~So let me try to understand this character Naruto Uzumaki~

[Remion18]

Its an anime so we can't relate it to real life.

 

[JustSomeDerp]

Its an anime so we can't relate it to real life.

can we all agree naruto outshines jesus in the forgiveness department?

 

[Remion18]

can we all agree naruto outshines jesus in the forgiveness department?

The world may never know.

 

[Lord Orochimaru]

If Naruto does not forgive Obito then how will he break the chain of Hatred.

Thread soloed.

 

[Remion18]

If Naruto does not forgive Obito then how will he break the chain of Hatred.

Thread soloed.

The chain of Hatred is still around.

 

[GhostProject]

Naruto is practical until it comes down to making a decision involving sacrifice. It's not a bad thing necessarily, and his reaction is probably what I would've done given the situation :|

He also judges someone at their best, not when he sees them at their worst. Quick to forgive as well. All 'weaknesses' to some extent, but very strong traits which is why people like him.

I stand by his actions and judgement of Obito =D

 

[mojocashis]

hmmmm u dont understand wat u know abt naruto

 

[xXRolex]

wow this thread is huge

 

[Hyuga Prodigy]

Can't you see that it's just your own moral subjective feelings of 'what is good enough to be forgiven' that you are all basing this on? Who's to say that what Nagato did was 'good enough to warrant his forgiveness'? If Naruto killed a person, but saved a thousand people, does that mean Naruto should be forgiven? If so, by who's authority? It's all just subjective. You're just arbitrarily weighing the crimes obito did by your own gut feelings. So if just because Naruto doesn't have the same 'gut feeling' as you do when he decides to forgive someone doesn't somehow make what he's doing wrong. It's the same thing with when you say 'what is reasonable to forgive'. What is that even based on? Is it based on what most people would believe is forgivable? Why should the majority's gut feeling be the standard for what is right or wrong? By that logic, the Civil rights movement should have never happened, and the majority suppressing the minority should be celebrated. By that logic, if the majority of people liked naruto as a character, then you are wrong for disliking naruto as a character.


Next, Naruto has every right to forgive Obito on a personal level. I have no idea where you people got the idea that Naruto choosing to forgive Obito is suppose to mean that EVERYONE has forgiven Obito. Naruto can decide who he wants to forgive. How has Naruto excused Obito from the past he's lived? ARe you arguing that had Obito survived the war, Naruto would have made it mandatory that Obito be completely free of punishment? If not, then Naruto either doesn't have the authority to aleviate Obito from punishment or still believes that Obito should be punished. Naruto simply admiring who Obito is doesn't in anyway mean that Naruto believes Obito should get out of jail free or shouldn't have to pay for what he did in the past.

Why in the world does Naruto choosing to admire the Obito who was willing to die for the entire shinobi alliance and paid ultimate price for naruto = he doesn't have any respect for himself or his friends? You're literally just asserting this without providing any reasons to believe such is true. And then you've just devolved into the thing that I literally stated and proved is false: that Naruto admires obito just because Obito wanted to be hokage.

You're literally just ignoring what i've typed about how Naruto admires the Obito who died for him, and not the Obito who decided to start this war, asserting your own subjective moral taste as the moral standard for what is right and wrong, and asserting things without providing any reasoning for them.

Why don't you think anyone can relate to Naruto? How long have you lived on earth? Have you seen the best the human race has to offer? have you walked in similar shoes to naruto?

We're looking at the story perspective that will determine the quality of story, and it has to be as much realistic to the real world and as much logical standpoint as much as possible and how we view this is irrational. Yes this is subjective matter, but this is almost non-logical . THE PSYCHOLOGY OF THE PEOPLE IN NARUTO IS OUT OF SYNC WITH THEIR ACTIONS . PEOPLES ACTIONS ARE OVERBLOWN AND DON'T FIT THE CIRCUMSTANCES THAT INITIATED THEM .

Naruto was grateful to a MURDERER who abused a child that was similar to Naruto for protecting them in the end. To your eyes It would make sense for Naruto to be grateful for a person who effects his life PERSONALLY unlike any other villain! If Osama bin laden give an african child a cookie will he be justified? No as a most common sense, but there will always be people trying to justify someone no matter how much people you killed in the past and you personally find this logical to your point of view which shouldn't make any sense.

I'm arguing that Naruto admired Obito achievements and Naruto feels nothing wrong with Obito, just because he find Obito some redeeming quality that share this same ideology just to make himself satisfied doesn't mean he should be forgiven easily when he is the sole reason why 95% of the things that happened, happened in the first place which goes to show the disgrace to someone who died for you but I don't understand how can you relate to that. [/QUOTE]

So waht if the K11 and every shinobi doesn't forgive Sasuke and Obito? So what if his comrades get mad at him for forgiving Obito? There are tons of times when people get pissed when others make the tough, but right decision. Other than that the bolded has been answered over and over: the Obito naruto thinks is cool is not the same one who did all that stuff. Naruto never said or implied that the acts Obito did in the past have been negated, if you got that from naruto simply thinking the current Obito is cool, that's your problem.

I don't understand where you get the idea that Naruto has forgotten about his fallen comrades. The very fact that Naruto has gone out of his way to save Sakura, Kakashi and Obito despite Sasuke always edging him on to just forget about them completely thrashes your argument about Naruto forgetting his comrades because he got more power.

Why does Naruto have to defeat his enemies without showing any sign of pity? No one insulted Nagato right after Nagato used rinne tensei to revive the entire village, and the naruto back then was the one who had just learned the concept of forgiving the enemy for the sake of ending the cycle of hatred.

My point is that if all these shinobi can't forgive Sasuke or Obito, then they will look down Naruto as a hypocritical and they will be mad. Yes theres no such thing as right or wrong. It's all in People's views and opinions depending their instinct. Like I said, how most people view this is totally unforgivable and that is reasonable. I've often seen Anime in past that when a hero are willing to forgive a criminal, the people who were friended with will treated you as a betrayal, no one find this logical only stupid people will forgive the main person made tough "right" decision regarding to the criminal according to your definition.


Naruto admired Obito, he is able to brush away their previous actions and accept them as companions, without even a second thought. This implies his disrespect to his dead friends and his comrades who had forgotten in the past who risked their life for Naruto when it was meant to stop for Obito. Yes Naruto learned the concept of forgiving the enemy for the sake of ending the cycle of hatred but to idealize and show your compassion being over Sentimental to the enemy for such an short amount of time who caused you pain for the majority of the time was sickening. It just shows how selfish and inconsistent this young man is.

Naruto has to defeat Obito if he's not willing to change, he shouldn't try hard to change his guilt, it looks beyond stupid and beyond ridiculous to do the impossible ``Tnj``. No such criminal had this kind of change of heart. Naruto shouldn't give pity to Obito when he doesn't know èverything about him, this shows his arrogant atleast show respect like Nagato.

What in the world? Of course Naruto's going to be the child of prophecy since he's the main character of the manga. That's like saying Naruto did everything because he's the main character of this manga and kishi gave him the ability to do them, you're just stating it has nothing to do with an in-universe argument. Neji asserted that you can't change destiny, Naruto is absolutely not the symbol of hardwork, he's he symbol of fighting for your comrades. Neji vs Lee was genius vs hardwork. And unless you believe that Naruto could have just sat on his butt or committed suicide in chapter 1 and would have still fulfilled the CoP, neji's statement is easily falsified.

Of course Naruto shouldn`t be Child of Prophecy. He`s the symbol of Hardwork by overcoming destiny which already proven when he fought Neji about making your own destiny and not letting yourself be controlled by fate, this is why Naruto shouldn`t be Prophesied because Naruto turned out himself automatically “destined for greatness” and this contradicts his main theme.

So what if they aren't the same entity? You asserted that Naruto didn't work or train for his powers, Naruto did have to work for BM and KCM, being from a different entity means nothing. Who said that Naruto didn't have help with him gaining those modes? That's obviously part of Naruto's theme: not doing everything on your own. And if you want to nitpick, everyone had help with getting to where they are, so I don't see why any of that stuff has anything to do with Naruto not working hard to achieve his new powerups.

So if anyone has Jiinchiruke power, like Rock Lee, are you willing to consider their power?? They are different entity any bijuu can hop on to any user to become jiinchiruke, thus it's not their "Bijuu Power" If Naruto never had a kyuubi, he would master his own "ninja technique" that we're all dying for but since he's using Kyuubi mode, then he's nothing special on his own. This was proven Yamato statement. As I previously stated before, that when Naruto had all these help to master the kyuubi, he got it easy and had all the advantage to control KCM and BM, this automatically made his destined for greatness and this does effect his hardworking theme if you compare to someone like Killer bee, he was able to work his ass off and able to control all 8 tails.

 

[Made in Heaven]

Kishimoto should never have attempted to intertwine these pseudo-philosophical themes into the manga, since he clearly sucks at expressing such themes... NARUTO would have been better off being left off as a light hearted, comedic, action oriented manga with romance here and there..... a lot like how Bleach is and a lot like how Part 1 NARUTO was

 

[Gokuy]

naruto is getting fodder every week -___-

 

[Lana Del Taka]

Kishimoto should never have attempted to intertwine these pseudo-philosophical themes into the manga, since he clearly sucks at expressing such themes... NARUTO would have been better off being left off as a light hearted, comedic, action oriented manga with romance here and there..... a lot like how Bleach is and a lot like how Part 1 NARUTO was

Yup, i agree.

 

[Dark Magician]

Wow 35 pages, nice.

 

[Made in Heaven]

naruto is getting fodder every week -___-

That doesn't even make any sense

 

[Gokuy]

God I cant even believe there is going to be a part 3 , considering what naruto is now.......

I just hope its a rumour

 

[Hiraishin Stage 3]

Re: Naruto (Character) Hate is Justified

Spoiler

most of these points are based on the misinterpretation of the manga.

For example, "10 minutes of good made up for a lifetime of bad". No where was this stated or implied. None of obito's 'feats of good' are being used to counterbalance his 'feats of evil', the reason NAruto shows Obito respect is for the person he has become after being TnJ by Naruto. And that person is one who would willingly do all those feats of good we saw in the last 10 minutes or so. So Naruto is absolutely not saying that what Obito did made up for all the bad, he just respects the person that Obito died as and can appreciate his change from the one who did do all those evil things and tried to initiate infinite tsukuyomi. So unless you can't see that the Obito who died is a different person than the one who did all those killings, it shouldn't be difficult to see how naruto can have respect for the current Obito.

Second, Naruto forgiving Obito doesn't mean he disrespects Neji. If you read the manga, you'd know that this whole idea of holding on to hatred just results in an endless cycle of hatred which screws over everyone including the people neji cares about. Naruto obviously cares a lot about Neji which is why he was hit so hard that he almost turned to the dark side when Neji died. Neji died for Naruto and the shinobi alliance, holding a grudge against Obito won't do anything to bring neji back, it will only get in the way of their victory, and if they lose here, neji's death would be for nothing. So rather than indulge himself in petty revenge that will render naruto a hypocrite and just another avatar for the cycle of hatred to flourish, naruto is not going to hold onto useless feelings like that.

Third, Naruto is a very realistic character. A realistic character isn't a character who merely is like you or me, or a person who exists in reality a realistic character is one who would act this way had he actually gone through the things he's gone through and holds the same ideals as he does in the manga. Normal people haven't been brought up in an environment where they were completely alone and hated throughout their childhood, nor do they have it as their lifelong goal to stop the cycle of hatred and find true peace without eliminating the value of humanity in the process. However, if a human in reality did go through something like what naruto did and possessed the same goals as him, then I find it very likely that they would be quick to forgive and treat another with respect, especially when they saw what led that person to fall into darkness.

Then there's stuff like the Child of Prophecy thing having nothing to do with falsifying themes of part 1 since Neji's theme was not about defying 'destiny' it was one's ability to change their own destiny if they wanted to. Naruto doesn't have any reason to change his destiny as his destiny is the savior of the world, so those two themes don't conflict. Hard work = strength wasn't really a theme in the manga, it was always fighting for someone else or 'protecting others' that was the the theme and motivation for working hard.

The other stuff like Naruto's powers being easily obtained, or him being a puppet aren't true either. Powers such as bijuu mode and Kyuubi chakra mode did require work on Naruto's part, it's just not the normal training that people go through in order to gain powers. In order for Naruto to gain KCM, he had to eliminate all the trace amounts of hatred he had for the people who've wronged him in the past. As we've seen from the OP's comments about Naruto's morality, doing something like that can be extremely difficult to do, or even impossible for some. Same thing with using bijuu mode, Naruto had to befriend Kurama, which could only happen by Kurama witnessing Naruto's high ideals. Hagoromo's powerup might be the closest thing to a freebie, however Naruto could still only use it after convincing the other 8 bijuu to help him and after giving Hagoromo and acceptable answer.

The rest of the stuff is pretty much just personal taste.

Spoiler

Can't you see that it's just your own moral subjective feelings of 'what is good enough to be forgiven' that you are all basing this on? Who's to say that what Nagato did was 'good enough to warrant his forgiveness'? If Naruto killed a person, but saved a thousand people, does that mean Naruto should be forgiven? If so, by who's authority? It's all just subjective. You're just arbitrarily weighing the crimes obito did by your own gut feelings. So if just because Naruto doesn't have the same 'gut feeling' as you do when he decides to forgive someone doesn't somehow make what he's doing wrong. It's the same thing with when you say 'what is reasonable to forgive'. What is that even based on? Is it based on what most people would believe is forgivable? Why should the majority's gut feeling be the standard for what is right or wrong? By that logic, the Civil rights movement should have never happened, and the majority suppressing the minority should be celebrated. By that logic, if the majority of people liked naruto as a character, then you are wrong for disliking naruto as a character.

Next, Naruto has every right to forgive Obito on a personal level. I have no idea where you people got the idea that Naruto choosing to forgive Obito is suppose to mean that EVERYONE has forgiven Obito. Naruto can decide who he wants to forgive. How has Naruto excused Obito from the past he's lived? ARe you arguing that had Obito survived the war, Naruto would have made it mandatory that Obito be completely free of punishment? If not, then Naruto either doesn't have the authority to aleviate Obito from punishment or still believes that Obito should be punished. Naruto simply admiring who Obito is doesn't in anyway mean that Naruto believes Obito should get out of jail free or shouldn't have to pay for what he did in the past.

Why in the world does Naruto choosing to admire the Obito who was willing to die for the entire shinobi alliance and paid ultimate price for naruto = he doesn't have any respect for himself or his friends? You're literally just asserting this without providing any reasons to believe such is true. And then you've just devolved into the thing that I literally stated and proved is false: that Naruto admires obito just because Obito wanted to be hokage.

You're literally just ignoring what i've typed about how Naruto admires the Obito who died for him, and not the Obito who decided to start this war, asserting your own subjective moral taste as the moral standard for what is right and wrong, and asserting things without providing any reasoning for them.


So waht if the K11 and every shinobi doesn't forgive Sasuke and Obito? So what if his comrades get mad at him for forgiving Obito? There are tons of times when people get pissed when others make the tough, but right decision. Other than that the bolded has been answered over and over: the Obito naruto thinks is cool is not the same one who did all that stuff. Naruto never said or implied that the acts Obito did in the past have been negated, if you got that from naruto simply thinking the current Obito is cool, that's your problem.

I don't understand where you get the idea that Naruto has forgotten about his fallen comrades. The very fact that Naruto has gone out of his way to save Sakura, Kakashi and Obito despite Sasuke always edging him on to just forget about them completely thrashes your argument about Naruto forgetting his comrades because he got more power.

Why does Naruto have to defeat his enemies without showing any sign of pity? No one insulted Nagato right after Nagato used rinne tensei to revive the entire village, and the naruto back then was the one who had just learned the concept of forgiving the enemy for the sake of ending the cycle of hatred.


Why don't you think anyone can relate to Naruto? How long have you lived on earth? Have you seen the best the human race has to offer? have you walked in similar shoes to naruto?


What in the world? Of course Naruto's going to be the child of prophecy since he's the main character of the manga. That's like saying Naruto did everything because he's the main character of this manga and kishi gave him the ability to do them, you're just stating it has nothing to do with an in-universe argument. Neji asserted that you can't change destiny, Naruto is absolutely not the symbol of hardwork, he's he symbol of fighting for your comrades. Neji vs Lee was genius vs hardwork. And unless you believe that Naruto could have just sat on his butt or committed suicide in chapter 1 and would have still fulfilled the CoP, neji's statement is easily falsified.


So what if they aren't the same entity? You asserted that Naruto didn't work or train for his powers, Naruto did have to work for BM and KCM, being from a different entity means nothing. Who said that Naruto didn't have help with him gaining those modes? That's obviously part of Naruto's theme: not doing everything on your own. And if you want to nitpick, everyone had help with getting to where they are, so I don't see why any of that stuff has anything to do with Naruto not working hard to achieve his new powerups.

so you are literally saying and believe that people don't change, and you believe that had you transported the conscious of the Obito that died for Naruto 2 days into the past, that Obito would do the exact same thing he'd have done back then: start the war, kill all these shinobi etc?

If there was ever a 'fatality' moment on here, this was it

 

[Gokuy]

That doesn't even make any sense

........okay then?

 

[so12p]

Hate and revenge are the characteristics of one of the side characters - suckske uchichi. The protagonist of the story has comprise above such selfish pursuits.

 

[lanakui8]

We're looking at the story perspective that will determine the quality of story, and it has to be as much realistic to the real world and as much logical standpoint as much as possible and how we view this is irrational. Yes this is subjective matter, but this is almost non-logical . THE PSYCHOLOGY OF THE PEOPLE IN NARUTO IS OUT OF SYNC WITH THEIR ACTIONS . PEOPLES ACTIONS ARE OVERBLOWN AND DON'T FIT THE CIRCUMSTANCES THAT INITIATED THEM .

So when you state the bolded, you're asserting that someone from the real world would not have done what naruto did if they didn't live the same life Naruto had and didn't hold the same beliefs/goals that naruto does. Well what do you base that assertion on?

Naruto was grateful to a MURDERER who abused a child that was similar to Naruto for protecting them in the end. To your eyes It would make sense for Naruto to be grateful for a person who effects his life PERSONALLY unlike any other villain! If Osama bin laden give an african child a cookie will he be justified? No as a most common sense, but there will always be people trying to justify someone no matter how much people you killed in the past and you personally find this logical to your point of view which shouldn't make any sense.

You've literally just ignored my argument for the second time. I repeat and hopefully for the last time that NO ONE IS SAYING WHAT OBITO DID MADE UP FOR HIS CRIMES. What Obito did simply shows that he is a different person than the one who did all those crimes and therefore naruto can appreciate the person he has become. So stop ignoring what I typed.

I'm arguing that Naruto admired Obito achievements and Naruto feels nothing wrong with Obito, just because he find Obito some redeeming quality that share this same ideology just to make himself satisfied doesn't mean he should be forgiven easily when he is the sole reason why 95% of the things that happened, happened in the first place which goes to show the disgrace to someone who died for you but I don't understand how can you relate to that.

For the millionth time, NARUTO ADMIRE THE OBITO WHO DID THAT, he's not guilty of morally weighing obito's sins to his goods and saying "good balance out sins so I like obito". Nope, NAruto is absolutely not doing this just to make himself satisfied, if naruto was after self satisfaction he would seek revenge against Obito or continue to harbor a grudge against obito like what you believe a normal person would want to do.

My point is that if all these shinobi can't forgive Sasuke or Obito, then they will look down Naruto as a hypocritical and they will be mad. Yes theres no such thing as right or wrong. It's all in People's views and opinions depending their instinct. Like I said, how most people view this is totally unforgivable and that is reasonable. I've often seen Anime in past that when a hero are willing to forgive a criminal, the people who were friended with will treated you as a betrayal, no one find this logical only stupid people will forgive the main person made tough "right" decision regarding to the criminal according to your definition.

Why in the world would they look down on NAruto as being hypocritical? Since when did Naruto say anything that meant Obito shouldn't be forgiven?
If there's no such thing as right or wrong, then what naruto's doing isn't wrong and therefore you have no objective reason to dislike naruto's character for forgiving Obito. In fact you have no objective reason for disliking Osama, Musolini and Hitler if there is no such thing as right or wrong.
IF there is no right or wrong, then what are we even discussing this for? Why does it even matter if Naruto's friends look down on him or what most people believe or if people hate Naruto?

Naruto admired Obito, he is able to brush away their previous actions and accept them as companions, without even a second thought. This implies his disrespect to his dead friends and his comrades who had forgotten in the past who risked their life for Naruto when it was meant to stop for Obito. Yes Naruto learned the concept of forgiving the enemy for the sake of ending the cycle of hatred but to idealize and show your compassion being over Sentimental to the enemy for such an short amount of time who caused you pain for the majority of the time was sickening. It just shows how selfish and inconsistent this young man is.

STop ignoring my arguments over and over again. The Obito naruto admires is not the same person who did those things. IT was never implied that Naruto 'brushed away' obito's previous actions just because he accepts the current Obito as a companion. How in the world does Naruto doing that imply disrespect or imply that Naruto has forgotten about what Obito has done to his friends in the past? The bolded is simply your opinion and a misworded opinion at that as the Obito who risked his life to save naruto obviously wasn't naruto's enemy. THis young man is far more selfless than anyone in this entire manga which is why he doesn't indulge himself in petty hatred and focuses on what actually matters, something that Naruto's other comrades might not be capable of, but in no way shape or form makes them right in doing so.

You seem to believe that in order to love one of your friends, it's necessarily true that you hate the enemies of your friend. Why in the world is that so? If you had two friends who didn't like each other, is it necessary for you to pick one of them and hate the other? Obviously not. If Naruto's relationship with his comrades was rooted in mutual hate for a certain individual then that not only craps all over the theme of ending the cycle of hatred, but it also makes their relationship pretty damn sad and illusory.

Naruto has to defeat Obito if he's not willing to change, he shouldn't try hard to change his guilt, it looks beyond stupid and beyond ridiculous to do the impossible ``Tnj``. No such criminal had this kind of change of heart. Naruto shouldn't give pity to Obito when he doesn't know èverything about him, this shows his arrogant atleast show respect like Nagato.

That's all just a flat out assertion on your part backed with zero arguments or evidence.
1) Why shouldn't Naruto try hard to change Obito?
2) Why is what naruto did impossible?
3) Why would a criminal with Obito's upbringing and goals have a change of heart like Obito did?
4) Why shouldn't naruto give pity to Obito despite not knowing literally everything about him?

Of course Naruto shouldn`t be Child of Prophecy. He`s the symbol of Hardwork by overcoming destiny which already proven when he fought Neji about making your own destiny and not letting yourself be controlled by fate, this is why Naruto shouldn`t be Prophesied because Naruto turned out himself automatically “destined for greatness” and this contradicts his main theme.

Naruto is not the symbol of hardwork, he's the symbol of fighting for comrades. He's not the symbol of overcoming destiny, he's the symbol of being capable of defying destiny if you want to. If Naruto is prophesised to save the world, why the heck would he fight against his destiny? There's no reason, just like there's no reason why neji's whole destiny thing means that EVERYONE should defy their destiny regardless of what their destiny is. And unless you believe that Naruto couldn't simply comitt suicide right now, or he could just sit down and do nothing, then Naruto is obviously not being controlled by fate.

So if anyone has Jiinchiruke power, like Rock Lee, are you willing to consider their power?? They are different entity any bijuu can hop on to any user to become jiinchiruke, thus it's not their "Bijuu Power" If Naruto never had a kyuubi, he would master his own "ninja technique" that we're all dying for but since he's using Kyuubi mode, then he's nothing special on his own. This was proven Yamato statement. As I previously stated before, that when Naruto had all these help to master the kyuubi, he got it easy and had all the advantage to control KCM and BM, this automatically made his destined for greatness and this does effect his hardworking theme if you compare to someone like Killer bee, he was able to work his ass off and able to control all 8 tails.

Yes, if rock lee had jinchuriki power and was able to use it, it's his power. Are you asserting that any person could become the Kyuubi's jinchuriki, and gain the ability to use KCM and BM like Naruto did? The bolded is just an assertion on your part, why does naruto not being as powerful w/o the kyuubi prove anything about Naruto w/ the kyuubi sealed into him being naruto's power or not?
Naruto absolutely did not have it easy with 'all this help' to master the kyuubi, he simply got it 'easier' than he would have had it without that help, and omg having help in no way shape or form means he is destined for greatness. So what if Killer bee had less help than Naruto in controlling the hachibi? For the millionth time Naruto's theme isn't hardwork, it's fighting for others.

 

[Made in Heaven]

Posting this here,just in case the other thread gets deleted

How chapter 687 should have went down

Spoiler

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