[Discussion] Zabuza vs Itachi - levels, fight, utility etc

minamoto

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I wouldn't have noticed.

But you intended to talk about me and yet you told Minamoto you were not targeting anyone.. :rolleyes: Do not go around making claims of "strawman" and maybe I will. If I notice it then I may feel inclined to really copy past and link first thread for people to read my reply or something.
Thank you.
no no i think you got it wrong this time...ifnant has teh habit of taging other members who share or even don't share same thoughts as him...it's good way to discuss a manga topic i think ...
 
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P3ĮÑ

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For the fight, i think the Hidden Mist kills Itachi. Zabuza should have an easier time maintaining the technique than Itachi will have maitaining his eyes. So attrition is always an option for Zabuza.
This is pretty arbitrary and based on assumption value. In versus debates we attribute it towards feats, itachi simply outclasses zabuza in every conventional stat.

Abilities tend to be synonymous with the users power. Itachi would probably have no issue "blitzing" zabuza before he really utilize his abilities. Even if we gave zabuza some scenario that benefits him it still would be favoring itachi. Itachi's arsenal is far more versatile than Zabu's.


Besides attrition, the incomplete nature of the chakra armour means that Zabuza can use Water Dragon Technique to attack Itachi directly, either going underground to attack from below or using a clone to flood water into the armour, forcing Itachi to undo it.
None of this works on MS itachi, also this is a very far fetched way of foreseeing a victory, it makes it seem like itachi is some stupid NPC.
 
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minamoto

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This is pretty arbitrary and based on assumption value. In versus debates we attribute it towards feats, itachi simply outclasses zabuza in every conventional stat.

Abilities tend to be synonymous with the users power. Itachi would probably have no issue "blitzing" zabuza before he really utilize his abilities. Even if we gave zabuza some scenario that benefits him it still would be favoring itachi. Itachi's arsenal is far more versatile than Zabu's.




None of this works on MS itachi, also this is a very far fetched way of foreseeing a victory, it makes it seem like itachi is some stupid NPC.
i feel like i kow u befor...
 

Infant

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This is pretty arbitrary and based on assumption value. In versus debates we attribute it towards feats, itachi simply outclasses zabuza in every conventional stat
What do you mean by arbitrary? From my understanding, arbitrary means man-made and unnecessary. Well, the topic we are discussing . . . ? So i dont get the meaning of this point.

Everything is based on assumption, literally everything. So unless you can show that its a weak assumption, particularly weaker than your own side, then youve got no point.

Attribute what towards feats? Again your saying something vague or meaningless. And the idea of using showings only is what is truly arbitrary in this context because there is no fundamental limit to capabilities that says only showings are allowed. Or is there? Can you prove it?

The reason im putting the onus on you here is hecause the idea i gave is already bases on known capabilities, so it is substantial. Therefore it needs something more substantial from your own side to knock it down. That's how exchanges/discussions work. You move on known ground, or the closest thing thereof



Abilities tend to be synonymous with the users power. Itachi would probably have no issue "blitzing" zabuza before he really utilize his abilities. Even if we gave zabuza some scenario that benefits him it still would be favoring itachi. Itachi's arsenal is far more versatile than Zabu's.
Tendency != certainty, im afraid.

Ino and Hinata saving the world already wrecks even that as a tendency.

Nonetheless, you're slightly mistaken. Abilities are the users power. They're not similar or synonymous or whatever, they are the power directly. Simple reason, a character cannot do something that they literally cannot do.

You have to prove that Itachi has the speed. Not just, but fast enough to beat Zabuza in a blitz attempt. Zabuza has your beloved showings of beating Kakashi in clone feints, who himself beat Itachi in clone feints. Zabuza also got his Hidden Mist technique off in time against an entire army unit that includes a Kakashi who can use MS powers and a Nara who uses guided shadows and a Yamanaka who uses mental projections (or whatever you would call it)! That's speed. And that's from a Zabuza who was being manipulated, who even with murderous intent didn't have his intelligence and instincts, nor his experience based reasoning!

Prove it. Like, prove anything youve said thus far. I don't even disagree with some of your claim, but youre taking them too far (like, Itachi can be faster, but to blitz . . . too much!) And you aren't backing them up. You're giving me nothing to work with. Its not an exchange if there's nothing im receiving.




None of this works on MS itachi, also this is a very far fetched way of foreseeing a victory, it makes it seem like itachi is some stupid NPC.
And saying Zabuza just gets blitzed is doing fair justice to him? Watch those double standards

Anyway, why doesn't it work? Prove it. Show Itachi can counter!

Far fetched . . . another subjective and ultimately vague statement that adds nothing. How does it add nothing? Because even if true, it doesn't disqualify the idea. What would disqualify it (not really, in a world where Konohamaru beat Hell Path, Choji beat back Heretical Statue, Sakura punched Kaguya etc etc) is if you showed an idea that is less far fetched (and proved it so). Then we'd have something to work with. Remember, exchange.

And this that i proposed is just one way Zabuza can win.

Anyway, you're not too bad. Your conclusions aren't too bad either, you're just not cementing them. I think there's just too many ideas of conventionality and so on that are putting blinkers on your perspective, limiting what you can see. This certainty of there being nothing else also works to take away your ability to actually cement your points. Like, i had to dosome guessing of where youre getting your conclusions in order to be able to try and reply to them. You yourself only gave statements of your beliefs, not proof of them.

Otherwise, you're not too bad here. If i look at other threads, you're quite good. Just get rid of those close-minded blinkers. For example, even though i had an unhappy exchange with Avani, by being open enough to actually check what he said, i went from thinking Sakura is nowhere near any top five for talent and skill, to now thinking she could be top 3 (roughly). So no matter what else is up, actually partaking in exchanges and listening to what is said is always positive (obviously, you must also have a good sifting standard otherwise rubbish will also walk in to your heardt).
Looking forward to more of this.
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And when i say bring evidence, im not saying to post panels of everything (although that wouls be wonderful). Just tell me where the idea comes from. Like, which arc or chapter or fight. Any reference that i myself can also work with.

Exchanges are supposes to be constructive - we both learn. You cant build without a foundation. You can't build with someone unless you have a common foundation that you both know and can work with.

So give me the foundation of your ideas, and i can at least evaluate that. Otherwise, literally anyone can just come in here and say "Itachi is slower", " Zabuza has lightning style", "i know everything" and so on. But that wouldnt2 give us much, would it?

Its not about saying anyone is lying or stupid, but its a thing that no one is perfect, anyone is capable of mistake or misunderstanding. That's why proof must come to show us why we should change our minds. Especially because no idea is absolutely baseless, new ideas must prove their stronger base. And of course, you do get the trolls and memers, so the standars of proof helps sift out those ideas as well.
 
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P3ĮÑ

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What do you mean by arbitrary? From my understanding, arbitrary means man-made and unnecessary. Well, the topic we are discussing . . . ? So i dont get the meaning of this point.
As an adjective it means on a personal whim, assumption, rather than reason. Which is to say, it's not wrong, but in this instance we can safely say it is.

I don't mean to drag this debate into a Tl;DR over a consensus among the majority that zabuza doesn't win, like he just doesn't it seems redundant on my part to just constantly assert that and me be met with very "muh semantic" games than properly analyzing the why's/how's more practically.

Far fetched . . . another subjective and ultimately vague statement that adds nothing. How does it add nothing? Because even if true, it doesn't disqualify the idea. What would disqualify it (not really, in a world where Konohamaru beat Hell Path, Choji beat back Heretical Statue, Sakura punched Kaguya etc etc) is if you showed an idea that is less far fetched (and proved it so). Then we'd have something to work with. Remember, exchange.
The reason I say it's far fetched is because of fallacious reasonings multiple of them, you may propose idea's in debates, I mean that's how we're able to expand not only as a community but for interesting discussion as well.

The reason, again, I say it's far fetched is because I can make the same "befitting" scenario's for itachi, where itachi claims no one without an MS can beat him (authors words) or that "hurr yataaa brocks aaaalll" these are simply no limit fallacies and use this information to make it seem like he's invincible (even in a particular situation/scenario). Drawing parallels/contrasts to the users ability as "the hidden mist beats itachi" is a same method of thinking. Zabuza again conventionally does not stand anywhere close to itachi where the hidden mist should be an issue for him.

These types of debates are very common, it seems absurd on the surface, but you can legitimately conjure up a defense to whatever you think is a possibility, it does not make it correct.

Otherwise, you're not too bad here. If i look at other threads, you're quite good. Just get rid of those close-minded blinkers. For example, even though i had an unhappy exchange with Avani, by being open enough to actually check what he said, i went from thinking Sakura is nowhere near any top five for talent and skill, to now thinking she could be top 3 (roughly). So no matter what else is up, actually partaking in exchanges and listening to what is said is always positive (obviously, you must also have a good sifting standard otherwise rubbish will also walk in to your heardt).
Looking forward to more of this.
The thing is, you don't know me, correct? This is all very unimportant and it actually reveals more about your character than you'd realize.

I simply pointed out the absurdity of what I found in here "zabuza vs itachi" and I posted. You're extrapolating this into what it isn't and has no relevance to the debate. It's a very weird way if anything to appeal to emotionality.

Regardless if you want to discuss this we can discuss it later or PM me because i'm extremely inactive. I'm open to all forms of vs debates I find them interesting no matter how absurd they are or might seem to the community.
 
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Avani

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no no i think you got it wrong this time...ifnant has teh habit of taging other members who share or even don't share same thoughts as him...it's good way to discuss a manga topic i think ...
Doubt it. That would be true if he only tagged me and had not been complaining over and over.

You have to prove that Itachi has the speed. Not just, but fast enough to beat Zabuza in a blitz attempt. Zabuza has your beloved showings of beating Kakashi in clone feints, who himself beat Itachi in clone feints. Zabuza also got his Hidden Mist technique off in time against an entire army unit that includes a Kakashi who can use MS powers and a Nara who uses guided shadows and a Yamanaka who uses mental projections (or whatever you would call it)! That's speed. And that's from a Zabuza who was being manipulated, who even with murderous intent didn't have his intelligence and instincts, nor his experience based reasoning!
Kakashi was no match to Itachi and ended up in hospital after meeting him. Why would you keep that one eyed borrowed sharingan guy in the same league with Itachi... Kakashi was using almost basic sharingan around the time and had 3 genins and a client to worry about. Besides, second time around Zabuza couldn't use mist effectively against Kakashi either, and Haku died saving him. Itachi can solve problem with low visibility just fine. Anime shows him fighting Kisame, right before going to meet Sasuke. Well, more like sparring rather fighting and Itachi was trying to conserve energy to fight Sasuke. But he did counter Kisame and his mist.

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Can Zabuza get lucky somehow and able to land a decisive blow under some very specific and severe negative conditions? Sure. I have seen people putting conditions like " poisoned blind Itachi with no arms and legs Vs iruka" and declare Iruka can manage to slit his neck under circumstances. But otherwise one on one, Itachi is too much for Zabuza.
 
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Infant

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Where to begin? I wisish fellow once said: "Let's start with the Truth, because it gets you in the end".

So I'm gonna start with the end. Why? Because Truth is not mere fact, but fact with relevance. When you are talking about about whether you like James Bond or not and someone asks you to be truthful, telling them about how the earth is a circle or a triangle does not fulfill their call. So from this we understand that Truth is fact with relevance or within context. Now in my view, my reply to the last part will carry the most relevant information for this discussion, so it is closer to Truth than the other part.

The thing is, you don't know me, correct? This is all very unimportant and it actually reveals more about your character than you'd realize.

I simply pointed out the absurdity of what I found in here "zabuza vs itachi" and I posted. You're extrapolating this into what it isn't and has no relevance to the debate. It's a very weird way if anything to appeal to emotionality.

Regardless if you want to discuss this we can discuss it later or PM me because i'm extremely inactive. I'm open to all forms of vs debates I find them interesting no matter how absurd they are or might seem to the community
FIRST POINT - CONTEXT
In what context do i need to know you? What does it kean to know you, by what metric do you judge this?

We have already had an interaction, during which we reply according to what we think and feel, which themselves arise from the way we evaluate things, which is an impression of our selves. So by some metric, i do know you and you know me. The question is whether we know enough.

Enough of what? In context, enough to be able to offer evaluation of our debating quality or discussion quality about Naruto.

When you have precise context and are dealing with a topic of knowledge, then you can judge a person withi these horizons. You do not need to know the life story of a person when you see them make an objective mistake. And when you are dealing with a practice where you have some experience, you can evaluate their level even after two glances at them.

The fact that i specifically said that in this thread and used evidence fromothger threads, contextual analysis tells that i am referring to your ability in discussion, especially Naruto discussion, not whether you have the personality of Mother Teresa or Adolf Hitler.

That is to say, learn to read context or at least to ask if you do not get something. Especially before replying so aggressively . . .

SECOND POINT - SUBJECTIVITY VS OBJECTIVITY
Absurdity is a subjective standard. Therefore, you don't use it to dismiss or as a foundation for dismissal.

Now in a place where you debate things, you never dismiss on subjective standard because the premise of debate/discussion is difference of views. It is not difference that you must be comfortable with, but simple difference. Kudos for being open to all debate, but that should be the standard for everyone.

Appeal to emotion is used when debating issues that people are emotionally attached to, it seeks to prevent people from considering pure fact.
Now here we are discussing magical ninjas . . .

And who would i even appeal to? You have already expressed disagreement, so it is not like i can make you love me too much to disagree or something like that. When you are discussing something like this, especially one on one, Appeal to Emotion is the weakest fallacy one could ever try (off the top of my head)

On top of that, mine was an evaluation, not some subjective expression of feeling. It was based on the points you made. If a simple evaluation seems like an emotional attack, then we see things very differently.

Well, people being different is what makes them worth having. So let me just clarify that i didn't intend to try to trickyour emotions or somesuch. That was just an evaluation, something to help you develop/grow as a debator and even as a person. For clarity, i would appreciate one in return if you wanted to.

THIRD POINT - FALLACIES
Fallacies are situations of correct logic being used incorrectly.

For example, if i see you wearing a Manchester United shirt, i assume you support them. Why? Because people buy shirts of clubs to express support. Now it is possible you do not even know Manchester United but your girlfriend brought you the shirt because she thinks it is fashionable. So my assumption is logical, but not guaranteed to be true. Therefore, judging by association/appearance is a fallacy.

So think of fallacies like this: logical but not guaranteed.

Now because the fallacy is inherently logical, the onus is on the one who points it out to explain why it doesn't apply in this specific scenario. You don't just scream "fallaceee" and think you have a point. No. You explain why it is a fallacy and then you have a point.

Logic also tells this. I can't reply to you if i dont know what you meant, what reasoning you used.
Additionally, if i used a fallacy, chances are i didn't see it. So you have to point it out and explain why, else i could not see it and the discussion cannot proceed.

SERIOUSLY - RESPECT
Didn't i already cover this?

Discussion requires basic respect between each other. Not to treat me like your parents or president, but as person with their own thinking, feeling and reasons. So if i say things over and over and am having the worst assumed against me, that's clearly disrespect.

You wanna know what that is, imcurrebtly using a keyboard which is auto-incorrecting every second word i type in, i keep havung to take a step back to neatly align every word or else my posting gets all jumbled up. So i cant be half struggling with my keyboard and also having to struggle just to have a decent discussion as well. That doesn't seem fair to me.

My entire previous post covered actually giving me something to reply to. In this i covered how fallacies work and how points are made - with proof! So why am i having to explain things like basic context and deal with accusations so weak i cant believe that you yourself believe them?
First you make claims without backup, but can somehow tell if im making assumptions despite my points all being evidenced.
Then you accuse me of fallacies when you cant back them up with evidence.
Then when you do try to give something objective, its with the weakest possible point you could go on.

Looking at that, it seems like you didnt come here to talk but just to attack. Seriously, an appeal to emotion?

Come on, lets respect each other.


As an adjective it means on a personal whim, assumption, rather than reason. Which is to say, it's not wrong, but in this instance we can safely say it is.

I don't mean to drag this debate into a Tl;DR over a consensus among the majority that zabuza doesn't win, like he just doesn't it seems redundant on my part to just constantly assert that and me be met with very "muh semantic" games than properly analyzing the why's/how's more practically
How can we safely say it is? If im expressing disagrement, doesn't that mean it isnt safe by any metric?

What semantics? Care to at least try to be direct on any point. I legit dont even know what youre referring to

Maybe thats the problem? In a discussion, you dont assert, you prove. You bring evidence that everyone can work with. See how i referred to specific techniques instead of "muh stronger-ism"?

The reason I say it's far fetched is because of fallacious reasonings multiple of them, you may propose idea's in debates, I mean that's how we're able to expand not only as a community but for interesting discussion as well.

The reason, again, I say it's far fetched is because I can make the same "befitting" scenario's for itachi, where itachi claims no one without an MS can beat him (authors words) or that "hurr yataaa brocks aaaalll" these are simply no limit fallacies and use this information to make it seem like he's invincible (even in a particular situation/scenario). Drawing parallels/contrasts to the users ability as "the hidden mist beats itachi" is a same method of thinking. Zabuza again conventionally does not stand anywhere close to itachi where the hidden mist should be an issue for him.

These types of debates are very common, it seems absurd on the surface, but you can legitimately conjure up a defense to whatever you think is a possibility, it does not make it correct
What fallacious reasonings? Prove them to be so!

Then how about making one? How about giving me something to actually reply to instead of neither here nor there vagueness?

NLF is actually such an assertion - that powers work no matter the level difference. Im here debating thay Zabuza is at Itachi level, so i cant possibly be using NLF! Its technically impossible. Additionally, i gave examples of powers working despite level difference, so your point is already bad. Finally, becfore you assert Nlf, prove that it applies in Naruto!
Apealing to conventionality is an actual fallacy, funny enough. In a debate, it always fails because the premise of debate is difference in views.

Simply claiming something is absurd does not make it wrong either. You have to actually address given points. Thats how debate works.

Overall, i think you fell for the buzzword trap. You speak of fallacies, conventionality, NLF and all that but based on how you used them, you genuinely dont have a shred of understanding on them. See, buzzwords are used for the express purpose of building fake commonality (research propaganda) and not actually helping people understand things. So get buzzwords out of your head and actually make sure you know what youre talking about. And if you dont know, then ask.

You're the closest ive gotten to an actual discussion here, lets keep it going, but actually going.
 

Nidaime Suiton

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Zabuza can counter Itachi's katon, but that's all.

Zabuza can't do anything against Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi and even less than Susano.

The only swordman from Kiri who can compete with Itachi, is Kisame, especially against sick Itachi from Shippuden.
 
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Tauren Chieftain

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Remove Susanoo from Itachi and he would need to struggle to defeat Zabuza but overall he is whole tier above him honestly.
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Zabuza can counter Itachi's katon, but that's all.

Zabuza can't do anything against Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi and even less than Susano.

The only swordman from Kiri who can compete with Itachi, is Kisame, especially against sick Itachi from Shippuden.
Well by using Kirigakure no jutsu he could disrupt Itachi field of vision making genjutsu and amaterasu very hard to land.
 
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Infant

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Remove Susanoo from Itachi and he would need to struggle to defeat Zabuza but overall he is whole tier above him honestly.
Give me your reasons and ill give you mine.


Zabuza can counter Itachi's katon, but that's all.

Zabuza can't do anything against Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi and even less than Susano.

The only swordman from Kiri who can compete with Itachi, is Kisame, especially against sick Itachi from Shippuden.
For you:
There is nothing i can do against the the strength and power of a lion . . . that's why i would not challenge a lion in a cage match. Instead, i would get a gun and shoot the lion from a distance.
Question: Does Zabuza have a gun that nullifies the powers of Itachi? Itachi uses visual powers, so does Zabuza have something to block vision? . . .
For everyone: (you don't really need this)
For the sake of many things, let me just point out some problems in the above quoted post
1. "Zabuza can't . . . " - pronouncing an absolute limit
These are difficult on their own, because claims require evidence to support them. So an absolute claim requires irrefutable evidence to directly prove it.

Now when the absolute claim is that of impossibility, that is even more troublesome. The reason is that in order to speak of impossibility, one must know of all possibilities first. That alone is very difficult.

Then (i was told to break up my paragraphs, otherwise this point is part of the above parag) one must show that all possibilities fall within the limit they have claimed. This is also very.

Only then can someone claim impossibility. Well, they can also just show that a contradiction would be created by certain actions. For example, if Zabuza explicitly says that he needs to look at an opponents eyes for a period of time and that he has zero defense against illusions, these two would combine in such a way that Itachi has the opportunity to cast his illusions and Zabuza can't defend against them.
In this case, we already know of a contradiction created by the above claim, even without calling for it to be proved. Zabuza has clone feints and hidden mist which both counter visual illusion casting, as we saw when Kakashi fought Itachi, with Kakashi using both methods to beat illusions despite being weaker at both techniques than Zabuza.
2. Different claims, same principle
Zabuza only being able to deal with fire style and kisame being the only swordman who can beat Itachi are also claims of absolute limits. Any claim must comewith evidence, such claims must come with perfect proofs.

All in all, try to avoid absolute claims. They're a pain to prove but so easy to disprove that you'll cause yourself to lose points unnecessarily.
 
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