But the First Hokage was able to take on Madara in his prime and even defeated Madara. many of the Elders and the older civilians of Konoha loved Minato and even stated Minato's power rivaled with the first, if not better. Minato was also said to be a genius beyond any others, so if he were to fight Madara in his prime, then I would not doubt for a second that Minato could win, even when Madara possesses the EMS. As for the fox, Minato could probably have thought something through with his brain power, but this is the part where only the first could 100% succeed on since he has the power to control the fox greater then Madara's EMS.
[Predictions] Naruto Manga 502 Discussion and 503 Predictions
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silenceofthelambs
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Minato does not have Mokuton techniques, as Hashirama does. So what exactly would Minato think of to defeat the Nine-Tailed Fox? Hashirama's Mokuton were designed to suppress the fox, and were proven effective in doing so.
Sure, Konoha might have adored Minato, but what does that have to do with him fighting Madara? Madara, with his Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan, could constantly use any technique the doujutsu provides without the fear of losing vision. These include Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, and Susanoo. They are some of the most powerful techniques in the entire series. How would Minato get around those?
And Minato was not a genius above all others; he was a genius only seen once in a generation, almost like Orochimaru. But Madara, during his prime, was once praised as "the strongest Shinobi in the world," according to Itachi. While Minato has an incredible amount of strength, Madara just has too many abilities for Minato to handle. Just for starters, the Nine-Tailed Fox; Minato would have a great amount of trouble just trying to fight the Nine-Tails, and not Madara himself. Hashirama, as you said, was the only who could completely succeed in battling Madara because of his special tailed beast supressing abilities. If one does not have these abilities, they will find their battle just got much more difficult against someone of Madara's caliber.
Madara was praised as the strongest shinobi in the world, yet the First defeated him. There's a huge difference on being praised as the strongest and actually being the strongest. Madara loved killing and fighting, he led his clan into wars. The senjuu warriors also rivaled in wars but they weren't keen in killing, they tried to settle matters peacefully. Ofcourse everyone will say Madara is stronger when they see him fighting so often. Everyone will also think Hashirama is a scared *****, avoiding fights. Well, when it comes down to a face off, it appears the scared ***** won. Not to mention his power to control the tailed beasts far surpasses that of even the EMS.
Also, your assessment is pretty far off. Being on the defensive isn't always bad, it's actually at times better. As we saw, with such lightning speed, he also managed to think play-by-play strategy to take the offence while also at the same time figuring out the masked mans true identity. If you notice here, Minato is fighting Madara, he is trying to find a way to get rid of Madara or get away to save the village, and before this story of Minato, all we knew about was that he sealed Half the Fox inside Naruto. There's alot missing in between. How did he manage to get enough time to stop the fox, save the village, and create his own sealing technique to seal it in Naruto. Furthermore, the whole point of Madara's attack was to get Minato out of the way, release the fox, destroy Konoha. Why would Madara just let Minato re-seal it? Why, after Minato's death, did Madara not re-release the fox now that no one was able to stop him with Minato gone? I mean, Minato sacrificing himself eased the work on Madara having to rid him himself, doesn't it? No, there's alot missing there. My assessment would be your way off, Minato did do something to get rid/defeat Madara that night but not permenantly. I doubt Madara could take on Minato easily either even if Madara was at full power.
Your assessment has come from a character we heard so much about, learned so much of his power, the story of his age to grow up, his brother, his clan, his fight with the first. The you compared it to a man that all we knew about was he sealed the fox and saved Konoha 16 years ago. We don't know much about his lineage, nothing of his true potential, all we got we're "he looks just like his father", "Minato was younger the Kakashi when he became Hokage!", "He was a once in a life time genius.". That's not enough to make a good assessment, sorry mate.
Minato's wife, Kushina, held the fox inside her. It was up to Minato to keep the seal in place as she gave birth. With how smart he was, how do you know he couldn't have created some technique similar to Hashirama's to control the fox if it broke loose?
Also, according to your logic, what happens to Naruto? Sasuke now has the EMS. Does that mean it's impossible for Naruto to defeat Sasuke? No, Naruto has the power of the fox now, but did he come across the fox by accident? "Oh hello there, who are you, you fox like creature in my stomach?" No, Naruto has the power given to him from Minato. Why? Cause Minato thought way ahead into the future, WHILE, sealing a fox, figuring out Madara's identity, ASWELL as potentially defeating Madara that night. That is alot to do within a few hours of Naruto's birth to Minato's sacrifice. Minato could also have easily used seals Kushina taught him to seal it into anyone, even himself, but he wanted someone with the ability to use it. So he created his own seal in which the user can draw chakra from the fox.
Also, Ameterasu, as we've seen, can simply be outrun done by Sasuke, and I'm pretty sure Minato is faster then Sasuke. Tsukoyomi aswell, Sasuke turned it against his brother, and Sasuke is very smart, but again, I'm sure Minato is by far smarter and can counter it. As for Susanoo, well we saw the Raikage destroy Sasuke's Susanoo, and the raikage is hella fast too, that's a key compnent that enabled him to beat Susanoo. Again, FTG can simply get near madara before completing Susanoo, or he can just use his speed. Those 3 doujutsus do not make the user invincible if they can use it unlimitedly, which again, madara couldn't. You need unlimited chakra to do that, and being an Uchiha, his chakra was very limited. Since Naruto, excluding the fox, has a huge bank of chakra, who could he have inherited that from? Possibly Minato, could be Kushina, but who knows, again, we know very little of Minato to make such assessments.
Come to think of it , if madara had his Space Time jutsu when he fought the 1st how could he have landed attacks on madara ? And we all Know that 4th is much faster than the first , and even he is having problems ...
It could be that Madara before and when he fought the first couldn't use the Space/Time jutsu. After all we heard about throughout the manga, people knew alot about Madara but not once did they say he had this power. Possibly, he can only use this Space/Time jutsu when he's in this form, as he said, "I'm just s shell of my former self". That's probably how Naruto or someone else can defeat him later, once he gains back his powers and former body, he probably might not be able to use Space/Time jutsus anymore.Come to think of it , if madara had his Space Time jutsu when he fought the 1st how could he have landed attacks on madara ? And we all Know that 4th is much faster than the first , and even he is having problems ...
Also, if your thinking of it that way, Izanagi, when used at the right time, will allow you to live at the cost of 1 sharingan eye. Danzou showed us perfectly well on the jutsu. It could be possible Madara used it at the wrong time, maybe not soon enough? So he died, and Izanagi failed to bring him back completely. That kinda seems like a ghost, or aka "shell of his former self". That could be why barrier and such have no affect on him when he doesn't want to be noticed/hit. He stuck in a parrallel universe between dead and alive. That could also explain why he's still alive after all these years. He's not techiniquelly alive so he can't die again, but then Izanagi might have brought back an imprint, image to say.
Who knows, hopefully we'll find out soon though! >.<
silenceofthelambs
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The First Hokage did indeed defeat Madara, but it looks as if Hashirama had assistance from the outside. His wife, Mito Uzumaki, sealed the Nine-Tails inside herself when Hashirama took control of the Nine-Tails. If Mito were not there, both Hashirama and Madara would have ended up killing each other. Madara wants to create war because he wants to beat the Senju clan down to the ground, as revenge for the defeat he suffered all those years ago. I think that the Sharingan can only release a tailed beast, not suppress it, while Hashirama's Mokuton techniques can only suppress a tailed beast, not release it.
I know that sometimes being on the defensive presents an advantage for a person, but I was asking if Minato were to fight Madara (who has the Nine-Tailed Fox at his side), wouldn't Minato spend most if not all of the battle evading the Nine-Tails' attacks? Eventually Minato would make to make an attack if he would want to defeat Madara, would he not? It is true that we don't know much about Minato, even now, but if Minato were that powerful, why didn't he kill Madara? Minato said that he "[had] to stop to this guy," so why didn't he? Much still is not known about Minato sealing the Nine-Tailed Fox, but he said he would have to trust Sarutobi to take care of the village while he took care of Madara. What forced Minato to leave and seal the fox into Naruto?
Whatever Minato might have done to Madara that night, it's not showing now, because Madara has always stated in the manga that he is in this weakened state because of the fight with the First Hokage he had at the Valley of the End. Also, the facts you gave about Minato are not the only things we know about him, let me list a few others: Minato's Flying Thunder God technique was crucial for Konoha's victory in the Third Shinobi War, he created the Rasengan (and left it unfinished due to his early death), and sealed only a portion of the Nine-Tails' chakra into his son Naruto using the Shiki Fuujin. While there are more, these are some of the most important.
It is possible to make an assessment of Minato and his abilities, but the more information we get, the better the judgment becomes. And these next chapters will give us exactly that - more information on what exactly happened during that fateful night.
Whiteknight
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In this particular case, yes I think that Minato might have been at a disadvantage. Minato cannot control the fox in the same way that Hashirama or Madara can. However, Minato knows some powerful space-time techniques and some powerful sealing techniques, thanks to his wife and other knowledge he might have gotten from things like the scroll of secret techniques.
We do see that Minato can effortlessly deflect the fox's most powerful attack using his space-time techniques.
Minato might not be able to control the fox, but he can obviously take the fox out of the battle.
First, how did Hashirama do it? Hashirama's wood-release techniques would only have helped him fight against the fox, not against Madara. Also, Minato mentions that the second hokage was gifted in space-time techniques, but never mentions that the first hokage was too. For all we know, Minato has much more talent in space-time techniques than Hashirama did, plus other techniques that we haven't even seen him use.
Amaterasu: We know that it can be avoided with speed, such as when the Raikage avoided it when fighting Sasuke. Minato has speed. We also know that once hit with it, a person with space-time techniques can escape it, like when Sasuke used it on Madara. Minato has space-time techniques.
Tsukuyomi: It's a powerful genjutsu, but it's still just a genjutsu. A powerful ninja can escape genjutsu. Also, this technique has a weakness that you need to make eye-contact for it to work. Minato is obviously aware of Madara's techniques and abilities, I think we can assume he will avoid eye contact.
Susanoo: We've seen in the fight between Sasuke and Danzo that Susanoo isn't an ultimate defense, powerful techniques can break through it. Plus, it wastes a lot of chakra, so it can't be used for long. Minato could easily avoid Susanoo's physical attacks (be they sword or arrow), and wait for Madara's chakra to decrease and the defense of Susanoo to decrease. This is a powerful technique, but very limited.
Space/Time Warp Techniques: We've been seeing Minato avoid Madara's warp techniques so far, so this doesn't pose a threat to him.
Let's look at what we know about the story so far: Madara and the Fox did attack the village, Minato is fighting Madara. At some point, Madara disappears from the fight, and Minato is able to break the fox in half and seal part of it into Naruto. History shows that Minato won this battle, though sacrificing himself in the process.
silenceofthelambs
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Minato might have had a high level of intelligence, but he did not have Hashirama's Mokuton techniques, which could suppress the Nine-Tails. What sort of techniques could Minato possibly create to keep the Nine-Tails under control?
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Apparently both pieces of the puzzle are needed to fully control the Nine-Tailed Fox: "the powers of both Uchiha and Hashirama." Well, now that Sasuke has his own Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan, it will be much harder for Naruto to defeat him. Now that Sasuke's Mangekyou techniques are fully developed, the fight will become much more interesting. Of course, Naruto has made extraordinary progress as well in the past, so it will be interesting to see what powers he will develop as well. Yes, Minato planned ahead, but once again I ask, why did he not kill Madara if he could, and seal the Nine-Tails in himself, killing himself along with the beast? Also, Minato did not figure out Madara's identity - he simply asked Madara if he was "Uchiha Madara," to which Madara gave no definite answer. And as far as Minato defeating Madara, that is still all speculation, so we don't know about that yet.
I did not say the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan makes one invincible, all I said was it is also effective for controlling a tailed beast, a valuable asset for the user. Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, with the right planning, can be avoided, but Susanoo, as a matter of fact, does make the user invincible, if it is completely developed. The Susanoo that the Raikage destroyed was incomplete, so yes, the incomplete version is susceptible to harm, as shown below.
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Naruto has enormous reserves of chakra now that he has control of the Nine-Tails, and we can expect to see some impressive techniques from both sides in the future. After all, it's going to be the biggest battle in the entire series, the one that everyone has been waiting for.
With the little information we have about madara's and minato's techniques. You might think like that. But we don't know every ability that both can do yet. You are resulting an equation with too much unknown variables. I doubt all 4th can do is (a limited) teleportation around like mr spock and a rasengan which even brat konohamaru can perform.
And i'm not certain what the big deal about teleportation is. Recently the manga makes great fuss about it but in the mean time every bozo and their mother seem to be teleporting all around in some way (not talking about body flicker). I can link few dozens teleportation from manga and anime. I believe it is a story flaw.
Ps. You guys should stop flaming silence of the lambs. He writes rather elegantly compared to rest of the forum users.
And i'm not certain what the big deal about teleportation is. Recently the manga makes great fuss about it but in the mean time every bozo and their mother seem to be teleporting all around in some way (not talking about body flicker). I can link few dozens teleportation from manga and anime. I believe it is a story flaw.
Ps. You guys should stop flaming silence of the lambs. He writes rather elegantly compared to rest of the forum users.
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First of all, Hashirama didn't need to seal the fox away to allow his victory over Madara. If he had control of it, and was able to put it off aside for Mito to seal it, that does not mean he had help. He could have used the fox against Madara, but he didn't. He faught Madara 1 on 1, there was no assistance at all. Also, the sharingan can't release the tailed-beast. He can control it to do what he wants. It's not Sharingan releases, and Mokuton seals.
Secondly, your questions are idiotic, sorry to say. We have not seen the end of this fight. Also, Minato told Naruto who the masked man was when they met in Naruto's mind. Now, he would have only told Naruto this on two reasons. 1.) From viewing inside Naruto, he noticed the masked man was alive still after he thought he killed him that night, which is incorrect, or 2.) He knew this man couldn't be killed, he was somehow immortal, thus he would give Naruto the power of the fox, who too is immortal and physical attacks don't harm it. Minato was probably waging that the attacks from the fox might be able to inflict actual damage upon Madara. In which case, he needed the user to be able to use the fox's power. Unfortunately, Kushina's seals wouldn't allow that, so he created his own.
As for why was he forced to come back to the village to stop the fox? Are you stupid? Ok yea, Madara gave up his plan to get rid of Minato and instead forced Minato to go back to the village and save it cause Madara realised what he did was wrong. Obviously that's dumb. Minato wasn't FORCED to go back to save the village, he was the HOKAGE, it was his DUTY to SAVE the VILLAGE. He came back on his own free will, gave up his life on his own free will, saved his village ON HIS OWN FREE WILL. Now, the question is, how could he have done that when Madara can use this Space/Time jutsu and snag Minato. The answer is obvious, Minato succeeded in getting rid of Madara for enough time to seal the fox. Most of all, he sealed it SECRETLY. Madara never came back, why? Cause he didn't know who the fox was sealed in. It wasn't till years later he would have known it was Naruto, but he had time and Konoha had powerful ninjas prepping for his return such as Danzou, Jiraiya, etc.
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xNARUTOUZUMAKIx
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And once again, I will say, Minato most likely figured out that night that Madara was immortal, immune to physical attacks. Those resemble the tailed beasts, and there was only one tailed beast on his mind, the 9-tailed fox who was destroying his village. Minato also told Naruto in his mind that the masked man will attack Konoha again one day, but the day he attacks, Minato wanted a power to hopefully be able to stop Madara. Pysical attacks don't harm the kyubi, but what if it's own attacks can harm itself? It was a risk Minato took, if the Kyubi's attack can harm itself, why can't it harm a second body who too is also immune to attacks and is immortal? If Minato took the fox inside him, he would have the fox but be unable to use it. He also knew Madara was after the fox, so he needed a way to get rid of it as well as have someone be able to control it. Well his seal fixed the controlling part, but madara can take the Kyubi any day, and Minato probably knew Madara had plans for it. So what better then to secretly take half the fox into the shinigami's stomach? Could it be possible that this will affect the resurection of the jyubi? I doubt Minato knew of the Jyubi but maybe taking half the fox was still worth it as we have seen that 1 half is already too powerful for even Naruto.
yondaimeminato
Active member
what makes you think that madara had this powers when he fought the first hokage?
pureozzy101
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My Guess Is The Fox Really Wants to screw over madara as well... And since the fox is like the oldest thing alive in Narutoverse he will know many secrets and techniques which will find their way to naruto since the fox has no will left. thus "The fox = unlimited knowledge". also since he's been in the uzamaki family line for so long he SHOULD also know all about them and their sealing techniques etc.
As for minato V.S Tobi i believe during the fight minato must have used a sealing technique on tobi to weaken him to a point where tobi had to retreat. With no way of beating the kyuubi minato had to offer his own life to save his family/people.
As for all this speculation to tell you the truth we have a absolutely insufficient amount of information to say anything e.g whose Tobi. whose stronger. what happened to madaras strength/power. etc
This just shows how good Kishi is of a writter, keeps the questions incoming and possibilities open until HE reveals it
As for minato V.S Tobi i believe during the fight minato must have used a sealing technique on tobi to weaken him to a point where tobi had to retreat. With no way of beating the kyuubi minato had to offer his own life to save his family/people.
As for all this speculation to tell you the truth we have a absolutely insufficient amount of information to say anything e.g whose Tobi. whose stronger. what happened to madaras strength/power. etc
This just shows how good Kishi is of a writter, keeps the questions incoming and possibilities open until HE reveals it
yondaimeminato
Active member
Amaterasu and Susanoo? where have you seen madara using any of these? the answer is simple, no where. We have only seen sasuke and itachi use them. sasuke has itachi's MS powers because they are siblings and because itachi gave them to him. As far as I can remember each MS has it's own abilities. Like kakashi's MS kumai ability. Sasuke or itachi doesn't have it.
yondaimeminato
Active member
How the hell do you expect to kill someone like madara/tobi/mask man? Someone who can make his body transparent. Minato was only able to make a hit on madara/tobi/mask man because he went on the offensive. Now if madara chooses to retreat and not attack anymore then there would be no way to kill him because there won't be a way to get him to solidify himself again.
It's better to take care of the nine tail demon than trying to kill someone who can't be killed if he doesn't go on the offensive.
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pureozzy101
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Last comment : Itachi Uchiha > Madara Etc. The Truth Is His Susanoo was unbeatable with the shield and sword absolutely NO one can beat it
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