Tsunade and Saukra vs Deidara and Kakuzu

[super yang]

agreed but all of them takes massive dump on kakuzu too so the point here is moot

not gaara...

 

[Curse Mark]

not gaara...

Yes he does

 

[RedRobin]

Gaara did better than her again the susanno.

How did he do better?

 

[BLAZE]

not gaara...

yes he does

 

[SasukeSixPack]

yes he does

Kakuzu can't kill Gaara dude. All his attaks are blocked, flight means nada, Gaara crushes those hearts with minimum effort using his high speed sand and he can simply crush Kakuzu.

 

[BLAZE]

Kakuzu can't kill Gaara dude. All his attaks are blocked, flight means nada, Gaara crushes those hearts with minimum effort using his high speed sand and he can simply crush Kakuzu.

and why are you telling me this when i already said ohnoki,Ei and gaara takes a dump on kakuzu

 

[SasukeSixPack]

not gaara...

Your brain probably needs some Yin.

 

[Tazzilla88]

Tsunade is massively inferior to Gaara, Ay, and Onoki.

She's massively inferior to the guy who couldn't land a clean hit on Madara's clone, when she was able to do so.



Oonoki is the strongest of the gokage. His particle style is a one shot technique. Tsunade is second in line for the strongest as she is the only other kage to really display that kind of strength.

Ay's strongest technique is Liger Bomb, which barely managed to break Sasuke's susanoo ribcage. It's not on par with her strength. Nor is it on par with bpd. Or with katsuyu. Add into that the cannon fact that Tsunade uses 4 elements and Ay is obviously the weaker of the two.

Gaara's usefulness is largely dependent on terrain. He could produce a lot of sand sure, but not immediately. In the desert, he has the advantage. Outside of it, his advantage quickly disappears.
Meanwhile Gaara without Shukaku's most impressive usage of Sand is Sand Tsunami. However, we are critically aware of the limits of Gaara's Sand Shield and his slower reaction time.

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Thanks to things such as Katsuyu, Tsunade can launch an offensive from several directions much like Madara's clones did. Add in her affinity to Raiton and his defense and offense becomes more delicate

 

[Forbidden Technique]

Tsunade is massively inferior to Gaara, Ay, and Onoki.

She's massively inferior to the guy who couldn't land a clean hit on Madara's clone, when she was able to do so.



Oonoki is the strongest of the gokage. His particle style is a one shot technique. Tsunade is second in line for the strongest as she is the only other kage to really display that kind of strength.

Ay's strongest technique is Liger Bomb, which barely managed to break Sasuke's susanoo ribcage. It's not on par with her strength. Nor is it on par with bpd. Or with katsuyu. Add into that the cannon fact that Tsunade uses 4 elements and Ay is obviously the weaker of the two.

Gaara's usefulness is largely dependent on terrain. He could produce a lot of sand sure, but not immediately. In the desert, he has the advantage. Outside of it, his advantage quickly disappears.
Meanwhile Gaara without Shukaku's most impressive usage of Sand is Sand Tsunami. However, we are critically aware of the limits of Gaara's Sand Shield and his slower reaction time.

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Thanks to things such as Katsuyu, Tsunade can launch an offensive from several directions much like Madara's clones did. Add in her affinity to Raiton and his defense and offense becomes more delicate

It literally just went from Tsunade being severely underestimated to severely overestimated lmao.

 

[Icelerate]

Oonoki is the strongest of the gokage. His particle style is a one shot technique. Tsunade is second in line for the strongest as she is the only other kage to really display that kind of strength.

Ay's strongest technique is Liger Bomb, which barely managed to break Sasuke's susanoo ribcage. It's not on par with her strength. Nor is it on par with bpd. Or with katsuyu. Add into that the cannon fact that Tsunade uses 4 elements and Ay is obviously the weaker of the two.

You only proved Tsunade is physically stronger, not whether she's a better fighter than Ay. Tsunade is featless with her 4 elements whereas Ay has mastery over raiton.

Gaara's usefulness is largely dependent on terrain. He could produce a lot of sand sure, but not immediately. In the desert, he has the advantage. Outside of it, his advantage quickly disappears.
Meanwhile Gaara without Shukaku's most impressive usage of Sand is Sand Tsunami. However, we are critically aware of the limits of Gaara's Sand Shield and his slower reaction time.

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Thanks to things such as Katsuyu, Tsunade can launch an offensive from several directions much like Madara's clones did. Add in her affinity to Raiton and his defense and offense becomes more delicate

Gaara can utilize his gourd sand in more effective ways than Tsunade can utilize Katsuyu. It gives him the ability to fly and attack in multiple ways. Once Gaara creates a mini desert, he literally controls the very terrain his opponents stand on making him an incredibly tough opponent when it comes to offense and defence. Tsunade's defensive capability is obviously vastly inferior and her offence isn't nearly as varied as Gaara.

 

[Lord Tywin]

She's massively inferior to the guy who couldn't land a clean hit on Madara's clone, when she was able to do so.



Oonoki is the strongest of the gokage. His particle style is a one shot technique. Tsunade is second in line for the strongest as she is the only other kage to really display that kind of strength.

Ay's strongest technique is Liger Bomb, which barely managed to break Sasuke's susanoo ribcage. It's not on par with her strength. Nor is it on par with bpd. Or with katsuyu. Add into that the cannon fact that Tsunade uses 4 elements and Ay is obviously the weaker of the two.

Gaara's usefulness is largely dependent on terrain. He could produce a lot of sand sure, but not immediately. In the desert, he has the advantage. Outside of it, his advantage quickly disappears.
Meanwhile Gaara without Shukaku's most impressive usage of Sand is Sand Tsunami. However, we are critically aware of the limits of Gaara's Sand Shield and his slower reaction time.

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Thanks to things such as Katsuyu, Tsunade can launch an offensive from several directions much like Madara's clones did. Add in her affinity to Raiton and his defense and offense becomes more delicate

I'm not even going to entertain this.

How are you just ignoring that and not counting that towards how equal she is to the rest of the gokage?

Here the thing KRATOS, she may not win but if Madara couldnt kill easily her then the Gokage arent going to have an easier time. You see how your points do not match up?

She was one of the most useful people in that fight next to Onoki but then to turn around and say she is massively inferior to the rest of the gokage makes no sense. Like zero sense.

In a head on fight she gets shitted on against those 3. That's the point.

 

[Tazzilla88]

You only proved Tsunade is physically stronger, not whether she's a better fighter than Ay. Tsunade is featless with her 4 elements whereas Ay has mastery over raiton.

Gaara can utilize his gourd sand in more effective ways than Tsunade can utilize Katsuyu. It gives him the ability to fly and attack in multiple ways. Once Gaara creates a mini desert, he literally controls the very terrain his opponents stand on making him an incredibly tough opponent when it comes to offense and defence. Tsunade's defensive capability is obviously vastly inferior and her offence isn't nearly as varied as Gaara.

No, Ice what I proved is that Tsunade is physically stronger and that she has more in her arsenal. Furthermore, we can extrapolate the power level of Liger Bomb based on the damage it did to Sasuke's Sussano Ribcage and the Environment, and compare that to say the lethal effects of Zeshi Nensan of which Zeshi Nensan is obviously the more deadly of the two as it had the power to kill Orochimaru and to melt through stone.

Liger Bomb as opposed to Ranshinsho, is meant to kill and is the more lethal of the two. However if used on an upper level opponent who could survive such an attack Ranshinsho is the stronger technique as it completely disables an opponent regardless of their durability. It then allows for subsequent attacks to be be utilized without worry of counterattack.

And this is my point, Ay relies on his strength to kill opponents. Ay is physically weaker than Bee. Bee's Hachibi Lariat didn't kill Sasuke. It's been stated numerous times that a hit head on from Tsunade is the end. She beats Raikage at his own game.

If the argument is that Ay is leagues above her because of his speed, the next problem is that she has been implied to be able to hold her ground with him. In the scuffle with the jiinchuriki and two different times in the battle with Madara.

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But you're right I didn't prove that her CQC was greater than Ay's, yet. Because Ay relies on his speed to deliver power he never had to use much taijutsu skill to fight opponents. This is pretty obvious because when Madara blocked his attack, his response was that he needs to be faster to breach Madara's defense. He didn't try to out skill Madara and land a blow.

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Which now brings me to Tsunade, she isn't as fast as Ay, which means it wasn't her speed that breached Clone Madara's defense.

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No Kage knew it was a clone and they each sought to take him out. The only one to push him in CQC then was Tsunade. Which exemplifies that her skill in taijutsu exceeds Raikage's skills. And that her skills are great enough to overcome the speed advantage Raikage had as with his normal speed, V1 or V2 he couldn't go toe to toe with clone Madara.


On to Gaara, I mentioned that he can change the terrain I'm obviously aware of that. The thing is simply this, creating said mini-desert takes time. That is time that he needs to hold off Tsunade in CQC. Nothing suggests that he can do this. Combine her 5 in Taijutsu, with her feats of hitting clone Madara, and the levels of strength she has been portrayed to have and in the very beginning of the battle Gaara would get tossed around. He wouldn't have the taijutsu skills to evade Tsunade. His Sand shields wouldn't be nearly strong enough stop her attack. Which means if he doesn't immediately take to the sky, the battle is over. Her battle senses are sharper than his. If he takes to the sky immediately, she's fast enough to move good size distances in air before he is able to construct a sand shield.

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Furthermore when he is in a desert he really just squanders it. He'll do things like grab Madara by the foot, or produce a Sand Tsunami, he'll use Sand Hail and Sand Storm. All of which is avoidable or tank-able for Tsunade. Add in that if he goes for Sand Coffin or Imperial Burial then summoning Katsuyu immediately gets her out of it. Let us not forget that Gaara's strongest sand shield was torn through by Yasaka Magatama, meanwhile Tsunade was hit a point blank range by the same technique and was fine. Her having four elements, a summon, and monstrous strength would argue that she can be far more versatile than he can. Add in that, her attacks that we have seen have all been one to two hit K.O.s even if her arsenal wasn't more versatile it's more lethal. Nothing. Nothing suggests that Gaara is above Tsunade in overall strength.



The featless argument is silly. We were talking about portrayal and not about a vs debate. Feats really matter in a vs. debate because its a debate of move sets and you can't argue an unknown unquantifiable attack. However, when we talk about over all strength we can use all that the canon gives us. As the artist gives us information for a reason. He seeks to make a statement about a certain thing. Again Author's intent matters. So to say "those 4 elements are featless but Ay has mastery over Raiton" is ignoring both logic and Kishi's intent in identifying that information.


My first point would be that Kishi has identified Tsunade as a top tier ninjutsu user by giving her a 5 in the category of ninjutsu. She has the highest possible skill level in ninjutsu. She was heralded for decades for having the most precise chakra control. In her battle with the other sannin in which she earned her title of sannin beside them (against Hanzo) there is no evidence to suggest she was using her strength in that battle. Jiraiya once stated that she knows jutsus more incredible that chidori which itself is an A rank Technique.

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My second point, the only elemental technique we've ever seen Tsunade whip out was an A rank technique. Nothing suggests that her elements are not mastered. In fact, the entirety of the Shinobi allied forces used Doton jutsu to try to stop the Juubi's TBB. Obviously, everyone possesses the ability to use Doton and likely all other elements on a pitiful scale. Yet, not every shinobi who fought in the war is marked as being a Doton user.

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Which suggests that certain level of skill is a prerequisite to being a user of an element. Now, Tsunade uses Fire, Earth, Water, and Lightning Styles and does so with enough skill to be considered a user of those elements. Without feats we can ascertain a minimum level of skill necessary for that due to other instances in the manga. It's about interpreting all data and not cherry picking.


My third point, when Naruto was going through elemental chakra training Kakashi and Yamato said that Jonin often use two sometimes three elements. Tsunade uses four. Again considering author's intent, Tsunade is being displayed as quite capable.

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I had a fourth point but I just woke up so let me suffice to say I'll be adding in all the scans I need to in order to defend the arguments I just laid out

 

[SasukeSixPack]

.
And this is my point, Ay relies on his strength to kill opponents. Ay is physically weaker than Bee. Bee's Hachibi Lariat didn't kill Sasuke. It's been stated numerous times that a hit head on from Tsunade is the end. She beats Raikage at his own game.

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[Tazzilla88]

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have you even read the manga

 

[SasukeSixPack]

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have you even read the manga

If it didn't kill Sasuke why did Jugo have to save his life? Oh wait...

It's been stated numerous times that a hit head on from Tsunade is the end.

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[BLAZE]

Which suggests that certain level of skill is a prerequisite to being a user of an element. Now, Tsunade uses Fire, Earth, Water, and Lightning Styles and does so with enough skill to be considered a user of those elements. Without feats we can ascertain a minimum level of skill necessary for that due to other instances in the manga. It's about interpreting all data and not cherry picking.

gping by this logic Teen sasuke can use Bijuudama lvl Katon,Suiton,Doton and Fuuton

 

[Tazzilla88]

If it didn't kill Sasuke why did Jugo have to save his life? Oh wait...

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It certainly ended the fight against the most resilient character in Naruto to date.

gping by this logic Teen sasuke can use Bijuudama lvl Katon,Suiton,Doton and Fuuton

A half cocked assertion that only used one of the various strings of argument. Half cocked because I didn't asses what power level that is, simply that it is a minimum level, namely above a D rank technique. You use reductio ad absurdum to try to make a point but failed miserably. Stay at the children's table.

 

[BLAZE]

A half cocked assertion that only used one of the various strings of argument. Half cocked because I didn't asses what power level that is, simply that it is a minimum level, namely above a D rank technique. You use reductio ad absurdum to try to make a point but failed miserably. Stay at the children's table.

So what should i do to go to Adult's table

Make half cocked assertion that Tsunade stands chance against either Ei,Gaara or Ohnoki.Discredit Ohnoki and then wank Tsunade
Make more half cocked assertion about her nature transformation
Make half cocked assertion how katsuyu :lol is more usefull than gaara's sand


No thanks

 

[SasukeSixPack]

It certainly ended the fight against the most resilient character in Naruto to date.


A half cocked assertion that only used one of the various strings of argument. Half cocked because I didn't asses what power level that is, simply that it is a minimum level, namely above a D rank technique. You use reductio ad absurdum to try to make a point but failed miserably. Stay at the children's table.

Kirabi's lariat did more damage than that punch and we know this because sasuke would have died from it

 

[Tazzilla88]

So what should i do to go to Adult's able

Make half cocked assertion that Tsunade stands chance against either Ei,Gaara or Ohnoki.Discredit Ohnoki and then wank Tsunade
Make more half cocked assertion about her nature transformation
Make half cocked assertion how katsuyu :lol is more usefull than gaara's sand


No thanks

Do me a favor, prove that my argument was half cocked. I used three lines of argumentation to prove a singular point. You took a fragment of one of those line and pretended that was the point itself.

And you are obviously incapable of reading coherently, I discredited Oonoki? What did I say?

Oonoki is the strongest of the gokage. His particle style is a one shot technique.

Ay is the weakest Kage. It's not about vs each other its about overall strength and he's the weakest. Weaker than Mei, Tsunade, Gaara, and Oonoki

Katsuyu is more useful than Gaara's sand. It healed the entire shinobi army, put Tsunade back together and allowed the other kage to be healed in addition being able to be used as an offensive summon. And it was able to protect people from Chou Shinra Tensei.

Half cocked assertions about her nature transformations? Yeah, I only made assertions based on y'know the things Kishi wrote. I would love for you to point out to me where the logic is flawed. And I don't mean through silly logical errors such as reductio ad absurdum.

When I say stay at the child's table, I mean you don't have the logical skills to actually compete. Certainly not on this topic.

Kirabi's lariat did more damage than that punch and we know this because sasuke would have died from it

Name a blunt force attack that has made Orochimaru stop fighting. Actually name anything beyond the Totsuka sword that really stopped Orochimaru within the pages of the manga. It's obvious that things such as Senju Shinju would lay him down, but then we're talking demigod levels of power. I mean anything short of the power Hashirama and Madara displayed.