Tsunade and Saukra vs Deidara and Kakuzu

RedRobin

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I cringed when he called the other 4 kage exponentially stronger. I won't even go into detail as to why that's bs. Lets just remember who could have walked away from that battle if they didn't care and who needed help.

She probably couldnt have walked away immediately haha!

But seriously I am not even going get involved with someone who wants to ignore everything Tsunade did in the fight against Madara. Someone who is going to make excuses for everything Tsunade did and say everything she did does not count or matter. Absolutely ridiculous.
 

Joshutsu

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She probably couldnt have walked away immediately haha!

But seriously I am not even going get involved with someone who wants to ignore everything Tsunade did in the fight against Madara. Someone who is going to make excuses for everything Tsunade did and say everything she did does not count or matter. Absolutely ridiculous.

lmao! And yeah i accepted some people will just know the truth and still say otherwise. But i am pretty sure that they are just as bitter inside as admitting it. I should know, i once tried to deny the truth for certain things hehe
 

NarutoX28

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Anyways, as I said her being rusty means nothing when even in her fight (with 4 other Kage exponentially stronger than herself) with Madara she showed nothing of the like in speed and evasion, which I don't really know why it was brought up exactly here but that means that she would have a tough time evading Kakuzu's arsenal on her own, not to mention Deidara's.

This is absolutely wrong. Tsunade was the only one who could physically fight against Madara's Susano'o clones aside from Onoki, not to mention that she shifted the fight in the Gokage's favor when Tsunade's expertise in close-combat is what forced Madara to swap places with a clone in the first place. Before that, that wasn't possible. To suggest that she's exponentially weaker than the other Kage despite being a Sannin and outperforming the majority of the Gokage against Madara? Seriously? That's complete denial.

But its not fair to claim their extreme given the same circumstances we've seen her in.

@Bold is simply more hype, basically like giving Sasuke's speed to Oro who trained him :lol

Not sure what you mean in the first sentence.

No. Databook gives Tsunade a superior Taijutsu and Speed stat and manga clearly indicates that she inherited her evasive skills through Tsunade. Sasuke and Orochimaru aren't comparable when Sasuke never inherited his speed from Orochimaru's training, not to mention that not only are we not indicated that Sasuke inherited his speed from Orochimaru's training, but also that Orochimaru doesn't even specialize in speed to begin with.
 

BLAZE

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Minato has 0
Tobirama has 1
Hashirama has 2
kakashi has 3
hiruzen has 5

and most characters have no element/nature development
read the 4th DB or at least the above scan
 

NarutoX28

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Minato has 0
Tobirama has 1
Hashirama has 2
kakashi has 3
hiruzen has 5

and most characters have no element/nature development

This is all entirely wrong if you read the 4th Databook.
 

Zexion~

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This is absolutely wrong. Tsunade was the only one who could physically fight against Madara's Susano'o clones aside from Onoki, not to mention that she shifted the fight in the Gokage's favor when Tsunade's expertise in close-combat is what forced Madara to swap places with a clone in the first place. Before that, that wasn't possible. To suggest that she's exponentially weaker than the other Kage despite being a Sannin and outperforming the majority of the Gokage against Madara? Seriously? That's complete denial.

What are you saying? Tsunade was dealing with them physically because she's the strongest physical Kage :lol besides maybe Ay who also was doing quite a bit. Also from what I recall she constantly failed to avoid Susano'o swords from clones and the original alike, and like I said she tanked a blow, healed from it and than struck the clone Madara switched places with :lol NO EVASION NECCESARY.

I'm not saying she's not strong, or that she can't put up a fight in CQC if not overwhelm the Akatsuki present. I'm just saying that her evasion and speed has alot left to be desired in terms of the feats department.

I'm not going to adress what you said lastly as its nothing I don't already know, again if you want to bless her with hype by all means go ahead but just because Tsunade was said to teach Sakura her evasion techniques (which evaded a grand total of one attack, and the slowest of Sasori's arsenal mind you) doesn't mean we can simply say she avoids everything.


I cringed when he called the other 4 kage exponentially stronger. I won't even go into detail as to why that's bs. Lets just remember who could have walked away from that battle if they didn't care and who needed help.

:lol because all Kage besides Mei casually stomp Tsunade.


@Red Robin show feats of her evading ANYTHING during the Madara battle which is what i'm arguing.
 
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NarutoX28

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What are you saying? Tsunade was dealing with them physically because she's the strongest physical Kage :lol besides maybe Ay who also was doing quite a bit. Also from what I recall she constantly failed to avoid Susano'o swords from clones and the original alike, and like I said she tanked a blow, healed from it and than struck the clone Madara switched places with :lol NO EVASION NECCESARY.

I'm not saying she's not strong, or that she can't put up a fight in CQC if not overwhelm the Akatsuki present. I'm just saying that her evasion and speed has alot left to be desired in terms of the feats department.

I'm not going to adress what you said lastly as its nothing I don't already know, again if you want to bless her with hype by all means go ahead but just because Tsunade was said to teach Sakura her evasion techniques (which evaded a grand total of one attack, and the slowest of Sasori's arsenal mind you) doesn't mean we can simply say she avoids everything.

Not what I meant. I meant that she was the only one capable of fighting back against any of the Susano'o clones. The other Gokage were incapable of doing so. Mei had her ass beat, Gaara could only pull up a defense against their attacks, and not even Raikage was given the opportunity to dance around their attacks and deliver a clean blow like Tsunade did. Tsunade's had nothing to do with just being the strongest physically out of any of the Susano'o. I don't see how that would help against any of the Susano'o clones when her's was a combination of her resilience and her speed. You can't deny that. Tsunade was depicted as being on the higher end of the Gokage because she could fight offensively. Fighting offensively is much harder than fighting defensively yet Tsunade accomplished it.

I will agree that her own speed and evasion feats have a lot to be desired, but that's because of the circumstances she's been placed in. To be honest, she needed adequate speed and reactions to be able to slam a Susano'o clone who couldn't even react to her attack or to even get within range of Madara in the first place. Madara could easily defend against V2 Raikage's attack point-blank, so he's a very fast and reactive contender, so I find it difficult for Tsunade to be able to get within range of Madara if she wasn't fast in her own right. To be honest, do you see someone only a Tier above Sakura in speed being capable of safely getting within range of Madara without a scratch and force him to clone-swap and fight like a coward as a result or be able to blitz a Susano'o clone? I don't see it honestly.

Hype is Kishimoto's objective view of each of the character's strength. Each of the Sannin were depicted as equals through the Three-Way-DeadLock and Kishimoto depicted the Sannin as powerful multiple times. For instance, Kakashi actually believed Jiraiya was the only reason the Akatsuki chose not to target Naruto or when Obito literally praised Jiraiya and deemed himself worthy of the Sannin title when he occupied Pain for a noticeable period of time. Sannins were never depicted as being exponentially weaker than any of the Kage. No offense, but I'm not understanding where you got that implication.

The next part is complete denial of Sakura's evasion feats. Sasori manipulates Satetsu in respect to his opponent's abilities and the battlefield, so Sasori used his best combination attack against Sakura and ultimately failed. Satetsu's strong point also isn't its speed, but moreso, its unpredictability and ability to cover a wide range. It's why Konan's attacks were so effective against Obito or why Shino's bugs were considered a viable threat against Obito. Sakura also didn't evade Sasori's Satetsu, but also his best jutsu (100 puppets) which the Databook confirms that she successfully reacted to through Tsunade's evasive training. Tsunade's speed and taijutsu skill was even higher, so she'd reflect higher evasion feats overall.

I'm not saying she evades everything, but I feel as if most members here don't give credit where it is due. I'd like to see evidence that shows that Kishimoto actually depicted Tsunade as weak rather than using your subjective view of the manga to suggest why she's weak. From where I'm standing, I just don't see it.
 

Zexion~

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Not what I meant. I meant that she was the only one capable of fighting back against any of the Susano'o clones. The other Gokage were incapable of doing so. Mei had her ass beat, Gaara could only pull up a defense against their attacks, and not even Raikage was given the opportunity to dance around their attacks and deliver a clean blow like Tsunade did. Tsunade's had nothing to do with just being the strongest physically out of any of the Susano'o. I don't see how that would help against any of the Susano'o clones when her's was a combination of her resilience and her speed. You can't deny that. Tsunade was depicted as being on the higher end of the Gokage because she could fight offensively. Fighting offensively is much harder than fighting defensively yet Tsunade accomplished it.

I will agree that her own speed and evasion feats have a lot to be desired, but that's because of the circumstances she's been placed in. To be honest, she needed adequate speed and reactions to be able to slam a Susano'o clone who couldn't even react to her attack or to even get within range of Madara in the first place. Madara could easily defend against V2 Raikage's attack point-blank, so he's a very fast and reactive contender, so I find it difficult for Tsunade to be able to get within range of Madara if she wasn't fast in her own right. To be honest, do you see someone only a Tier above Sakura in speed being capable of safely getting within range of Madara without a scratch and force him to clone-swap and fight like a coward as a result or be able to blitz a Susano'o clone? I don't see it honestly.

Hype is Kishimoto's objective view of each of the character's strength. Each of the Sannin were depicted as equals through the Three-Way-DeadLock and Kishimoto depicted the Sannin as powerful multiple times. For instance, Kakashi actually believed Jiraiya was the only reason the Akatsuki chose not to target Naruto or when Obito literally praised Jiraiya and deemed himself worthy of the Sannin title when he occupied Pain for a noticeable period of time. Sannins were never depicted as being exponentially weaker than any of the Kage. No offense, but I'm not understanding where you got that implication.

The next part is complete denial of Sakura's evasion feats. Sasori manipulates Satetsu in respect to his opponent's abilities and the battlefield, so Sasori used his best combination attack against Sakura and ultimately failed. Satetsu's strong point also isn't its speed, but moreso, its unpredictability and ability to cover a wide range. It's why Konan's attacks were so effective against Obito or why Shino's bugs were considered a viable threat against Obito. Sakura also didn't evade Sasori's Satetsu, but also his best jutsu (100 puppets) which the Databook confirms that she successfully reacted to through Tsunade's evasive training. Tsunade's speed and taijutsu skill was even higher, so she'd reflect higher evasion feats overall.

I'm not saying she evades everything, but I feel as if most members here don't give credit where it is due. I'd like to see evidence that shows that Kishimoto actually depicted Tsunade as weak rather than using your subjective view of the manga to suggest why she's weak. From where I'm standing, I just don't see it.

Well you're up late :lol (jk time zones are lame)

Anyways I agree with most of what you're saying but circumstances are circumstances and thats all we have to go on usually with characters :lol be grateful your characters were lucky enough to have multiple (although Tsunade hasn't done a lot)

Id say the majority of the base overrates Tsunade :lol I may underrate her but its still skewed upwards, I'd say Kishi did a poor job portraying the Sannin as strong imo they became way too outdated way too quickly, and were overshadowed most of the series.

I will quote something directly though

The next part is complete denial of Sakura's evasion feats. Sasori manipulates Satetsu in respect to his opponent's abilities and the battlefield, so Sasori used his best combination attack against Sakura and ultimately failed

So you're telling me that the two moves that rendered Sakura completely useless were less effective than the slower and moer predictable ones she could avoid and knock back pretty easily. (still needed chiyo at first) The sand shower and sand stakes attacks would have hit sakura should he had chosen to use them again. However with shittry writing and not even an attempt at a reason Sasori chose to not only change attack styles but stick with the useless ones a lot longer than the ones that proved useful :lol thats kishi for ya
 

neosmith500

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So you're telling me that the two moves that rendered Sakura completely useless were less effective than the slower and moer predictable ones she could avoid and knock back pretty easily. (still needed chiyo at first) The sand shower and sand stakes attacks would have hit sakura should he had chosen to use them again. However with shittry writing and not even an attempt at a reason Sasori chose to not only change attack styles but stick with the useless ones a lot longer than the ones that proved useful :lol thats kishi for ya

This couldn't be more true , a thread can actually be made to depict each time kishi forced characters to make questionable decisions merely for the sake of linear plot progression.

If sasori turned one of his giant cubes into stakes then changed the other to sand drizzle , now way would sakura counter such a combination attack.

It was more like kishi/sasori used the best combination attack that he knew Sakura could counter , not the best one sasori could've utilized.
 

Curse Mark

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This couldn't be more true , a thread can actually be made to depict each time kishi forced characters to make questionable decisions merely for the sake of linear plot progression.

If sasori turned one of his giant cubes into stakes then changed the other to sand drizzle , now way would sakura counter such a combination attack.

It was more like kishi/sasori used the best combination attack that he knew Sakura could counter , not the best one sasori could've utilized.

NB should rewrite the manga in a better way. More character development. Actual violence (not gore), death of characters main or not main. (How does only one ninja in K11 die?) etc.
 

Joshutsu

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NB should rewrite the manga in a better way. More character development. Actual violence (not gore), death of characters main or not main. (How does only one ninja in K11 die?) etc.

nb should never put their hands on the naruto series, will only make it worse. One biased creator wrecked it, how much more the likes of everyone here.
 

RedRobin

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Well you're up late :lol (jk time zones are lame)

Anyways I agree with most of what you're saying but circumstances are circumstances and thats all we have to go on usually with characters :lol be grateful your characters were lucky enough to have multiple (although Tsunade hasn't done a lot)

Id say the majority of the base overrates Tsunade :lol I may underrate her but its still skewed upwards, I'd say Kishi did a poor job portraying the Sannin as strong imo they became way too outdated way too quickly, and were overshadowed most of the series.

I will quote something directly though

Lol Ok Zex. Sure.

@Red Robin show feats of her evading ANYTHING during the Madara battle which is what i'm arguing.

She could have been miles from Madara's Katon while the Gokage just stood there dumbfounded while she saved them. But again tell me how that feat does not matter. Please, I love that argument.
 
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NarutoX28

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Well you're up late :lol (jk time zones are lame)

Anyways I agree with most of what you're saying but circumstances are circumstances and thats all we have to go on usually with characters :lol be grateful your characters were lucky enough to have multiple (although Tsunade hasn't done a lot)

Id say the majority of the base overrates Tsunade :lol I may underrate her but its still skewed upwards, I'd say Kishi did a poor job portraying the Sannin as strong imo they became way too outdated way too quickly, and were overshadowed most of the series.

I will quote something directly though

I'm confused why you're discrediting the circumstances she's been in. It's like saying Minato is slow and useless because he easily got trashed by a Juubi Jin, but anyone can see that fighting someone significantly higher than your level will cause you to look like trash. The same applies to Tsunade except in spite of that, she performed very well, but fighting someone decisively above you is going to depict you as weaker than you actually are.

I don't necessarily think any of the Sannin were overshadowed. Both were depicted very strong and displayed newer abilities to deal with Part 2 Power Scaling. Kishimoto still depicted them as being very powerful and has Tsunade portrayed to be teh stronger of the Gokage, so I don't think they were overshadowed in the least. The only ones that did overshadow them were people with haxed abilities such as the Rinnegan and Susano'o for the most part, but I wouldn't go as far as to claim that they were overshadowed to the point where Tsunade is exponentially weaker than any of the Gokage. Quite frankly, that's just severely underrating her capabilities.

So you're telling me that the two moves that rendered Sakura completely useless were less effective than the slower and moer predictable ones she could avoid and knock back pretty easily. (still needed chiyo at first) The sand shower and sand stakes attacks would have hit sakura should he had chosen to use them again. However with shittry writing and not even an attempt at a reason Sasori chose to not only change attack styles but stick with the useless ones a lot longer than the ones that proved useful :lol thats kishi for ya

Sasori initially used a different approach because Chiyo didn't have a problem reacting to his faster, but linear attacks which is why Sasori focused on covering a larger range and using a more unpredictable fighting style because it's entirely useless to rely on speed when your opponent can easily react to your faster attacks. That's essentially why Kakashi had Shino focus on a technique that covered a larger area because Obito was easily defending against faster attacks such as Garouga.

I wouldn't necessarily call it shitty writing. Kishimoto explained exactly why Sasori used these techniques in the Databook. I think you're under the assumption that "faster" means better when Kishimoto clearly never depicted faster attacks always being more viable than wider range or unpredictable attacks.
 

Lord Tywin

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Tsunade is massively inferior to Gaara, Ay, and Onoki.
 

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Tsunade is massively inferior to Gaara, Ay, and Onoki.

Thats funny she did just as much in the fight against Madara as Onoki yet is massively inferior.

She tagged Madara more times than Ay ever did yet she is massively inferior.

She did better than Gaara in the 5 susano fight yet is massively inferior.

Ok.
 

Lord Tywin

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Thats funny she did just as much in the fight against Madara as Onoki yet is massively inferior.

She tagged Madara more times than Ay ever did yet she is massively inferior.

She did better than Gaara in the 5 susano fight yet is massively inferior.

Ok.
You pit her against those 3 and they shit on her. All Tsunade had for her in Madara's fight was the fact that her regeneration rendered most of his attacks useless. She was useful in the fight, but in a head to head fight with those 3 she has no chance of ever winning.
 

RedRobin

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You pit her against those 3 and they shit on her. All Tsunade had for her in Madara's fight was the fact that her regeneration rendered most of his attacks useless. She was useful in the fight, but in a head to head fight with those 3 she has no chance of ever winning.

How are you just ignoring that and not counting that towards how equal she is to the rest of the gokage?

Here the thing KRATOS, she may not win but if Madara couldnt kill easily her then the Gokage arent going to have an easier time. You see how your points do not match up?

She was one of the most useful people in that fight next to Onoki but then to turn around and say she is massively inferior to the rest of the gokage makes no sense. Like zero sense.
 

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You pit her against those 3 and they shit on her. All Tsunade had for her in Madara's fight was the fact that her regeneration rendered most of his attacks useless. She was useful in the fight, but in a head to head fight with those 3 she has no chance of ever winning.

Except her feats such as getting within range of Madara and forcing him to clone-swap and fight like a coward was done with no injuries. Her resilience wasn't the main reason she could accomplish what she did.

As RedRobin clarified, if Madara had a difficult time killing her, how would any of the Gokage kill her just as easily as what you're suggesting? The only who literally has a clean-shot is Onoki and it'd take a decent amount of effort to pull it off.
 

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Tsunade is massively inferior to Gaara, Ay, and Onoki.

agreed but all of them takes massive dump on kakuzu too so the point here is moot
 

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Thats funny she did just as much in the fight against Madara as Onoki yet is massively inferior.

She tagged Madara more times than Ay ever did yet she is massively inferior.

She did better than Gaara in the 5 susano fight yet is massively inferior.

Ok.

Gaara did better than her again the susanno.
 
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