. Hashirama had mokuton to control the Bijuus. Creating mountain tier jutsus.... Sarutobi and other Hokages are not even close to that buddy.

Madara surpassed him by power , but as a ninja has he? He himself doesn't believe that. So who are we to say?



"called" < "Hailed"

Hailed as Best shinobi > Was called "God of shinobi".

Pain is the only true "GOD" in the series..."GOD" is a supreme being.. Sarutobi was just considered the god of humans.. Pain was GOD of everything.

And why are you bringing literal definitions into this?

Nagato was a shinobi who was called God.
Hiruzen was a shinobi who was hailed as God of Shinobi.

Once again you make up another lie stating hiruzen was called God of shinobi when he was hailed as the God of shinobi.

You must be registered for see images

 

[MrSimple]

20 Elite ninjas > 2 edos who toyed you and a low kage level ninja

Never said it has nothing to do with all the time.. But its the samething as the SO6P. He had the rinnegan to control the Juubi.. Hashirama had mokuton to control the Bijuus. Creating mountain tier jutsus.... Sarutobi and other Hokages are not even close to that buddy.

Madara surpassed him by power , but as a ninja has he? He himself doesn't believe that. So who are we to say?

You forgot the most important thing about Hashirama- he's dna. Also there's no need for Madara to believe that.

Hashirama was enough arrogant to not let anyone to study his secret jutsu, yes- the mokuton. And he's instant healing for which he lost me.

 

[KingHashirama]

1-He may okay it but if something is not in the manga it is not canon bottom line. Kishi okays the fillers but Guren isn't canon. Chikara isn't canon even though its okay'd. So please stop making up lies
2-No mokuton is hashirama's jutsu, sharingan is the uchiha's dojutsu. They aren't apart of the hidden leafs jutsus. Those are hidden jutsu's specific to ones clan. Once again you make up another lie
3-September 4th 2008 was when databook 3 was released. Susanoo was not apart of the manga yet. Case and point. Once again you make up another lie.

1. Canon is something that is created by the creators of Naruto-verse. Kishimoto cannot include everything in the Manga ok.

2. Senju and Uchiha MADE THE FREAKING HIDDEN LEAF. So those are included in the Hidde leaf jutsus.
3. Go check again, Susan'o was already revealed then.
- Chapter 392 : Susanoo Date : 3/06/2008

You forgot the most important thing about Hashirama- he's dna. Also there's no need for Madara to believe that.

Hashirama was enough arrogant to not let anyone to study his secret jutsu, yes- the mokuton. And he's instant healing for which he lost me.

Too bad Madara already believes that?. You have to defeat the person with your new power to prove that your now stronger then him. WE can't say hes stronger then the guy he lost to in the past , because we have not seen Hashirama's full powers.

Hashirama arrogant? if you say so. But your post is flawed in that statement.

Nagato was a shinobi who was called God.
Hiruzen was a shinobi who was hailed as God of Shinobi.

Once again you make up another lie stating hiruzen was called God of shinobi when he was hailed as the God of shinobi.

You must be registered for see images

Almighty God > God of shinobi

Supreme being God > Zeus the king of 'Gods'

And still the key word is "was". .

 

[Omnipotent]

You must be registered for see images

Dude, read this scan over..
It says that Madara and izuna both obtained Mangekyou, and with that power, they BOTH took control of the uchiha, But Madara became the LEADER..

according to your scans, It was when Madara became the leader , he was pitted against the senju clan and the senju leader many times...

Madara had ms when he became the leadder not ems


Why would you think it would be ems?

He was the FIRST person to unlock the plain mangekyou sharingan... ofc when he got ms he would become leader.. since everyone else had 3 tomoe..

Ems came AFTER

According to Itachi.

Also according to Itachi, Madara was the strongest shinobi in the world and Madara stole his eyes from Izuna:

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

Where did Itachi get this information from? Kabuto, Obito, and Madara himself state otherwise. Itachi is contradicted by Kabuto, Obito and Madara himself. Three sources (including the original) say that Itachi is an unreliable source.

Once again, when Madara and Izuna had MS, they were equals. However, with a "flawless mangekyou sharingan" (EMS) after Izuna's death, that was when he found himself pitted against the Senju, and eventually faced Hashirama:

You must be registered for see images

Anyways, EMS Madara and Hashirama fought a countless number of times:

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

Yet the last time they fought EMS Madara was supposed to have died:

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

Do you really think if EMS Madara with Kurama's assistance supposedly died against Hashirama, MS Madara with his deteriorating eyes would have a chance against Hashirama?

 

[Unbiased]

1. Canon is something that is created by the creators of Naruto-verse. Kishimoto cannot include everything in the Manga ok.

2. Senju and Uchiha MADE THE FREAKING HIDDEN LEAF. So those are included in the Hidde leaf jutsus.
3. Go check again, Susan'o was already revealed then.
- Chapter 392 : Susanoo Date : 3/06/2008

1-Where's your proof kishi can't add it all.
2-Those are clan specific jutsus doesn't matter if they made the leaf. It's still clan specific.

 

[Unbiased]

Nagato was never called "Almighty God" so please stop making things up. Furthermore Nagato was a shinobi but he wasn't the God of Shinobi. Therefore hiruzen's title is still superior.

 

[Slug Princess Tsunade]

This is not proof, this is bullshit. ( sorry )

 

[Owarij]

Urm he said Madara was PRAISED as the strongest in the world, not that he was... Madara said SOME CALLED HASHIRAMA the strongest

You must be registered for see images

Meaning there were people that considered hashirama the strongest ninja, and people who considered madara the strongest ninja..

Itachi nor obito said "everyone" considered x the strongest

Where did Itachi get this information from? Kabuto, Obito, and Madara himself state otherwise. Itachi is contradicted by Kabuto, Obito and Madara himself. Three sources (including the original) say that Itachi is an unreliable source.

I still don't see how these sources contradict what Itachi said....Are you insinuating there aren't ways to find out about the past? libraries? nothing? How did minato know madara could only maintain control of the fox for a few minutes? you're underestimating the intelligence of these characters..

Show me how madara contradicts itachi
show me how kabuto contradicts itachi

Your only scan is what obito says, and that's what you comprehend from the manga... that him saying his ms was flawless means he had ems.... Ems when being refereed to by itachi etc was said to be a entirely

 

[KingHashirama]

1-Where's your proof kishi can't add it all.
2-Those are clan specific jutsus doesn't matter if they made the leaf. It's still clan specific.

1. I like how you took that literal.. Kishimoto is focusing on the main storyline.. so you people and many other haters won't complain about him being side tracked. Also, again I win this argument i suppose

2. Any clan who is in the leaf village uses the leaf village jutsus.

Urm he said Madara was PRAISED as the strongest in the world, not that he was... Madara said SOME CALLED HASHIRAMA the strongest

You must be registered for see images

Meaning there were people that considered hashirama the strongest ninja, and people who considered madara the strongest ninja..

Itachi nor obito said "everyone" considered x the strongest

Please show me the 'Some' in the manga page.. Cause all i see is "People CALLED him the strongest shinobi". Doesn't see 'some'.

 

[Unbiased]

1. I like how you took that literal.. Kishimoto is focusing on the main storyline.. so you people and many other haters won't complain about him being side tracked. Also, again I win this argument i suppose

2. Any clan who is in the leaf village uses the leaf village jutsus.



Please show me the 'Some' in the manga page.. Cause all i see is "People CALLED him the strongest shinobi". Doesn't see 'some'.

1-Proof please like I asked. You said kishi doesn't have time to add in information to the main story line so please present proof.
2-No any clan in the leaf village uses their own specific clan jutsu. For example Nara clan uses the shadow binding technique. Its a clan specific technique. Just like hyuuga's techniques are clan specific.
3-I'm still waiting for the scan that states Hashirama was physically stronger then Tsunade. You stated he was but haven't presented proof so please present proof.

 

[Owarij]

1. I like how you took that literal.. Kishimoto is focusing on the main storyline.. so you people and many other haters won't complain about him being side tracked. Also, again I win this argument i suppose

2. Any clan who is in the leaf village uses the leaf village jutsus.



Please show me the 'Some' in the manga page.. Cause all i see is "People CALLED him the strongest shinobi". Doesn't see 'some'.

You do realize people doesn't necessarily mean everyone right?

People think Bin laden is still alive

.....

 

[KingHashirama]

1-Proof please like I asked. You said kishi doesn't have time to add in information to the main story line so please present proof.
2-No any clan in the leaf village uses their own specific clan jutsu. For example Nara clan uses the shadow binding technique. Its a clan specific technique. Just like hyuuga's techniques are clan specific.
3-I'm still waiting for the scan that states Hashirama was physically stronger then Tsunade. You stated he was but haven't presented proof so please present proof.

1. That was common sense. I like how you lost your point in Anime being canon. So anime is canon now. And now you drag on to a subject that requires common sense. And the reason why fillers are made.
2. If your clan is from the hidden leaf.. then your clan's jutsu is the hidden leaf's. sharinga, Mokuto, Byakugan all are Hidden Leaf.

3. I'm still waiting on your scan where it says Tsunade was superior to Hashirama in strength. I have a scan waiting that says none of her jutsus compare to Hashirama's ;]

You do realize people doesn't necessarily mean everyone right?

People think Bin laden is still alive

.....

"Hailed" is the samething as people calling him the "God of shinobi".. Too bad a elit jonin level ninja didn't think he was 'GOD' enough to take on the Legend Uchiha Madara ;].

But again twisting words aye ;].

 

[Unbiased]

1. That was common sense. I like how you lost your point in Anime being canon. So anime is canon now. And now you drag on to a subject that requires common sense. And the reason why fillers are made.
2. If your clan is from the hidden leaf.. then your clan's jutsu is the hidden leaf's. sharinga, Mokuto, Byakugan all are Hidden Leaf.

3. I'm still waiting on your scan where it says Tsunade was superior to Hashirama in strength. I have a scan waiting that says none of her jutsus compare to Hashirama's ;]




"Hailed" is the samething as people calling him the "God of shinobi".. Too bad a elit jonin level ninja didn't think he was 'GOD' enough to take on the Legend Uchiha Madara ;].

But again twisting words aye ;].

1-Fillers are made so the anime doesn't catch up. Everyone knows that. Please Present proof that he doesn't have time to add in information
2-None of the clans are from the hidden leaf since they created it.
3-I already posted it prior stating she had monstrous strength and hashirama does not. Please answer the question Where is the scan stating he had monstrous strength.
3-

 

[Owarij]

KingHashirama thinks everything in the anime is canon -_-
So sharingan can see through shadow clones
nice

 

[Omnipotent]

Urm he said Madara was PRAISED as the strongest in the world, not that he was... Madara said SOME CALLED HASHIRAMA the strongest

You must be registered for see images

Meaning there were people that considered hashirama the strongest ninja, and people who considered madara the strongest ninja..

Itachi nor obito said "everyone" considered x the strongest

I still don't see how these sources contradict what Itachi said....Are you insinuating there aren't ways to find out about the past? libraries? nothing? How did minato know madara could only maintain control of the fox for a few minutes? you're underestimating the intelligence of these characters..

Show me how madara contradicts itachi
show me how kabuto contradicts itachi

Your only scan is what obito says, and that's what you comprehend from the manga... that him saying his ms was flawless means he had ems.... Ems when being refereed to by itachi etc was said to be a entirely

No thank you. You're choosing to only read one manga scan closely and then respond to that so it appears that I have to reuse a few:

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

Hashirama stated outright to be the greatest ninja of his time. I do believe EMS Madara was of his time.
Hashirama and his clan respected and feared by every other shinobi clan as the best.

Madara states that Hashirama is the only one that can stop him. So does Dan.
Kabuto states that Hashirama is superior to Madara.

Once again, if EMS Madara + Kurama against Hashirama left EMS Madara on life-support for the rest of his days and Kurama sealed up to now, do you really think that MS Madara alone with his deteriorating eyes would have stood a chance against Hashirama? Or are you saying Hashirama didn't try?

 

[KingHashirama]

1-Fillers are made so the anime doesn't catch up. Everyone knows that. Please Present proof that he doesn't have time to add in information
2-None of the clans are from the hidden leaf since they created it.
3-I already posted it prior stating she had monstrous strength and hashirama does not. Please answer the question Where is the scan stating he had monstrous strength.
3-

1. Present proof where the anime creators say that. And i'll give my proof of something I said with applying common sense. But what are you trying to prove to me again?
2. All the clans combined = Hidden leaf. So they made hidden leaf.. aka they are from the hidden leaf.. Unless your saying Shikamaru was born outside the hidden leaf..
3. Monsterous strength.. which was in a databook. . Madara already said shes below Hashirama. Senju = Physical body... So again where does it say shes above him in even 1 category.

KingHashirama thinks everything in the anime is canon -_-
So sharingan can see through shadow clones
nice

Kishimoto said its not?

And Manga said it can't?

 

[-Logic-]

Hiruzen's once-existent superiority over Hashirama in part one has been retconned via various, more up-to-date Manga pages... from various powerful, reliable (yeah, fuck off Iruka, your opinion is worthless) and trust-worthy characters. It's so blatantly obvious, yet people will still argue otherwise.

 

[Owarij]

Hashirama stated outright to be the greatest ninja of his time. I do believe EMS Madara was of his time.
Hashirama and his clan respected and feared by every other shinobi clan as the best.

Madara states that Hashirama is the only one that can stop him. So does Dan.
Kabuto states that Hashirama is superior to Madara.

Wait wait , I don't get your point

Hashirama is superior to Madara...yes? and ? everyone knows this

Madara and Dan aren't aware of any current day ninja, that statement is automatically invalid

I Don't even know what you're arguing

Do you really think if EMS Madara with Kurama's assistance supposedly died against Hashirama, MS Madara with his deteriorating eyes would have a chance against Hashirama?

And your take on the situation is

Madara and izuna born into the uchiha clan , there is a unknown 3 tomoe leader

Madara and izuna both gain mangekyou sharingan, Still there is a unknown 3 tomoe leader

After a a long while , Madara eyes finnally goes blind..he takes izuna's eyes, ems- bam leader?


Though he was the strongest in the clan since he had normal mangekyou.. though he was the FIRST to ever unlock mangekyo.. he became the leader of a clan filled with 3tomoe uchihas at ems?

not buying it

 

[-immortal-]

According to Itachi.

Also according to Itachi, Madara was the strongest shinobi in the world and Madara stole his eyes from Izuna:

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

Where did Itachi get this information from? Kabuto, Obito, and Madara himself state otherwise. Itachi is contradicted by Kabuto, Obito and Madara himself. Three sources (including the original) say that Itachi is an unreliable source.

Once again, when Madara and Izuna had MS, they were equals. However, with a "flawless mangekyou sharingan" (EMS) after Izuna's death, that was when he found himself pitted against the Senju, and eventually faced Hashirama:

You must be registered for see images

Anyways, EMS Madara and Hashirama fought a countless number of times:

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

Yet the last time they fought EMS Madara was supposed to have died:

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

Do you really think if EMS Madara with Kurama's assistance supposedly died against Hashirama, MS Madara with his deteriorating eyes would have a chance against Hashirama?

images vs images FTW