Does the theme of forgiveness in Naruto go too far?

[Shadow Phantasm]

How is Obito being in the afterlife evidence that he's been forgiven? Rin not hating him doesn't mean that she forgave him. In fact she wasn't even involved with all this stuff personally as she wasn't alive to witness it, she was just Obito's trigger. How would she know of what he's done from the afterlife anyway?

What implies that Obito has been forgiven? Naruto and Kakashi wanting Obito to pay the price for his crimes is clear cut evidence that he wasn't forgiven.

Usually when people go to the afterlife it means the sins they committed in life were absolved.It's why Zabuza was afraid of not being able to go to where Haku is back in Part 1.

The fact that Obito did way worse than Zabuza and still was able to meet Rin in the afterlife meant he was forgiven.Also Rin knew what Obito was doing considering she was watching him all this time.You'd think she would show disapproval of the things Obito did.

 

[Raijingan]

I agree that the cycle of hatred isn't itself a main theme. Forgiveness and redemption are. Doesn't the story begin with Naruto as an outcast who really just wants to redeem himself in the eyes of the village? Doesn't Sasuke and his pursuit of vengeance also parallel the theme of forgiveness (or rather run in opposition to it?) by demonstrating that it consumes the avenger with hatred and perpetuates conflict?

For me Naruto has always been about:


- Finding a purpose in life
- Loneliness and sadness, what it can do to you and how to conquer it
- Persevering and working hard to reach your goal


These are themes that everyone can relate to. Forgiveness and redemption aren't as interesting imo

Spoiler

[video=youtube;wEWF2xh5E8s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEWF2xh5E8s[/video]

 

[KidGamer65]

Usually when people go to the afterlife it means the sins they committed in life were absolved.It's why Zabuza was afraid of not being able to go to where Haku is back in Part 1.

That's Heaven, and that's religion. Who knows if Kishi is operating like that? You certainly don't. People both good and bad were revived with Edo Tensei, yet none of them remember any sort of after life. Obito is the first case.

The fact that Obito did way worse than Zabuza and still was able to meet Rin in the afterlife meant he was forgiven.Also Rin knew what Obito was doing considering she was watching him all this time. You'd think she would show disapproval of the things Obito did.

And once again, that goes into everything I previously stated.

Rin not hating him doesn't mean that she forgave him. In fact she wasn't even involved with all this stuff personally as she wasn't alive to witness it, she was just Obito's trigger

Obito was never forgiven. Ever.

 

[Tennis Robot]

For me Naruto has always been about:


- Finding a purpose in life
- Loneliness and sadness, what it can do to you and how to conquer it
- Persevering and working hard to reach your goal


These are themes that everyone can relate to. Forgiveness and redemption aren't as interesting imo

Spoiler

[video=youtube;wEWF2xh5E8s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEWF2xh5E8s[/video]

Forgiveness is the way to achieve the second one.

 

[Raijingan]

Forgiveness is the way to achieve the second one.

Don't know how forgiving anyone would help you if you are alone and depressed

 

[Tennis Robot]

Don't know how forgiving anyone would help you if you are alone and depressed

Forgiving yourself. Depression is a bout against self-hatred.

 

[Shadow Phantasm]

That's Heaven, and that's religion. Who knows if Kishi is operating like that? You certainly don't. People both good and bad were revived with Edo Tensei, yet none of them remember any sort of after life. Obito is the first case.


And once again, that goes into everything I previously stated.



Obito was never forgiven. Ever.

There was hints of being a heaven and hell equivalent in Naruto way back in Part 1 during Zabuza's speech to Gato before killing him.Things like the impure world where most of the souls used in Edo Tensei dwell and there being a limbo as shown when Kakashi died implies that there's both a afterlife and underworld in Naruto.

Not to mention Kishi has imcorporated many religous themes into the story like Buddhism and reincarnation.

@Bold,Kishi says otherwise,there's no point in denying it now.

 

[KidGamer65]

There was hints of being a heaven and hell equivalent in Naruto way back in Part 1 during Zabuza's speech to Gato before killing him.Things like the impure world where most of the souls used in Edo Tensei dwell and there being a limbo as shown when Kakashi died implies that there's both a afterlife and underworld in Naruto.

Zabuza's beliefs don't equate to the truth. So no, nothing was hinted at all.

Sure, things like the pure world, and Limbo and the afterlife might exist, but is that proof that you need to be forgiven of all your past crimes to reach them.

Not to mention Kishi has imcorporated many religous themes into the story like Buddhism and reincarnation.

Doesn't mean he follows them all to the letter. Buddhism's heaven is Nirvana, and Kishi obviously didn't copy that otherwise no one in this series would reach it as they wouldn't meet the requirements, so that shoots down your religion theory.

@Bold,Kishi says otherwise,there's no point in denying it now.

Except Kishi never said anything of the sort, its just you twisting what was shown in the manga to fit your argument. When you can get me a scan of anyone forgiving Obito, we can talk. Until then, you are wrong as no character ever forgave Obito. Naruto and Kakashi openly wanted him to pay for his crimes. How in the world is that forgiveness?

 

[-Spoiler-]

Except Kishi never said anything of the sort, its just you twisting what was shown in the manga to fit your argument. When you can get me a scan of anyone forgiving Obito, we can talk. Until then, you are wrong as no character ever forgave Obito. Naruto and Kakashi openly wanted him to pay for his crimes. How in the world is that forgiveness?

Exactly Obito was never forgiven.

 

[KilluaZoldyck]

I would say the whole Obito thing really crossed the line for me.

The problem isn't forgiveness. Forgiveness is definitely a key element to the Naruto manga and its theme, so it's not unusual. It's how Kishimoto executes this that's the problem. Praising him or calling him "awesome" or whatever was unnecessary and went too far. I feel one should try to forgive but never forget the transgressions that were done to oneself.

I don't find the remedy to be the death penalty/capital punishment like some have alluded to in this thread. Paraphrasing what another person said before, the death of the criminal would not erase the pain and suffering they have caused and is not equivalent to the death/suffering your loved one went through. It's counterproductive to punish the act of murder by killing. It seems to be like that society is indirectly condoning killing as a form of justice.

People are not born evil or good. The social environment you grew up attributes to the future actions you take and that should be taken in account when looking into the reason why a criminal would do what he/she did. There should be some sort of rehabilitation to treat these people instead of choosing the easier alternative (i.e. death). Should this mean you should sympathize with them? Heck no! And this definitely does not mean you should extol their actions.

I mean, Sasuke would be a great example of this. He has crimes he's guilty of and we the reader know he has a horrible past that was a big factor in affecting the actions he took. Should he be praised? No. Should he be forgiven? Eventually. If going with the mentality some people are going by here, they would demand a death sentence. That's perpetuating the cycle of hatred. There are other ways to atone for one's crimes and this is the path Kishi wants to take. The hope that there is redemption. Again, goes back to forgiving but never forgetting.

The problem I mentioned before about the execution is Naruto. Though I support forgiveness, there's nothing wrong in a person refusing to forgive...for the time being. It's human nature to feel slighted when something unjust has been done to you. Time heals all wounds, you know? Yet, I feel Naruto was too quick in this whole Obito thing. And calling him awesome? WTF. Just because they share a similar dream and he was talking about the "young Obito?" Just because someone's redeem themselves for a short period of time does not wash out all the bad they have done. Just because you were once good does not mean I would like that part of you, because it's similar to me. Forgiveness, alright. Calling them cool? Weird.

I think Kishi should have taken notes from Rurouni Kenshin. I think this anime did a much better job on the whole redemption and forgiveness thing. The main character does the whole talking thing Naruto does. However, it's moderated down to where it's not overwhelming and his kindness is realistic. Naruto just doesn't convince me whatsoever.

 

[Lightbringer]

Zabuza's beliefs don't equate to the truth. So no, nothing was hinted at all.

Sure, things like the pure world, and Limbo and the afterlife might exist, but is that proof that you need to be forgiven of all your past crimes to reach them.


Doesn't mean he follows them all to the letter. Buddhism's heaven is Nirvana, and Kishi obviously didn't copy that otherwise no one in this series would reach it as they wouldn't meet the requirements, so that shoots down your religion theory.



Except Kishi never said anything of the sort, its just you twisting what was shown in the manga to fit your argument. When you can get me a scan of anyone forgiving Obito, we can talk. Until then, you are wrong as no character ever forgave Obito. Naruto and Kakashi openly wanted him to pay for his crimes. How in the world is that forgiveness?

What about the Six Paths? There is a Naraka Path that holds the King of Hell. Naraka in Buddhism and Hinduism is the hell-realm. Surely this must be an indication of some sort of infernal dimension.

 

[KidGamer65]

What about the Six Paths? There is a Naraka Path that holds the King of Hell. Naraka in Buddhism and Hinduism is the hell-realm. Surely this must be an indication of some sort of infernal dimension.

Kishimoto may have based the Rinnegan's jutsu off of Buddhism's six realms, but I don't think he used the realms for NV's concept of the afterlife, since the afterlife we've seen for Kakashi and Obito was nothing like it would be if he followed the six realms.

 

[Shadow Phantasm]

I would say the whole Obito thing really crossed the line for me.

The problem isn't forgiveness. Forgiveness is definitely a key element to the Naruto manga and its theme, so it's not unusual. It's how Kishimoto executes this that's the problem. Praising him or calling him "awesome" or whatever was unnecessary and went too far. I feel one should try to forgive but never forget the transgressions that were done to oneself.

I don't find the remedy to be the death penalty/capital punishment like some have alluded to in this thread. Paraphrasing what another person said before, the death of the criminal would not erase the pain and suffering they have caused and is not equivalent to the death/suffering your loved one went through. It's counterproductive to punish the act of murder by killing. It seems to be like that society is indirectly condoning killing as a form of justice.

People are not born evil or good. The social environment you grew up attributes to the future actions you take and that should be taken in account when looking into the reason why a criminal would do what he/she did. There should be some sort of rehabilitation to treat these people instead of choosing the easier alternative (i.e. death). Should this mean you should sympathize with them? Heck no! And this definitely does not mean you should extol their actions.

I mean, Sasuke would be a great example of this. He has crimes he's guilty of and we the reader know he has a horrible past that was a big factor in affecting the actions he took. Should he be praised? No. Should he be forgiven? Eventually. If going with the mentality some people are going by here, they would demand a death sentence. That's perpetuating the cycle of hatred. There are other ways to atone for one's crimes and this is the path Kishi wants to take. The hope that there is redemption. Again, goes back to forgiving but never forgetting.

The problem I mentioned before about the execution is Naruto. Though I support forgiveness, there's nothing wrong in a person refusing to forgive...for the time being. It's human nature to feel slighted when something unjust has been done to you. Time heals all wounds, you know? Yet, I feel Naruto was too quick in this whole Obito thing. And calling him awesome? WTF. Just because they share a similar dream and he was talking about the "young Obito?" Just because someone's redeem themselves for a short period of time does not wash out all the bad they have done. Just because you were once good does not mean I would like that part of you, because it's similar to me. Forgiveness, alright. Calling them cool? Weird.

I think Kishi should have taken notes from Rurouni Kenshin. I think this anime did a much better job on the whole redemption and forgiveness thing. The main character does the whole talking thing Naruto does. However, it's moderated down to where it's not overwhelming and his kindness is realistic. Naruto just doesn't convince me whatsoever.

I like this post.

 

[Shadow Phantasm]

Zabuza's beliefs don't equate to the truth. So no, nothing was hinted at all.

Sure, things like the pure world, and Limbo and the afterlife might exist, but is that proof that you need to be forgiven of all your past crimes to reach them.


Doesn't mean he follows them all to the letter. Buddhism's heaven is Nirvana, and Kishi obviously didn't copy that otherwise no one in this series would reach it as they wouldn't meet the requirements, so that shoots down your religion theory.



Except Kishi never said anything of the sort, its just you twisting what was shown in the manga to fit your argument. When you can get me a scan of anyone forgiving Obito, we can talk. Until then, you are wrong as no character ever forgave Obito. Naruto and Kakashi openly wanted him to pay for his crimes. How in the world is that forgiveness?

Exactly Obito was never forgiven.

Let's agree to disagree then,it's obvious we all have different perspectives on the Obito afterlife scene.

 

[Lightbringer]

Kishimoto may have based the Rinnegan's jutsu off of Buddhism's six realms, but I don't think he used the realms for NV's concept of the afterlife, since the afterlife we've seen for Kakashi and Obito was nothing like it would be if he followed the six realms.

I personally don't think that was the "true" afterlife, but more of a purgatory before their entrance to the land of the dead, which could also explain why both were able to head back to the mortal realm.

Nagato said that he could only bring back those who've died recently. Maybe it's because those souls were still in purgatory and not completely gone to the other side?

The rinnegan holds the power of life and death, so it must mean that the six paths are connected to the afterlife somehow.

Just food for thought.

 

[Tennis Robot]

I would say the whole Obito thing really crossed the line for me.

The problem isn't forgiveness. Forgiveness is definitely a key element to the Naruto manga and its theme, so it's not unusual. It's how Kishimoto executes this that's the problem. Praising him or calling him "awesome" or whatever was unnecessary and went too far. I feel one should try to forgive but never forget the transgressions that were done to oneself.

I don't find the remedy to be the death penalty/capital punishment like some have alluded to in this thread. Paraphrasing what another person said before, the death of the criminal would not erase the pain and suffering they have caused and is not equivalent to the death/suffering your loved one went through. It's counterproductive to punish the act of murder by killing. It seems to be like that society is indirectly condoning killing as a form of justice.

People are not born evil or good. The social environment you grew up attributes to the future actions you take and that should be taken in account when looking into the reason why a criminal would do what he/she did. There should be some sort of rehabilitation to treat these people instead of choosing the easier alternative (i.e. death). Should this mean you should sympathize with them? Heck no! And this definitely does not mean you should extol their actions.

I mean, Sasuke would be a great example of this. He has crimes he's guilty of and we the reader know he has a horrible past that was a big factor in affecting the actions he took. Should he be praised? No. Should he be forgiven? Eventually. If going with the mentality some people are going by here, they would demand a death sentence. That's perpetuating the cycle of hatred. There are other ways to atone for one's crimes and this is the path Kishi wants to take. The hope that there is redemption. Again, goes back to forgiving but never forgetting.

The problem I mentioned before about the execution is Naruto. Though I support forgiveness, there's nothing wrong in a person refusing to forgive...for the time being. It's human nature to feel slighted when something unjust has been done to you. Time heals all wounds, you know? Yet, I feel Naruto was too quick in this whole Obito thing. And calling him awesome? WTF. Just because they share a similar dream and he was talking about the "young Obito?" Just because someone's redeem themselves for a short period of time does not wash out all the bad they have done. Just because you were once good does not mean I would like that part of you, because it's similar to me. Forgiveness, alright. Calling them cool? Weird.

I think Kishi should have taken notes from Rurouni Kenshin. I think this anime did a much better job on the whole redemption and forgiveness thing. The main character does the whole talking thing Naruto does. However, it's moderated down to where it's not overwhelming and his kindness is realistic. Naruto just doesn't convince me whatsoever.

Why is the praise such a big issue? What reason does Naruto have to dwell on the past, to hold Obito's actions against him when Obito clearly overcame his hatred?

It's sort of his thing. Naruto sees the good in people, and he clearly saw something special in Obito.

 

[KidGamer65]

I personally don't think that was the "true" afterlife, but more of a purgatory before their entrance to the land of the dead, which could also explain why both were able to head back to the mortal realm.

Nagato said that he could only bring back those who've died recently. Maybe it's because those souls were still in purgatory and not completely gone to the other side?

The rinnegan holds the power of life and death, so it must mean that the six paths are connected to the afterlife somehow.

Just food for thought.

That actually makes sense. Never really thought about it this way. However, that should have been a hellish dimension if the manga's afterlife stuff was related or the same as the realms in Buddhist beliefs. Naraka is also called hell, or purgatory.

Though I dunno about the underlined. I don't see how they have to be connected, especially since none of the actual six paths themselves have a relation to life and death, its just the Outer Path.

 

[KilluaZoldyck]

Why is the praise such a big issue? What reason does Naruto have to dwell on the past, to hold Obito's actions against him when Obito clearly overcame his hatred?

It's sort of his thing. Naruto sees the good in people, and he clearly saw something special in Obito.

At least for me, the whole time frame was too short. Didn't like it at all.

Not dwelling in the past does not mean you should ignore it. You learn from your previous mistakes, no? The past is a guide we use to make a better future. Praising someone who did your loved one wrong is disrespecting the pain and suffering his/her victims went through. It was for such a dumb reason too. And then he started tearing up....

 

[Tennis Robot]

At least for me, the whole time frame was too short. Didn't like it at all.

Not dwelling in the past does not mean you should ignore it. You learn from your previous mistakes, no? The past is a guide we use to make a better future. Praising someone who did your loved one wrong is disrespecting the pain and suffering his/her victims went through. It was for such a dumb reason too. And then he started tearing up....

That's understandable. Obviously just completely abandoning the past isn't good. However, I believe that seeing someone genuinely try to change themselves, to repent for their sins, is praiseworthy. Especially when you consider just how deep Obito was in his depression/hatred (over half his life).

 

[KilluaZoldyck]

That's understandable. Obviously just completely abandoning the past isn't good. However, I believe that seeing someone genuinely try to change themselves, to repent for their sins, is praiseworthy. Especially when you consider just how deep Obito was in his depression/hatred (over half his life).

Yes, I see what you mean. It is praiseworthy in a way. Yet for me how and why Naruto praised him as well as how quickly he did it after finding out about him was not human for me. Maybe I'm asking too much from a kiddie manga, but I always admire a piece of work that aims for a realistic reflection of human nature even if its theme is idealistic.