Yes or No. Minato can warp away the susanoo/or user

[The Necromancer]

@ Bold: Then expand as to why Minato can warp an object despite not being in physical contact with it nor it having a tag and why The User being physically and chakra wise capable to separate from Susano'o yet the structure remains isn't a sure certainty that Minato cannot warp the user by touching the Susano'o.





By canonical definition, Space-time ninjutsu allows one by what ever method (Kamui,Hirashin, Kuchiyose, Amenotijikara, Amenominaka, ect.) to move themselves or an object into a subspace similar to the Einstein rose bridge; that is, a hypothetical space–time continuum at a speed faster than that of light.

Kakashi warping Gamabunta from Mount Myōboku to Konoha with Kamui is the very same thing as Naruto Summoning Gamabunta from Mount Myōboku to Konoha via a Kuchiyose. It's the same affect produced by different methods.


Yata speaks for itself, Not susano'o and Itachi. The shield may not be warped but If Minato Touches Itachi's Susano'o he should be able to warp Itachi from the Susano'o for reasons already stated in this thread. ​

@Bold. Only if you believe FTG can be used to split physical entities into fractions.

If Susano'o is the Ocean, and Sasuke's bodily chakra is a stream into the Ocean, you're telling me FTG can magically differentiate between Ocean water and Stream water.

To believe Susano'o can be severed from the main chakra network is to believe that physical objects such as limbs can be severed from the rest of the body. Which is entirely possible, but not with FTG.

It's a property of Susano'o. There was never a ground rule stated that Susano'o cannot be controlled unless the user is both physically connected to and connected to it chakra wise. Oh wait, I just showed you a scan of Madara doing exactly that. ​

And I just showed you two scans of Susano'o operating exactly as I have explained it.

Clearly weaponry acts on a different set of rules, otherwise you're simply claiming a direct contradiction to the manga.

 

[NarutoX28]

Susano'o is the manifestation of the user's chakra and is connected to the user as one system, so I don't agree with the idea that Susano'o could simply be warped away.

 

[Waltz]

@Bold. Only if you believe FTG can be used to split physical entities into fractions.

If Susano'o is the Ocean, and Sasuke's bodily chakra is a stream into the Ocean, you're telling me FTG can magically differentiate between Ocean water and Stream water.

To believe Susano'o can be severed from the main chakra network is to believe that physical objects such as limbs can be severed from the rest of the body.

Susano'o weapons have never worked on this principal. Arrows and thrown weapons are created separately by a different process.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

^ Susano'o dematerializing after being physically severed from its power source. Something FTG cannot do on its own.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

^ Susano'o dematerializing after its power source was destroyed. Notice how Amaterasu was not extinguished after Itachi died. Remember how Hiruzen's Doton Wall did not crumble after his death. They were self-sustained. Unlike Susano'o.

Nope. Susano'o and it's weapons are created from the very same material and sources this material from the users chakra just as in your example, the water in the ocean is created from the same stream. You showed me 2 scans of Susano'o dematerializing because it was no long being supplied chakra from the user just as Susano'o weapons dematerialize after use and leaving the actual body of Susno'o. However if Madara can manually control his Susano'o weapons despite it not being in direct contact with this source and leaving the body of chakra you claim is mandatory for use, then it means it is not Mandatory and the parts of the ocean can now function on it's own despite not being in contact with the actual stream. ​

And I just showed you two scans of Susano'o operating exactly as I have explained it.

Clearly weaponry acts on a different set of rules, otherwise you're simply claiming a direct contradiction to the manga.

The weapons never followed a different set of rules because just like the main body of Susano'o, they eventually evaporate into nothingness. ​

 

[The Necromancer]

Nope. Susano'o and it's weapons are created from the very same material and sources this material from the users chakra just as in your example, the water in the ocean is created from the same stream. You showed me 2 scans of Susano'o dematerializing because it was no long being supplied chakra from the user just as Susano'o weapons dematerialize after use and leaving the actual body of Susno'o. However if Madara can manually control his Susano'o weapons despite it not being in direct contact with this source and leaving the body of chakra you claim is mandatory for use, then it means it is not Mandatory and the parts of the ocean can now function on it's own despite not being in contact with the actual stream. ​

All you're doing is implying a direct contradiction instead of rationally believing that they should clearly function differently. Which only scores you a tie at the very most, as both rationales cancel each other out.

Occam's Razor, bro.

Prove to me, without blindly crying contradiction, that Susano'o is a self-sustaining construct completely independent from the user's chakra flow, or don't respond again.

 

[LoZelda101]

This thread... -_-

Minato can not teleport a user from inside their Susanoo unless that user is already marked. That's obvious.

Minato can not Reverse Summon a Susanoo. Because Susanoo is Manifested not Summoned.

If he Marks a Susanoo he could probably Teleport it away.(Unless it is Itachi's Susanoo or a Perfect Susanoo that can Fly and evade being marked)

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

I thought you needed a contract to be able to reverse summon which he doesn't, so this had to of been FTG he used on kurama without actually touching/tagging him. he even warped the blast as well.

 

[Waltz]

All you're doing is implying a direct contradiction instead of rationally believing that they should clearly function differently. Which only scores you a tie at the very most, as both rationales cancel each other out.

Occam's Razor, bro.

Prove to me, without blindly crying contradiction, that Susano'o is a self-sustaining construct completely independent from the user's chakra flow, or don't respond again.

Eh, confirmation bias much?... as you're solely focusing on evidence that supports what you and those who share the same opinion already believe while ignoring evidence that refutes your beliefs. The claim that Susano'o weapons follow an alternate set of rules to the actual Susano'o itself to seemingly validate the idea that the weapons are self sustaining while the Susano'o itself is not, was made by you----unproven----but made by you. I am saying to you that just as Susano'o remains periodically and eventually evaporates while no longer being supplied with Chakra from the user, the weapons also remain periodically and evaporate after being used for an attack; however Madara demonstrated that it is actually possible to manipulate portions of Susano'o that are not being directly supplied with chakra which rationally say's that the chakra between user and Susano'o----As Susano'o and it's weapons are composed of the same material formed by the users chakra----can be segregated and opens the window for Minato being capable of the feat.

However, If you prefer to disagree to agree...no worries m8. ​

 

[The Necromancer]

Eh, confirmation bias much?... as you're solely focusing on evidence that supports what you and those who share the same opinion already believe while ignoring evidence that refutes your beliefs. The claim that Susano'o weapons follow an alternate set of rules to the actual Susano'o itself to seemingly validate the idea that the weapons are self sustaining while the Susano'o itself is not, was made by you----unproven----but made by you. I am saying to you that just as Susano'o remains periodically and eventually evaporates while no longer being supplied with Chakra from the user, the weapons also remain periodically and evaporate after being used for an attack; however Madara demonstrated that it is actually possible to manipulate portions of Susano'o that are not being directly supplied with chakra which rationally say's that the chakra between user and Susano'o----As Susano'o and it's weapons are composed of the same material formed by the users chakra----can be segregated and opens the window for Minato being capable of the feat.

However, If you prefer to disagree to agree...no worries m8. ​

Ah. I understand now.

But there is no way to exert any modicum of force or control without a connection. And in the Narutoverse connections are formed by chakra 99% of the time.

So to assume Madara has some magical form of control over a physical object without having a chakra connection to it is foolish. As you have affirmed that you believe they work in the same manner, you must also conclude that they are connected in the same manner, rather than forming some alternate, unproven, unknown, invisible theory as to his form of control.

We already know chakra connections solve every problem here and answer every question here, so why hypothesize that there is some alternate form of energy which is used in Madara's situation?

Once again, I'll direct you to Occam's Razor.

 

[Waltz]

Ah. I understand now.

But there is no way to exert any modicum of force or control without a connection. And in the Narutoverse connections are formed by chakra 99% of the time.

So to assume Madara has some magical form of control over a physical object without having a chakra connection to it is foolish. As you have affirmed that you believe they work in the same manner, you must also conclude that they are connected in the same manner, rather than forming some alternate, unproven, unknown, invisible theory as to his form of control.

We already know chakra connections solve every problem here and answer every question here, so why hypothesize that there is some alternate form of energy which is used in Madara's situation?

Once again, I'll direct you to Occam's Razor.

Unless it's a Mangekyo ability or property of Susano'o; then it is no longer foolish nor magical but it is then foolish to dismiss the idea especially when it wasn't the first time the accomplishment had been made:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

^ Madara alters the trajectory from upwards to downwards forcing Hashirama to use the Rashomon.
​

 

[LoZelda101]

Susano'o is the manifestation of the user's chakra and is connected to the user as one system, so I don't agree with the idea that Susano'o could simply be warped away.

alright. so unless the user is already tagged they cannot be S/T out of their susanoo because the susanoo is their own unsustainable chakra.

 

[The Necromancer]

alright. so unless the user is already tagged they cannot be S/T out of their susanoo because the susanoo is their own unsustainable chakra.

Well if this theory is correct, even that wouldn't work. Tagging and warping Susano'o would warp the user, and tagging and warping the user would warp Susano'o.

You have to physically split them apart first.

Unless it's a Mangekyo ability or property of Susano'o; then it is no longer foolish nor magical but it is then foolish to dismiss the idea especially when it wasn't the first time the accomplishment had been made:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

^ Madara alters the trajectory from upwards to downwards forcing Hashirama to use the Rashomon.
​

This does not dismiss the fact that it requires a connection to accomplish.

The Mangekyou and Rinnegan abilities still work on a system of rules, and those rules state that chakra accomplishes everything. Even if it is a property of the MS, EMS, or Rinnegan, it still requires a chakra connection to function.

Face it, the only way to answer "how?" is to either admit that a chakra connection was made (which proves me right), or to hypothesize some other form of force or energy to accomplish this goal (which is inherently ignorant).

Nothing in the Narutoverse works, "just because."

 

[LoZelda101]

Well if this theory is correct, even that wouldn't work. Tagging and warping Susano'o would warp the user, and tagging and warping the user would warp Susano'o.

You have to physically split them apart first.



This does not dismiss the fact that it requires a connection to accomplish.

The Mangekyou and Rinnegan abilities still work on a system of rules, and those rules state that chakra accomplishes everything. Even if it is a property of the MS, EMS, or Rinnegan, it still requires a chakra connection to function.

Face it, the only way to answer "how?" is to either admit that a chakra connection was made (which proves me right), or to hypothesize some other form of force or energy to accomplish this goal (which is inherently ignorant).

Nothing in the Narutoverse works, "just because."

does that same rule apply to sasuke's ameno? on himself and his opponent.

 

[Waltz]

This does not dismiss the fact that it requires a connection to accomplish.

The Mangekyou and Rinnegan abilities still work on a system of rules, and those rules state that chakra accomplishes everything. Even if it is a property of the MS, EMS, or Rinnegan, it still requires a chakra connection to function.

Face it, the only way to answer "how?" is to either admit that a chakra connection was made (which proves me right), or to hypothesize some other form of force or energy to accomplish this goal (which is inherently ignorant).

Nothing in the Narutoverse works, "just because."

Nope. Chakra accomplishing everything does not mean a property of a Doujutsu or a part-jutsu like Susano'o and it's anchoring functions must always require a chakra connection to function because at the expense of Chakra an effect can be brought about through the eyes and this is why there are eye techniques such as Kamui or Amenotijikara, which is space-time curvature----it's not chakra and can't be absorbed----it's space time curvature. The eye utilizes Chakra to produce an effect that may or may not require a chakra connection to function. Thus meaning you're wrong for generalizing douryoku's so hastily.. ​

 

[The Necromancer]

Nope. Chakra accomplishing everything does not mean a property of a Doujutsu or a part-jutsu like Susano'o and it's anchoring functions must always require a chakra connection to function because at the expense of Chakra an effect can be brought about through the eyes and this is why there are eye techniques such as Kamui or Amenotijikara, which is space-time curvature----it's not chakra and can't be absorbed----it's space time curvature. The eye utilizes Chakra to produce an effect that may or may not require a chakra connection to function. Thus meaning you're wrong for generalizing douryoku's so hastily.. ​

If you actually believe this then there's nothing more I can say to convince you otherwise. Seems we're done here.

does that same rule apply to sasuke's ameno? on himself and his opponent.

Logically. We've only seen him swap entities, almost exactly as FTG works, just without the tag.

The only S/T we've seen that can harm people directly is Kamui, and it doesn't operate in the same as as other Summoning Jutsus, Amenotejikara, or FTG.

 

[Waltz]

If you actually believe this then there's nothing more I can say to convince you otherwise. Seems we're done here.

Sure and lastly let me also just solidify why you are wrong from your own arguments self contradictory. You are saying that Madara can establish a chakra connection between the Susano'o blade he was controlling at least 75ft away yet he could not maintain a chakra connection with his Susano'o 10 ft away after being dragged out by Gaara. You are saying that if it is indeed a Mangekyo property or a property of Susano'o itself that throughout the manga; Susano'o users who left Susano'o were, without reason, unable to maintain Susano'o despite being able to form such connections and that it never made sense for the users to be in the center of Susano'o to begin with because they could have controlled it and portions of it from even the outside given the connections you deem mandatory as, and I'll quote:

The Mangekyou and Rinnegan abilities still work on a system of rules, and those rules state that chakra accomplishes everything. Even if it is a property of the MS, EMS, or Rinnegan, it still requires a chakra connection to function.

​

 

[The Necromancer]

Sure and lastly let me also just solidify why you are wrong from your own arguments self contradictory. You are saying that Madara can establish a chakra connection between the Susano'o blade he was controlling at least 75ft away yet he could not maintain a chakra connection with his Susano'o 10 ft away after being dragged out by Gaara. You are saying that if it is indeed a Mangekyo property or a property of Susano'o itself that throughout the manga; Susano'o users who left Susano'o were, without reason, unable to maintain Susano'o despite being able to form such connections and that it never made sense for the users to be in the center of Susano'o to begin with because they could have controlled it and portions of it from even the outside given the connections you deem mandatory as, and I'll quote:

​

​

Yes. It's still 100% more valid than assuming an unknown and entirely new physical law is imposed within the already established rules of the manga.

Everything you've said can be answered with "Chakra connection" yet you continue to try to create entirely new forms of energy that have never been hinted at in the manga.

The answer is already here. Stop trying to create your own. Occam's Razor.

As for that specific example, Madara was removed from Susano'o unexpectedly and very quickly, so creating a new chakra leash after being physically severed was out of the question, which is why he resorted to Preta Path instead of even more simply reforming Susano'o. When throwing his Susnao'o knife, he had intent, preparation time, and an already established Chakra Construct as a medium.

 

[Waltz]

Yes. It's still 100% more valid than assuming an unknown and entirely new physical law is imposed within the already established rules of the manga.

Everything you've said can be answered with "Chakra connection" yet you continue to try to create entirely new forms of energy that have never been hinted at in the manga.

The answer is already here. Stop trying to create your own. Occam's Razor.

Yeah. I honestly rather believe that it's a Mangekyo property that doesn't require a chakra connection than to believe that Susano'o users can plausibly form multiple Susano-o's within whatever distance and plausibly control them all from the outside via some chakra connection or to believe that for all 700+ Chapters Susano'o users simply did not use the connection you're assuming they have to their advantage by controlling Susano'o and it's weapons from the outside and lastly, since Madara actually made the Susano'o blade go further than the Shukaku's arm denoting these chakra connections can be stretched, that it made 0 sense for Madara's Susano'o to evaproate after Gaara took him out of it since the chakra connections between user and Susano'o where Madara is concerned are elastic-like and stretchy for distances over 75ft. ​

 

[The Necromancer]

Yeah. I honestly rather believe that it's a Mangekyo property that doesn't require a chakra connection than to believe that Susano'o users can plausibly form multiple Susano-o's within whatever distance and plausibly control them all from the outside via some chakra connection or to believe that for all 700+ Chapters Susano'o users simply did not use the connection you're assuming they have to their advantage by controlling Susano'o and it's weapons from the outside and lastly, since Madara actually made the Susano'o blade go further than the Shukaku's arm denoting these chakra connections can be stretched, that it made 0 sense for Madara's Susano'o to evaproate after Gaara took him out of it since the chakra connections between user and Susano'o where Madara is concerned are elastic-like and stretchy for distances over 75ft. ​

1. Read my edit.
2. Why would anyone want to fight outside of their nearly impenetrable shield?
3. That would require vastly more chakra and control to pull off, with little gain.

I can't sanely debate someone who would rather create their own set of rules and physics when there is already an answer to their every question presented in the manga, so I'll be taking my leave until you provide manga supported evidence.

 

[Waltz]

As for that specific example, Madara was removed from Susano'o unexpectedly and very quickly, so creating a new chakra leash after being physically severed was out of the question, which is why he resorted to Preta Path instead of even more simply reforming Susano'o. When throwing his Susnao'o knife, he had intent, preparation time, and an already established Chakra Construct as a medium.

Hmm.. the thing is the leash being broken doesn't make any sense based on your proposition when according to it Madara's connection to Susano'o should at least be the distance between his standing point here:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

and here:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

With room for elasticity.


If he was indeed caught off guard then you're now denoting the minimal length of this chakra connection with nothing but bare assumption. What's the logical reasoning behind it as it naturally being capable of stretching more or less negates the "being caught by surprise" argument. ​

 

[The Necromancer]

Hmm.. the thing is the leash being broken doesn't make any sense based on your proposition when according to it Madara's connection to Susano'o should at least be the distance between his standing point here:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

and here:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

With room for elasticity.


If he was indeed caught off guard then you're now denoting the minimal length of this chakra connection with nothing but bare assumption. What's the logical reasoning behind it as it naturally being capable of stretching more or less negates the "being caught by surprise" argument. ​

:sigh: A chakra tether is not created unless it is willed to be created. Why would Madara create a separate connection to himself when he is already connected by every cell of his being?

He was physically forced away from his construct, and was removed so quickly that no efforts to create a new Susano'o could even be made, which is why he was forced into using Preta Path.

As I said, I cannot fathom debating someone who would rather create their own laws of physics than accept the answers that already fit the given situations. You are asserting a premise incomprehensible to the human mind, that a force exists without a force existing. That an object can be put into motion without a force being applied. That is why your theory is wrong. This is the end.

Spoiler

inb4 "there is a force just not a chakra force." Because so many of those exist in this manga.

 

[Warlocks]

if he marked the user than yes otherwise no