Does the theme of forgiveness in Naruto go too far?

[Tennis Robot]

My point is that it's matter of perception (much like the folks reading this manga) and empathy is based on perception. Not everyone will have the same perception. The villains do what they do because they perceive it to be the right action to take. Assuming that others will share your same perception is an error. So your suggestion that having more empathy is the answer vs. punishment doesn't make sense. But, if I have a list of rules that the vast majority agrees to, that says if you do X we will perform Y to you, I really don't have to worry about those differences of perception.

Oh ok I understand now. It's difficult to explain. If people were able to understand one another, they would learn to coexist peacefully. If a murderer were to understand their victim's purpose in life, I believe that they would be unable to kill that person. In this scenario, rules would be unnecessary. Sorry I'm inarticulate. And I know what you're going to say now. I'm thinking about it...

Forgiveness and praise are two entirely different fcking subjects. Seems like people are still avoiding this.

Also, it was Naruto and Kakashi that decided to save Obito. Not everyone cares about him, so if every single dead person were to revive right now and look Obito directly into the eye, how many would actually forgive him? Of course Naruto would become selfish and make people forgive him.

Sakura thanked Obito for rescuing Naruto and saving him. She even said that all the things that he did are looked past because he saved Naruto, and that's all that matters. She was even hesitant at trusting him at first. She never once praised or acknowledged him.

Obito saved Naruto and Sasuke, but that doesn't give them any reason to start praising them all because of a title. You are being completely selfish and looking past everyone else to notice your own greediness of acknowledging someone all because he wanted to become Hokage.

Obito saved Sasuke plenty of times and you don't see him reding his cocktails. At least Sasuke had enough sense to look at the enemy that is trying to take over the world instead of crying like a little uncontrollable child.

Why do you have a problem with the way Naruto perceives Obito? Is it more selfish to take offense to someone's actions and hate them than it is to make light of their actions and understand them? Naruto has very good reasons to praise Obito. For one, they had nearly identical outlooks on life, which makes Naruto able to identify with Obito. And Obito was able to overcome his doubts and revert to his former self. That is admirable to me.

 

[Anorien16]

After thinking on this for a bit and reading a thread talking about the contrast in morals on another forum,I decided to make this thread to discuss if Naruto's theme of forgiveness and redemption gets applied too much.

Some characters in the series are guilty of various crimes ranging from kidnapping,terrorism,mass murder etc;.Certain ones were forgiven for their acts but is there a limit to how much you can forgive someone?

For example the friends and families of the people Obito and Madara had killed would certainly have wanted them to brought to justice.

But lately Kishi seems to be sending the message that if you do one act of good will compared to the dozens of crimes you committed, then you're absolved of all responsibility and can go to the afterlife with a clean slate.

Obito is a perfect example of why I believe the theme of forgiveness has been used way too much.He has attacked Konoha,caused the death of the main character's parents,made several character's lives miserable,and caused a world war that claimed the lives of thousands.

Yet because he was used despite knowing full well what he was doing Obito was forgiven.All those things he did?Like it never happened,and to top it off Naruto praised him as the greatest and ultimately he got everything he wanted in death.

Those people who died because of Obito apparently don't matter because he's forgiven now.

Orochimaru is yet another example of what would happen if the theme of forgiveness takes it's course.He caused the deaths of the Fourth Kazekage and Third Hokage,experimented on countless people and attacked Konoha.

Would any sane person forgive Orochimaru despite knowing the things he's done?

Madara looks like he's gonna be redeemed for everything in the future,this is despite him being behind everything Obito did.

Unlike the latter who was manipulated into thinking his actions were for peace Madara had everything laid out from the beginning.But once again it seems like just because BZ betrayed him Kishi is trying to set Madara up for yet another redemption story.


I could go on with other characters and their actions that caused untold death and pain but I made my point.Does the theme of forgiveness get applied too much?Is there a limit to how much a character can be redeemed?

Do note that all the people who were 'forgiven' actually all died correcting their mistakes and only after which they were fully forgiven (Naruto said he wont forgive Nagato but will not take his vengeance, Naruto asked a living Obito to come back and face consequences of his crimes etc) .... So you idea of theme of forgiveness is highly inaccurate. Kishi knows that its not healthy to keep active grudges against dead people.

 

[Darkakatsuki]

The funny thing about this?? God is actually incapable of forgiving, that's why he had to send his only son to die for everyone's sins--that's why there;s a heaven and there's a hell (in terms of the Christian belief, at least)

See the faultiness with such logic?

You're an idiot! God sacrificed his only son as proof of his commitment to human beings. It's the same with Madara and Hashirama. Madara said that Hashirama should kill his brother or himself to show him his commitment to peace between Uchiha and Senju. Heaven and Hell doesn't mean what you said either. God gives you many chances to be redeemed. We commit sins against him everyday but he set out certain guidelines to do in order to earn his forgiveness. No matter what you did in the past, if you follow those guidelines (ask for forgiveness, pray, and try to be good, emphasis on the word 'try') then he forgives you despite everything. If you don't even try it means you don't even want forgiveness, then you go to hell. Obito tried to do the right thing in the end, that is why Naruto forgave him. Although as far as I'm concerned there is no right or wrong thing in the Narutoverse, everyone is a trained killer and everyone is proud of it (proud of being a shinobi), to speak of forgiveness is just plain hypocritical for someone who gets paid to kill people.

 

[startup97]

Narujesus can forgive all!

 

[Gyakusetsu]

And I know what you're going to say now. I'm thinking about it...

Tacos for lunch? My god, you are empathic. _@:

 

[MinaButt]

It went to far when it came to Obito. Naruto and Obito went from enemies to best friends in a few chapters.

 

[Darkakatsuki]

Forgiveness is a noble concept but one that should be applied with reason.And no I don't believe in holding grudges,I believe in accountability and justice.If someone kills a person then they should be punished.

The problem you have now is that the person delivering the punishment is also a killer (shinobi are paid for killing, they are assasins who kill for money). So what right does a killer have to punish another killer? Or even to say they can't forgive em?

 

[Tennis Robot]

It went to far when it came to Obito. Naruto and Obito went from enemies to best friends in a few chapters.

Why is that not a good thing? Do you not want to live in a peaceful world?

 

[Shadow Phantasm]

Do note that all the people who were 'forgiven' actually all died correcting their mistakes and only after which they were fully forgiven (Naruto said he wont forgive Nagato but will not take his vengeance, Naruto asked a living Obito to come back and face consequences of his crimes etc) .... So you idea of theme of forgiveness is highly inaccurate. Kishi knows that its not healthy to keep active grudges against dead people.

Them being dead is irrelevant,the point behind the thread is to ask if the theme of forgiveness is used too much and too often.I even used Orochimaru and Madara who are still alive(Madara's body is being used by Kaguya at the moment) to suggest if they should should be considered forgiven.

 

[Shadow Phantasm]

Why is that not a good thing? Do you not want to live in a peaceful world?

It's too jarring,Obito and Naruto were sworn enemies a few hours ago in manga time and now they're allies.Sorry but if someone tried to kill me and my friends just hours ago there's no way in hell I'll let it go that quickly.

 

[Shadow Phantasm]

The problem you have now is that the person delivering the punishment is also a killer (shinobi are paid for killing, they are assasins who kill for money). So what right does a killer have to punish another killer? Or even to say they can't forgive em?

What kind of question is that?Police kill people too but that does'nt mean they don't have a right to arrest someone and bring them to justice for doing the same thing.

 

[Tennis Robot]

It's too jarring,Obito and Naruto were sworn enemies a few hours ago in manga time and now they're allies.Sorry but if someone tried to kill me and my friends just hours ago there's no way in hell I'll let it go that quickly.

You would rather kill them than learn about them and make peace?

 

[MinaButt]

Why is that not a good thing? Do you not want to live in a peaceful world?

It just came off as being so unrealistic....

 

[Tennis Robot]

It just came off as being so unrealistic....

Oh ok. I can understand that.

 

[Shadow Phantasm]

You would rather kill them than learn about them and make peace?

I would'nt kill them but I sure as hell would'nt act like they're my buddy either.Naruto came across like he got hit with amnesia when he cried over Obito who tried to kill him and everyone he cared about hours ago.It's unrealistic.

 

[Darkakatsuki]

It's not necessarily the theme of the manga that goes too far. It's mainly just Naruto's idiotic mindset that goes too far. Not everyone will forgive their enemy that caused them pain their whole life. Even calling them "awesome" and praising them while at the same time overriding all the actions done before makes you look completely stupid and senseless.

Kakashi forgiving Obito is understandable. They were teammates, but Obito never killed Kakashi's parents.

Sasuke forgiving Itachi is understandable. There was only one way out and it was to stop a war from occurring. Itachi was also trying to protect Sasuke. It's not like he was Obito and did it on purpose. Itachi's actions were all for a legitimate reason.

Hinata forgiving Neji is understandable. Neji was lost in the darkness of his clan but now he is trying to help or was trying to help Hinata before he died. Hhe even told Naruto to protect her. Neji also didn't kill her parents or anyone close to her.


Naruto forgiving Nagato was not understandable, but if he didn't forgive him then his village mates would still be dead, but unlikw with Obito he didn't cry over him nor did he praise him after killing and destroying his village.

Naruto forgiving Obito reaches the peek of pure idiocy. Obito's actions and what he has done throughout his life doesn't even come close to any body else in the NV when it comes to Naruto's enemies. Most of the shit that he did was not even needed. He just did it for the fun of it.

I agree with most of what you said except the Nagato part. Naruto had no choice but to forgive Nagato, if he didn't then he would only prove what Nagato preached to be true and it would also serve as justification for what Nagato did. Naruto wanted to kill Nagato for killing his sensei and destroying his home, Nagato destroyed Konoha for killing his parents, using his home nation as a battleground, thus causing pain, death, poverty, and suffering for many of his kinsman. If Naruto felt that he was justified to get revenge, then he would be indirectly, or perhaps even directly acknowledging that Nagato was also justified in his actions.

 

[Dannie]

Why do you have a problem with the way Naruto perceives Obito?

Stop ignoring my words and pay attention.
Naruto is selfish and only cares about the Hokage title. That's the only reason why he praised him.
Besides the Hokage title, Naruto doesn't understand shit about Obito.
If Naruto was to perceive and understand someone then it would be Gaara, which he does.

Is it more selfish to take offense to someone's actions and hate them than it is to make light of their actions and understand them?

It's more selfish to forget everyone that has been affected by a common enemy and choose to praise him regardless of what he did.
I wonder if those 50000+ Shinobi that were killed has anything to say about this. Of course not, because they are dead.

Naruto has very good reasons to praise Obito.

lol..
Obito could rape Kushina and kill Sakra and Naruto would still have a good reason to praise him, amirite? Lol

For one, they had nearly identical outlooks on life, which makes Naruto able to identify with Obito.

lmao..
I could be identical to a serial killer that nuked a church. Does that mean I have to praise him or that it is normal to praise him?
Dude stop.

And Obito was able to overcome his doubts and revert to his former self. That is admirable to me.

What's admirable to you is completely nonsensical.

 

[Darkakatsuki]

What kind of question is that?Police kill people too but that does'nt mean they don't have a right to arrest someone and bring them to justice for doing the same thing.

Police kill in self-defense or to protect someone, they don't get paid to assaninate targets.

 

[Shadow Phantasm]

Police kill in self-defense or to protect someone, they don't get paid to assaninate targets.

And shinobi only kill to protect their village or in times of war.You're using a false equivalency to suggest that what ninja do to protect their village or in war time is the same as world class criminals.

The only times shinobi get told to assassinate someone is when that person is a rogue ninja or if them being alive will result in turmoil.

 

[-Spoiler-]

It just came off as being so unrealistic....

Lol right that's the unrealistic thing about the manga.