[Discussion] Zabuza vs Itachi - levels, fight, utility etc

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First of all, i haven't even checked to see if i actually said that. That's because this isn't to continue that nasty episode with @Avani. This is just to say that even if Avani wasnt strawmanning me as per habit, its not all that bad.

See, i wouldnt blame most people if they read that post that references Zabuza / Itachi as my opinion and thought less of me. Why? Well, if a kid is raised racist, sent to racist school and groomed into racist society without ever being given the chance to explore and see that all races are people, can you blame them for being racist? Their opinion/views is definitely wrong (and i mean that objectively, we can debate this), but are they themselves guilty or a victim of a bad system?

In the same way, people are somewhat 'raised' to be prejudiced against certain views and statements, such that a mere report of someone holding certain views sets the world against that person. Now such prejudice and persecution is definitely wrong, but the people behind it are not always guilty. This is because guit is about the responsibility one has and one cannot be held accountable for something beyond their reasonable control, such as their upbringing and opportunities to explore. Now if they get and reject said opportunity, then that's on their own heads.

So i figure to figuratuvely give everyone the chance to explore for themselves.

I mean, considering the age we all live in, where famous historical prejudice is so well known and access to information . . . should prejudice really be thing among us?

Especially considering that we who are on this site are likely among the most well informed people on the planet - internet + reading comprehension + intellectual interactive community?

Especially considering the particular topics we discuss here? Im pretty sure anyone who is into our particular interests has enough life experience to know better than ridiculing and shunning 'fringe' opinions. Now when such actually discusses these topics to the extent that we do? Come on. It would be the saddest tragedy if the manga reading community, of all communities, were to exhibit the same stereotyping and prejudice and prosecuting behaviour of normal society!

We owe it to . . . everything, really . . . to be better than that. Nonetheless, i will give leeway for natural prejudices and take the time to delve into one of these topics. But i hope i never have to do such again.

Where to begin? Well, i understand Zabuza to be quite strong, as someone like Kakashi lost to him in a matter of moments despite Kakashi knowing almost everything about Zabuza while Zabuza knew almost nothing about Kakashi. And we know knowledge matters because characters are fundamentally mortal (can be killed with kunai + strategy) and we have many examples featuring Obito, Orochimaru, Kakuzu and more where the character with knowledge jumped many levels to beat someone without knowledge. Zabuza also being pinned as the biggest threat in a group of already kage level threats, paeticularly against a troupe of trained shinobi with - again - nearly full knowledge on him also puts him at a high level.

As for Itachi? Well, his failure to deal with an Obito, despite being an information master himself, who almost everyone he ever fought managed to hurt him is bad for him. And of course, that only matters if 'almost everyone' in question is weaker than Zabuza. Minato scales to the likes of Kakashi whom Zabuza already outclassed. Fu and Torune are implied to not be the strongest ever seeing as how Kakashi himself was a former Anbu and is shown as better than Anbu captain Tenzo. Well, that's shaky, but that Fu and Torune had no knowledge still counts. Konan definitely used very powerful abilities, but the ones she genuinely needed are pretty basic. So if all these guys, lacking knowledge, were able to hurt and even kill Obito, for Itachi to fail to even touch him is poor.

Otherwise, im not really sure what to say because I'm just going off of the impression that Zabuza is somehow supposed to be super weak and Itachi super strong, but its not really my view. So I'll just leave it open here for questions and other points to be raised by everyone else. We'll see then where the discussion takes us

Maybe that's a little . . . little, so let me leave some snippets:
1. These are opinions
They can change. And even the most factual things aren't set in stone. Like, someone could argue that Itachi never used Fire Ball Technique but rather used genjutsu on characters to make them move or hide his real position or whatever. And that's with something pretty solid. So in a story where almost nothing is set in stone, no opinion is automatically bad. Again, i didn't even check the basis of this thread (that i said Zabuza / Itachi in some other thread) but i just wanna deal with this idea of some opinions being ridiculous. I mean, that we have these discussions is proof of that. That the story is really just a bunch of snapshots attempting to cover an entire world with long history . . . and those snapshots are less than the number of seconds one would use in a day to read all of them . . .

2. No opinion is baseless, factually
People are fundamentally logical. They cannot believe something without backup for it. Its literally impossible. So even if someone has a 'wrong' opinion, there can be something correct behind it or about it. All opinions have some value in being heard or evaluated.

Lets get to it, then. Why exactly should Itachi be so much stronger than Zabuza that they cant be compared?
 

Avani

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i think itachi would beat him even without full sharingan powerz..
He will.


Maybe that's a little . . . little, so let me leave some snippets:
1. These are opinions
They can change. And even the most factual things aren't set in stone. Like, someone could argue that Itachi never used Fire Ball Technique but rather used genjutsu on characters to make them move or hide his real position or whatever. And that's with something pretty solid. So in a story where almost nothing is set in stone, no opinion is automatically bad.

Again, i didn't even check the basis of this thread (that i said Zabuza / Itachi in some other thread) but i just wanna deal with this idea of some opinions being ridiculous. I mean, that we have these discussions is proof of that. That the story is really just a bunch of snapshots attempting to cover an entire world with long history . . . and those snapshots are less than the number of seconds one would use in a day to read all of them . . .

2. No opinion is baseless, factually
People are fundamentally logical. They cannot believe something without backup for it. Its literally impossible. So even if someone has a 'wrong' opinion, there can be something correct behind it or about it. All opinions have some value in being heard or evaluated.
Why tag me to such a thread in the first place? I wish people had more sense to know when they need to move on. It's false to say you are looking for a healthier discussion when you start your post by tagging someone you are still mad a and play victim. You were not stawmanned but called out for making bad arguments. I can copy paste if you need to be reminded that badly.


Opinion can be objectively wrong, and are called ridiculous when they are not based on facts but assumptions and whims or absolute contradiction of facts. Let's pick just one random example from your long-winded opinion on opinion being pretty solid -

@ the part in red.:
You must be registered for see images



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How can anyone declare that Itachi never used it and claim it's a pretty solid opinion and insist there cannot be a bad or baseless opinion.... and expect to be taken seriously... when the manga shows opposite fact.


No I do not wish to go another round of arguments.
 

Avani

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And if i didnt tag, Avani would say im talking behind their back.

@Avani
Please stay out of my threads. Don't worry, I'll watch my tags in the future
I wouldn't have noticed.

But you intended to talk about me and yet you told Minamoto you were not targeting anyone.. :rolleyes: Do not go around making claims of "strawman" and maybe I will. If I notice it then I may feel inclined to really copy past and link first thread for people to read my reply or something.
Thank you.
 

P3ĮÑ

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I don't understand how this is a debate

Zabuza will not survive

Nope
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Lets get to it, then. Why exactly should Itachi be so much stronger than Zabuza that they cant be compared?
I mean they can be but physically I really see no competition or a "good' argument in zabu's favor.
 
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Infant

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I don't understand how this is a debate

Zabuza will not survive

Nope
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I mean they can be but physically I really see no competition or a "good' argument in zabu's favor.
There's two topics:
>The first is a proper fight between the two of them
>The second is their general level of ability

I dont really mind either way, but im just looking to say that there is some arguement to be had. That the two characters are not worlds apart from each other.

For the fight, i think the Hidden Mist kills Itachi. Zabuza should have an easier time maintaining the technique than Itachi will have maitaining his eyes. So attrition is always an option for Zabuza.
Besides attrition, the incomplete nature of the chakra armour means that Zabuza can use Water Dragon Technique to attack Itachi directly, either going underground to attack from below or using a clone to flood water into the armour, forcing Itachi to undo it.

In general, i'll wait on you
 

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Zabuza is barely S-Rank and Itachi is above Kage/Sannin level.
Hard disagree on both accounts.

But first, how is Zabuza "barely" S-rank if he troubled an army unit led by Kakashi who himself is S-rank?
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Think about this:
The 5th Hokage, who knew of Uchiha powers, and Jiraiya, who knew of Akatsuki powers, thought that a team of 8 would be enough to both find and kill Itachi faster than Sasuke.

The above can be broken down to say that they expected 3-4 people to take out Itachi as 2 would help find him (fast) and 2 would prevent disturbances. And that's just general schematics. Looking at it closely, Shino, Kiba, Hinata, Naruto and Sakura all specialised in finding targets. That leaves whoever the othger three were to specialise in fighting him (logically, the others may be tired).

Oh, and the above leadership included a Kakashi (iirc) who knew how powerful Itachi could be! So Itachi was made into a 3-4 cell level of fighter.

On the other hand, Zabuza was seen as the main threat to an army unit of tens of shinobi, if not hundreds. Even if you divide up the number of enemies, that still leaves Zabuza with over ten to his name. Taking it further, he was only beaten because of specialists in the group who could hard counter him. Taking out those specialists means an entire army unit would not be able to stop him. And that was a Zabuza who was being manipulated by someone else, someone who could not replicate his intelligence and instincts on the field. And as a reanimation was physically weaker than normal.

So the idea of Zabuza being barely anything is outrageous in my view. And to say that Itachi is somehow levels above him . . . needs backup at least. The people who knew him best in Kakashi, Tsunade and Jiraiya felt otherwise.
 
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Infant

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He lost to like, three Chuunin. And had help from an S Class that would literally die to protect him. And did. And he still lost. Relax.
Naruto beat SPoP as a genin, if you wanna use ranks . . .
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And Konohamaru was also a genin when he beat Hell Path . . .
Choji was a chunin when he pushed back the Heretic Statue . . .
Tenten was a chunin when she beat Kakuzu . . .
Ino and Hinata were chunin when they literally saved the whole united army from a TBB . . .

Look, Naruto isnt totally like One Piece where fights come down purely to what powers you have. Here, characters still start off being normal people who need speed and strength. But when you look at all that happened and the explanations for powers in the story, it is far closer to One Piece than to DragonBall Z.

Rank was broken the day Naruto saved Kakashi from Zabuza himself.
 
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