Yes, Yet another Hokage Comparison Thread

[Ryuu..]

Should've seen my thread from yesterday on this point U_U

 

[natssuu]

lmao , you're on of them who thinks you need a kkg or tailed beast to be extremely strong?

sasuke and nagato aren't hashirama... you also have NO idea what hiruzen's abilties are... and we know enma diamond staff mode was easily slicing through hashiramas wood.. we know hiruzen was a master of genjutsu and had over 1000 of them, so what? hashirama is immune to genjutsu right? sigh you people

Please give a link where it says that Hiruzen had over 1000 genjutsu techniques. Also Hashirama fought numerous times against Madara, who is easily better in genjutsu than Hiruzen. And yeah, Hiruzen is extremely strong, but weaker than many other shinobis. Also as I said, this is opinion based question, no need to get mad if other people have a different opinion.

 

[Owarij]

if he really knew every jutsu in Konoha I can think of C RAnk or B Rank techs that would have been better than what he used against the Hokages like:
a barrier to defend himself when he was preparing Dead Demon Consuming seal
genjutsu to buy himself time to use the seal
another fuinnjutsu, maybe even the pathetic tag being used in this war,
jeez did it have to be the S-Rank Dead Demon Consuming Seal?
what if Orochimaru used Shadow clones or Hashirama used wood Clones or Tobirama used water clones, he'd seal a clone with the large chakra and S-level tech requires then get killed
BTW he didn't stop the third coffin, it just didn't work, i got a translation of the Japanese

when did i say he stopped the coffin :S


and this is nonsense.. Zabuza says kakashi knows over 1000 jutsu, everyone believes it

when it's stated hiruzen knows more than 2000 jutsu, noone believes it

Spoiler

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Please give a link where it says that Hiruzen had over 1000 genjutsu techniques. Also Hashirama fought numerous times against Madara, who is easily better in genjutsu than Hiruzen. And yeah, Hiruzen is extremely strong, but weaker than many other shinobis. Also as I said, this is opinion based question, no need to get mad if other people have a different opinion.

i just posted the link , sakura saying he has 1000 jutsu just like kakashi, and ebisu

that coupled with his 5 in genjutsu for backup,

And there is OCULAR genjutsu and non ocular genjutsu.. ocular genjutsu are simply dodged by not making eye contact... someone who has fought uchihas so many times would obviously not make eye contact..Oonoki fought madara ONCE and knew/told everyone not to look into his eyes..

handseal genjutsu however are almost undodgeable... how can you escape? even itachi couldn't , the person just casts it on you, then you have to counter

 

[GodaimeRaikage]

Not this again. Tbh the strongest hokage is tsunade. She is the only one alive so stfu

Classic

they wont listen, no matter what
and you're right, Minato didn't reach his prime


there is a scan where jiraya says " The fourth had potential to be top tier, but died young "

if he had a few more years he could have made it as number 1, according to jiraya he had crazyyy potential

but hiruzen prime was TRAINED by tobirama and hashirama and he surpassed them , i don't get why people don't see that

If we take away the hype for Hiruzen and Hashirama and simply look at the power of their jutsus that were displayed, the argument for Hiruzen surpassing Hashirama doesn't hold up.Being trained by both the 1st and 2nd hokages is good, but matching their power and abilities is something differently.We haven't seen any jutsu of Hiruzen that is on the scale of Hashirama's jutsus.

sso if everyone in the ninja world thought of him as the strongest hokage, that includes old people of konoha etc, who've lived to see hashirama/tobirama etc.... and everyone in the world according to kabuto considered him the strongest kage of his time


what do you thin? they were just pulling that out his ass? they called him that for a reason... everyone knows about the great hashirama, who has moukouton, who defeated madara and shared the bijuu, yet they still call hiruzen the strongest hokage . there is obviously something he has that we don't know about or haven't seen ..

I need to find that manga chapter where it stated every shinobi in the world thought of Hiruzen as the strongest kage of his time because it is very hard to believe.Just on a pride aspect, I would think every village would think of their own kage or leader as the strongest.The thought of every shinobi in every hidden village thinking of a shinobi from another village as the strongest is just too absurded to be truth.Some villagers in Konoha might have thought that way, but I doubt there was even a consensus there.

when did i say he stopped the coffin :S


and this is nonsense.. Zabuza says kakashi knows over 1000 jutsu, everyone believes it

when it's stated hiruzen knows more than 2000 jutsu, noone believes it

Spoiler

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Actually, it was stated Hiruzen knew 1000 illusions (genjutsu) and he knew all the jutsus in the Konoha.But you have to take into account that knowing a jutsu, and being able to used a jutsu is two different things.Hiruzen could have known tsukuyomi, but he doesn't have a sharingan and is not an Uchiha so he could never use it in battle.The same can be said for all Kekkei Genkai sand specialty jutsu of specific clans.Furthermore, Kakashi also stated no shinobi in history could used every nature type jutsu.We only saw Hiruzen used Fire and Earth, so if we were to assume the statement of Hiruzen knowing all the jutsu in the village as , Hiruzen could used all the jutsu in the village then either there weren't any water, lightning , or wind types in Konoha, or hiruzen was secretly the only shinobi in history able to used every single nature element without a rinnegan.Also, there can be that many powerful jutsu in the world yet alone one village for Hiruzen to learn, so a large majority of those jutsu would have had to be E-rank, D-Rank, and C-Rank which would be from academy level to chunin.

 

[~Uzumaki~]

a barrier? he needed to touch hold them to end it... a barrier would separate him from them... and reallly ? you do know of plot no jutsu right? i can go on and on about things kakashi could have done but didn't...

use a barrier just until he has finished preparing the damn seal.
kakashi's battles make sense, he hasn't really fought people with techs he can copy and his average elemental techs don't cut it anymore.

 

[Minator93]

sso if everyone in the ninja world thought of him as the strongest hokage, that includes old people of konoha etc, who've lived to see hashirama/tobirama etc.... and everyone in the world according to kabuto considered him the strongest kage of his time


what do you thin? they were just pulling that out his ass? they called him that for a reason... everyone knows about the great hashirama, who has moukouton, who defeated madara and shared the bijuu, yet they still call hiruzen the strongest hokage . there is obviously something he has that we don't know about or haven't seen ..

Maybe, just maybe Hiruzen Solo'd the 1st great ninja war...went bad shit crazy and ended up defeating many jichurikis and Kages after Tobirama died and he became the Hokage...thus earning the title GOD OF ALL SHINOBIS.

I mean that was the beginning of Hiruzen-saga.

And we never know..Kishi is famous for pulling stuff outta his ass. Need some flashbacks though.

 

[Owarij]

Classic



If we take away the hype for Hiruzen and Hashirama and simply look at the power of their jutsus that were displayed, the argument for Hiruzen surpassing Hashirama doesn't hold up.Being trained by both the 1st and 2nd hokages is good, but matching their power and abilities is something differently.We haven't seen any jutsu of Hiruzen that is on the scale of Hashirama's jutsus.



I need to find that manga chapter where it stated every shinobi in the world thought of Hiruzen as the strongest kage of his time because it is very hard to believe.Just on a pride aspect, I would think every village would think of their own kage or leader as the strongest.The thought of every shinobi in every hidden village thinking of a shinobi from another village as the strongest is just too absurded to be truth.Some villagers in Konoha might have thought that way, but I doubt there was even a consensus there.

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there is this , as well as the databook inputs from kishi, saying he was reknown as the strongest hokage,

also kabuto states it was widely said that he was the strongest of the 5 kages

that is no longer the opinion of 1 man in the manga.. that is numerous people, in konoha and out

 

[Owarij]

Classic



If we take away the hype for Hiruzen and Hashirama and simply look at the power of their jutsus that were displayed, the argument for Hiruzen surpassing Hashirama doesn't hold up.Being trained by both the 1st and 2nd hokages is good, but matching their power and abilities is something differently.We haven't seen any jutsu of Hiruzen that is on the scale of Hashirama's jutsus.



I need to find that manga chapter where it stated every shinobi in the world thought of Hiruzen as the strongest kage of his time because it is very hard to believe.Just on a pride aspect, I would think every village would think of their own kage or leader as the strongest.The thought of every shinobi in every hidden village thinking of a shinobi from another village as the strongest is just too absurded to be truth.Some villagers in Konoha might have thought that way, but I doubt there was even a consensus there.



Actually, it was stated Hiruzen knew 1000 illusions (genjutsu) and he knew all the jutsus in the Konoha.But you have to take into account that knowing a jutsu, and being able to used a jutsu is two different things.Hiruzen could have known tsukuyomi, but he doesn't have a sharingan and is not an Uchiha so he could never use it in battle.The same can be said for all Kekkei Genkai sand specialty jutsu of specific clans.Furthermore, Kakashi also stated no shinobi in history could used every nature type jutsu.We only saw Hiruzen used Fire and Earth, so if we were to assume the statement of Hiruzen knowing all the jutsu in the village as , Hiruzen could used all the jutsu in the village then either there weren't any water, lightning , or wind types in Konoha, or hiruzen was secretly the only shinobi in history able to used every single nature element without a rinnegan.Also, there can be that many powerful jutsu in the world yet alone one village for Hiruzen to learn, so a large majority of those jutsu would have had to be E-rank, D-Rank, and C-Rank which would be from academy level to chunin.

it says he is a master of 1000 genjutsu

and orochimaru;s exact words were- you knew and could perform all existing konoha jutsu, don't disappoint me

 

[~Uzumaki~]

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there is this , as well as the databook inputs from kishi, saying he was reknown as the strongest hokage,

also kabuto states it was widely said that he was the strongest of the 5 kages

that is no longer the opinion of 1 man in the manga.. that is numerous people, in konoha and out

i'm gonna need to see some jutsu to believe this, Hashi was called the greatest of his time and nobody saw him as much till Madara showed his jutsu, and for a master of 1000 genjutsu he was beaten with one of Hashi's
genjutsu, he and Onoki are the same age but Onoki can obliterate him

 

[MadaraHashirama]

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there is this , as well as the databook inputs from kishi, saying he was reknown as the strongest hokage,

also kabuto states it was widely said that he was the strongest of the 5 kages

that is no longer the opinion of 1 man in the manga.. that is numerous people, in konoha and out

All you are doing is copying everything Ryuu said and jumping on Hiruzen's bandwagon, but it's the likes of you that the moment a strong character comes in you jump on his bandwagon, just like how Hashirama will become yours and tons of more people's favorite character because of the flashback and the hype he's going to get.
Hashirama > Hiruzen
Every Hokage has some glimpses of their power, even Tsunade lately but what glimpses did Hiruzen have? Being a dumb ignorant old shit that thinks that he can stop a Edo-Tensei while the Edo Tensei just failed "Good I was be able to stop the third one."
A person so dumb like that are the ones that go cry in a corner if they don't get the title they don't deserve.
Intelligence 5? Pf, I'd say Intelligence -1

Tobi is probably older then Hiruzen look at his wrinkles and listen to his voice, but yet he's the one owning everything up, Danzo was even older then Hiruzen but he was fighting a Main Character without any problems.
Woops did I forgot to mention Onoki? Onoki was alive before Hiruzen, he was alive even when Madara was still in Konoha, when Madara hasn't even fought Hashirama, and who is the most useful guy in battle now? Onoki is the most useful of all the Kages and his age, not to mention Deidara said hes become much faster even though he's much older.

Hiruzen = Old bag of shit who can't even fight against his own age.

 

[GodaimeRaikage]

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there is this , as well as the databook inputs from kishi, saying he was reknown as the strongest hokage,

also kabuto states it was widely said that he was the strongest of the 5 kages

that is no longer the opinion of 1 man in the manga.. that is numerous people, in konoha and out

Too many shinobis not listed in the databooks at all for it to be taken into account for such a debate.What is Hashirama databook rankings and input.What about Tobirama?Minato?Onoki? Third Raikage? The list goes on.


Numerous people said he was the strongest kage, but who are these numerous people?What village are they from? What do they know of the power of all the leaders and kages of every village?You get my point? These opinion can't be substantial because we don't know who made them, what they know about each shinobi, and where are they from.For all we know none of these people ever seen the power of any of the kages.They some are all could have base their opinions on events that affected them.For examples , Hiruzen could have beaten someone from lets say the Hidden Water Fall village who the villagers there consider the strongest shinobi and they could have just assume he was the strongest because of their own bias belief that the shinobi from their village was the stronges.This would spread the rumor around to other places that he was the strongest.But, the same can be said if a shinobi from the Cloud Village who was consider the strongest lost ot a shinobi from the Mist Village who by his villagers was consider the strongest.That mist village would automatic be consider the strongest in the eyes of Cloud Shinobis who thought their shinobi was the strongest.


Without any real detail into who are the people who thought Hiruzen was the strongest, their knowledge of all the kage powers, and where they were from, the only unbias way to cut through the hype is to used actual skills and power.

 

[Owarij]

All you are doing is copying everything Ryuu said and jumping on Hiruzen's bandwagon, but it's the likes of you that the moment a strong character comes in you jump on his bandwagon, just like how Hashirama will become yours and tons of more people's favorite character because of the flashback and the hype he's going to get.
Hashirama > Hiruzen
Every Hokage has some glimpses of their power, even Tsunade lately but what glimpses did Hiruzen have? Being a dumb ignorant old shit that thinks that he can stop a Edo-Tensei while the Edo Tensei just failed "Good I was be able to stop the third one."
A person so dumb like that are the ones that go cry in a corner if they don't get the title they don't deserve.
Intelligence 5? Pf, I'd say Intelligence -1

Tobi is probably older then Hiruzen look at his wrinkles and listen to his voice, but yet he's the one owning everything up, Danzo was even older then Hiruzen but he was fighting a Main Character without any problems.

bandwagon? likes of me? do you know what that means??

if i was a bandwagonist, when the new hashirama hype came in i would have been on hashirama's side you idiot, the fact that i am still backing up hiruzen shows the opposite, please learn the definition of words before you use them , kk?

i'm gonna need to see some jutsu to believe this, Hashi was called the greatest of his time and nobody saw him as much till Madara showed his jutsu, and for a master of 1000 genjutsu he was beaten with one of Hashi's
genjutsu, he and Onoki are the same age but Onoki can obliterate him

according to kabuto, and other ninjas of the world

hiruzen > oonoki

you can't possibly know what hiruzen had, when you know only 4 of his thousands of jutsu

Too many shinobis not listed in the databooks at all for it to be taken into account for such a debate.What is Hashirama databook rankings and input.What about Tobirama?Minato?Onoki? Third Raikage? The list goes on.


Numerous people said he was the strongest kage, but who are these numerous people?What village are they from? What do they know of the power of all the leaders and kages of every village?You get my point? These opinion can't be substantial because we don't know who made them, what they know about each shinobi, and where are they from.For all we know none of these people ever seen the power of any of the kages.They some are all could have base their opinions on events that affected them.For examples , Hiruzen could have beaten someone from lets say the Hidden Water Fall village who the villagers there consider the strongest shinobi and they could have just assume he was the strongest because of their own bias belief that the shinobi from their village was the stronges.This would spread the rumor around to other places that he was the strongest.But, the same can be said if a shinobi from the Cloud Village who was consider the strongest lost ot a shinobi from the Mist Village who by his villagers was consider the strongest.That mist village would automatic be consider the strongest in the eyes of Cloud Shinobis who thought their shinobi was the strongest.


Without any real detail into who are the people who thought Hiruzen was the strongest, their knowledge of all the kage powers, and where they were from, the only unbias way to cut through the hype is to used actual skills and power.

1) The hype giving by iruka, a and databooks, about being the strongest hokage, was ONLY based on konoha ninja... how would another village know about the full history of konohas hokage and their power? there are ninjas and people in the village who have lived since the time of the first... and according to kishi, databooks and iruka, hiruzen is still praised as the strongest one


2) the Hype kabuto gave, being the strongest KAGE, was worldwide ... he was considered the strongest of the 5 kages. ( well orochimaru killed the fourth kazekage)

 

[MadaraHashirama]

bandwagon? likes of me? do you know what that means??

if i was a bandwagonist, when the new hashirama hype came in i would have been on hashirama's side you idiot, the fact that i am still backing up hiruzen shows the opposite, please learn the definition of words before you use them , kk?

Is that all you can say to counter? The problem your not on Hashirama's side just yet is because of how Ryuu convinced you that Hiruzen is the strongest Hokage.

BTW
Woops did I forgot to mention Onoki? Onoki was alive before Hiruzen, he was alive even when Madara was still in Konoha, when Madara hasn't even fought Hashirama, and who is the most useful guy in battle now? Onoki is the most useful of all the Kages and his age, not to mention Deidara said hes become much faster even though he's much older.

Hiruzen = Old bag of shit who can't even fight against his own age

 

[siyo]

i'm gonna need to see some jutsu to believe this, Hashi was called the greatest of his time and nobody saw him as much till Madara showed his jutsu, and for a master of 1000 genjutsu he was beaten with one of Hashi's
genjutsu, he and Onoki are the same age but Onoki can obliterate him

This is the problem with the majority of this forum ( not directed just to you).If you have a problem with Kishi's words you can always complain to his office or simly stop reading the manga however you can't deny canon simply because a person is lacking feats.The whole point of hype is to give an author a tool to give out information about certain characters so he won't have to show it all.In essense you will never win an argumenet if you don't believe the author and you can only hope that he retcon said statements.Feats are not necessarily more important than hype they just make it easier to believe, even though feats can be subjective too. Also nobody would dare say that sakura is stronger than sakumo simply because he lacks feats.

 

[Owarij]

Is that all you can say to counter? The problem your not on Hashirama's side just yet is because of how Ryuu convinced you that Hiruzen is the strongest Hokage.

BTW
Woops did I forgot to mention Onoki? Onoki was alive before Hiruzen, he was alive even when Madara was still in Konoha, when Madara hasn't even fought Hashirama, and who is the most useful guy in battle now? Onoki is the most useful of all the Kages and his age, not to mention Deidara said hes become much faster even though he's much older.

Hiruzen = Old bag of shit who can't even fight against his own age

ryuu convinced me that hiruzen was the strongest hokage? you have NO idea what you're talking about, and how long iv'e backed up hiruzen

This is the problem with the majority of this forum ( not directed just to you).If you have a problem with Kishi's words you can always complain to his office or simly stop reading the manga however you can't deny canon simply because a person is lacking feats.The whole point of hype is to give an author a tool to give out information about certain characters so he won't have to show it all.In essense you will never win an argumenet if you don't believe the author and you can only hope that he retcon aid statements.Feats are not necessarily more important than hype they just make it easier to believe, even though feats can be subjective too. Also nobody would dare say that saskur ais stronger than sakumo simply because he lacks feats.

lmao exactly what i'm saying, how can you disagree with the author and his manga which he wrote.. he clearly stated these things,

and most of them are so hypocritical , they pick and choose which hype they like, and disregard others, noone would dare say that tenten can beat sakumo.... not after minato called him a genius bla bla, not after random ninja shat bricks when they heard his name...

no they won't say tenten is stronger... but they completely disregard hiruzen's hype why?
"kishi changed his mind"
total and absolute bs..

 

[GodaimeRaikage]

it says he is a master of 1000 genjutsu

and orochimaru;s exact words were- you knew and could perform all existing konoha jutsu, don't disappoint me

Again, know matter what Orochimaru said that is impossible.How could Hiruzen perform every element jutsu without a rinnegan or using the killed shinobis with different chakra natures like Kakuzu and eat their hearts?How would hiruzen perform Gentle Fist of the Hyuga Clan without a Byakugan? How would he perform the genjutsu of the Uchiha Clan with a Sharingan? How would he use the techniques of the Nara clan and Akimichi Clan? How would Hiruzen used Kekkei Genkai of specific clans that you have to be genetically born with to used?

Sorry, but base on the facts that statement is simply not true.

This is the problem with the majority of this forum ( not directed just to you).If you have a problem with Kishi's words you can always complain to his office or simly stop reading the manga however you can't deny canon simply because a person is lacking feats.The whole point of hype is to give an author a tool to give out information about certain characters so he won't have to show it all.In essense you will never win an argumenet if you don't believe the author and you can only hope that he retcon aid statements.Feats are not necessarily more important than hype they just make it easier to believe, even though feats can be subjective too. Also nobody would dare say that saskur ais stronger than sakumo simply because he lacks feats.

The problem with this logic is author change their minds,and contradict previous written statement(Star Wars anyone) which Kishi has done.

Edit:And I think a lot of people would say Sasuke is stronger than Sakumo because they don't know anything about the White Fang.If you don't believe me simply make a Sasuke versus White Fang thread and see who wins.

 

[Langaz]

Not going to dispute with the data book or anything I think that's pretty hard to argue against.

What I do find interesting though, is that people seem to take what characters have said as fact rather than their opinion. This character said this, that charater said that... That does not make it true.

This undermines the OP's use of quoting of Jiraiya to an extent as that is only Jiraiya's opinion.
Of course, on the flip side, where it is most effective, everyone seems to take Kabuto's words on the first Hokage as fact. But really, Kabuto? How is he in any way trustworthy for what he says? Even Itachi (yes, this does contradict what I'm saying :sy says that Kabuto is a better liar than he is - which is quite a compliment (to a ninja xd). At least Jiraiya is somewhat trustworthy, but then again he never saw Harashima's talent either did he?

Anyway, what I'm getting at is that you can't always believe what characters say of others to be true. Because Hiruzen was "said" to be or "called" the strongest Hokage does not make him the strongest Hokage; it's just how people view him.

Another thing that I think needs to be brought up is that the era does somewhat have an effect. Some might not like this example but many say Bradman was the best cricketer in history based on his performance. Yet, this doesn't take into account the competition of his day - the bowlers that say, Tendulkar faces, may be far better than what Bradman faced. So person xx may be seen as the strongest because no one ever defeated them. This is why what characters say about others cannot necessarily be treated as fact.

All in all, I think that the data booklet can't be overlooked as mere opinion (at least, in the parts where it doesn't mention what he was "called" etc) so I think that the best evidence still lies with Hiruzen being the strongest Hokage. The only real facts I see are places where Kishi himself, not another character, states something. Not, when another character said or believed something.

I think what I said is right feel free to correct me though if I'm wrong anywhere.

 

[sage1999]

Harashimaru might have made the wood release but minato could easily avoid them and attack him using flying thunder god technique. hiruzen was considered to be a god. then there is tobimaru and tsunade. tobimaru was the strongest water user but tsunade was practically invulnerable due to her ninjutsu.

 

[Owarij]

Again, know matter what Orochimaru said that is impossible.How could Hiruzen perform every element jutsu without a rinnegan or using the killed shinobis with different chakra natures like Kakuzu and eat their hearts?How would hiruzen perform Gentle Fist of the Hyuga Clan without a Byakugan? How would he perform the genjutsu of the Uchiha Clan with a Sharingan? How would he use the techniques of the Nara clan and Akimichi Clan? How would Hiruzen used Kekkei Genkai of specific clans that you have to be genetically born with to used?

Sorry, but base on the facts that statement is simply not true.




The problem with this logic is author change their minds,and contradict previous written statement(see Star Wars) which Kishi has done.

1) read orochimaru's statement over, firstly, he spoke in past tense, meaning hiruzen was at one time able to do it..
and you do know the history of konoha? Those HIDEN techniques can be taught to anyone,. they are not kkg, and they were once taught to everyone .. at one point in the history the clans decided to keep their techs to themselves, and teach them to their sons and daughters etc.... those are not kkg... and wind is not a common element is konoha


gentle fist does not require byakugan... byakugan is just used for the seeing of the chakra points.. Gentle fist is simply letting out chakra in the palm of your hand, that block the chakra points... in esscence , learning gentle fist without having byakugan would be a waste ..


i'm still waiting for any person who was just backing up hashirama, to come list me the ninjas who were on his level that aren't around anymore -_-

 

[Ryuu..]

MadaraHashirama you keep using opinion. You keep disregarding what the manga says. Hiruzen an old piece of sh*t? This is why I don't rate any of your responses.

You seem like a Hashirama fanboy, just remembered what your name is.