Kid Madara with both MS vs Kid Obito with both MS

[InfiniteMugen]

Not really, this is a “what if” scenario so whether Madara had a MS as a kid or not is irrelevant. This scenario is no different from the “Rinnegan Madara (revived) vs Nagato” scenarios, which are impossible because they both can’t have the Rinnegan at the same time. All we do is take note of the respective feats performed by both characters when they were kids, add their respective MS to them, and see which one would win. But if we just ruled out intelligence and turned it into a battle of MS techniques, then it would be a nerfed Kamui vs Susano’o. I still say Madara wins because he was killing skilled Senju adults prior to obtaining his sharingan while kid Obito was pathetic, at best.

It’s not really a nerfed kamui tho, he’s got his ms. Going by kid feats, madara has an edge, how much we don’t know. Mainly for the fact that we KNOW madara we able to kill capable adult senju at the time. We also KNOW that obito went from getting ranked on by a “talentless” dude in his own rank, to being able to fight an adult jonin with a simple 1t(maybe 2? I don’t recall atm) sharingan awakening. He pretty much went from fighting like a cloneless kid naruto to a kid sasuke just awakening his sharingan. Obviously this doesn’t put obito on madaras level as madara was already an adept combatant regardless.

This also leads us to the small deal of the adult senjus. The highest level these guys could more than likely be are jonin. We gotta assume botsuma and uh... tajima? Where the strongest at the time, and tajima has no ms, and botsuma had nothing close to either of his sons power(that we know of) so realistically... how bad ass where these adults?

This leaves us with madara as the better actual fighter, and obito with the better jutsu. Obviously as kids madara can’t spam susanoo and obito can’t spam a full on kamui, but for the sake of the thread they have to be able to do both. With intel madara CAN take it. But shit, can he pull out susanoo before a snipe? Can he close in to disorient obito out of using it? I’d take the latter more then the former, but missing a snipe close range could still leave a piece of madara warped. Granted madara can pull out a susanoo arm and obito could shit his pants, but with intel of his own ability, why not go for the snipe? The snipe is nasty, the eyes where seperated for the whole series for a reason(jk, but still, it minus well have been).
Without intel it’s a wash, madara does his cocky #1 uchiha thing, obitos over eager beaver ass would probably snipe off the bat

 

[Animegoin]

It’s not really a nerfed kamui tho, he’s got his ms. Going by kid feats, madara has an edge, how much we don’t know. Mainly for the fact that we KNOW madara we able to kill capable adult senju at the time. We also KNOW that obito went from getting ranked on by a “talentless” dude in his own rank, to being able to fight an adult jonin with a simple 1t(maybe 2? I don’t recall atm) sharingan awakening. He pretty much went from fighting like a cloneless kid naruto to a kid sasuke just awakening his sharingan. Obviously this doesn’t put obito on madaras level as madara was already an adept combatant regardless.

This also leads us to the small deal of the adult senjus. The highest level these guys could more than likely be are jonin. We gotta assume botsuma and uh... tajima? Where the strongest at the time, and tajima has no ms, and botsuma had nothing close to either of his sons power(that we know of) so realistically... how bad ass where these adults?

This leaves us with madara as the better actual fighter, and obito with the better jutsu. Obviously as kids madara can’t spam susanoo and obito can’t spam a full on kamui, but for the sake of the thread they have to be able to do both. With intel madara CAN take it. But shit, can he pull out susanoo before a snipe? Can he close in to disorient obito out of using it? I’d take the latter more then the former, but missing a snipe close range could still leave a piece of madara warped. Granted madara can pull out a susanoo arm and obito could shit his pants, but with intel of his own ability, why not go for the snipe? The snipe is nasty, the eyes where seperated for the whole series for a reason(jk, but still, it minus well have been).
Without intel it’s a wash, madara does his cocky #1 uchiha thing, obitos over eager beaver ass would probably snipe off the bat

I edited my comment btw

 

[InfiniteMugen]

I edited my comment btw

What does his modifications have to do with how kamui works? We know how the snipe works sans mods via war arc kakashi, and that’s a slower version. He can’t spam it, and maybe the range is down? This doesn’t really change the opness of it in this particular fight. This is kid obito pre death with a dual kamui. Fortunately we DO have some basis on how at least the snipe works without a body mod. Obitos after effects would just be similar to itachis and sasukes(and kakashis to a lesser extent). Some eye pain/fatigue and bleeding. The same happens to mads tho too if he pulls out susanoo too much. Even just giving him one phase and one snipe would be enough

 

[salamander uchiha]

What does his modifications have to do with how kamui works? We know how the snipe works sans mods via war arc kakashi, and that’s a slower version. He can’t spam it, and maybe the range is down? This doesn’t really change the opness of it in this particular fight. This is kid obito pre death with a dual kamui. Fortunately we DO have some basis on how at least the snipe works without a body mod. Obitos after effects would just be similar to itachis and sasukes(and kakashis to a lesser extent). Some eye pain/fatigue and bleeding. The same happens to mads tho too if he pulls out susanoo too much. Even just giving him one phase and one snipe would be enough

Maybe but teen Obito's pre death stamina is 2.5(below Sasuke's and his intwligence is 1 according to the databook stats. How would you factor that into your calculations.

 

[Animegoin]

What does his modifications have to do with how kamui works? We know how the snipe works sans mods via war arc kakashi, and that’s a slower version. He can’t spam it, and maybe the range is down? This doesn’t really change the opness of it in this particular fight. This is kid obito pre death with a dual kamui. Fortunately we DO have some basis on how at least the snipe works without a body mod. Obitos after effects would just be similar to itachis and sasukes(and kakashis to a lesser extent). Some eye pain/fatigue and bleeding. The same happens to mads tho too if he pulls out susanoo too much. Even just giving him one phase and one snipe would be enough

It’s not really a nerfed kamui tho, he’s got his ms. Going by kid feats, madara has an edge, how much we don’t know. Mainly for the fact that we KNOW madara we able to kill capable adult senju at the time. We also KNOW that obito went from getting ranked on by a “talentless” dude in his own rank, to being able to fight an adult jonin with a simple 1t(maybe 2? I don’t recall atm) sharingan awakening. He pretty much went from fighting like a cloneless kid naruto to a kid sasuke just awakening his sharingan. Obviously this doesn’t put obito on madaras level as madara was already an adept combatant regardless.

This also leads us to the small deal of the adult senjus. The highest level these guys could more than likely be are jonin. We gotta assume botsuma and uh... tajima? Where the strongest at the time, and tajima has no ms, and botsuma had nothing close to either of his sons power(that we know of) so realistically... how bad ass where these adults?

This leaves us with madara as the better actual fighter, and obito with the better jutsu. Obviously as kids madara can’t spam susanoo and obito can’t spam a full on kamui, but for the sake of the thread they have to be able to do both. With intel madara CAN take it. But shit, can he pull out susanoo before a snipe? Can he close in to disorient obito out of using it? I’d take the latter more then the former, but missing a snipe close range could still leave a piece of madara warped. Granted madara can pull out a susanoo arm and obito could shit his pants, but with intel of his own ability, why not go for the snipe? The snipe is nasty, the eyes where seperated for the whole series for a reason(jk, but still, it minus well have been).
Without intel it’s a wash, madara does his cocky #1 uchiha thing, obitos over eager beaver ass would probably snipe off the bat

Well it depends; As I’d stated in the edited portion of my previous post, if Obito doesn’t have Senju DNA attached to him in this scenario, then his MS would be nerfed. He wouldn’t be able to spam it without issue. There hasn’t been an Uchiha able to use powerful doujutsu techs without some strain on the eye and blood dripping from their eyes. But if he does have Senju DNA, then it’s a rape thread.

And then, like Salamander pointed out, Obito only became skilled as a kid because Zetsu and adult Madara were literally training him. He had to be powerful if he was going to bear Madara’s name. Another thing to note here is that the Uchiha and the Senju were known as the strongest clans and only those clans could do battle resulting in heavy casualties on both sides. For kid Madara to be able to take down skilled adults from the opposing clan is what made Hashirama’s dad “praise” Madara’s skill. And you’re right, we don’t know kid Madara’s chakra reserves but logically he wouldn’t be able to spam Susano’o without the EMS. But even without Susano’o, Madara is a genius as opposed to Obito. Kid Madara’s skill alone was acknowledged which was what elevated him to being the leader of the clan as opposed to the other Uchiha. Izuna also awakened the MS And was comparable to Madara but it isn’t specified which of them was more clever. If anything, that speaks volumes itself as to which of them would win.

 

[InfiniteMugen]

Maybe but teen Obito's pre death stamina is 2.5(below Sasuke's and his intwligence is 1 according to the databook stats. How would you factor that into your calculations.

Nowhere, as kid madara has none, nor was his age ever confirmed in that flashback. Plus, from the looks of it, no one outside of the 4(senju bros, uchiha bros) seemed notable. The adults of obito/kakashi/itachis gen seem more capable(whole next gen surpassing the last and all).

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

This is why I only discuss one point at a time now there are like 20 other things that would require attention. Many of which aren't relevant to the topic at hand or have no bearing on the initial post/discussion.

I'm only going to address Obito and his skills by chapter 244 everything else can or will be irrelevant and lead to only more off topic posting.

Obito in chapter 244 is literally the same age as the Obito in the flashback in chapter 602-607, so that means everything I stated is composite including Madara's opinion on Obito's planning skills because the last time he met Obito was at the age of 13 years old.

What skill are we talking about seeing things in slow motion?

Since when does seeing things in slow motion be consiederes Taijutsu? Look at his scuffle, the speed he was able to keep up with, and deflecting the shinobi’s slashes with both his legs mid air.
That’s skill.

The jutsu's rank is irrelevant Obito saw his chakra and stabbed him he was unaware Obito could do such a thing. Pre Sharingan Obito couldn't do anything to counter it, Kakashi still had analytical ability and senses to help him out. As for countering the pikes good for him that doesn't add to his combat prowess. And like I said he had less stamina than chunin exam Sasuke on top of that

Kakashi himself couldn’t do anything about it either and a shinobi using a high rank jutsu like that means the enemy is skillful. It does add to his combat prowess.
Obito’s stamina is greater than Sasuke’s, and if you’re gonna include the chuunin exam Sasuke then you should include the curse seal power he obtained from then so you can’t compare because that’s the reason why Sasuke’s stamina went from a 2 to a 3.

I don’t know why you even brought up stamina in the first place because Itachi has a 2.5 stamina just like kid Obito does too yet look at how powerful he is? Also not that stamina does not equal chakra btw.

All this is post Madara's training of course his IQ would jump from 1 to 5+ You're grooming your face on the world stage you won't leave him short.

Ironic coming from the guy who hyped up Madara to beyond measures at such a young age. The reason why I pointed that out is to show that Obito is not an idiot when it comes to the face of battle so he won’t get “Hidan-ed” when going up against intellectual fighters such as Madara.

Side note: I hope it’s you posting this and not that idiotic Animegroin doing this for you?

No body compared him to Kakashi we're talking overall performance

There's no low balling Obito pre sharingan freezes up in combat or needs bailing out. We're judging him by his skills and not in relation to Kakashi's performance.

Yo lol you were comparing him to Kakashi, you even compared his sensing skills of that camouflage ninja.
Obito freezed up during that one instance but when he gets serious he puts in work. That Fire Style he shot out was Obito pre sharingan btw and Kakashi was caught off guard by that attack too.
I don’t know why we’re only sticking to pre sharingan Obito because kid Obito has a sharingan.

The eyes see chakra he sees it's flowing different to his and Kakashi's. I don't see what there is to figure out, that's a sharingan ability. It could be said that Obito noticed it and that's to his credit. But we're not discussing that ability rather that he didn't know it was a genjutsu that caused the alteration. As for controlling tailed beasts that's a totally different ability and skill level dependant on the individual.

No actually seeing through a genjutsu takes effort, ask Sasuke during the chuunin exam. I’m order for you to see someone’s chakra is disturbed requires you to penetrate the genjutsu to see it. Having your sharingan activated only allows you to see color right off the bat, that’s the only thing that doesn’t require any effort besides activation.

13 year old Obito doesn't have the Rinnegan or an MS at that. Sasuke's the best overall and in databook 2 his Intelligence is 2.5 Also Kiba has Akamaru assisting him and he uses his specialised abilities from a young age. The stats are solid and I've said it before once Madara trained him teen Obito did infact become 1 of the smartest and went onto fodderise Minato.

13 year old Obito does have a mangekyo sharingan what are you talking about? The rinnegan was a typo but he does have a MS.
Sasuke’s intelligent is a 2, 2.5 was during later on the series near the timeskip.
The Kiba and Akumaru thing doesn’t make sense because his dog follows Kiba’s orders and judgment when it comes to intel. And specialized ability? What do you mean by that because Uchiha’s are above that.

I’m aware that Madara is what helped him get that far but my point is that all Uchihas are geniuses and powerful shinobi, Sasuke told Orochimaru this when he attacked him. They are a clan of prodigies once they awaken the sharingan especially.
You’re making it seem like Obito is this helpless idiot that can’t fight, that’s wrong because Madara specifically chose Obito to carry out his plans.
Teenager is a kid btw.

 

[InfiniteMugen]

Well it depends; As I’d stated in the edited portion of my previous post, if Obito doesn’t have Senju DNA attached to him in this scenario, then his MS would be nerfed. He wouldn’t be able to spam it without issue. There hasn’t been an Uchiha able to use powerful doujutsu techs without some strain on the eye and blood dripping from their eyes. But if he does have Senju DNA, then it’s a rape thread.

And then, like Salamander pointed out, Obito only became skilled as a kid because Zetsu and adult Madara were literally training him. He had to be powerful if he was going to bear Madara’s name. Another thing to note here is that the Uchiha and the Senju were known as the strongest clans and only those clans could do battle resulting in heavy casualties on both sides. For kid Madara to be able to take down skilled adults from the opposing clan is what made Hashirama’s dad “praise” Madara’s skill. And you’re right, we don’t know kid Madara’s chakra reserves but logically he wouldn’t be able to spam Susano’o without the EMS. But even without Susano’o, Madara is a genius as opposed to Obito. Kid Madara’s skill alone was acknowledged which was what elevated him to being the leader of the clan as opposed to the other Uchiha. If anything, that speaks volumes itself as to which of them would win.

Obitos skill jumped greatly just from awakening his sharingan. It’s visual, we can see it. It’s day and night. Like I said tho obito still has a disadvantage in skill. Having both eyes allows obito phase and snipe, he doesn’t have to be as skilled, he just needs to phase through one of madaras attacks, and catch him with the snipe after he goes through. If we limit obito(as a child) he should be able to use a phase and a close range snipe and pass out right after, or use one or the other, get a lil tired, and be able to still use the initial ability again once, or the other ability once. I say once cause we need some kind of basis, kid kakashi passed out from a simple ms awakening, so an actual uchiha child should at least be able to use it once before their out, especially if their not awakened during the fight. We know madara can kill adult senjus of his time, and we know obito could fight an adult jonin of his time(and one shot one by surprise, but that’s irrelevant, although we don’t even know how madara killed his. Like did sneak up on a group and kill one by surprise and take the rest? Did he pick them off in the trees? Did he do a tournament and take them on one by one? Or did he kill them all at once in a brawl? Etc.) the difference in skill is there, but to me it’s not shown to be enough to just dash over and one shot obito easily before he’s sniped. If mads wins it’s cause obito missed both his shots as kamui is his only way of winning. For all intensive purposes he could take a hit from madara on purpose without phasing and sniping madara right there while he’s in his face

 

[Animegoin]

Obitos skill jumped greatly just from awakening his sharingan. It’s visual, we can see it. It’s day and night. Like I said tho obito still has a disadvantage in skill. Having both eyes allows obito phase and snipe, he doesn’t have to be as skilled, he just needs to phase through one of madaras attacks, and catch him with the snipe after he goes through. If we limit obito(as a child) he should be able to use a phase and a close range snipe and pass out right after, or use one or the other, get a lil tired, and be able to still use the initial ability again once, or the other ability once. I say once cause we need some kind of basis, kid kakashi passed out from a simple ms awakening, so an actual uchiha child should at least be able to use it once before their out, especially if their not awakened during the fight. We know madara can kill adult senjus of his time, and we know obito could fight an adult jonin of his time(and one shot one by surprise, but that’s irrelevant, although we don’t even know how madara killed his. Like did sneak up on a group and kill one by surprise and take the rest? Did he pick them off in the trees? Did he do a tournament and take them on one by one? Or did he kill them all at once in a brawl? Etc.) the difference in skill is there, but to me it’s not shown to be enough to just dash over and one shot obito easily before he’s sniped. If mads wins it’s cause obito missed both his shots as kamui is his only way of winning. For all intensive purposes he could take a hit from madara on purpose without phasing and sniping madara right there while he’s in his face

This could go either way tbh, I literally only gave it to Madara because of Madara’s skill and intelligence dwarfs Obito’s, especially when comparing kid Madara’s feats prior to awakening the sharingan. But like you said, that’s just fluff since we don’t know how it was done BUT we do know that Hashirama’s dad decided it was important enough to talk about. We also know that Madara rose to be the leader of his clan. Point is, Kaguya had hacks for days but her ignorance made her lose the battle. That’s similar to Obito in this situation, in my opinion.

But tbh, Obito could pull a “Kamui” and send Madara’s leg or head to his pocket dimension, like Kakashi did Deidara’s arm. (If I’m remembering correctly) and it would work way faster since Obito has both eyes in his head b,c Kamui works faster when both eyes cooperate. But it depends on a multitude of factors that weren’t specified in the OP.

 

[InfiniteMugen]

This could go either way tbh, I literally only gave it to Madara because of Madara’s skill and intelligence dwarfs Obito’s, especially when comparing kid Madara’s feats prior to awakening the sharingan. But like you said, that’s just fluff since we don’t know how it was done BUT we do know that Hashirama’s dad decided it was important enough to talk about. We also know that Madara rose to be the leader of his clan. Point is, Kaguya had hacks for days but her ignorance made her lose the battle. That’s similar to Obito in this situation, in my opinion.

But tbh, Obito could pull a “Kamui” and send Madara’s leg or head to his pocket dimension, like Kakashi did Deidara’s arm. (If I’m remembering correctly) and it would work way faster since Obito has both eyes in his head b,c Kamui works faster when both eyes cooperate. But it depends on a multitude of factors that weren’t specified in the OP.

That’s a good way to look at it, madaras skill and intelligence vs obitos hax jutsu and possible dumb luck. It’s dicey cause like you said, obito could incapacitate madara while madaras say, trying to get out of obitos LoS. I def give madara more of a chance than I originally did though

 

[Scryed]

Madara is not fast enough to avoid Kamui's Snipe speed. However, I am certain kid Madara is more skilled in fighting ability along with better combat tactics than kid Obito.

If this is Obito with Senju DNA then I'll give it to him without doubts.

If it's a hypothetical Obito with no Senju DNA then it depends on how fast he can use Kamui Snipe. When Kakashi first began to use it, it took a while before the snipe fired off. Since Obito is the original owner of those eyes, he might not have that issue or it might atleast still take a while although not as long as Kakashi. IMO he wins or loses depending on how long it takes for him to use Kamui Snipe.

 

[Oblivionx]

That’s a good way to look at it, madaras skill and intelligence vs obitos hax jutsu and possible dumb luck. It’s dicey cause like you said, obito could incapacitate madara while madaras say, trying to get out of obitos LoS. I def give madara more of a chance than I originally did though

I don't understand you guys giving madara susano but not obito? He has both MS so why not? And about stamina, was there a statement about madara's as a kid?

@Scryed you are making it sound like obito will be using the kamui for the first time. In that wouldn't madara fall on the ground because of the pain susano will cause? Because i don't think a kid can endure that level of pain, he might even faint or die. While obito's eyes don't cause pain at least if susano isn't used.

 

[Animegoin]

I don't understand you guys giving madara susano but not obito? He has both MS so why not? And about stamina, was there a statement about madara's as a kid?

@Scryed you are making it sound like obito will be using the kamui for the first time. In that wouldn't madara fall on the ground because of the pain susano will cause? Because i don't think a kid can endure that level of pain, he might even faint or die. While obito's eyes don't cause pain at least if susano isn't used.

Obito’s Susano’o only showed itself when his chakra had Six Paths chakra augmentations, it doesn’t count.

 

[salamander uchiha]

This could go either way tbh, I literally only gave it to Madara because of Madara’s skill and intelligence dwarfs Obito’s, especially when comparing kid Madara’s feats prior to awakening the sharingan. But like you said, that’s just fluff since we don’t know how it was done BUT we do know that Hashirama’s dad decided it was important enough to talk about. We also know that Madara rose to be the leader of his clan. Point is, Kaguya had hacks for days but her ignorance made her lose the battle. That’s similar to Obito in this situation, in my opinion.

But tbh, Obito could pull a “Kamui” and send Madara’s leg or head to his pocket dimension, like Kakashi did Deidara’s arm. (If I’m remembering correctly) and it would work way faster since Obito has both eyes in his head b,c Kamui works faster when both eyes cooperate. But it depends on a multitude of factors that weren’t specified in the OP.

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@bold: that's partially correct but you've got it wrong. Obito used Kamui and Kakashi used kamui on him(Obito) simultaneously doubling his teleporting speed. Obito wouldn't be able to do that if he had both his eyes.

Also both of them are experienced in it's use and Obito is Senju, Rokudo enhanced to boot.

 

[InfiniteMugen]

I don't understand you guys giving madara susano but not obito? He has both MS so why not? And about stamina, was there a statement about madara's as a kid?

@Scryed you are making it sound like obito will be using the kamui for the first time. In that wouldn't madara fall on the ground because of the pain susano will cause? Because i don't think a kid can endure that level of pain, he might even faint or die. While obito's eyes don't cause pain at least if susano isn't used.

Cause obito even as an adult with both his eyes never bothered to use it? Not that it would matter as a susanoo vs susanoo fight would end badly for a kid obito. As for stamina, where in that quote is stamina mentioned?

 

[Mellanoma]

For the record. I seriously doubt Madara could use Susanoo as a child and Obito could not use Phasing / Offensive Kamui either. Since they lack EMS or Hashi upgrades the stress on their bodies alone would destroy them EVEN if they had the chakra.

For this reason I give the fight to Madara. Even if Obito could use phasing Kamui as a child i imagine he could not maintain it or spam it like he does with hashi/zetsu body so Madara would eventually win.

While its true child Madara could defeat experienced senju its not that BIG of a feat considering most experienced shinobi are fodder. Hell Madara and Hashirama fathers were fodder in comparison to modern times.

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Tobirama 20 elite jounin logic applies i guess: You either think the Experienced senju were hashirama lacking mokuton. OR they were abunch of Ebisu XD

 

[Oblivionx]

Obito’s Susano’o only showed itself when his chakra had Six Paths chakra augmentations, it doesn’t count.

But two MS are required. He never had them till kaguya arc so why not give it to him? Its MS power not rikudo power.

Cause obito even as an adult with both his eyes never bothered to use it? Not that it would matter as a susanoo vs susanoo fight would end badly for a kid obito. As for stamina, where in that quote is stamina mentioned?

How will it end badly if only MS is allowed. He has kamui on top of susano. MS susano are nearly same for all uchihas, so i didn't get your point.
As for stamina, i asked because it appears you guys think madara can use susano as a kid but obito has less stamina than him as a kid. I know adult madara had huge reserves but that can't be applied to kid madara. so how are you guys giving susano to madara but saying obito can at best use kamui once or twice?

 

[Marshall D Teach]

Madara wins, he's indras incarnate, obito is not.

 

[InfiniteMugen]

But two MS are required. He never had them till kaguya arc so why not give it to him? Its MS power not rikudo power.



How will it end badly if only MS is allowed. He has kamui on top of susano. MS susano are nearly same for all uchihas, so i didn't get your point.
As for stamina, i asked because it appears you guys think madara can use susano as a kid but obito has less stamina than him as a kid. I know adult madara had huge reserves but that can't be applied to kid madara. so how are you guys giving susano to madara but saying obito can at best use kamui once or twice?

No I was simply giving madara susanoo as his ms power since he has no specific one for the sake of an ms vs ms thread. The stamina part was just a guesstimate on my end for the thread. It would be pointless to make an theoretical ms vs ms fight without being able
To use the ability’s. So for that sake, I gave them both limitations(as 2 kids spamming ms powers is unrealistic even here). It’s not anything confirmed, but given what little we know of both at that age, I just set limits on their ms powers.

Edit: at the age we’re talking, I personally don’t believe obito would be able to use susanoo AND kamui, but that’s just me.

 

[To Whatever]

Kid obito has the strongest ms in the series