Something I don't get about this logic

Status
Not open for further replies.

Sefirosu Masamune

Jōnin Strategist 🧠
Veteran
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Messages
2,372
Reaction score
335
Like I said, when did I say summoning isn't a S/T technique?
This is why I can't be bothered for these sites anymore.
If they say all summoning is S/T, does that mean all S/T techniques are summoning? NO.
Is FTG a S/T technique? Yes. Is it a summoning? No. Not that hard to understand seriously. Just because they teleported her, doesn't mean they summoned her...

Ok So summoning uses TELEPORTATION. FTG uses TELEPORTATION. your saying because they are different jutsu and use different methods then its nots the same, but how can that be when the results are the same? the only difference is one uses hand seals+Blood and the other uses Fuinjutsu. Same thing just different methods, your just nit picking dude
 

iSpeak

Anbu Operative 🎭
Veteran
Joined
Oct 31, 2011
Messages
3,503
Reaction score
164
Ok So summoning uses TELEPORTATION. FTG uses TELEPORTATION. your saying because they are different jutsu and use different methods then its nots the same, but how can that be when the results are the same? the only difference is one uses hand seals+Blood and the other uses Fuinjutsu. Same thing just different methods, your just nit picking dude

Like I said before, summoning brings something to you. FTG teleports you somewhere else. The three body guards teleported themselves and Mei to somewhere else, that isn't summoning.

Definition of summon:
sum·mon (smn)
tr.v. sum·moned, sum·mon·ing, sum·mons
1. To call together; convene.
2. To request to appear; send for. See Synonyms at call.
3. Law To order to appear in court by the issuance of a summons.
4. To order to take a specified action; bid: summon the captain to surrender.
5. To call forth; evoke
 

KingHashirama

Legendary Shinobi 🐸
Supreme
Joined
Jun 30, 2012
Messages
27,280
Reaction score
1,690
Like I said before, summoning brings something to you. FTG teleports you somewhere else. The three body guards teleported themselves and Mei to somewhere else, that isn't summoning.

Definition of summon:
sum·mon (smn)
tr.v. sum·moned, sum·mon·ing, sum·mons
1. To call together; convene.
2. To request to appear; send for. See Synonyms at call.
3. Law To order to appear in court by the issuance of a summons.
4. To order to take a specified action; bid: summon the captain to surrender.
5. To call forth; evoke

none of those definition is about teleportation which is the "Summoning jutsu".. hence why using the dictionary here doesn't help bro.
 

Renpatsu Dei

Leaf Village Regular 🍃
Regular
Joined
Apr 13, 2013
Messages
560
Reaction score
72
Edo tensei is a jutsu, part of a shinobi's arsenal, a whole clan is not
 

Momo86

Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2012
Messages
330
Reaction score
40
You seem to miss a core point. One thing is when something is a weapon at your arsenal, one other thing is that something is an external factor that does help you in one war or another, but it's not within your entire control.

IN the Narutoverse, several shinobi use the body, or body-parts, or genes, of another shinobi as weapon. As long as they can do it, yes, it is "their" power. Having a living weapon that is FORCED to do your bidding no matter what they think, is blatantly different from having an ally.

Sasori uses the Third Kazekage, Kakuzu uses hearts from other shinobis, Pain uses summons and corpses that move like if they were part of him, Danzo uses organs and genes stolen from the Uchiha and the Senju. Are those "their" powers? Of course they are.

Is this different from Madara controlling the Nine-Tails, or Obito controlling the jinchurikis, like if they were their own limbs, parts of themselves? Of course it's not. Sure, both Obito and Madara can be separated from these human weapons, and therefore lose that power. But this doesn't mean that they aren't theirs as long as they possess and control it, just like any other weapon.

Edo Tensei is a different subject. Edo Tensei clearly doesn't grant you full control of every person you summon. It has been demonstrated several times already that highly powerful/strong willed shinobi can break free of it like Hanzo, Sasori, Itachi, Madara, Hashirama, Tobirama all did. Indeed this is why Kabuto left some of the reanimated shinobi free of moving, like he did with Deidara, Ginkaku, Kinkaku and some others.

Edo Tensei doesn't necessarily give you access to the full abilities of the reanimated one... see when Kabuto decides to un-seal Deidara, because he "doesn't quite get his art" = he wouldn't know how to fight with Deidara's style even if he had Deidara under his full control.

On the other hand, if you want "full control" with Edo Tensei, the seal possibly ends up weakening your own reanimated warrior, like when Orochimaru first resurrected Hashirama and Tobirama against Hiruzen Sarutobi.

Obito was the only one who demonstrated a full control of his reanimated shinobis and their abilities, but he was able to do that because he had combined Edo Tensei with sharingan, rinnengan and the Gedo Mazo's ability to control the tailed beasts. And even in that case, the effort to control all six jinchurikis made him lose the ability to use other powerful techniques such as all the Six Paths techniques.

In short...

Generally speaking when someone is entirely in control of another person's body, you should count the powers of the controlled as powers that the controller has access to. In Edo Tensei's case, though, it's not exactly that simple.
 

KingHashirama

Legendary Shinobi 🐸
Supreme
Joined
Jun 30, 2012
Messages
27,280
Reaction score
1,690
You seem to miss a core point. One thing is when something is a weapon at your arsenal, one other thing is that something is an external factor that does help you in one war or another, but it's not within your entire control.

IN the Narutoverse, several shinobi use the body, or body-parts, or genes, of another shinobi as weapon. As long as they can do it, yes, it is "their" power. Having a living weapon that is FORCED to do your bidding no matter what they think, is blatantly different from having an ally.

Sasori uses the Third Kazekage, Kakuzu uses hearts from other shinobis, Pain uses summons and corpses that move like if they were part of him, Danzo uses organs and genes stolen from the Uchiha and the Senju. Are those "their" powers? Of course they are.

Is this different from Madara controlling the Nine-Tails, or Obito controlling the jinchurikis, like if they were their own limbs, parts of themselves? Of course it's not. Sure, both Obito and Madara can be separated from these human weapons, and therefore lose that power. But this doesn't mean that they aren't theirs as long as they possess and control it, just like any other weapon.

Edo Tensei is a different subject. Edo Tensei clearly doesn't grant you full control of every person you summon. It has been demonstrated several times already that highly powerful/strong willed shinobi can break free of it like Hanzo, Sasori, Itachi, Madara, Hashirama, Tobirama all did. Indeed this is why Kabuto left some of the reanimated shinobi free of moving, like he did with Deidara, Ginkaku, Kinkaku and some others.

Edo Tensei doesn't necessarily give you access to the full abilities of the reanimated one... see when Kabuto decides to un-seal Deidara, because he "doesn't quite get his art" = he wouldn't know how to fight with Deidara's style even if he had Deidara under his full control.

On the other hand, if you want "full control" with Edo Tensei, the seal possibly ends up weakening your own reanimated warrior, like when Orochimaru first resurrected Hashirama and Tobirama against Hiruzen Sarutobi.

Obito was the only one who demonstrated a full control of his reanimated shinobis and their abilities, but he was able to do that because he had combined Edo Tensei with sharingan, rinnengan and the Gedo Mazo's ability to control the tailed beasts. And even in that case, the effort to control all six jinchurikis made him lose the ability to use other powerful techniques such as all the Six Paths techniques.

In short...

Generally speaking when someone is entirely in control of another person's body, you should count the powers of the controlled as powers that the controller has access to. In Edo Tensei's case, though, it's not exactly that simple.

Good reply thank you.


I would like to argue your point though. What you can call "your own power" must come from your own body. Edo tensei is a summoning technique , which teleports the dead to the aid of the user, which in fact is a external factor.
 

iSpeak

Anbu Operative 🎭
Veteran
Joined
Oct 31, 2011
Messages
3,503
Reaction score
164
none of those definition is about teleportation which is the "Summoning jutsu".. hence why using the dictionary here doesn't help bro.

These types of statements do not even deserve a reply back.
Are you trying to tell me every S/T jutsu is a summoning? Because if you are, then I might aswell end the conversation here.
 

Sefirosu Masamune

Jōnin Strategist 🧠
Veteran
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Messages
2,372
Reaction score
335
Like I said before, summoning brings something to you. FTG teleports you somewhere else. The three body guards teleported themselves and Mei to somewhere else, that isn't summoning.

Definition of summon:
sum·mon (smn)
tr.v. sum·moned, sum·mon·ing, sum·mons
1. To call together; convene.
2. To request to appear; send for. See Synonyms at call.
3. Law To order to appear in court by the issuance of a summons.
4. To order to take a specified action; bid: summon the captain to surrender.
5. To call forth; evoke

Nothing to do with the manga definition of summoning jutsu. Traveling through space and time is teleportation Summon jutsu in manga=Teleportation

FTG=Teleportation

how is this any different from summoning mei??.

You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images


Because the jutsu are named differently or something??

The OBVIOUSLY teleported because they passed through the barrier undetected..
 
Last edited:

iSpeak

Anbu Operative 🎭
Veteran
Joined
Oct 31, 2011
Messages
3,503
Reaction score
164
Nothing to do with the manga definition of summoning jutsu. Traveling through space and time is teleportation Summon jutsu in manga=Teleportation

FTG=Teleportation

how is this any different from summoning mei??.

You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images


Because the jutsu are named differently or something??

Oh my lord.
Definition of Summoning = to call forth.
Literal translation of Jutsu = technique.
Definition of Summoning Jutsu = A technique to call forth.
FTG doesn't call forth, it teleports you to another location!
Did you people really think every S/T technique is a summoning? You think Kakashi's Kamui is a summoning?
Jesus, what has this base become?
I need to go to sleep now anyway.
 
Last edited:

Sefirosu Masamune

Jōnin Strategist 🧠
Veteran
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Messages
2,372
Reaction score
335
Oh my lord.
Definition of Summoning = to call forth.
Literal translation of Jutsu = technique.
Definition of Summoning Jutsu = A technique to call forth.
FTG doesn't call forth, it teleports you to another location!
Jesus, what has this base become?

dude look up the naruto version of the word not websters. your denying facts here dude.

THEY SUMMONED MEI! they did not use the "summoning jutsu" but they used FTG to "Call her forth"

Summoning jutsu also teleports you to another place. how can you argue this? you cant even use any manga to back your statement up. your just using your opinion+Websters and thats all. your just playing on words to try an prove a point thats not there.

FTG=S/T jutsu
Summoning jutsu=S/T jutsu

Manga FACT

Summoning jutsu can be used to summon or "CALL FORTH PEOPLE", animals and weapons.

FTG can be used by others the "CALL FORTH PEOPLE"

Manga fact.

You only defense is word play about the definition of the word which still favors my argument. Mei was called forth using the FTG jutsu....

Summonings can call forth people animals and items.

FTG can call forth people;Mei, Animals;Kyuubi, and other objects; S/T barrier to TBB.

Please use manga and not websters dictionary...im done....what has NB come to? lol


opinionated non manga based arguments
 
Last edited:

iSpeak

Anbu Operative 🎭
Veteran
Joined
Oct 31, 2011
Messages
3,503
Reaction score
164
dude look up the naruto version of the word not websters. your denying facts here dude.

THEY SUMMONED MEI! they did not use the "summoning jutsu" but they used FTG to "Call her forth"

Summoning jutsu also teleports you to another place. how can you argue this? you cant even use any manga to back your statement up. your just using your opinion+Websters and thats all. your just playing on words to try an prove a point thats not there.

FTG=S/T jutsu
Summoning jutsu=S/T jutsu

Manga FACT

Summoning jutsu can be used to summon or "CALL FORTH PEOPLE", animals and weapons.

FTG can be used by others the "CALL FORTH PEOPLE"

Manga fact.

You only defense is word play about the definition of the word which still favors my argument. Mei was called forth using the FTG jutsu....

Summonings can call forth people animals and items.

FTG can call forth people;Mei, Animals;Kyuubi, and other objects; S/T barrier to TBB.

Please use manga and not websters dictionary...im done....what has NB come to? lol


opinionated non manga based arguments

The three body guards didn't call forth mei, they teleported her to another location.

Teleporting to another location is not summoning.
Somebody teleporting you to their location is summoning.
Summing is to call forth, did the bodyguards call forth Mei?

The definition of summon agrees with me
The fact that FTG isn't listed as a "summoning" in the databook means Kishi agrees with me.
Naruto.Wiki (though I don't like to use the site) agrees with me.
Common sense agrees with me
Just accept it, FTG is not a summoning.
 
Last edited:

Momo86

Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2012
Messages
330
Reaction score
40
Good reply thank you.


I would like to argue your point though. What you can call "your own power" must come from your own body. Edo tensei is a summoning technique , which teleports the dead to the aid of the user, which in fact is a external factor.

Yes, it is an external factor but, as I said earlier, by "external" I mean "not in your control". If you can fully control another body like if it was your limb, or your tool, makes that body's power "yours".

Still... Edo Tensei, as I already said, is a borderline case that doesn't strictly obey to this rule. Because it is already demonstrated that Edo Tensei doesn't grant you "full" access and control to the reanimated ninja's powers. The only one apparent exception to this is Obito but, as I already said, he didn't achieve full control on Six Jincurikis with Edo Tensei alone.

Reanimated shinobi who make abundant use of extraordinary equipements are severely de-powered when resurrected. See Deidara and Sasori, who were one-shot by Sai and Kankuro. NInja who are too powerful have to be bound by Edo Tensei or could break free of it (see Senju brothers) and there are several other problems with this jutsu.

Therefore...

Saying that, for instance, Wood Release isn't truly a power of Neo-Madara is faulty reasoning. A power that you now control fully can be defined as "yours" until you lose it.

On the other hand, counting all the reanimated ninja as "part of Kabuto's power" is also faulty reasoning.
 

Space Cowboy

Jōnin Strategist 🧠
Regular
Joined
Jan 21, 2013
Messages
1,910
Reaction score
257
So your saying you know more about Kabuto , then Kabuto knows about himself...... well done. Your so not a Kabuto fanboy huh.

How is what I'm saying ridiculous. Then let me see him summon the 3rd Raikage back.
This is where you look desperate. You know damn well what would happen if they fought and you werent trying to limit Kabuto's abilities. I am not a fanboy, im using logic. You also know that when taking someone power into account, it is done in the prime of their existence. Come on dude, i know you can do better than that
 

KingHashirama

Legendary Shinobi 🐸
Supreme
Joined
Jun 30, 2012
Messages
27,280
Reaction score
1,690
Yes, it is an external factor but, as I said earlier, by "external" I mean "not in your control". If you can fully control another body like if it was your limb, or your tool, makes that body's power "yours".

Still... Edo Tensei, as I already said, is a borderline case that doesn't strictly obey to this rule. Because it is already demonstrated that Edo Tensei doesn't grant you "full" access and control to the reanimated ninja's powers. The only one apparent exception to this is Obito but, as I already said, he didn't achieve full control on Six Jincurikis with Edo Tensei alone.

Reanimated shinobi who make abundant use of extraordinary equipements are severely de-powered when resurrected. See Deidara and Sasori, who were one-shot by Sai and Kankuro. NInja who are too powerful have to be bound by Edo Tensei or could break free of it (see Senju brothers) and there are several other problems with this jutsu.

Therefore...

Saying that, for instance, Wood Release isn't truly a power of Neo-Madara is faulty reasoning. A power that you now control fully can be defined as "yours" until you lose it.

On the other hand, counting all the reanimated ninja as "part of Kabuto's power" is also faulty reasoning.
Mokuton is inside Madara's own body.

Also, the problem is he forcing to take over someone else's body. He needs to shut off the mind of the body , to control it with his own, that is why its not part of him, unlike Kankuro and Sasori's puppets.

This is where you look desperate. You know damn well what would happen if they fought and you werent trying to limit Kabuto's abilities. I am not a fanboy, im using logic. You also know that when taking someone power into account, it is done in the prime of their existence. Come on dude, i know you can do better than that
How are you using logic by defending a character yet going against what he said....

The reason i brought that up is because i want YOU TO DECIDE whether Kabuto was talking about With edo tensei or Without edo tensei.
 

Space Cowboy

Jōnin Strategist 🧠
Regular
Joined
Jan 21, 2013
Messages
1,910
Reaction score
257
Mokuton is inside Madara's own body.

Also, the problem is he forcing to take over someone else's body. He needs to shut off the mind of the body , to control it with his own, that is why its not part of him, unlike Kankuro and Sasori's puppets.


How are you using logic by defending a character yet going against what he said....

The reason i brought that up is because i want YOU TO DECIDE whether Kabuto was talking about With edo tensei or Without edo tensei.
Pull up the scan where he says that, id like to see what it explicitly says before i go further on that point. Regardless, if youre going to tell me that 30+ edos cant handle Hashirama then i dont know what to so say. And it really doesnt matter which, he has edo tensei. Im just not really seeing your points here. If he can use it, he can use it. Period. That should be the end of that
 

Momo86

Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2012
Messages
330
Reaction score
40
Mokuton is inside Madara's own body.

Also, the problem is he forcing to take over someone else's body. He needs to shut off the mind of the body , to control it with his own, that is why its not part of him, unlike Kankuro and Sasori's puppets.

You're just sticking to words too literally.

I'll be more precise then.

Are the Six Edo Jinchuriki parts of Obito's power? Yes they are, because he is in full control of them now, he can use their peculiar jutsu and their transformations, and seemingly could keep those six under his own control basically forever. Yes, they are not LITERALLY "part of him" but they automatically move at his command and make him see what they see. They are no different from Nagato's Six Paths of Pain, and those were OBVIOUSLY "external" to Nagato's body but he could use those bodies as if they were his own, like Obito can.

In Kabuto's case it is different, he can clearly control the reanimated shinobi to some extent but he couldn't control all 30+ of them perfectly and fully at the same time with perfect precision. Edo Tensei's control is not perfect as I already illustrated in the two previous posts. A battle of, say, Itachi vs "Kabuto with 30 reanimated ninja" could not happen because Kabuto wouldn't be able to fully control and exploit such ninjas. Not counting that, from the looks of it, it is preferrable to stay still while exercising Edo Tensei control.

This was already demonstrated with Hashirama and Tobirama being reanimated by Orochimaru. It was obvious that in the Orochimaru VS Hiruzen fight Orochimaru's "total" power was not equal to [Orochimaru's "base" power + Hashirama full power + Tobirama full power] because if that was the case, Orochimaru could have very well leveld the whole Leaf Village in a blink.

Essentially, the deciding factor is not if the living weapon is inside or outside of your body but if you have full, total control over it.

Obito has full power over Utakata's body until Edo is stopped. Kabuto had not full control over -say- Madara's power in any case. Jiraiya had full control over most summoned frogs in any case.

Which is why Utakata (or Roshi, or Yugito, or whatever) is/was "one of Obito's powers" just like the toad stomach summons is "one of Jiraiya's powers, and on the opposite hand Madara is not "one of Kabuto's powers".
 

KingHashirama

Legendary Shinobi 🐸
Supreme
Joined
Jun 30, 2012
Messages
27,280
Reaction score
1,690
You're just sticking to words too literally.

I'll be more precise then.

Are the Six Edo Jinchuriki parts of Obito's power? Yes they are, because he is in full control of them now, he can use their peculiar jutsu and their transformations, and seemingly could keep those six under his own control basically forever. Yes, they are not LITERALLY "part of him" but they automatically move at his command and make him see what they see. They are no different from Nagato's Six Paths of Pain, and those were OBVIOUSLY "external" to Nagato's body but he could use those bodies as if they were his own, like Obito can.

In Kabuto's case it is different, he can clearly control the reanimated shinobi to some extent but he couldn't control all 30+ of them perfectly and fully at the same time with perfect precision. Edo Tensei's control is not perfect as I already illustrated in the two previous posts. A battle of, say, Itachi vs "Kabuto with 30 reanimated ninja" could not happen because Kabuto wouldn't be able to fully control and exploit such ninjas. Not counting that, from the looks of it, it is preferrable to stay still while exercising Edo Tensei control.

This was already demonstrated with Hashirama and Tobirama being reanimated by Orochimaru. It was obvious that in the Orochimaru VS Hiruzen fight Orochimaru's "total" power was not equal to [Orochimaru's "base" power + Hashirama full power + Tobirama full power] because if that was the case, Orochimaru could have very well leveld the whole Leaf Village in a blink.

Essentially, the deciding factor is not if the living weapon is inside or outside of your body but if you have full, total control over it.

Obito has full power over Utakata's body until Edo is stopped. Kabuto had not full control over -say- Madara's power in any case. Jiraiya had full control over most summoned frogs in any case.

Which is why Utakata (or Roshi, or Yugito, or whatever) is/was "one of Obito's powers" just like the toad stomach summons is "one of Jiraiya's powers, and on the opposite hand Madara is not "one of Kabuto's powers".

No they aren't Obito's own power. They are FORCED to obey. See your confusing them with 6POP who were dead bodies with no mind whatsoever.


When you say use your own power, you think about the person using their own body. Obito's 6 edo jins are not derived by his own chakra.. unlike Nagato's.

Pull up the scan where he says that, id like to see what it explicitly says before i go further on that point. Regardless, if youre going to tell me that 30+ edos cant handle Hashirama then i dont know what to so say. And it really doesnt matter which, he has edo tensei. Im just not really seeing your points here. If he can use it, he can use it. Period. That should be the end of that
Dude your still not getting the point.. we aren't talking about the jutsu, we are talking about the people summoned with the jutsu.
You must be registered for see images
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top