This is the 3rd installment in the pitting Kages against eachother this is a thread an exception to pitting a relatively unknown Kage against a very known one as both Tsuchikages we have info on are very known by most of the NB members.
This is a thread showing why the Second Tsuchikage is arguably stronger than the Fourth Hokage.
Mu was able to kill the Second Mizukage (arguably the greatest Mizukage in history) which is a massive feat and so can rival Minato in the amount of hype he has
Why the Second Tsuchikage would win against the Fourth Hokage?
1) Elemental Versatility and Infinite Battle Tactics
Due to the Second Tsuchikage possessing several elemental affinities, he is able to use them to their utmost effectiveness rather than simply using it because of the lack of choices available to them. Long range Katon (Fire) techniques allow the Second Tsuchikage to use super heated balls of flames in volleys from a distance to overwhelm the Fourth Hokage from the skies. The Second Tsuchikage can also use his wind techniques from medium range (just out of range, of the Flying Thunder God Technique) to blow away Minato in his attempts to close the gap.
At close range he can use Earth Techniques for close combat, strength boosting techniques and etc. Earth's versatility as a element allows it to be used both offensively and defensively which gives him the ability to quickly adapt to quick paced close combat.
His three natural affinities also allow him to have the elemental advantage over the Wind Element (his fire overwhelms it), his water element (his Earth element dissipates it), his Earth element protects against the wind element
and his Wind element is a natural insulator which is strong against Lightning.
2) Range of the Battle
The Second Tsuchikage's ability to fly can be used to gain a distance advantage over the Fourth Hokage as he specializes in close combat (Taijutsu, Rasengan, FTG Technique) which are all rendered useless at that range. He can also take advantage of the range by using long range volleys of Katon (Fire) techniques and maybe Fuuton (Wind) techniques to be used as a alternative.
3) Ability to Warp the Terrain
Mu could use his Dust Release to devastate the landscape from above leaving many craters in the ground causing trouble for Minato to more around effectively. This could hamper his efforts in dodging volleys of Katon attacks from the Second Tsuchikage. Large Scale Earth techniques can also be used in conjunction with the half destructed landscape to trap/crush Minato and warp the terrain to intercept Minato's movements with Earth technique related traps.
4) Ability to Evade and React to Flying Thunder God Technique
Furthermore, when these detection capabilities are employed in conjunction with his quick reflexes, he can avoid techniques that even other Kage find difficult to evade, as demonstrated when only he instinctively managed to elude the clutches of Gaara's sand hands and avoid Naruto's attack from behind.
The Second Tsuchikage's Elemental Advantage with Dust Release (his Kekkei Tota) and his Elemental affinities
Strengthened by Wind techniques as his Katon (fire) techniques are powered up by increasing their speed and primarily the air feeding the flames.
Immunity to Water techniques as Muu's Earth Affinity has a elemental advantage over water and could be used defensively as a massive wall to because dissipate the force of water rendering the technique less effective.
Immunity to Earth Techniques as the only solid structure element it is at the mercy of Dust release as it is physically able to be disintegrated at a molecular level.
Immunity to lightning techniques as his wind release acts as a natural insulator which stops the Lightning traveling very far and making it impossible to hit Muu unless used a very close range.
Immunity to all physical elements and pseudo elements e.g. Sand and Mud as they like Earth can be physical disintegrated.
If you check the above spoiler tag you will see that whatever element(s) Minato may possess would easily be countered by Mu's Jinton or natural elemental affinities (except if had the fire element). Even then his own Fire element fuelled by that of his wind element would easily overwhelm any fire element attacks possessed by Minato.
Alternative Arguements on why Minato could win
Other Tactics that could be used by Mu
The Second Tsuchikage can use a combination of his two abilities, splitting and becoming invisible as a last resort attack. It can only be used in the event of Minato landing a successful hit which would do deadly damage.
First he could split and make a duplicate after a potentially lethal subsequently reducing his attack power by half.
Then use his absolute invisibility, to remove all traces of the 2nd body which he now inhabits, to let Minato get his guard down as he would think the battle just ended.
Finally, the Second Tsuchikage has a chance at a devastating sneak attack against Minato which could even out the levels of damage done to each party or even be potentially lethal.
What do you guys think who would win, the Second Tsuchikage or the Fourth Hokage?
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now coming to the topic,i think muu wins this high difficulty.
the reason is obvious and something that others have mentioned in this thread already.muu has versatility going for him.the fact that he can become invisible and that he can fly,means he can fight on a long range and close range basis,and that will give minato huge amounts of problems.
not to mention dust release,splitting ability,and the various other elements he can use in battle like earth release,fire release and wind release.
while on the other hand,minato's intelligence and speed are the only two factors that can inflict any damage upon muu.
and it will depend a lot on how minato plans this battle out.if he can somehow find a way to disable muu from using his op techniques like dust release,splitting abilty,invisibilty against him,and also find a way to fight him constantly on a close range basis,he might have a chance.but i find that very unlikely.
Well done on the presentation, and I agree with you. A lot of people have been mentioning that minato would have the speed advantage, but couldn't Mu just create a closed area, so then he couldn't run out? However, minato is known for his intelligence, so it could be a challenge getting him in there. Pretty much, it's very much possible, but it's far from a cakewalk.
I am not sure about this....As much as I love both Tsuchikages...I think that minato would still win....with very high difficulty.....The reason for this is his space time barrier....I mean he sucked the whole beast bomb from kurama and teleported it....that is one of the best defensive moves ever....And it can be an attack also.....like if he marked Mu...he could have teleported his own dust element technique on Mu...First suck it and then just BOOOM......however....IF he marked him....which is almost impossible when Mu makes himself invisible...only a sharingan or byakugan would be able to see him....that is why I am not sure...
Your thread is nice with alot of detailed information and battle-strategy. However it doesn't take much tactics for Muu to win. Let's say they are 5 kilometers away from eachother:
Muu can sense Minato while Minato can't sense Muu. Muu turns invisible and casually walks/runs/jumps to Minato's location. When he is within sight he sneaks up on him (Minato) and cuts his throat. Easy win for Muu (This method would work against almost all characters)
What u guys have done this?
don't u know minato is also the greatest hokage is the history?
I think he is the greatest kage...........!
It will take him mostly 1 minute to make Mu defeated...............
I am not sure about this....As much as I love both Tsuchikages...I think that minato would still win....with very high difficulty.....The reason for this is his space time barrier....I mean he sucked the whole beast bomb from kurama and teleported it....that is one of the best defensive moves ever....And it can be an attack also.....like if he marked Mu...he could have teleported his own dust element technique on Mu...First suck it and then just BOOOM......however....IF he marked him....which is almost impossible when Mu makes himself invisible...only a sharingan or byakugan would be able to see him....that is why I am not sure...
True, i honestly believe the battle could go either way but im slightly biased towards Muu as its pretty hard not to be on one side or another in threads like this, however i still believe whoever wins it would be very high difficulty and very dependent on many tactics.
We have info on like 3 of his moves and he'll probably never use one of those 3.He has a clear disadvantage in this "Discussion". It's like pitting itachi against someone with restricting Susanoo, amaterasu and Tsukuyomi. Minato's strongest moves have never been revealed.
that sasuke back at his{ oro base] probably would have lost to an orochimaru with arms. but at the same time it seems like orochimaru is a sucker for sharagin genjutsu...
remember? how itachi owned orochimaru with his genjutsu? they say that sasuke's genjutsu surpasses itachi now.
so if sasuke was on par with itachi or better at genjutsu when he kick a armless/jutsuless orochimaru. ...
Great thread. The Second Tsuchikage is a force to be reckoned with, since he has probably the best set of skills out of anyone in the entire series. The Fourth Hokage, when looked at through stats and feats, looks as though he does not stand a chance against him. Minato has been able to pull some pretty amazing things against foes that were probably much more stronger than him to begin with (i.e Tobi and A/Killer Bee). So even though he is quite easily outmatched from surface strength, his intellect is pretty killer when combined with his techniques.
My personal verdict has to go with Muu, simply because even with a strategic plan in mind Minato is not going to match up that well. FTG will not allow him to reach Muu while he is flying or invisible, meaning that Muu could end this in one hit if he battled right. Jinton is pretty much a devastating jutsu against Minato since he will not be able to escape the range of the blast radius. The only way he could would be a FTG Seal on the outside perimeter of the Jinton blast but the odds of having that placed beforehand are slim. Even with that, Jinton could possibly expand to a very wide range that is unlimited in the sense of the user.
Also, Muu has mastery over the three elements that compose Jinton. Fire, Earth and Wind. This must also mean that there are an arsenal of terrifying Elemental Jutsu just waiting to incapacitate Minato. Armed with only a Rasengan and limited movement with his FTG against this nearly intangible ninja, Minato will most likely be outmatched by him.
This is the 3rd installment in the pitting Kages against eachother this is a thread an exception to pitting a relatively unknown Kage against a very known one as both Tsuchikages we have info on are very known by most of the NB members.
This is a thread showing why the Second Tsuchikage is arguably stronger than the Fourth Hokage.
Mu was able to kill the Second Mizukage (arguably the greatest Mizukage in history) which is a massive feat and so can rival Minato in the amount of hype he has
Why the Second Tsuchikage would win against the Fourth Hokage?
1) Elemental Versatility and Infinite Battle Tactics
Due to the Second Tsuchikage possessing several elemental affinities, he is able to use them to their utmost effectiveness rather than simply using it because of the lack of choices available to them. Long range Katon (Fire) techniques allow the Second Tsuchikage to use super heated balls of flames in volleys from a distance to overwhelm the Fourth Hokage from the skies. The Second Tsuchikage can also use his wind techniques from medium range (just out of range, of the Flying Thunder God Technique) to blow away Minato in his attempts to close the gap.
At close range he can use Earth Techniques for close combat, strength boosting techniques and etc. Earth's versatility as a element allows it to be used both offensively and defensively which gives him the ability to quickly adapt to quick paced close combat.
His three natural affinities also allow him to have the elemental advantage over the Wind Element (his fire overwhelms it), his water element (his Earth element dissipates it), his Earth element protects against the wind element
and his Wind element is a natural insulator which is strong against Lightning.
2) Range of the Battle
The Second Tsuchikage's ability to fly can be used to gain a distance advantage over the Fourth Hokage as he specializes in close combat (Taijutsu, Rasengan, FTG Technique) which are all rendered useless at that range. He can also take advantage of the range by using long range volleys of Katon (Fire) techniques and maybe Fuuton (Wind) techniques to be used as a alternative.
3) Ability to Warp the Terrain
Mu could use his Dust Release to devastate the landscape from above leaving many craters in the ground causing trouble for Minato to more around effectively. This could hamper his efforts in dodging volleys of Katon attacks from the Second Tsuchikage. Large Scale Earth techniques can also be used in conjunction with the half destructed landscape to trap/crush Minato and warp the terrain to intercept Minato's movements with Earth technique related traps.
4) Ability to Evade and React to Flying Thunder God Technique
Furthermore, when these detection capabilities are employed in conjunction with his quick reflexes, he can avoid techniques that even other Kage find difficult to evade, as demonstrated when only he instinctively managed to elude the clutches of Gaara's sand hands and avoid Naruto's attack from behind.
The Second Tsuchikage's Elemental Advantage with Dust Release (his Kekkei Tota) and his Elemental affinities
Strengthened by Wind techniques as his Katon (fire) techniques are powered up by increasing their speed and primarily the air feeding the flames.
Immunity to Water techniques as Muu's Earth Affinity has a elemental advantage over water and could be used defensively as a massive wall to because dissipate the force of water rendering the technique less effective.
Immunity to Earth Techniques as the only solid structure element it is at the mercy of Dust release as it is physically able to be disintegrated at a molecular level.
Immunity to lightning techniques as his wind release acts as a natural insulator which stops the Lightning traveling very far and making it impossible to hit Muu unless used a very close range.
Immunity to all physical elements and pseudo elements e.g. Sand and Mud as they like Earth can be physical disintegrated.
If you check the above spoiler tag you will see that whatever element(s) Minato may possess would easily be countered by Mu's Jinton or natural elemental affinities (except if had the fire element). Even then his own Fire element fuelled by that of his wind element would easily overwhelm any fire element attacks possessed by Minato.
Alternative Arguements on why Minato could win
Other Tactics that could be used by Mu
The Second Tsuchikage can use a combination of his two abilities, splitting and becoming invisible as a last resort attack. It can only be used in the event of Minato landing a successful hit which would do deadly damage.
First he could split and make a duplicate after a potentially lethal subsequently reducing his attack power by half.
Then use his absolute invisibility, to remove all traces of the 2nd body which he now inhabits, to let Minato get his guard down as he would think the battle just ended.
Finally, the Second Tsuchikage has a chance at a devastating sneak attack against Minato which could even out the levels of damage done to each party or even be potentially lethal.
What do you guys think who would win, the Second Tsuchikage or the Fourth Hokage?
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Proof that the Second Mizukage > The Second Hokage -
+ rep for the effort and a good thread indeed but I can't agree with your reasons. Here's why:
1. Elemental Versatility and Infinite Battle Tactics
you mentioned that the Second Tsuchikage possessed several elemental affinities and he is able to use them to their utmost effectiveness but you fail to mention that Minato has elemental affinities too. It was mentioned by kakashi that jonins usually have at least 2 elements. These elements are still unknown but he definitely had elemental affinities.
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You also have to consider that Minato has the contract with the toads. It was not a contract with gamabunta but rather with the species in Mount Myōboku. He can summon the inhabitants in Mount Myōboku because he has a contract with them
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Since you are talking about elements, Minato can summon Fukasaku and Shima which are both sage toads and can use senjutsu plus their own elemental affinities. They are also capable of doing sound genjutsu.
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Not only are they able to use genjutsu but Shima, one of the sage toad can use Fighting Tongue Bind which can sense enemies even if it's invisible thus nullifying Mu's invisibility.
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And once they found where the enemy is, Fukasaku can use his Fighting Tongue Slash
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Now that you know what these toads can do, you might ask how can they activate those techniques if Mu keeps on attacking them. Simple....Minato can create a barrier that can possibly hold a full powered Kurama and not to mention that he can also use space time barrier.
Minato here is planning to create a barrier that can hold Kurama
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Or he can use this
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Take note that Mu can only attack if he's not in invisible mode. Minato's reflexes is second to none as demonstrated with his fight with Tobi and A
Tobi tried a sneak attack and tried to warp Minato
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Against A
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Is Mu's attack faster than A's speed or Tobi's warping tech? I don't think so.
Your number 2 reason which is Range of the Battle can be nullified by the use of Gamabunta. His attack can also covered great distance and he can jump high.
Your number 3 reason which is Ability to Warp the Terrain can be nullified by space time barrier and Mu's attack can be redirected to him thus wasting his chakra on a certain attack
Your number 4 reason is not true. FTG is instant. No speed involve. He can't react to something not involving speed. Even Tobi failed to evade Minato's rasengan. Naruto was able to hit Mu with a rasengan and Minato's FTG is faster than that.
By the way, take note that I'm not listing what Gamabunta can do and the other summons that Minato can use with his contract with the toads. One useful example is the summoning tech: Toad Mouth Bind. This is a summon of the organ (eso****us) of a great, fire-breathing toad from Mount Myōboku. This is a summon so Minato can use it because of his contract with the toad.
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Scenario favoring Mu: Let's see if it really favors him.
Let's say that Mu is up there where Minato can't hit him. Since he needs to turn visible to use his powerful attack, Minato was able to see him. What do you think Minato will do to reach him?
Minato can use the Food Cart Destroyer. The summon can be performed in an instant right above the target. No matter how high in the sky Mu is performing the attack, Food Cart Destroyer will definitely fall right above him as shown here:
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Please take a good look of Minato's position at the scan above. he was far from kurama yet he landed above him. There are lot of other techs which I can include favoring Minato in every battle but I guess those mentioned above are enough to defeat Mu.
Conclusion: Mu's attack can't penetrate space time barrier and it will be redirected back to him. He also needs to be visible to perform the attack thus giving Minato a chance to perform his jutsu.
Hey, Minato doesn't rely on those kunai as much as you think. Onces muu is Mark there is really no need for those kunai not to mention Minato base speed is fast enough to catch a baby Naruto from getting slash by Tobi....what makes you think Muu is going to be fast enough?. Muu can't even hold his own against Madara.
Hiraishin no Jutsu(FTG) is a ninjutsu technique utilized by the Fourth Hokage. The technique gave Yondaime his nickname "Konoha's Yellow Flash," due to his bright yellow hair and his ability to traverse great distances in the blink of an eye. A space-time jutsu like Kuchiyose, Yondaime first needs to mark his destination with a shiki (rite) first, he can then activate the jutsu to come to the mark. He can apply this to a weapon such as a kunai, and when thrown or used, he can instantly travel to it. He can also apply the mark to a touched area, such as his opponent or some other surrounding feature. No matter where the opponent goes, Yondaime can travel to the mark to kill them. He can also put his finger on the ground and detect any enemy, so the invincibly would be useless. The thing most of you don't understand is, this guy is also a sensor type as well as gifted genius. I'm sorry these things that were listed in the fight is not how the battle would scale out. ( fighting Minato is like fighting Tobi)
The first eye contact, that bitch would be dead. (instantly)
Hey, Minato doesn't rely on those kunai as much as you think. Onces muu is Mark there is really no need for those kunai not to mention Minato base speed is fast enough to catch a baby Naruto from getting slash by Tobi....what makes you think Muu is going to be fast enough?. Muu can't even hold his own against Madara.
Honestly I don't think Minato would need up to 5 minutes to wrap this fight up, call me a fan boy, biased, stupid, ignorant, whatever. This is what I truly believe, Minato's intelligence is what will decide this fight, Mu won't land one hit/jutsu on the guy I'm afraid.
All of the techniques & stats listed for the 2nd Tsuchikage sound.... How can I say "Ok." I understand how some might think that the 2nd Tsuchikage would win against Yondaime, all based on stats & technique. Stats & technique don't decide a fight or battle. I believe that "Will" plays just as important a role as stats & tech. For Yondaime's age he was very talented & skillful. I believe with more time this thread would have served no purpose but to point out that the 2nd Tsuchikage doesn't stand a chance. Yondaime took on Tobi & Kurama, while trying to protect his family. I don't know all of the skills off the top of my head, but I do know there is nothing greater than a parents love for their child(family). With one exception to Itachi, because he was Sasukes bro. So with all that skill, if someone is fighting for a greater purpose... You get what I'm saying. I'm tired of typing. Btw, pretty good thread.
