alone against these israeli soldiers, armed with courage, shot in the back
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CrimsonReaper
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yeah but that was long time ago but yeah america is with israel so the middle east pretty much has no chance that's why as i said before Israel can do anything it wants and no one can stop them.
yeah but Mossad is one of these shitty agencies like the Cia etc.
The one with powers are always the one who bully
@bold Don't open Pandora's box :lol
guys crimsonreaper has no idea what she's talking about lets give it a rest just like any argument there's two sides to the story and you cant change someone's opinion over the internet. give her neg rep and move on haha im a jew and I hate no one but I believe in protecting our people against persecution that's been going on for hundreds of years. I guess that makes my opinion bias
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I strongly agree with this quote from another source about this whole issue. I mean the principle behind the bold quote:
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@conspirator, man, jews have always lived good and respectfull lives in islamic countries, along with christians, in morocco, syria, lebanon,...even in palestine before the occupation, jews were at peace with muslims, and all of them were united by the traditions of the countries they live in, and all of them were arabs, arab jews, arab christians, arab muslims
even now in palestine, not only the muslims are being persecuted, but also the christians, and they are enduring this together
religion has never been the core of this problem.
their are lots of jews who are against Israel.
another thing, the palestinians are willing to forget all of the injustices they have got from israel, they just want to be recognized by the united nations, and to actually keep their homes, but Israel keeps on expanding its lands, they get a land, they take out the palestinian owner, or take him to prison, they just keep doing it
even now in palestine, not only the muslims are being persecuted, but also the christians, and they are enduring this together
religion has never been the core of this problem.
their are lots of jews who are against Israel.
another thing, the palestinians are willing to forget all of the injustices they have got from israel, they just want to be recognized by the united nations, and to actually keep their homes, but Israel keeps on expanding its lands, they get a land, they take out the palestinian owner, or take him to prison, they just keep doing it
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I vehemently disagree. Religion is the core of this problem. How can we tell this? If Israel was an Islamic nation, but behaved in the exact same manner it has done up until now, killed the same number of Palestinians, caused the same number of people to be displaced etc I seriously doubt it would be uniformly condemned as strongly by Muslim nations all the world. For example, another posted mentioned "Black September" where the Pakistani army killed 25000 Palestinians. Yet they still "support" Palestine against Israel. Hypocrisy, much? What can we conclude from that? That Pakistan only "supports" Palestine because they hate Israel and Jews, not because they genuinely care about the well-being of the innocent Palestinians affected by Israel. Anyway, I digress. The point is, that the Israel/Palestine conflict is merely a continuation of the numerous conflicts in documented history between Muslims and Jews-the bloodshed between them predates the whole modern day Israel/Palestine conflict.
In fact, I believe it's not unlike the "Kashmir Conflict" between India and Pakistan on that front. What I mean is that that the present day conflict is merely another chapter in the violence and bloodshed between Hindus and Muslims that has occurred since the Mughal invasion. Same story with Israel/Palestine and Muslims/Jews.
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you're confusing everything, we are not talking about the governments policies here, because it is all a matter of interests, and it has definitly NOTHING to do with religion, I don't know about this pakistan incident, a government does not care about religion, justice...it only cares about securing position, and making money, gaining power...
for example saudi arabia's government is a US and Israel dog, this is common knowledge, that doesn't mean that the Saoudi Arabia's citizens are all sold, wherever there is injustice, people should condemn it, please stop making it a religious problem.
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Hamas wouldn't stop but people wouldn't mind israel as much as now, i don't hate jews and im pretty sure a lot of people don't there's always people who will hate on a race or a religion if they cooperated from the start rather than stalling negotiations and bombing palestine, the situation would've been totally different, the only reason lots of people hate jews now is because of Israel.
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You mean that's not what the religions preach?(to hate each other) Maybe so. Doesn't change the fact that relations between those groups of people(Muslims and Jews) have been terrible for the long time. It also doesn't change the fact that a large reason neighboring nations of Israel/Palestine make a song and dance against Israel is because they are Jews. That was my point. I never said what Israel is doing is not wrong(it obviously is wrong and should be condemned), but don't think for one second that this is just some one-sided conflict, and that the Middle East are a bunch of innocent little fairies who are the victims of the Satanic Israel. Lastly, this is a human rights issue, but it arose from religious sentiments, so yes I do believe it's a religious issue.
"If they cooperated from the start".
Well, given the astounding hypocrisy of most of these nations regarding the conflict(the Pakistan/Black September incident being one of them) I really don't think it matters how nice or cordial Israel had been-those nations would have wanted them "wiped off the map" from the beginning.
Not that it matters, I'm pretty sure Jews would still be disliked with or without Israel given their history.
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CrimsonReaper
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I don't know on what you support your claims, but I can tell you that one religion that I know very well doesn't preach hate, of course that is what I believe. history testifies that jews lived in harmony with muslims and christians in arab countries. I'm from morocco, and I know the history of this country, religion or ethnicity was never a problem
but as crimsonreaper said, respect for the opinion
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This is only to show you there's no black and white.
I'm not gonna say who's wrong and who's right, this debate lacks objectivity, from both sides.
But I do want to clear is that Palestinians from a very young age, learn how to hate Israeli, their basic education, from early age, is based on hating us. if it's from inside their home, or inside schools, this is what they learn, while ago i saw a post about parents who filmed a little Palestinian girl about age 4-6, in the video the parents asked " who are we gonna kill?", and the little girl with a huge innocent smile raised a knife and said " kill the Israels". and for that reason young girls and boys go out and stab Israeli people. and tell me, in another 10 or 15 years that innocent little girl with the knife, will go outside, and try to stab someone, and for protection millatery force or police force will catch the girl, or kill her or arrest her for an attempt of murder, she will throw her whole future, this is going in most extremist home, and schools. and expands as time goes.
and I'm might get stabbed and get killed outside, because I wanted to go to work, and for what? because i'm an Israeli. not because what I am as an individual, and you may not believe it, but I actually don't hate the little girl, I don't hate Arabs, I don't care for that kind of stuff, hating based on Ethnicity is just not good enough to hate anyone.
BUT I will hate somebody who will walk on the street and try to stab me, and I will protect myself by any means if necessary.
Do you really believe that because he lives in a country in which many jews were killed he should not be allowed to express his opinion? btw many Arabs were in favor of Nazi Germany...
btw. Jews started to migrate long before the Nazi Party in Germany was founded... and about a Million were expelled from "Arab-Countries" the Arab League decided in 1946 to boycott all Jewish citizens living in Arab countries. With the United Nations adopting the Partition Plan (November 1947) riots broke across the Arab world against Jewish communities. Jewish shops and synagogues were ransacked and burned, hundreds of Jews were killed and thousands were imprisoned.
With the declaration of the establishment of the State of Israel in May 1948, the Arab League's Political Committee convened and formulated recommendations for all Arab and Muslim countries which specified how to treat Jews in those countries. Among other things the document stated the Jews should be deprived of their citizenship as they were considered citizens of the newly established Jewish state. Assets were seized, bank accounts were frozen and property worth millions of dollars was nationalized. Jews were excluded from government ministries, restricted entry to public service causing many to lose their means of subsistence.
The anti-Jewish trend only increased over time, and an organized plan of oppression and persecution was implemented against the Jews in Arab countries. Between 1948 and 1951, about 850,000 Jews were expelled or, as explained above, forced out of Arab countries, and became refugees. In fact, a two-way migration of populations began, along with the creation of two different refugee groups. The Arab nations, led by the Arab League, were responsible for causing both groups of refugees, Jews and Palestinians.
The ratio between the two refugee groups was 2:3, with the Palestinian group numbering around 600,000 as opposed to the Jewish refugees, which numbered about 850,000 (up until 1968), and their descendents now account for about one half of the population of the State of Israel.
Another important aspect of this subject is that of lost property. A 2008 study estimated that the ratio of lost property stands at almost 1:2; the Palestinian refugees lost property totaling roughly 450 million dollars (in today's prices around $3.9 billion) whereas the Jewish refugees lost property totaling 700 million dollars (around $6 billion dollars).
Algeria: 98 % Muslims
Comoros: 98 % Muslims
Djibouti: 94 % Muslims
Egypt: 90 % Muslims
Iraq: 95 % Muslims
Jordan: 93 % Muslims
... I am tired of looking it up, but be my guest and tell me in which Arab Countries or Countries of the Middle East the Christian population is over 10 %... and then go on and tell me in which of those countries the Christian population hasnt decreased monumentally during the last 100 Years... Why do you think this happened? Did you know that in many "muslim" countries you are put into prison if you want to leave "islam"... young children are indoctrinated with hatred against non muslims...
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in Saudi-Arabia like in many other muslim-countries Christians arent allowed to practice their religion openly, and are treated like criminals...
really? Islam means peace? I always thought it translates into submission... but maybe the dicionary is broken... And well insulting other ppl - is this the way u were raised or does it come from "the religion of peace" and why do you think Muslims always have to empathize on "the religion of peace" shouldn't the ppl who believe in Allah show with their acions that they are peaceful?
do you really think that all terrorists should be killed? I guess Israel is doing a great job, isnt it... maybe the solution could be an education free of islamistic bullshit..
relly have u been there? How do you know that? and even if that were true what about the invasion into spain and france... or eastern europe... India was attacked over a long period of time... Persians were attacked... so I guess u just believe what u are told without using ur own brain.
if a woman in Pakistan is raped why is it the fault of the woman? and why are they stoned to death... which is true for many other states of the "the religion of peace"
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How could that be if Islam says that Christians whose lands are invaded by Muslims and conquered by force are not allowed to build new churches or even to renovate the destroyed ones? This was what Islam said, and this was the verdict of Umar Ibn al-Khattab who was known as the Just Caliph, as he was called by Muslims.
Tell us where equality is if a non-Muslim’s testimony is not acceptable or even allowed in court against Muslims or even against other non-Muslims, as the most famous Muslim scholars indicate? And of course, non-Muslims do not have the right to assume leading jobs in the state.
Tell us where the justice and equality is in Islam when a Muslim’s life is spared even if he kills a Christian intentionally while a Muslim may only be required to die if he assassinates another Muslim. The reason, as Muhammad said is that "only Muslims’ blood is regarded equal." Thus, no Muslim should be killed for murdering a non-Muslim. If Muhammad says–according to all scholars–that "only Muslims’ blood is equal" (have the same value), we have the right to ask, "Where, then, is equality?" Muhammad says to us, "I meant the equality between a Muslim and another Muslim and not between a Muslim and a non-Muslim."
On the other hand, we will see that if a non-Muslim merely curses a Muslim, he must either be sentenced to death or be converted to Islam! However, if a Muslim murders a non-Muslim, he will only pay a fine.
Abu Al-Ala Al-Mawdudi’s View: Discrimination is Necessary!
In his book, "Rights of Non-Muslims in Islamic States" which has been translated into many languages, this great scholar asserts that we should distinguish between the rights of non-Muslims and the rights of Muslims. On pp. 2-3, Abu Ala al-Mawdudi says:
"An Islamic state ... is by its very nature bound to distinguish between Muslims and non-Muslims, and, in an honest and upright manner, not only publicly declares this state of affairs but also precisely states what rights will be conferred upon its non-Muslim citizens and which of them will not be enjoyed by them."
Now let us analyze the rights which are not supposed to be conferred on non-Muslims We will witness the worst practices of racial discrimination and religious segregation.
A Muslim Must Not Be Sentenced To Death For Murdering A Non Believer
Muhammad himself gives justification for this. He says only Muslims’ have blood that is alike; thus a Muslim should not be put to death for murdering a non-Muslim but must pay a blood feud to the family of the murdered man. As expected, the great Muslim legists and scholars such as Ibn Timiyya, Ibn Hazm, Al-Shafii, Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya, Al-Jalalan, Al-Bukhari and Muslim agree on this important point.
Ibn Timiyya
Ibn Timiyya emphasizes forcefully in Volume 14,
"Nothing in the law of Muhammad states that the blood of the disbeliever is equal to the blood of the Muslim because faith is necessary for equality. The people of the Covenant (Jews or Christians) do not believe in Muhammad and Islam, thus their blood and the Muslim’s blood cannot be equal. These are distinctive texts which indicate that a Muslim is not to be put to death for (murdering) one of the people of the covenant or an unbeliever, but a free Muslim must be killed for a free Muslim, regardless of the race" (Vol. 14, p. 85).
He reiterates the same statement (Vol. 20, p. 282) that a Muslim must not be killed for one of the people of the covenant; that is, a Christian or a Jew
The Imam al-Shafii
In section one of "Ahkam al-Qur’an" ("The Ordinances of the Qur’an", page 275), he says: "A Muslim is not to be killed for an unbeliever". Then he says (page 284),
"If a believer murders an unbeliever, he has to pay blood feud to the Jew or Christian which is one-third of the blood feud of the believer, though Malik says it must be one half."
Ibn Timiyya inclines towards Malik’s opinion and indicates (Vol. 20, p. 385) that:
"The blood feud should be one half because this is what was transmitted by tradition about the prophet Muhammad and as the Sunnis said also."
Whether the blood feud is one third or one half is not important. What really matters is that a Muslim is not to be put to death for a non-Muslim. Despite the disagreement among the Muslim scholars about the actual amount of the blood feud to be paid, the important thing is that the blood feud of the unbeliever is less than the blood feud of the believer, and that a Muslim is not to be put to death for a non-Muslim.
Of course, if a Muslim murders another Muslim, the murderer must be sentenced to death because he assassinated another Muslim. According to al-Shafii, in this case the victim’s relatives have the option either to accept a blood feud or to kill the criminal. However, if the murdered is non-Muslim, his relatives have no choice but to accept the blood feud ("The Ordinances of the Qur’an", Sect. I, pp. 180, 279).
Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya
In his book, "Zad-al-Maad" (Sec. III, p.124), he says:
"Muslim blood is alike (has the same value). A Muslim is not to be put to death for killing an unbeliever."
"Sahih" of Al-Bukhari and" Sahih of Muslim"
These are two authorized books acknowledged by all Islam scholars pertaining to Muhammad’s sayings. We read in Part 9 of al-Bukhari’s book (p. 16,) "A Muslim is not to be sentenced to death for an unbeliever." He stresses that this is also the opinion of Ali Ibn Abi Talib.
In "Sahih of Muslim" interpreted by Nawawi (Part 4, p. 244), we read,
"A Muslim is not to be sentenced to death for one of the people of the covenant nor for a free man or a slave."
How would you react if ppl would shoot rockets at you, try to drive you over or try to stab you with a knife?
People hate Israel because they are indoctrinated to hate Jews. I bet most of the Jew-Haters havent even met one or given a chance to get to know him...
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CrimsonReaper
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you give us some selected quotes of islamic books, I can't argue with you because I am not a scholar, and I'm to lazy to go make some research but perhaps, if you are truly searching for the truth, you should make a debate with someone who has at least as much knowledge as you in this matter, and see what arguments he has, because I'm sure their is.
but what I know for sure is that:
- before the colonization, in morocco their were many kinds of justice systems and tribunals : one for the muslims with islamic law, one for the jews with their religions law, and one for the foreign people. and morocco is a muslim country.
jews were not persecuted in this muslim country
- I have always been taught since my childhood and i always heard the scholars say this : killing someone is like killing all of humanity, and healing someone is like healing all of humanity. Now killing someone makes you very qualified for hell fire, imagine killing all of humanity. and this is in the quran, what we believe is the words of god.
-but even as someone who knows very little about his religion, and I'm ashamed, I know that ibn quayim al jawziya was not a scholar, he was a philosopher, but I can't say anything for the other arguments you proposed because, again, I don't have the tools and knowledge
- and what you give is the opinion of some scholars (I can't affirm if they wrote it, but I trust you), you have to actually look for all of the known scholars opinions on the matter, and study the contexts of these affirmations, and then see what the majority of the scholar's community have agreed to, because what you give us is not religion, it is only a legal opinion made by some scholars, they are human, they can be wrong.
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ppl hated jews long before the partition plan... because of greed and jealousy... Well I would pity the Arab population in Gaza and the West Bank... but with all the hatred and murder they even raise their children with... and the effort they put into killing non muslims..
South Africa and India are exaples for the creation of an independent State.
Have u ever read the Hamas Charter?
Article 13 says: "initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement."
Its all about "the religion of peace" killing, terror and murder...
Now tell me how could it be possible to make peace with someone whose only goal it is to harm you in every possible way they can?!