[Discussion] Do you consider all feminists bad??

[QueenPrincess Legendary]

They're just standing up for women's rights, nothing wrong with that. Just feminists who resort to violence, I believe are bad

 

[Anorien16]

Your post implied it. If you didn't mean it, then disregard it.

I never stated that more women would mean better female leads. I said it would mean that they would create characters themselves and understand the challenges that go with the development cycles. Once you get into the process, then progress begins. Shouting at developers isn't going to solve anything. That was my point.

Which ones are those? There are only (roughly about) 5 or 6 female characters that even fit that (phenomenal) domain if we go by the story-heavy games. The rest of them are insufferably bad and tropes peronified and all kinds of over-compensating terribles in-between. Contrary to the popular gamer's (or anyone's for that matter) belief, it really isn't an opinion. Every well-written character needs to have certain merits to it, which boil down to narrative and plot inconsistency that leads to dynamism (dynamic characters), narrative traction in the hands of a character, verisimilitude, moral relativism and a few other technicalities. Very few characters are dynamic, and even fewer, well-written.

No flat character is well-written. Ever. Take the examples of Final Fantasy Females. God, they are a steeple of mediocrity and terrible trope writing. Shining example of it. They never pull the plot. They don't add anything decent to it. They are flat, anime caricatures that fit manga and anime stereotypes perfectly as they never drive a plot. Tifa is literally - pardon my language - a walking pair of breasts. Aerith/Aeris, a character that is impeccably good and Yuna has a one-note Martyr complex written all over her, and like Aerith, she's so good that it's almost impossible to relate to her on any level.

They are all caricatures; characters with exaggerated qualities that go far, and absurdly and unrealistically, beyond the threshold of human psychology. That makes them terrible and insufferable as they have little or no human flaws. Their plot value is meagre at best and shallow at worst and leaves no tension, moments of catharsis or strength in challanging human perspectives - they merely are added just for the sake of addition.

FF fans' sole defense in their favour is that, 'they have charm' - and that, my friend, is not something that opens a window into the well-written domain. For a well-written character, you require flaws, human flaws, like jealously, anger, irrationality, lust, greed etc ... venial or cardinal sins even. Not merely at the surface value, but in their actuality. Any character that don't have flaws that drive them and make them commit errors won't be human, and thus, would be badly written.

Furthermore, if they are in the main seat (Lightning / Claire), they are constructed as a meagre part of the plot and not the other way around. They showcase the bad trend of females that over-compensate as men with female skins. The tough-girl syndrome plagues just about all forms of media and it's a product of lazy writing with garish, unnecessary plot devices that try hard to make such characters relevant.

I think I have given sufficient examples here. You can apply the merits and see for yourself.

Okey ... Now can you name some well written male characters that survive the standards you have applied to the female ones.

 

[Conspirator.]

No, you can't generalize any group of people. There have been some good feminists in the past, such as Simone de Beauvoir, and there are good feminists today who were/are very egalitarian in their approach. It's the extremist feminist whose goal is superiority rather than equality that get under people's skin. Those people deserve the response in the spoiler:

Spoiler

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[Yubel]

Saying not all feminist are bad is like saying not all terrorists are bad or not all racists are bad. It depends on how you look at it, they're probably nice to you because you're not their target. I know two feminist teachers, both lesbians who were very nice to me and I liked them. However they were complete ****s to alot of guys and some of my friends, messed their grades up. Now I don't really judge them because to me they helped me a bunch of times so it depends on how you look at it.

 

[ZK]

Your post implied it. If you didn't mean it, then disregard it.

Implied it, did I? Is there a chance you just looked for subtext so hard that you found it?

I never stated that more women would mean better female leads. I said it would mean that they would create characters themselves and understand the challenges that go with the development cycles. Once you get into the process, then progress begins. Shouting at developers isn't going to solve anything. That was my point.

So we need more women in video games because only women can write 'good' female characters?
Do I need a Mongolian man with big ambitions to write Genghis Khan? What?
There is such a thing as imagination. Tolkien wasn't an Elf or a woman, but he wrote Arwen and Galadriel very well. Jane Austen wasn't a man, but I wouldn't call Mr. Darcy a flat character.
I could go on.

Which ones are those? There are only (roughly about) 5 or 6 female characters that even fit that (phenomenal) domain if we go by the story-heavy games. The rest of them are insufferably bad and tropes peronified and all kinds of over-compensating terribles in-between. Contrary to the popular gamer's (or anyone's for that matter) belief, it really isn't an opinion. Every well-written character needs to have certain merits to it, which boil down to narrative and plot inconsistency that leads to dynamism (dynamic characters), narrative traction in the hands of a character, verisimilitude, moral relativism and a few other technicalities. Very few characters are dynamic, and even fewer, well-written.

It really isn't opinion? Says who? You want to provide some scientific research to support that stance? No? Then it's most definitely an opinion. Litterature isn't a science. It's not even a soft science. It's litterature. Its value is decided by people. I'd be willing to accept the 'expert argument,' but unless you have a doctorate or similar in literature or literary history...
Still, let's go with what you've written. Most characters are 'insufferably bad.' The works. Answer this, then:

Okey ... Now can you name some well written male characters that survive the standards you have applied to the female ones.

This doesn't seem to be a 'feminist' problem. By your standards its a very general literary problem. Not that I believe your standards have any merits to them. If people like the characters of a book and believe they are good character... I'd say they're good characters. Tropes? Maybe, but that applies to characters of all genders. Shit, it applied to almost all plot-lines as well. You're seeing problems where there are none.

No flat character is well-written. Ever. Take the examples of Final Fantasy Females. God, they are a steeple of mediocrity and terrible trope writing. Shining example of it. They never pull the plot. They don't add anything decent to it. They are flat, anime caricatures that fit manga and anime stereotypes perfectly as they never drive a plot. Tifa is literally - pardon my language - a walking pair of breasts. Aerith/Aeris, a character that is impeccably good and Yuna has a one-note Martyr complex written all over her, and like Aerith, she's so good that it's almost impossible to relate to her on any level.

I bet there's a ton of Final Fantasy fans out there who would love to tell you why you're wrong. I don't play Final Fantasy. I never have. I couldn't tell you if the females in that series pull the plot or not, but I'm willing to bet that they do.
Manga and anime stereotypes? What would those be? Big breasts? Slim waists? How many fat people do you see in anime/manga? How many people with pimples? It's not a representation of real life. It's not supposed to be.

Every single 'trope' and 'stereotype' you see in Anita's videos have male counterparts.

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Walking pair of breasts? Like the walking hunks of muscle and grunts you see in so many video games?

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Every single problem you can find with some female character I can find with a male character. Are some of them flat? Sure. Are some of them too good or too evil to be realistic? Sure. Since when was total realism a requirement. You're on a Naruto forum. You know how unrealistic these characters are? But I still think they're good characters.
No matter their six pack or cup size.

They are all caricatures; characters with exaggerated qualities that go far, and absurdly and unrealistically, beyond the threshold of human psychology. That makes them terrible and insufferable as they have little or no human flaws. Their plot value is meagre at best and shallow at worst and leaves no tension, moments of catharsis or strength in challanging human perspectives - they merely are added just for the sake of addition.

Why is this a problem? If you're looking for totally realistic characters you should go live life. Games have exaggerated elements, unrealistic elements. Sometimes they have absurd elements.
Moments of catharsis... is that what you are looking for when you play Pac Man? The collective works of Tolstoj hidden somewhere?

FF fans' sole defense in their favour is that, 'they have charm' - and that, my friend, is not something that opens a window into the well-written domain. For a well-written character, you require flaws, human flaws, like jealously, anger, irrationality, lust, greed etc ... venial or cardinal sins even. Not merely at the surface value, but in their actuality. Any character that don't have flaws that drive them and make them commit errors won't be human, and thus, would be badly written.

Sure it is. That's exactly what opens the window into the well-written domain. I like character X. I believe character X is a good character. You think I'm wrong? Why? Because you don't like character X?
Vanilla versus chocolate. It's not a competition. It's not a debate. It's just stupid.
Again, you're looking too deeply into video games. Some games may seek to include deep elements in their games. I have been very touched by video games.
Others don't. Sometimes that's not the point. Good games don't stem from good characters. Counter Strike is a good game.

Master Chief of Halo says maybe two sentences every game. I still think he's an incredible character. Cortana only makes him better. Cardinal sins? Don't make me laugh.

Furthermore, if they are in the main seat (Lightning / Claire), they are constructed as a meagre part of the plot and not the other way around. They showcase the bad trend of females that over-compensate as men with female skins. The tough-girl syndrome plagues just about all forms of media and it's a product of lazy writing with garish, unnecessary plot devices that try hard to make such characters relevant.

So women being 'damsels in distress' are a problem, but women who overcompensate and become 'masculine' are also a problem.
What isn't? Tough-girl syndrome plagues the media? They can't be tough, they can't be soft. Seems like it's rough to be a woman in video games if they have to live up to your standards.
How about you describe someone that lives up to these demands?

I think I have given sufficient examples here. You can apply the merits and see for yourself.

You've given me yet another list of 'problems' you have with these characters. You've yet to answer my first question: what's your take on a solution?

 

[BLAZE]

Saying not all feminist are bad is like saying not all terrorists are bad or not all racists are bad.

What the hell.Comparing Feminists to bold

Feminism is a range of movements and ideologies that share a common goal: to define, establish, and achieve equal political, economic, cultural, personal, and social rights for women. This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment.

So if your/my sister or mother wants equal right in society as you and me you will brand her as racists and terrorists :lol

 

[Yubel]

What the hell.Comparing Feminists to bold

So if my sister or mother wants equal right in society as you will brand her as racists and terrorists :lol

Way to nitpick whatever is convenient for your argument in my comment, read the whole thing. Also to be fair feminists are racist as hell, they always hate on white males, why they haven't been called out on this while being in politics is a mystery to me.

 

[Conspirator.]

Saying not all feminist are bad is like saying not all terrorists are bad or not all racists are bad. It depends on how you look at it, they're probably nice to you because you're not their target. I know two feminist teachers, both lesbians who were very nice to me and I liked them. However they were complete ****s to alot of guys and some of my friends, messed their grades up. Now I don't really judge them because to me they helped me a bunch of times so it depends on how you look at it.

Hey man. Racists are unequivocally bad. Terrorists are unequivocally bad. Feminists are not unequivocally bad. Therein lies the difference between the former two and the latter, and why your analogy is terrible. Have a nice life.

 

[BLAZE]

Way to nitpick whatever is convenient for your argument in my comment, read the whole thing.
Also to be fair feminists are racist as hell, they always hate on white males.

i read it and pointed out the part which was BS :lol
Making a horrendous statement by comparing anyone who wants equal rights to racists and terrorists[dosen't make sense whatsoever] may sounds cool to you not to me or any sane person

 

[Jack Spicer]

Generalizing people into one group based on the action of some is stupid and wrong.

 

[CrimsonReaper]

Hey man. Racists are unequivocally bad. Terrorists are unequivocally bad. Feminists are not unequivocally bad. Therein lies the difference between the former two and the latter, and why your analogy is terrible. Have a nice life.

What the hell.Comparing Feminists to bold

So if your/my sister or mother wants equal right in society as you and me you will brand her as racists and terrorists :lol

he's an idiot.

 

[shelke]

So we need more women in video games because only women can write 'good' female characters?
Do I need a Mongolian man with big ambitions to write Genghis Khan? What?
There is such a thing as imagination. Tolkien wasn't an Elf or a woman, but he wrote Arwen and Galadriel very well. Jane Austen wasn't a man, but I wouldn't call Mr. Darcy a flat character.
I could go on.

That doesn't even make any sense. Austen works on Irony. Her plots literally dictate that. She tackles very different issues; predominately marriage and societal pressures on women in that era. Are (some of) her characters well-written? Yes. Most of them can be considered as 'moving towards developing'. That would be a third form of characters. At least, try to pick out works that create some sort of analogy for games. Picking her makes little to no sense.

There are two types of stories: one, where Narrative drives the characters and the other where characters drive the narrative. For the former, characters do not need to be well-written. For example, everyone knows Charles Dickens' wrote Flat Caricatures. But, it's the plot and the narrative scheme that is the strength of his novels. His characters do not need to be well-written as his narrative scheme and choice are very different.

It really isn't opinion? Says who? You want to provide some scientific research to support that stance? No? Then it's most definitely an opinion. Litterature isn't a science. It's not even a soft science. It's litterature. Its value is decided by people. I'd be willing to accept the 'expert argument,' but unless you have a doctorate or similar in literature or literary history...

I have studied Critical thought and am a Literature major. So, you are talking to someone who knows the ins and outs of Literature. You can find countless examples in works concerning Emotions pulled through narrative, syuzhet and fabula history in narrative schemes through Russian formalism, Humanist philosophy that took root in the early part of the 20th century to extrapolate on authorial intentions versus the works' scrutiny in isolation, history of cinema in regards to narratives, long criticism on Satan (Paradise Lost) via countless critics: John Carey being my absolute favourite who touches the idea of 'Depth' in characters and what it encapsulates.

You can even touch upon Aristotle and Plato if you desire. Albeit, that is a very different domain. Evolution of Modern Drama and the onset of a very different form of tragedy. Samuel Jonson in his general criticisms towards poetry, drama etc. Alexander Pope in his essay of man, as to which work carries itself through time. There are, in fact, countless models that combine cognition, emotions and narrative schemes to discuss characters. All you have to do is look around. Yes, so there are some merits to good-writing and well-written characters. No matter how much people deny it. And gamers and anime lovers seem to be the fools of this story.

Still, let's go with what you've written. Most characters are 'insufferably bad.' The works. Answer this, then:

This doesn't seem to be a 'feminist' problem. By your standards its a very general literary problem. Not that I believe your standards have any merits to them. If people like the characters of a book and believe they are good character... I'd say they're good characters. Tropes? Maybe, but that applies to characters of all genders. Shit, it applied to almost all plot-lines as well. You're seeing problems where there are none.

I bet there's a ton of Final Fantasy fans out there who would love to tell you why you're wrong. I don't play Final Fantasy. I never have. I couldn't tell you if the females in that series pull the plot or not, but I'm willing to bet that they do.

It automatically becomes ones when poor and unrealistic representation are at its core and the subjects are female characters. Isn't this what feminism is - rectifying problems that concerns females? @Bold Why are you so curious then? You are more than welcome to believe whatever you want.

All stories are cliches more or less. It's their execution that truly matters. When a character literally starts embodying Cliches, then it creates a lot of problems for the plot, I'm afraid.

Well, they are a very vocal community with very poor tastes. I wouldn't be surprised if they started defending Tifa of all the characters. You haven't played them, but you are willing to bet that they do? I have played VII, VIII - I am currently playing IX - X, XII, XIII, and a bit of XIII-2. And I would challenge anyone to prove his nonsense that FF females are even remotely bearable, let alone examples of writing nirvana. Are they useful to the gameplay? Yes, more or less. Are they useful to the plot? **** no.

Manga and anime stereotypes? What would those be? Big breasts? Slim waists? How many fat people do you see in anime/manga? How many people with pimples? It's not a representation of real life. It's not supposed to be.

Every single 'trope' and 'stereotype' you see in Anita's videos have male counterparts.

You must be registered for see links

Walking pair of breasts? Like the walking hunks of muscle and grunts you see in so many video games?

You must be registered for see links

Every single problem you can find with some female character I can find with a male character. Are some of them flat? Sure. Are some of them too good or too evil to be realistic? Sure. Since when was total realism a requirement. You're on a Naruto forum. You know how unrealistic these characters are? But I still think they're good characters.
No matter their six pack or cup size.

Your first para makes little sense, so I am dropping it. I never claimed male characters do not fall into the spectrum. You are more than welcome to point that out. As for male characters, then VGs are generally poorly written with very few gems far and in-between when story driven games are concerned. But, female characters do seem to be on the short end of the stick more often than not, whether it's presentation or story telling. If you cannot see that, then it's your problem.

What the heck are you even talking about in the last para here?

Why is this a problem? If you're looking for totally realistic characters you should go live life. Games have exaggerated elements, unrealistic elements. Sometimes they have absurd elements.
Moments of catharsis... is that what you are looking for when you play Pac-Man? The collective works of Tolstoj hidden somewhere?

Does Pacman fall into the domain of story heavy games? My arguments on writing are only for those games where story is the main selling point. Pacman is a platformer. A light-hearted one. It's like bringing Mario on the table whilst discussing symbolism in Silent Hill franchise. At least read carefully, for the love of god!

Games also serve very different functions than books. You wouldn't find characters like Pacman and Mario in novels, as the latter's main element is story-telling, the former's is gameplay.

Sure it is. That's exactly what opens the window into the well-written domain. I like character X. I believe character X is a good character. You think I'm wrong? Why? Because you don't like character X?
Vanilla versus chocolate. It's not a competition. It's not a debate. It's just stupid.

No, it really doesn't. You can believe it if you want to. Many people can like Fifty Shades of Grey. That doesn't make it good literature. Many people can like Eminem. That doesn't make him Beethoven. Liking and literary merits do not coincide. They never have and never will. Which is why - despite being a hardcore gamer myself through the course of fifteen years - I have never taken gamers and anime lovers seriously on this front. Because they have little to no idea about good story-telling.

Again, you're looking too deeply into video games. Some games may seek to include deep elements in their games. I have been very touched by video games.
Others don't. Sometimes that's not the point. Good games don't stem from good characters. Counter Strike is a good game.

Master Chief of Halo says maybe two sentences every game. I still think he's an incredible character. Cortana only makes him better. Cardinal sins? Don't make me laugh.

Gameplay is one element, story telling is another. You won't find me criticising Street Fighter for its story. Or Gran Turismo for not having one at all. There are some games where story is the selling point. There are others where it isn't. You won't find genres like platformers, simulation, TPS, FPS etc in novels. Even the thought is borderline stupid. You seem to be trapped in a bog where you cannot even tell apart the notion that gameplay heavy games exist, from story driven games. Games can always get away with the former, as gameplay plays an important part even where the latter doesn't exist.

Which would be your opinion. Am I supposed to take this seriously? Master Chief is a tough guy trope and that's it. He works well for his own domain. Halo is a gameplay heavy franchise. Story was never its selling point. So, yeah, please don't make me laugh that I don't agree with this absurd opinion. Your lack of knowledge on this front isn't my headache. No offense.

So women being 'damsels in distress' are a problem, but women who overcompensate and become 'masculine' are also a problem. What isn't? Tough-girl syndrome plagues the media? They can't be tough, they can't be soft. Seems like it's rough to be a woman in video games if they have to live up to your standards.
How about you describe someone that lives up to these demands?

You've given me yet another list of 'problems' you have with these characters. You've yet to answer my first question: what's your take on a solution?

Which are extremes, and that makes it a problem. There are countless shades between black and white. You seem like one of those typical gamers; full of hot air that games came under fire and have little to defend them with. Anita always draws such a rowdy crowd, so I am not surprised. Your points on breasts, breasts and more breasts are quite crass and highlight this problem even more. It really doesn't change the fact that women in VGs are objectified to disturbing degrees.

No, I really haven't, as highlighting the problems and accepting them are the first two steps towards change. Having more women in the industry would automatically bring diversity and create opposition for one-sided views. That alone is a major solution to most issues.

 

[Ash Ketchup]

So I already was a feminist activist.
I'm little too lazy to detail it, because i would write a giant text.

What I can say is: I think that the feminist movement is very important. This is changing, but we live in a very macho world.

Anyway, I left the militancy because women rather than fight for equality, ended up spreading a culture of hatred. Some fought against the "beauty dictatorship," for example, but slaughtered every woman who dressed well and not behaved like a beggar. I already stopped being taken seriously by some crazy and butthurt woman, because I I took care of my appearance, wore makeup and and dress well lol

Another thing that annoyed me were the spoiled girls who entered the movement because the boyfriend had left them. They participated in protests to show breasts, and make it a whole. I think the body nudity a beautiful thing, and all women (and men) should feel good about their own beauty. but in that case, they even end up objectifying themselves, and doing the same they criticizing others

.I think the women's movement has a lot of "schizophrenia", and women who see men or even other women as enemies. I also think that many discussions were taken to superficiality. And spoiled girls who want to be loved by men take the spotlight, but I think there's much more serious matters to discuss.

And yes, I consider myself a feminist, but I think it has a lot of stupid feminist, I will not deny it lol . And I hate when those people become the symbol of the group. There are serious women who are feminist, but they are not in the middle of fuss, they are fighting for more serious things. Such as women who are abused at home, wage differences, social pressure and behavior that some women are imposed ... and so on.

 

[Yubel]

Hey man. Racists are unequivocally bad. Terrorists are unequivocally bad. Feminists are not unequivocally bad. Therein lies the difference between the former two and the latter, and why your analogy is terrible. Have a nice life.

They are, they're just hiding and trying to look good but even fail at that, thanks same to you.

i read it and pointed out the part which was BS :lol
Making a horrendous statement by comparing anyone who wants equal rights to racists and terrorists[dosen't make sense whatsoever] may sounds cool to you not to me or any sane person

Equal rights is what they tell you, all they want is just power.

 

[BLAZE]

Equal rights is what they tell you, all they want is just power.

That genralisation :lol

Next somebody will say all Muslims are Terrorist and all whites are racists and u will agree with them smh even if you r one

 

[Uzumaki Macho]

Yep, pretty much.

So anyone who believes in equality for both sexes is bad?

 

[Avani]

They are, they're just hiding and trying to look good but even fail at that, thanks same to you.

Equal rights is what they tell you, all they want is just power.

And they shouldn't have a share in power along with other sections of societies that happen to be male because?

 

[Yubel]

And they shouldn't have a share in power along with other sections of societies that happen to be male because?

That's not what you're aiming for, all you do is come up with bs statistics like pay gap myth, storm into a male rights activists conference, act like crazy harpies and continually support laws that makes life harder for men and normal sane women.

 

[BLAZE]

That's not what you're aiming for, all you do is come up with bs statistics like pay gap myth, storm into a male rights activists conference, act like crazy harpies and continually support laws that makes life harder for men and normal sane women.

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again you are confusing Femnazi for feminist :lol

 

[Yubel]

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again you are confusing Femnazi for feminist :lol

A feminazi is a feminist, you're all the same anyway, stop damage controlling.